Indian Muslims

Re: # 375

Aisha Behen,

Musaliyon ko Bharat Varsh me ahle-hanud (Farsi meaning blackguard or thief) bahut tang kar rahe hein. Bharat varsha ko Dar-ul-Harab banakar sare musaliyon ko hijrat karvakar kar Pakistan le jayen.

Regards
Sanatani

INSTEAD OF BICKERING ABT THE GOOGLE THAT`S SHOWING MIRROR TO US, LETS HEAR FROM HORSE MOUTH I.E WORLD ECONOMIC FORUM ABT OURSELVES.

Source:

http://www.weforum.org/en/initiatives/gcp/Global%20Competitiveness%20Report/index.htm

Comparative statistics for India, Pakistan and China:

(These ranks are of the member countries of WEF’s 125 countries).

OVERALL GLOBAL COMPETITIVENESS FOR 2006-07

INDIA (43) - PAKISTAN (91) - CHINA (54).

These follwing parameters wud determine our medium as well as long-term outlooks for the respective countries.

Parameter Rank
(Indian-Pakistan-China)

Institutions 34-79-80
Infrastructure 62-67-60

Macroeconomy 88-86-6

Health & Primary Education 93-108-55



Higher Education & Training 49-104-77


Market Efficiency 21-54-56

Technological Readiness 55-89-75

Business Sophistication 25-66-65

Innovation 26-60-46


Anybody who`s familiar with management education wud know that Michael Porter is to Marketing as Newton is to Physics. This is what he said this year at Davos:

``INDIA, says Michael E. Porter, a Harvard Business School professor and expert on competitiveness. China is exporting massively, but ``it`s still adding relatively little value,`` he says. Moreover, China`s companies tend not to be very profitable, and there is a dearth of Chinese brands. By contrast, ``India is further along in building a productive business environment,`` Porter said. ``It has talented high-end people with deep expertise in IT, software, pharmaceuticals. It has the opportunity to go much further.``

(source: http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/printout/0,13155,901060206-1154161,00.html)

My own observation as a student of economics is that India can outpace China in the long run as we are ranked behind them ONLY in Health and primary Education. Mind u that we are just bad as China in infrastructure in terms of ranking but not that bad as it was imagined. INDIA IS AHEAD OF CHINA (FORGET ABT THE FORSAKEN BROTHER PAKISTAN) IN ALL PARAMETERS OF LONG TERM GROWTH.

Instead of taking pride in India, the forsaken brothers, the Pakistanis - like the legeanday Mir Jaffer did - bat for Chinese and spike Indians.

muslims are backward in Englsand too....or anywhere else....it is time for them to change....instead of creating such cesspool where they are encouraged to breed

Why is it that when someone writes a piece instead of disagreeing logically we prefer to attack the person and his/her credentials or personality.

For a change read the article dispassionately and then argue....

Personally I agree with Aparna`s views and I think it takes a lot of guts as a person, and especially as an Indian (and that too a Indian Hindu) to write what she has written.

Keep it up!!!

http://www.afmi.org/

while we are rightfully concerned about developmental status of indian muslims from lower economic backgrouds, we should also be concerned about the same from pakistan and china, more so in china, because they are not ruled by muslims. since the chinese chief is coming to islamabad, i am sure there will be strong protests lamenting abysimal developmental level of hui and uighur muslim minorities AND religious opression. power to those protesters, who are doing this even if china is developing the paki Gudadwar.

Romair,

(yet i have worked with indian sikhs and christians, quite often, but never end up running into indian muslims....... )

Most Indian Sikh and Christian communities are a fairly well-educated and prosperous communities ( at least by Indian standards) and you would find a fairly large number of them in most organisations in India as well among NRIs. Indian Muslims are by and large drawn from illiterate and backward communities and so you would find very few of them even in Indian corporates. But again even among Muslims you would come across certain communities such as Bohras who have done very well. For instance, Premji (WIPRO), Khorakiwalas (WOCKHARDT) and Hamied (CIPLA).

(shameless hindu, who is killing Muslims in the north and razing their mosques in the south, )

Don`t worry the horrible Hanud will get you in Pakistan too, in Bajaur for example.

Regards

Re:simon_templar#466

[..But I have to credit the shameless hindu, who is killing Muslims
in the north and razing their mosques in the south, but still trying
to discredit the 2-Nation Theory!. ....]

Sirjee, go easy on the drugs that you are smoking. Who the hell is killing muslims in the north and razing mosques in the south? Do you have any proof or are you just barfing on the internet?

Have you heard of Pres. Abdul Kalam, Shahrukh Khan and Azim Premjee? They are the top people in Indian Politics, Indian Cinema and Indian Business (Chairman of Wipro) and they are all muslims.

It is people like you who have no information about reality that have caused so much grief and violence in the subcontinent. People like you fueled the Two Nation Theory whose carcinogenic effects are visible to this day. People like you create mindless paranoia and whip people into a frenzy of hatred, triggering communal violence and bloody partitions. Shame on you!!

#466 by Simon_Templar

[All of it has come to pass and then some: the institutional racism,
the cultural segregation, the frequent massacres and orgies of
everyday murder, rape and beatings. The depiction in media of
a Muslim is far worse than of blacks under slavery in the west.
The indian Muslim is paying the rent for those of us, who were
lucky to migrate to Pakistan. ]

Dear Simon,

Why can`t the rest of your brothers and sisters in India be so lucky? Why don`t they start walking westward? It`s not worth it, living like this, in India.

You are a true Muslim. Like your brothers Tahmed, HP, Mantolives etc. One can only hope that Hindus, Christians, and the rest of them can learn the true meaning of compassion and peace that is but second nature for you Muslims. And Muhammad started it all with his divine and compassionate ways. Kind of like Buddha, only FAR better.

And the sooner the better. This is the least we can do for the future of our children or grandchildren.

Good wishes.....

It`s sad, that Muslims of British India were denied appropriate
land and resources to house them all. Instead, what we got was
a (according to Jinnah) ``moth-ridden`` Pakistan for half of them.
The prescient Muslim Leaguers at the time could see the writing
on the wall, of what would become of Muslims who would have
to live with the hindus.

All of it has come to pass and then some: the institutional racism,
the cultural segregation, the frequent massacres and orgies of
everyday murder, rape and beatings. The depiction in media of
a Muslim is far worse than of blacks under slavery in the west.
The indian Muslim is paying the rent for those of us, who were
lucky to migrate to Pakistan.

The heart is heavy for our oppressed brothers and sisters in india.

But I have to credit the shameless hindu, who is killing Muslims
in the north and razing their mosques in the south, but still trying
to discredit the 2-Nation Theory!. Their brazen greed is unmatched
anywhere else on the planet.

One can only fall to his knees and thank Jinnah, Iqbal and all our
leaders, who fearlessly fought and got, Pakistan for us. Too bad,
we couldn`t get enough, for all.

Sadna,

Don`t try and twist everything to your own silly little agendas...

By accusing Pakistanis for the plight of ``Indian Muslims`` you are refusing to take the responsibility for the plight of your backward minorities... lets stay focused on what i exactly said... instead of letting the auto-pilot of dispossessed Gupta syndrome take over.

arjun2#462
I meant AA in jobs not AA in education as I explain in that same post. That is because AA in entry level jobs usually goes on to mean AA in promotions to higher levels as well (in state jobs in India) which basically means marking out the employee from beginning to end of his/her career.

Ref bulleya #453

[......... my comp sic and engineering dept in a us university, was filled with indian hindus.........half the comp sci faculty was indian hindus........and the number of indian hindu students in all engg and cs depts of the univ. must have been in the hundreds........once again, only two indian muslims...........while the number of pakistanis must have been between 50 to 150..........

.........so as a criteria, if i were to walk into the cs dept of an IIT, and lets say any one graduating class had 200 students.........how many would be indian muslims?

.......would be interested in your objective and politically incorrect view.........]

Years ago, I saw a book on electrical engineering written by an Indian professor in some American university. From his name, it seemed he was from Bihar and a Hindu.

The book`s dedication read: ``To my Father who didn`t live to see his dream of seeing his son graduate from high school``.

One would assume that his father had less than a high school education if his dream was to see his son graduate from high school. Maybe he had none.

What motivated the son to go on and earn a PhD in engineering? Who were his role models? Did he even need one?

I know of two women (one in her early 60s and other in her late 60s) who have earned not one but two doctorates in music. Not the DFA (Doctor of Fine Arts) granted in the US for the study of music and outstanding performance but PhD`s for research work. The older woman earned her degrees late in life and continues to be active in research and is a noted performer. The comparatively younger woman is a musicologist and a professor of music. Both were born in the conservative Tamil Brahmin community that, though known to value education, restricted their girls` studies at the most to high school (during the times these women were growing up). What motivates these women to excel in their chosen profession?

Not to be outdone, the older one`s husband earned a PhD in Sociology when in his early 70s.

All those who are crying societal discrimination ought to look at people like these to recognize why cribbing about one`s station in life is a cheap cop-out.

That applies not just to Indian Muslims but to the entire SC/ST/MBC/BC/OBC/Walking Brain-Dead communities populated by Masanamuthus and Sangilikkaruppans.

PS. You want me to be any more polically incorrect? Because I can certainly accommodate you in that respect.

#457 by sadna on November 16, 2006 4:56pm PT


anil #452
``People entered through Quota are marked and discriminated.``

In my experience, that`s true for jobs


Maybe in govt sector jobs..in the private sector, which is a meritocracy for the most part, people don`t care about shit like that...If I`m a manager, I don`t care that my better and more productive employee went to college through AA...

Re: # 439

The patient of Dispossedssed Qadiani Syndrome spake again. Though he ignored the direct points of analysis of Sadna but he poohpoohed the people like me who agreed with her. This time, for god`s sake, he left the faeces aside.

Patients of this disease thought of having ball in the newly created Pakistan. Instead they had iron balls chained around their feet & stripped of the fundamental human right i.e right to conscience. Still, they reminisces abt the Heaven sought to be created by the old, wicked, drunkard, pork-slurper, communal and blood-thirsty fascist-beast with an occasional goody goody sound bytes delivered for the sake of record!

++++

I have an opportunity to peep into the mind of a pesudo-Indian or stranded Pakistanis in India.

>>>The IM Question...uh...yahaan kaun hai tera... <<<

I aver: `Why dont u go to the place that u think is ur mulk?`

I shall tell my story of hse hunting mid-90s in Hyd. I enrolled for Civil Services Exam coaching at Hyd Study Circle near Indira Park. I, along with a clasmate were looking around for a room near the park. We found a hse and saw it and found it OK. When the landlady finally asked us our names we told her the real names. She changed colours in her face that she`ll give room only for Muslim guys. We tried to persuade that we dont have any bad habits nor we cook any forbidden meats at home BUT no....a BIG No was said on our faces. What`s our misfortune???? Why this attitude. Shud I say now that Hindus are discriminated in India by Muslims? Hyd is not like other cities in India where certain localities are marked for people of certain religion. This is an old conservative Indian mentality. It permeates all communities. The Jains refused me house in Cambay in Gujarat coz I am a meat eater.

She`s also a liar like Disposseseed Qadiani.

>>(It might be prudent to point out here that when Pakistan wanted to send aid during the earthquake in Gujarat, a non-communal calamity, our government refused.) <<

Dawn reported on 2001-01-31 this and I am aware of the landing of PAF relief plane in Ahmedabad.

>>A C-130 Hercules transport plane landed in Ahmedabad on Tuesday,
ferrying 13 tones of relief material, including 200 tents and
thousands of blankets, a Pakistani diplomat told Dawn.<<<

Why bat for Pakistan? Yah kaun hai tera....????? With people like these do u need enemies?

As for the topic of ghettoisation, it`s fashinable to borrow this Jewish word to describe Indian Muslims here. Indian people of diff communties live together in their own areas, though it`s getting out of mode now. There are weaver communties, potter communties, Catholic communties, Jain communties & Brahmin communties etc.,

Indian Muslims are not a uniform bloc of people. What is in her UP is not true of the whole India. For that to know she must know India first. Since these people want India to be a colony of Persia, they care a hoot for the natives and Indians.

Carrying an Indian logo wudnt make us Indians. Lets see.

majmudar #: ........thanks for the info.........the statistics you have mention map directly on to the statistics i have seen here in north american IT..........it`s strange........sikhs form such a small amount of the indian population as do christians.........yet i have worked with indian sikhs and christians, quite often, but never end up running into indian muslims.......

Romair,

(if i were to walk into the cs dept of an IIT, and lets say any one graduating class had 200 students.........how many would be indian muslims? .......would be interested in your objective and politically incorrect view.........)

To answer your question. In my batch in engineering (Delhi Univ.) of the total strength of 320, there were only two Muslims. At B-school (IIM-LKO), of the total strength of 120, there were again only two Muslims (1.7% against 15% pop.). Incidentally one of them was a Lucknow Shia and a Keralite Muslim- better educated communities among Muslims. But 2 Parsis (way out of proportion to their population) and about 4-5 Sikhs and Christians apiece (again ahead of their pop %). IMs have lagged behind, because of a number of factors including the fact that they are largely drawn from the lower classes but there is no (excessive at least) discrimination against minorities as such.

Regards

Re: # 457

Sadna:

What you talking is point system, which is blind of community. Ivy Leagues use this system here.

The UC system had to drop the quota system. It instead adopted a system that guarantees an admission and acceptance to all top 10% of students from all high schools. Irrespective of high schools location, be it E. Palo Alto, or in Palo Alto. I think this approach would work in India too.

The absence of other communities in IITs, AIIMs, IIMs or RECs should be viewed in greater perspective to find the root cause.

The feeding schools, and coaching colleges themselves have lower percentage of students of other communities. When the input is not there, how can you not sacrifice quality or create other problems to meet quota.

There is a very strong need to improve quality of primary, middle and secondary education into each community by the community. In about five years when graduates of the middle and secondary education start coming out, the gap will be shortened.

What Farzana says in her iLog about housing is a real dilemma. I know many Indians have faced it in the U.S. and England too.

Anil

anil #452
``People entered through Quota are marked and discriminated.``

In my experience, that`s true for jobs, but not necessarily for education. Children do need to be given equal opportunity/access to education and should not be penalised for their life situation in this regard. I have had class-fellows from backgrounds where they wouldn`t have turned up if it hadn`t been for the education quota but who went on to do just fine. The basic issue is that socioeconomic background should be the criteria.

The current constitutional position that if you are a Hindu ``backward`` community (including those who manage to strongarm some elected govt at some point of time to be declared backward), you are automatically in need of quotas and if you are not a Hindu ``backward`` community, the state couldn`t care less what your socioeconomic situation is, is just a very bad and mindless position and policy.

re: bulleya/romair # 453
“what is your objective opinion on where indian muslims are vis-a-vis indian hindus........not why, or how they ended up there.......or what they should do better........”

Indian Muslims are not as well of financially as Indian Hindus and the gap is growing.


I can repeat what I said in post #444
“Indian Muslim middle class is conspicuous by its absence. We have the Muslim elite and the Muslim poor. That explains the statistics you have presented. To move up in India you have to get educated. As soon as the Indian Muslim poor understand that they will start moving up in life.”


To add to that Indian Muslims don’t seem to gravitate to science and math. Most Indian Muslims peruse fine arts. If you looked at film, advertising, journalism professions you would see a lot of Indian Muslims.

Regards,

Faruk

re: bulleya/romair # 453
“what is your objective opinion on where indian muslims are vis-a-vis indian hindus........not why, or how they ended up there.......or what they should do better........”

Indian Muslims are not as well of financially as Indian Hindus and the gap is growing.


I can repeat what I said in post #444
“Indian Muslim middle class is conspicuous by its absence. We have the Muslim elite and the Muslim poor. That explains the statistics you have presented. To move up in India you have to get educated. As soon as the Indian Muslim poor understand that they will start moving up in life.”


To add to that Indian Muslims don’t seem to gravitate to science and math. Most Indian Muslims peruse fine arts. If you looked at film, advertising, journalism professions you would see a lot of Indian Muslims.

Regards,

Faruk

#453 by bulleya on November 16, 2006 1:47pm PT


........i used to help companies set up there software engineering depts


Oh so now it`s ``software engineering depts``...before it used to be helping CIO/VP types set up their IT departments...

I don`t know if this self-delusion is a move sideways or down...

faruk #: .........i am assuming you are an indian muslim...........hence someone who could comment on this subject, with authority (unlike the rest of us) as it affects you directly...........what is your objective opinion on where indian muslims are vis-a-vis indian hindus........not why, or how they ended up there.......or what they should do better........

.......but where exactly are they socially, politically, economically, etc............

........i can give you my take, which is as follows:......every statistic i see from india, indicates that indian muslims are at the bottom of the society and that the gap between them and indian hindus is increasing, not decreasing........leading, in my opinion, to the east pakistan/west pakistan situation of 60s, i.e. a country advnancing economically, with one large group being left out of the spoils of the progress..........

.......in my profession of IT, in north america, i have run into hundreds of indian hindus..........i must have worked closely over the past ten to fifteen years with well over one hundred indians on projects, on a day to day basis.........

........yet i have yet to work with one single indian mulsim in this field!...perhaps i could strech it to one, if that..........i have worked with many some indian sikhs, indian christians though............in addition, i have run into, in any capacity, perhaps five indian muslims in IT.............compare that to maybe three hundred or more indian hindus.......

........i used to help companies set up there software engineering depts.......i must have gone through countless resumes of indian hindus...... intereviewed tens and tens of them.......and hired a significant number...........i have yet to hire an indian muslim.......primarily because i cannot even recall seeing a resume!...........

.........i do run into and know quite a few south asian muslims in north american IT, but literally every single one is a pakistani........no indians or bangladeshis.........barring the odd guy from google or azim premji we hear about........

.........in addition, my comp sic and engineering dept in a us university, was filled with indian hindus.........half the comp sci faculty was indian hindus........and the number of indian hindu students in all engg and cs depts of the univ. must have been in the hundreds........once again, only two indian muslims...........while the number of pakistanis must have been between 50 to 150..........

.........so as a criteria, if i were to walk into the cs dept of an IIT, and lets say any one graduating class had 200 students.........how many would be indian muslims?

.......would be interested in your objective and politically incorrect view.........

Re: # 451

Sanda:

Kerala is unique in many sense. Its social indicators are that of the first world, but economic indicators are no where to match its social performance. Even in mid 60s when I got admission in to engineering college, the quota was being misused. There was a quota of ``2`` in the college for OBCs. I know both were misused. Whenever there is a shortage of resources (seats in engineering college in this case), there is room for misuse. System can be designed to treat everyone with doubt and made rigid that eventually it breaks, or treat everyone with respect, and treat the violators with the stern punishment. I prefer the latter.

People entered through Quota are marked and discriminated. I am not a proponent of Quota, but support building at grass root levels. That is why your suggestion of targetted recruitment.

Anil

anil #450
I have seen fixed quotas in education and state jobs actually work in Kerala, for Muslims and others. But in Kerala, if I am not mistaken, quotas have long been out of the realm of politics. This is unlike in other parts of India, where the subject of quotas makes for irresponsible divisive politics and populism-driven reservation policies. The groups which have more political muscle get themselves declared backward communities and confer on themselves bigger quotas regardless of any actual justification for it in their socioeconomic situation. For example, I heard that in Rajasthan the required entrance test rank for medical college admission in the reserved categories was higher than that in the general merit category.

But ruinous and divisive politics around non-performing quotas is not sufficient excuse for the Indian state to abdicate its responsibility to ensure equal opportunities for all and equal progress of all. That is why I suggest the state should begin to change the whole quota debate by affirming its responsibility through nonquota initiatives for the under-represented.

Re: # 418

Sadna:

The only other place separate electorate was tried was in Apartheid South Africa. We all know what happened with that experiment.

Your later suggestions on special drives to recruit police, and education are important suggestions. The trade ``weaving and fine crafting`` that exist in the community can be commercialized by the community to bring more profits into the hands of weavers and craft-persons.

I have personally seen the effect of the latter in transformation in Benares (silk weavers), Kanpur (shoe makers), and Moradabad (brassware). The current generation is very dynamic, religious and equally Indian. All these initiatives have been from within the community, and not achieved through any legislation. A few years ago when I met some of the entreprenuers who have done wonders especially in Kanpur and Moradabad, where they connected with the overseas buyers. Their grandfathers were just struggling, because middle-men were taking all the profits away.

Anil

PS: And I also support special recruitment drives(not fixed quotas) for underrepresented communities in state jobs, including police.

#447
I meant re #444 I support positive discrimination in education for underrepresented communities.

Faruk
Glad to hear your take.

Re #443 I support positive discrimination in education for underrepresented communities.

kedarnathji #420
Well said.

``Segregating is less in the interests of the minorities because a brute majority can always pass anything it wants and it need not care for the minority vote.``

Exactly.

VRV #437
Thanks.

Re : sadna # 418
Separate electorates is nothing but the desire by the Muslim elite exclusive right to abuse the Muslim poor nothing else.

Regards,

Faruk

Re: aslam44 # 417

Aslam,
Are you familiar with Zoya Hassans work? It is interesting read although her solutions in my opinion are presented to start a debate. I don’t think reverse discrimination is a solution to discrimination. We have followed a similar policy towards dalits in India, they are not much better of than they were.
African Americans had institutionalized discrimination, there is nothing like that in the Indian context. Nothing prevents a Indian Muslim to succeed in India, but you have to work your butt off like everyone else.
Indian Muslim middle class is conspicuous by its absence. We have the Muslim elite and the Muslim poor. That explains the statistics you have presented. To move up in India you have to get educated. As soon as the Indian Muslim poor understand that they will start moving up in life.

Regards,


Faruk

Re: sadna # 409
I tend to agree. The problems and challenges faced by the Indian Muslim poor are no different than other Indians in the same income bracket. The Indian electorate is best served by representatives who cater to their need irrespective of religion.

Regards,

Faruk

Just the latest count of hits on these two websites:

Indian Muslims by Aparna Pande hits: 12889 interacts: 441

---

The Massacre at Bajaur by S. Farooq Hasnat hits: 12454 interacts: 576

---

Why more hits on the Indian Muslims site (but less interacts) than on the Bajaur massacre site?

It is just plain and simple. Hindoos interact on the other site, just to show their hatred towards Pakistan, plain and simple. On this board, they can not defend the shenanigans of their own Hindoo Land.

PS (to tahmed: I`d say that when some like Gandhi declares the greatest crime of the South Africans against Indians was that they were made to ride in trains with Africans, to me that constitute a qualitatively different proposition than Gandhi`s decision to marry off his own children according to his own wishes. When the same person speaks of the inherent superiority of the ``Indo-Germanic`` and ``Indo-Aryan`` stocks, one is reminded of another person who one Indian described in jest as the ``Aryan Mahatma``.

Re: # 429

Dear Tahmed,

Please look at the post again. I did not agree with Gandhi being nonviolent etc. I said that is not what I am arguing about. I have already explained that to me his ``public stances`` about non-violence means nothing to me.

Since you took issue with my comments about Gandhi, which were entirely about his ``concepts`` on race and caste, you are the one who is introducing ``additional issues``.

Instead of respecting my right to opine, you are trying to define the discussion in your own framework. But I am pleased to note that you wrote the following:

A ``champion of liberal causes`` would be someone who would have campaigned for liberal causes the world over - and everyone understands as well as you that Gandhi`s focus was ``merely`` on the sub-continent.

My issue is with those who make him into such a champion.

418, 420 and 437,

It is amazing how one Indian craps, and others gather around to rehash that crap as something edible.

Look ... we ``evil Pakistanis`` have not had anything to do with India since 1947... so it would be much better if you accepted responsibility for the plight of your minorities instead of always looking for the bogeyman, fall guy etc etc.

From 1857 to 1900, the British deliberately adopted a hostile policy to the Muslims ... especially those that had been the votaries of power .... when Lord Curzon set about to favor Muslims in 1905 ... it was a response to a historic wrong. It must be remembered that the Hindu majority was a direct beneficiary of ``divide and rule`` politics of the British. No wonder the great ``Indian Nationalist`` treatise Anand Math actually praises the British as liberators from evil Muslim rule. Even a reformer like Ranade chose figures like Shivaji, whose struggle was not against the British but a Mughal Emperor, as the ``national hero`` ... thus encouraged by the British, Hindus, to whom the difference between Farsi/Urdu and English was simply a change of alphabet, were soon able to create a progressive bourgeoisie.

In Muslims, the educational reform came through the efforts of the pro-West Islamic Modernist Sir Syed Ahmed Khan. He was, it must be remembered, viciously against the idea of Muslims joining the Hindus in Congress and he gave several reasons for it. While most Muslims stayed away from the Congress, there were several like Tyabji and Jinnah who were ardent Congressmen and Indians before they were Muslims. So what happened? It is easy to make a scapegoat out of one man or a few people ...

The real force that was at work was what I have often described as the Dispossessed Gupta Syndrome. The best articulation of the Dispossessed Gupta Syndrome was in form of Anand Math then, but one only needs to revisit Sadna`s illustrious 7 year career on this website to see how deeply ingrained this syndrome is in her psyche. It is the continuation of the same mistrust that plagued the Congress and the same mistrust that isolated the most gungho of Indian nationalists into going their own way. It is a syndrome that balks at the idea of an indianness that is not rooted in ``Hindu Cultural Life`` ... and therefore it cannot accept any non-Hindu minority to seek an identity that contradicts their own narrow cultural nationalism. Gandhiism, Hindutva and Thackereyism are only kinds of this ailment .... but it is the product of the same mindset that continously isolates and repulses others. As usual it has nothing to do with religion... Hinduism is not all bad certainly... but this millenial victimhood is certainly unique to Indian Hindu bourgeoisie.

#415 by HisExcellency

Since old ideas and policies have failed to solve the IM economic and human rights problem, Indian Hindus will either have to offer ``new ideas`` (judging by their stale stand on Kashmir, I find that unlikely)... or ultimately accept whatever solution the IMs propose.

Pakis preaching to Indians on how to treat their minorities is like a whore preaching the virtues of virginity. After having converted/exterminated most of the minorities, Pakis now have resorted to kidnapping Hindu girls, converting them to Islam and then marrying them off to Muslim men. If Yousuf Youhana, a popular celebrity, had to convert to Islam under pressure from his teammates, one can only imagine the plight of no-name minorities living in the towns and villages with an overwhelming Muslim majority.

Like I said in post #414, the status quo is not sustainable.

No one asked you for your opinion, because you are irrelevant to what India does in India.

Re: # 418 & 414,

Sadna,

Let me congratulate u for that post 418. If any Pakistani with his brain in place and his history known wud be hurt by the post. Since they dont believe in history but mythology it doesnt matter to them;).

I wish I wrote something like ur 418.

Her Excellency,

What about Bangladesh II, Bangladesh III & IV to do justice to the oppressed Sindhis, Balochis and Pakhtoons? I think that wud be a fairer solution to the oppression of non-Punjabis in Pakistan??

What abt the change of ethnic profile of Kashmir under ur control? What abt Punjabification of K`shmeer under ur control? They dont even had their K`shmeeri language but they became Punjabis in time by now!! How audacious it is on ur part to give such BS all in the name of religion?

Anil ji,

(Only Indians on this board get riled up. It is best for Indians on this board to move on too, and wish him best. )

Precisely. It is time Indians and Pakistanis moved beyond MAJ (pbuh), MKG, TNT, DAD and all such three letter words and concentrate their energy on how to get better, as individuals, societies and nations, economically, socially and otherwise.

But there is nothing so entertaining as MAJ-MKG/Indo-Pak/Hindu-Muslim-Ahmedi slugfests on chowk, particularly when Manto mian and Harish bhai get into the act.

Regards

#426 by HisExcellency

Funny that you say that, especially when just 4 months ago just 12 guys brought India`s financial center to a standstill. Now that wasn`t happening 10 years ago was it??

For how long? Years? Months? Weeks? Days? The fact that trains were running jam-packed the very next day, just a few hours after the blasts, blows holes into your deluded assertions.

#427 by HisExcellency

Who wants to amputate a patient that`s dying from internal bleeding anyway??

This statement would have been more credible if it had come before the 47-48 ``tribal`` invasion and the Kargil war. Now you look like the pathetic fox that said the grapes were sour just because it couldn`t reach them.

#428 by HisExcellency

[ Unlike India, Americans don`t use extremism of the few as a pretext for collective punishment. ]

Ever heard of the Patriot act? Your phone is being tapped even as we speak...

And rightfully so.

India should follow America`s example and revive POTA at the very least, even if they don`t go so far as to keep tabs on each end every Muslim (as they do in America).

#426 by HisExcellency

[Funny that you say that, especially when just 4 months ago just 12 guys brought India`s financial center to a standstill. Now that wasn`t happening 10 years ago was it?? ]

Jehadi wet dreams will remain wet dreams. No houris or ghilmans really exist, BTW. What really exists is the Sensex - that is breaking records every day.

But keep dreaming your jehadi dreams....

:)

#427 by HisExcellency

[Who wants to amputate a patient that`s dying from internal bleeding anyway?? ]

I do. I think POK, Balochisthan and Sindh should be amputated from the haemorrhaging body of Pakiland.

To begin with.

NWFP will be amputated later.

Re: # 429

Well said, Tahmad sahib. This is a great read not only for Yasser.

Anil

Mantolives #383 I think there are basically two issues here:

1. You consider Gandhi to be a racist/casteist: The quotes you provide certainly indicate his resentment at Indians in South Africa being considered at part with the Africans whom he considered savages. So, agreed that Gandhi would probably not have approved his daughter getting married to an African. How many Pakistanis do you know who would approve of a similar deal? Or even marriage outside their religion? Or even marriage to a non-Pakistani? Does this disqualify them from being considered worthy of being principled people?

Furhtermore, to repeat what I have said and you have ignored - we are all entitled to our views. If Gandhi had taken a gun and shot a black guy who was minding his own business - then he would have gone beyond his entitlement. This is what the concept of individual freedom is all about. How are you contributing to the promotion of individual freedom in Pakistan by focussing on a man`s views rather than his actions?

And why are you wasting so much energy on an individual - rather than focussing on the the great concept of non-violence with which he is associated?? as they say, small minds discuss personalities, big minds discuss concepts. Do yourself a favor and move out of this rut of Gandhi and Jinnah and what not. Focus on the concepts they stood for rather than their personalities.

I brought your focus on personalities rather than concepts to your attention a few years ago on chowk as well, btw. but never fear, I wont stop harping on this and will remind you again in a few years perhaps if all of us and chowk are are still around. :-)


2. On non-violence: You seem to agree (albeit reluctantly) on this point when you say ``please appreciate that Gandhi`s public stances of nonviolence (when in reality every single one of his movements turned violent) is hardly the point of disagreement here.``

That is good. You have the integrity to acknowledge the truth (which is more than can be said for many others on chowk).

3. You say, The point of disagreement is when this person is presented as a champion of liberal causes, which he never championed but infact vehemently opposed.``

It is on the above two issues I have been discussing. So dont raise additional issues and say that I am disagreeing.

Now that you have mentioned it, let me ask you to write more carefully. A ``champion of liberal causes`` would be someone who would have campaigned for liberal causes the world over - and everyone understands as well as you that Gandhi`s focus was ``merely`` on the sub-continent.

#416 by arjun2

[Muslims in America, for the most part, aren`t hung up on the islamist cr@p]

You probably didn`t hear about Sami al-Arian, Shoebomber, CAIR`s vociferous protests on Pennsylvania Ave, and the Buffalo sleeper cells. Unlike India, Americans don`t use extremism of the few as a pretext for collective punishment.

This principle is exclusive to Israelis and Hindus of Northern India, in the contemporary world.

re: #422 harimau

[The latter has been Pakistan`s wet dream for 59 years and it ain`t going to happen. ]

Who wants to amputate a patient that`s dying from internal bleeding anyway??

re: #422 by harimau

[That is what you have been saying about Kashmir too. Doesn`t look like it is the reality.]

Funny that you say that, especially when just 4 months ago just 12 guys brought India`s financial center to a standstill. Now that wasn`t happening 10 years ago was it??

#417 by aslam644 on November 15, 2006 4:04pm PT


Indian Muslims are not organised.


Gee..never a shortage of participants when protesting Bush`s visit or policy towards Israel......very well organized there....

OTOH, when was the last time they protested against musharraf or the saudi king?

Ref arjun2 #410

[Indians in the UK are immigrants too..maybe the problem is with muslims?]

Actually, the problem is with Islam.

Dhiren Barot was born a Hindu. At age 20 he converted to Islam and chose the name Abu Musa al-Hindi. At age 34, al-Hindi was convicted of plotting to blow up financial centers such as the New York Stock Exchange and was sentenced to 40 years in prison.

Yep, Islam is the problem all right.

what is it with pakis and their incessant whining?... it never stops... whine about everything and people who have nothing to do with them... palestinians, chchens, arabs, bedouins... and now pakis have started whining about indian muslims?... come on, give us a break... :)...

At least indians muslims have a vote, you pakis even don`t have that... so why are you whining about their ``low`` representation?... shouldn`t you guys get some representation for yourselves in your own country which is ruled by a tinpot, before talking about anyboyd else?...

Ref by HisExcellency #414

[Separate electorates, special budgetary allocations or muslim majority districts are one solution.]

How about separate localities for Muslims to live in a la the Warsaw Ghetto?

[Genocide and a second partition of India are another solution.]

The latter has been Pakistan`s wet dream for 59 years and it ain`t going to happen.

[Either way, the status quo is not sustainable.]

That is what you have been saying about Kashmir too. Doesn`t look like it is the reality.

Ref aslam644 #417

[Academics say that rather like African Americans, Indian Muslims have become victims of history and discrimination.]

The minute you said ``academics``, I knew it would be someone from Jawaharlal Nehru University. If there is one place worse that Aligarh Muslim University, it is Jawaharlal Nehru University, the place that manufactures Indian history to suit the Congress`s needs.

[Some suggest that mimicking US policy on African Americans might help.

But, says Zoya Hassan, professor of political science at Delhi`s Jawaharlal Nehru University: ``Unlike African Americans Indian Muslims are not organised. They have not campaigned for their rights effectively....``]

Not true at all. Indian Muslims, specifically those in UP and Bihar, campaigned for and got Pakistan where Muslim rights are supreme. It is unfortunate that they thought that UP and Bihar would be included in Pakistan. The moral of the story is: People with no idea of how to read a map ought not to be demanding countries. In fact, they shouldn`t be allowed out on their own.

Zoya Hassan, now she wouldn`t be a Muslima by any chance, would she? Even if she is, she would be perfectly unbised, wouldn`t she?

[``..... Of course racism is easier to identify than an anti-Muslim bias, but African Americans were lifted by a policy of positive discrimination which could help here.``]

Exactly what was the positive discrimination faced by Hindus for 1000 years of Muslim rule? The Muslims should get paid back in that coin. The first step would be imposition of the jizya on Indian Muslims. The next would be periodic mass conversion drives to convert them from Islam. The third would be levelling of mosques and madrassas. The next would be carrying off their women and raising their children as Hindus. As regards the fifth, I think I shall refrain from suggesting buggery of prepubescent Muslim boys as retaliation because Hindus abhor buggery and sodomy.

#418 by sadna on November 15, 2006 4:20pm PT

Sadna excellent thoughts that I myself have concluded. Unfortunately, telling it to many of the subcontinental Muslims especially the Pakistanis is like ``bhains ke samne been bajana``. Pakis talking about an electoral system is like a seventh grade drop out talking about nuclear physics. They themselves have not been able to have a functioning constitution and democracy but preaching to others.

What these Jinnahites don`t realize is that this separate electorate system was part of a divide and rule. The proof is in the pudding that they themselves never had separate electorate. In Britain Catholics don`t get to vote only Catholics, Anglicans for Anglicans, etc. No other European democracy, US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan or any other major democracy I know does that either. The only one that tried this is Lebanon and we can see the consequences. Segregating is less in the interests of the minorities because a brute majority can always pass anything it wants and it need not care for the minority vote. Recently the macacca comment cost a senator his seat and has shifted the entire balance of power in the Senate.

#417 by aslam644 on November 15, 2006 4:04pm PT

Before barking thru your ass do you have statistics on how the Blacks are doing in the US? You would be more than shocked? More than 40% of the prison population is Black. Blacks are more likely to receive the death penalty than the Whites. There has been only one Black governor in history and that man Douglas Wilder was a light-skinned white. More than one-half of Black kids are born out of wedlock and grow up without a father. Take a tour of banks, hospitals and other professional institutions and see the percentage of Blacks with your own eyes.

The difference is that Blacks were genuinely discriminated in the US. Slavery ended only 140 years ago but the Jim Crowe laws of separate but equal persisted for another one hundred years. Separate but equal was considered normal. Unlike the Muslims who ruled India for 500 years. The moment their power started getting diluted and they had to share it with others they demanded a separate nation for themselves and eventually got themselves not one but two nations. Unlike the Blacks who still had to live in the same White-dominated society and work things out. Yes, Blacks need to do more to improve themselves and are partly to blame for their current sorry state but they have been historically wronged a lot. Unlike the Muslims of the subcontinent who are just mentally lazy and minds polluted with jehad and other nonsense.

#415
Yeah of course I mean Indian Hindus. Indian Muslim politics since 1900s (since Lord Curzon first divided Bengal for precisely this reason-creating Muslim majority regions) has been all about separate electorates and creating more Muslim majority regions to offset the Hindu majority.

What actually happened with separate electorates was that Muslims became an isolated permanent minority with noone else having a stake in their wellbeing. Even with specially demarcated regions, being an overall minority Muslims could not prevail over the size of the Hindu majority - such separatism only contributed to their increasing isolation which made them more and more powerless over the Hindu majority.

All these 100 odd years Hindus were told ad nauseum how if only Muslims voted only for other Muslims and got to rule themselves without Hindu interference everything would be fine. It hasn`t happened - even after permanent separation the Pakistanis` whole political system is still geared to deal with Indian Hindus and Pakistanis are on an eternal quest for parity with them - selling their religion to the highest Gulf bidder, villifying its minorities, shaping its international relations, junking electoral democracy, devastating Afghanistan and militarising their civil society all for the sake of holding off the Hindu majority of India.

When a 100 year old policy fails so abysmally, people should think a little before recommending more of the same. If Indian Hindus were voting in separate electorates, those Hindu leaders they vote for would care even less about the Muslims living among them than they do now.

So for example, under separate electorates, Gujarati Muslims might have had 9 percent of the seats in Gujarat legislature and Indian Muslims would have 14% of the seats in the Lok Sabha but due to separate electorates the leaders of the remaining 86% Indians would not be seeking any Indian Muslims votes and could afford to neglect Indian Muslims` concerns entirely and completely unlike now.

In that situation Pakistan would get to arm/intrigue with Indian Muslims against their fellow countrymen exactly like Syria and Iran arm/intrigue with the Lebanese Shias against other Lebanese communities and there would be not one Gujarat 2002 but many such.

Such a scenario would be Pakistanis` fondest hope of course - namely Pakistanis` direct interference in India`s and Indian Muslims` internal affairs without accepting any Pakistani accountability to Indian Muslims, exactly as Jinnah envisaged. Pakistan can then weild power over Indian Muslims without being accountable to Indian Muslims for anything which affects them, whether their right to change their governments or fair share of amenities, resources, education, economic opportunities.

But not being a Pakistani, I believe it is much better for Indian Muslims not to become isolated from other Indians and reduced to being instruments of Pakistani interests through a separate electorates/separate enclaves system. It is much better for Indian Muslims to instead hold Indian Hindus accountable under joint electorates for upholding of their rights and for their fair share of amenities, resources, education, economic opportunities.

But either way, I doubt Pakistanis` ultimatums on status quo to Indian Hindus like you are declaring are going to get Indian Muslims anywhere.

Academics say that rather like African Americans, Indian Muslims have become victims of history and discrimination. Some suggest that mimicking US policy on African Americans might help.

But, says Zoya Hassan, professor of political science at Delhi`s Jawaharlal Nehru University: ``Unlike African Americans Indian Muslims are not organised. They have not campaigned for their rights effectively. Of course racism is easier to identify than an anti-Muslim bias, but African Americans were lifted by a policy of positive discrimination which could help here.``

In numbers

Muslims form 14.7% of India`s 1.1 billion population but only

3% or less of the Indian army

7% of public administrators

5% of the railways staff

3.5% of the country`s banking employees

#413 by HisExcellency on November 15, 2006 2:47pm PT


Muslims in America, for the most part, aren`t hung up on the islamist cr@p...unlike the jihadis in the UK...

feel free to offer the land of the pure as a new home to Indian muslims....it`ll be fun to watch just how few people take you up on your offer...

#412

You must be referring to Indian Hindus when you used the term ``Indians`` coz the Indian Muslims are indeed pondering the idea of Muslim majority districts (read post #409 again).

Since old ideas and policies have failed to solve the IM economic and human rights problem, Indian Hindus will either have to offer ``new ideas`` (judging by their stale stand on Kashmir, I find that unlikely)... or ultimately accept whatever solution the IMs propose.

Like I said in post #414, the status quo is not sustainable.

re: ##411

Out of 545 parliamentary districts, just 11 have a Muslim majority. Communal harmony, village committees and employment are slightly better in these districts. Maybe because [Hindu] majority politics didn`t take root?

Unemployment and human rights abuses are a nation-wide problem for IMs, but not a ``national`` problem because it does not affect Hindus to the same extent.

Therefore a special nation-wide solution for IMs is necessary. Separate electorates, special budgetary allocations or muslim majority districts are one solution. Genocide and a second partition of India are another solution.

Either way, the status quo is not sustainable.

re: #410 by arjun2

Muslims immigrants in U.S. are prosperous..maybe problem is with govts of UK & India?

#409
I doubt Indians are going to be inspired by the shining examples set by the electoral systems of Pakistan and Bangladesh which were nothing but India redistricted to create Muslim majority regions. Indian Muslims` best hope for the future lies in their greater integration into the political system not greater separation and definitely not in some Muslim leaders getting their seats protected from challenge by gerrymandering like the Republicans have done for themselves in the US and Pakistani elite in Pakistan.

Re: # 409

HE,

We have many Muslim majority dists in India from Assam to Kerala.

If it`s not abt religious agenda why u need a religion-specific dists specially created? U dont need religion for day-to-day admin and civil life.

As for Milli Gazette, are they any diff from RSS magazines? I think the Khalidi wants mini-Pakistans all over India?????

It seems u have taken a position of the old Indian malaise i.e Hindu Vs Muslims. We thought we came over it after losses of a million souls and three milion souls after exorcising the demons in 1947 and 1971 respectively.

U still want to revisit the pitfalls & horrors of communal politics? Are u blood thristy?

As a Pakistani, u must aware that the peaceful social life is all what people want with the external social environment with no biases towards others. ur theory goes against the very grain of that thinking.

U can start minimising the discepancies BUT if the system is descrepant it`ll be incorrigible. Thats`s the diff between India and Pakistan. Our setup is better & unbiased but there are descepancies which is not the case in Pakistan.

#408 by HisExcellency on November 15, 2006 1:21pm PT

Indians in the UK are immigrants too..maybe the problem is with muslims?

An India Muslim academic from MIT makes the case for Muslim-majority districts in India...

Indian minority empowerment through political representation

By M Ayub Khan
The Milli Gazette Online

[Complete Article]

Numerous studies of democracies around the world have shown that minority representation strengthens representational links, promotes positive attitudes toward government, and encourages political participation. One study of the United States and New Zealand showed that redistricting of electoral constituencies to maximize the number of black voters in the former and reserving of seats exclusively for voters of Maori descent in the latter has led to a marked increase in minority representation in their national legislatures (Minority Representation, Empowerment and Participation by Susan Banducci, Todd Donovan and Jeffret A. Karp). It is a known fact that minorities in India are not adequately represented in the nation’s political institutions. Correcting this flaw in our democracy demands the urgent attention of the decision makers before these communities get further marginalized.

Several innovative as well as not so innovative solutions to this problem have been suggested. Dr.Krishnasamy of Tamil Nadu’s Puthiya Thamizhagam for instance is calling for a separate electorate for schedule castes and tribes. This demand was first made by Ambedkar in 1931. Krishnasamy dismisses claims that separate electorates would further divide the society: ``It is a fact that Indian society is divided along caste lines. Even after 57 years of independence, nowhere in the country are inter-caste marriages a norm.`` In this regard, the Puthiya Thamizhagam and Piranthamann Trust of Tamil Nadu even organized a national seminar last December with several politicians, activists and academics of note in attendance. Surprisingly, there was no reaction to this seminar from the Sangh Parivar.

But when Dr.Omar Khalidi, the Hyderabad born MIT academic, suggested another way for improving Muslim representation, he was attacked for allegedly advocating the ``Islamization`` of India. Explaining his call for creating Muslim majority districts in an interview to the Radiance he said : ``We need Muslim-majority districts for three reasons. First, concentrated areas provide security. Second, they provide an environment that is conducive to our cultural independence. Third, they provide a political base through which our people can be elected. At present, constituencies have been created in a way that our numbers don`t add up to elect adequate legislators.... Hyderabad and Rangareddy in Andhra Pradesh and Gulbarga and certain talukas could be merged to create a Deccan province. Similarly in Bihar, the regions of Katihar, Kishanganj and Purniya can be made into an Urdu-speaking province or a Union Territory. There are regions in Bengal and UP where Muslims can be in majority. Though, a large number of Muslims would still be left out, having these strongholds is important for their future. This would ensure proper political representation in States and we would have our voice in Parliament.... A decade ago, it was not fashionable to talk about reservation for Muslims. Today, Muslims have reservation in Kerala and Karnataka. In Andhra, too, we are likely to get reservation. Don`t judge everything from what`s happening today. Huq liye jaten hain pesh nahin kiye jate.``

Dina Nath Mishra writing in The Pioneer (Feb.26, 2005) claimed that Khalidi’s suggestions are nothing but a call to ``Islamise the whole world.``

``Jehadis are fighting for it. In India, they, too, have an agenda. Dr Khalidi has just put it in words and has, in fact, given a clarion call. Jinnah propounded the `Two-Nation Theory` and carved out a nation of Dar-ul-Islam (land of believers). The rest of India is Dar-ul-Harb (land of non-believers) which needs to be conquered,`` Mishra wrote.

One is at pains to understand where in the interview has Khalidi given such a call. Examining his thesis in the light of current events reveals that there is some merit to it. Security is of utmost importance for all Indian Muslims after what happened in Gujarat in 2002. A community cannot pull itself from poverty and illiteracy if it lives in constant fear for its safety. Muslim concentrated areas if not an ideal solution seem to be the only alternative for the near future. As a matter of fact such ghettos are already a reality. After the indiscriminate Gujarat massacres even the educated elite has permanently moved to Muslim areas. Investigative reports by NDTV and others have shown that even if they want to, Muslims are unlikely to get accommodation in majority dominated neighborhoods in urban areas. Apart from safety such concentrated areas ensure that Muslims are able to maintain their cultural identity in the multi-cultural democracy of ours. These politico-cultural enclaves will, more importantly, send Muslim candidates in numbers that are proportional to their numbers to political office.

It is important to note here that Khalidis’ is but one possible solution to address the dismal figures of Muslim and other minority representation. Several other options like the open list proportional representation system where parties are given seats in proportion to votes that they get via their candidates can be explored.

Far from leading to another partition or ``Islamizing`` of India such an exercise would further strengthen the faith of Muslims in India’s democracy and remove the divisions and disparities of the society. Doubters are advised to read what experts have to say on this issue. ``It is increasingly being recognized that an electoral system can help to ``engineer`` co-operation and accommodation in a divided society. Electoral system design is now accepted as being of crucial importance to wider issues of governance, and as probably the most influential of all political institutions,`` says The International IDEA Handbook of Electoral System Design,`` published by International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance, Stockholm, Sweden. It is high time for India’s electoral system to undergo an overhaul. «

Dear Arjun

Unlike Pakistanis in UK, Indian Muslims are not immigrants to India. They made India. You didn`t eat paint chips as a kid, did you?

#406 by HisExcellency on November 15, 2006 12:29pm PT


Unemployment & low incomes of IMs are just an economic manifestation of ``tyranny of majority``.


Pakis in the UK are at the bottom of the economic scale in the UK while Indians don`t suffer the ``tyranny of majority``...

Unemployment & low incomes of IMs are just an economic manifestation of ``tyranny of majority``.

But you know something is terribly wrong when a majority also expects the religious minority to accept an ancient hate song as the national anthem... when the majority wants the minority to insult itself every day just to prove its loyalty.

In the past 50 years India has made great progress... only towards becoming another Rwanda.

The history and politics of Vande Mataram

By Shamsul Islam
The Milli Gazette
May 15, 2004

[Excerpts]

The Hindutva gang has been raking up this issue periodically as part of Muslim-bashing since Independence, especially on the eve of elections. As part of anti-Muslim propaganda they coined the slogan ``Iss desh maen rehna hae to Vande Mataram kehna hoga`` (If you want to live in this country, you will have to sing Vande Mataram).

Vande Mataram was part of the novel Anandmath, which glorified the annihilation of Muslims and not the British rule in India. This objection was very relevant, as even a cursory glance of the novel will prove. The novel was replete with glorification of incidents of “cleansing” of Muslims like the following one: ``The rural people ran out to kill the Muslims while coming across them. In the night, some ones were organized in groups and going to the Muslim locality, they torched their houses and looted their everything. Many Muslims were killed; many of them shaved their beards, smeared their bodies with soil and started singing the name of Hari. When asked, they said, we were Hindus. The frightened Muslims rushed towards the town in group after group. The Muslims said, Allah, Allah! Is the Kortn Sareef (sic) (holy Koran) proved entirely wrong after so many days? We pray namaz five times but couldn`t finish the sandal-pasted Hindus. All the universe is false.``

Bankim`s novel simultaneously glorified the colonial British rule. It portrayed the British masters as saviours of Hindus. This love for the British masters and exploiters was clearly visible in the last few lines of Anandmath. When the Hindu army (Santan rebels) was able to defeat Muslim rulers and move on to fight the British too, a mystic leader (Satyananda) appeared and told them: ``Your mission has been successful. You have performed the well-being of the Mother. The English reign has been established. You give up the war and enmity-mood. There is no more enemy. The Englishman is our ally King. Moreover, none possesses such power who can win the war with the Englishmen ultimately.`` Thus the great leader of Hindu rebellion was finally able to convince Santans about the historic utility of the British Raj for the resurrection of the Hindu kingdom and many of them went to Himalayas renouncing this world. Anandmath, which heralded the Hindu nationalist movement, is full of such perceptions.

kaalchakra #396
``this Gandhi understood, and never, as far as I know, became bitter toward Baba Sahib``

Correct. From here:
http://expressindia.com/ie/daily/19970724/20550283.html

``I think, however, that for Ambedkar to stand up to the uncrowned king and anointed Mahatma of the Indian people required extraordinary courage and will-power. Gandhi thought so too. Speaking at a meeting in Oxford in October 1931, Gandhi said he had ``the highest regard for Dr Ambedkar. He has every right to be bitter. That he does not break our heads is an act of self-restraint on his part``. Writing to an English friend two years later, he said he found ``nothing unnatural`` in Ambedkar`s hostility to the Congress and its supporters. ``He has not only witnessed the inhuman wrongs done to the social pariahs of Hinduism``, reflected this Hindu, ``but in spite of all his culture, all the honours that he has received, he has, when he is in India, still to suffer many insults to which untouchables are exposed``. In June 1936, Gandhi pointed out once again that Dr Ambedkar ``has had to suffer humiliations and insults which should make anyone of us bitter and resentful. Had I been in his place,`` he remarked, ``I would have been as angry``.

Gandhi`s latter-day admirers might question Ambedkar`s patriotism and probity, but the Mahatma had no such suspicion himself. Addressing a bunch of Karachi students in June 1934, he told them that ``the magnitude of (Dr Ambedkar`s) sacrifice is great. He is absorbed in his own work. He leads a simple life. He is capable of earning one to two thousand rupees a month. He is also in a position to settle down in Europe if he so desires. But he doesn`t want to stay there. He is only concerned about the welfare of the Harijans``.

To Gandhi, Ambedkar`s protest held out a lesson to the upper castes. In March 1936, he said that if Ambedkar and his followers were to embrace another religion, ``We deserve such treatment and our task (now) is to wake up to the situation and purify ourselves``. Now many heeded the warning, for towards the end of his life Gandhi spoke with some bitterness about the indifference to Harijan work among his fellow Hindus: ``The tragedy is that those who should have especially devoted themselves to the work of (caste) reform did not put their hearts into it. What wonder that Harijan brethren feel suspicious, and show opposition and bitterness``.``


``My personal view is that if there was one Indian who saved Hindu-Muslim relations from completely breaking down in India and who completely delegitimated (not removed) caste-based discriminations among Hindu intelligentsia, it was Gandhi.``

I think so too. But we Indians also need to understand what immense courage was displayed by those many Muslims who stood by their convictions about a united composite India throughout those difficult times despite being denounced as traitors by all sides - Muslims and Hindus both and at great political costs to themselves.

Pl shed some tears for the Stranded Biharis. U guys may not accept them as u discouraged the entry of non-Punjabis into Pakistan in 1947. These stranded people wudnt look like you Punjabis. Instead they look like monkeys (as some Pak General quoted abt them b4).

For more info: http://thestrandedpakistanis.com/

+++++++++++++++++++++

http://www.springerlink.com/content/x6189617q1w1j617/

Abstract

The living conditions of the Bihari camp dwellers of Bangladesh are an embarrassment to the country`s social environment. An investigation was made about the socio-economic condition of the Biharis living in the Khalishpur camp, Khulna. A comparison has been made between the Biharis and equivalent Bengali slum dwellers in Khalishpur. The data were collected from primary sources. A 10% systematic sampling was undertaken to collect a total of 150 Bihari households and through a 20% systematic sampling 150 Bengali households were surveyed by questionnaires. Data analysed both qualitatively and quantitatively indicate that the Biharis are leading an extremely substandard life when food consumption, medical expenditure, schooling, income and employment pattern were considered. The condition as prevalent in the camp has led to a high rate of infectious diseases which is likely to aggrevate creating environmental hazards. The country then may face serious social problems which should be prevented through gearing up the process of repatriation and through encouraging community participation in improving their economic and social environment.

++++++++++++++++++++

http://www.migrationdrc.org/research/projects/project3d.html

A section of them integrated with the mainstream Bangladesh community; another remained in camps, claiming Pakistani citizenship and initially looked after by the International Committee for the Red Cross. The camp dwellers demanded repatriation to Pakistan, a demand that was not honoured by Pakistan.

+++++++++++++++++++++

http://www.cidcm.umd.edu/inscr/mar/chronology.asp?groupId=77103

+++++++++++++++++++++

Dispossessed Qadiani & others concerned,

When countered with facts u revert to pretend to be retard who doesnt learn a wee-bit out of new notes supplied. Thick skins and propaganda men are known specimens of such tactics. On Chowk u are an eminent retard and thick skin!

People evolve with times and in ur case I dont see anything happening all ur life i.e u dont unlearn or relearn any thing. Unlike u, Gandhi evolved in his life; he`s not perfect though. He`s eccentric. He`s stubborn but he`s a student of life. He learned from mistakes he made.

As for the topic of the board:

Lets start with Indian Muslims living in Pakistan. I already gave the portion from the article of Burhanuddin Hasan (ex-PTV director). THEY ARE MORE THAN REVEALING ABT THE DISCRIMINATION OF INDIAN MUSLIMS IN PAKISTAN. If Indian Muslim like Musharraf makes up for the losses & humialations inflicted on rest of Indian Muslims in Pak then India had 4 Muslim Prezs till now. That way India is far better if Muslims Prezs makes up for the rest of Indian Muslims in India.

We talk abt Indian Muslims (stranded Pakistanis) in Bangladesh. Pak even doesnt recognise them for existence. They live in miserable conditions in camps in Bangladesh.

Stop shedding crocodile tears for Indian Muslims, u thick skin retard!

I see that my Gandhi-expose has had a rather electrifying effect (as usual- I love it the number of times it works) on Hindutva brigade.

Harimau,

I will respond to your comments in detail, so please remain tuned to this. Right now I have a few more pressing concerns and I will return to this.

I should however point out the double standard that Indians display on this website... If the British said anything that goes against the Congress, it is because they were British so it is excusable... but their views on ML is accepted as the gospel truth. Look... Mountbatten, other than being extremely pro-Nehru, was also looking for a scapegoat for his own mistakes...

Unless, among others, H M Seervai, Patrick French and now Stanley Wolpert (with his new book ``Shameful flight``) have also gone to ``Mahomedali Jinnahbhai college of Law`` as you say, you don`t have any basis or factual rebuttal.

i think instead of talking of the state of indian muslims, someone ought to be talking about the state of pakistani muslims, especially their women. may be ylh and mrs. ylh would be the best people to comment to start commenting on this little piece of news that appeared today in the daily times.

rgds,

devkant.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006 11 15 story_15-11-2006_pg1_1

Women’s Protection Bill to b