Indian Muslims

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

In a country where so many Hindus themselves are so destitute so illiterate so backward, so fixated on religion so entangled its myriads of gods and godesses and their never ending garish rituals in public life or on TV, in cinema theaters or in their soap operas -- what can they do for the backward Muslims who make a fetish of their regression to 6th century Islam.

what the government can do is to kick the Muslims in their behind and wake them up by abolishing thier goddam Muslim Personal Law first -- and ban that goddam round `topi` in which they all look like a bunch of opiate morons -- and secularize their goddam madarassas by introducing some earth based Science into their high flying retrograde delusions.

Aparna-ji, a very important topic and one that deserves discussion. No country can progress if this or that community gets completely left behind.

However, your analysis is at the ``mulayam yadav`` -level of intellectual bankruptcy. Mr. Yadav (``Mullah Mulayam``) is the CM of Uttar Pradesh based on strong muslim and ``secular`` support. Everyday he explains how his heart bleeds s-o-o much for muslims.

And what do we see in UP?

- No initiatives in support of education
- Failure of polio eradication program predominantly among UP muslims
- A mullah minister who offered 10 crores to kill Danish Cartoonists. No action taken against the rabid extremist, he continues to serve in the goverment

A real article on the subject would separate North indian muslims from South indian muslims. The latter are making much more progress as compared to their Northern counterparts. Why? Can we replicate their success story in the North?

Which states have done best to integrate muslims into the middle-class? Which states have the most inclusive education system? what are the barriers to getting more muslim girls into school?

What about creation of more schools? How come there are not many initiatives for secular schools or for upgrading madrasas? There are some success stories, notably in Bengal:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4829140.stm

Can this model be followed elsewhere?

But, you see, for our secular ``intellectuals`` this kind of thought is not required. By being secular and saying a few kind words for some minority group, you are already a great person!

Thats why you have written what is a mostly vapid and content-free article.

Ms. Pande,

Taking a snap of the condition of Indian Muslims in a very abridged article amounts to oversimplification and sweeping generalisations.

Though being a Punjabi refujee himself Justice Sachar is a leftie and an impartial observer of issues. The study in all likelihood would throw an all-India picture with regional variations, good in some places & bad/worse in other places.

(It`s not clear what u are discussing here or there`s going to be a sequel to this).

When I saw development indices of the south Indian Muslims in general and Kerala Muslims in particular, they are far better than the similar figures of UP Hindus. Therefore the development issues shud be seen in the secular perspective than in communal angle coz the facts stand as witness.

A book by Prof Tim Dyson, Prof Cassen and Dr Leela Visaria (LSE Professors and an Indian expert wrote this book on 21st century & India) wud be more appropriate to know the economic conditions of our people, either Hindus, Muslims or any other minority.

Focussing on religion as a cause for backwardness is good for Chowk readers and professional fulltimers here but not for the sake of a meaningful argument that encapsulates all the casues for their backwardness. Mr. Hasan has already mentioned that some Hindu groups themselves are as poor - if not more poorer - as Muslims and that`s true.

And like Hindus, Muslims are also graded on caste/sect lines and their individual economic conditions are similar to their castes/sects indices.

I agree with what Mr. Mishra : ``Thats why you have written what is a mostly vapid and content-free article.``

Ms.Pande
This is a badly written article. It does not attempt to analyse anything and is terribly presumptuous.

There are three kinds of lies. Plain lies, white lies and statistics -- Benjamin Disraeli

Archana, you are blowing statistical data just like the pseudo-secular politicians like Mulayam Yadav and manmohan singh kohli but not going beyond the statisitics. Yes, just blowing statistics makes for good rhetoric but is no long-term cure.

1) Myth #1 - There is a deliberate attempt to keep Muslims down in India. Before analyzing that assertion you have to consider two factors:

a) How are other religious minorities doing?
b) How are Muslim societies in neighborhood doing?

a) Other religious minorities like Sikhs, Christians, Parsis and Jews are doing much better than the Hindus. The only ones who probably are not doing that well are the Buddhists because most of them happen to be newly converted Dalits.

b) More important factor is how other Muslims in the region are doing. Just as good or bad as India and Indian Muslims. Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Yemen, Egypt, Afghanistan are all in a similar boat. Even in oil rich nations like Iran and Saudi Arabia, the educational development is not that high. Take away the positions of military dictators and such and concentrate on jobs like doctors, engineers, scientists, etc. and you will find a paucity of them from the Islamic world compared to their one-fifth of the global population. I read somewhere that Israel has more scientists than the entire Islamic world.

2) Population growth - You yourself mentioned that there were 35 million Muslims in India during 1947 and now it is 150 million. That is over four times what it was in 1947. The population of India during that same period has tripled. Of course, the contribution of irresponsible breeding by other religious groups like Hindus, Sikhs and Christians in tripling of this population is nothing to sneeze at. That is why these groups are also still in a shit hole. However, the Muslims have bred more irresponsibly and hence are in a deeper poo than other religious counterparts. Where an average Hindu couple might have had 4-5 kids, a Muslim couple might have had 1 or 2 more. Just for the road. Lot of kids might be good for narebaazi but if you want the kids to have a quality education, nourishment, attention from parents, then the fewer the better. If the Hindu has been an idiot then a Muslim has been a mega-idiot.

3) Finally, talk like only 8% of the judiciary is Muslim is nice political slogans. One criteria to be a judge is that a person must possess a law degree. Ms. Pande, do you have any statistics on how many Muslims have gotten a law degree?. I am pretty sure it will be in the same 8% ballpark range. To get a law degree, one must attend a law college and the first step is to apply for it. Ms. Pande, do you have any statistics on how many Muslims try to enter law colleges? To attend a law college, one must graduate from a Bachelor`s program first. Ms. Pande, do you have statistics on how many Muslims have gotten a Bachelor`s degree? I am sure you are getting the line of thought that I am developing. Ultimately, it starts from the bottom and the primary responsibility is of the parents to educate their kids. The Indian government might be idiot, incompetent and corrupt but blaming everything on it is irresponsible. It has tried to have universal education in most parts of the country. Parents can send their kids to school for free. In some parts they even have free mid-day meals. Many Indian parents don`t take advantage of this. The problem is more acute amongst Muslims especially when it comes to the girls. Yes, that Rehana or Salma might have developed a cure for cancer or invented a reliable alternative fuel technology. But if instead she is an illiterate housewife in a veil then it is only parents who are to blame.

Muslim enrolment and retention rates in primary and secondary level institutions are lower than the national average. The Sachhar Committee report has recommended the need to have more English and Urdu medium government schools in Muslim-dominated areas. Madrassa education, often the only alternative, need not be the only form of schooling available to young Muslims.

---

can some one tell me how a kid has the time and motive to go the madrassa school but not to his local govt school? Isn`t primary and secondary school education almost free in govt schools? true it is not of highest standard(and I went to one so I know:) ) but I can`t believe best alternative is religious education.

Re: # 4

A small corrigendum:

The book I mentioned deals with the possible development of India in 21st century than the development of people as religious groups.

Re: # 7
[...how a kid has the time and motive to go the madrassa school but not to his local govt school?..]

It`s social conditioning thing and complete lack of awareness... education gets very low priority in muslim communities... madrassa becomes attractive because allah/koran is associated with it...

I studied in a primary school which was named as ``Urdu Lower Primary School`` - it was one of the uniq schools in the area that has a separate section which provided education in Urdu from class I... it was specially designed to attract the sizeable muslim population in the area, even to the point naming the school as ``Urdu School``, even though urdu was just one small section... Guess, what the attendance level was?... abysmal, to say the least...

Upliftment of muslims has to start from the very basics... what is needed is massive social awareness program... a grassroot campaign to make people understand the issues and come out their self-imposed reversion towards secular education... educated muslims have a huge role to play - but I am afraid - they are busy chest-beating and hindu-bashing... the likes of FV...

too bad...

The Muslim predicament in India is the undeniable evidence that Gandhi, Nehru, and Congress leadership in general were liars. The attitude of hindu interactors at this website is a further reminder of the kind of murderous oppression they live in and the kind of bigotry and intimidation they have to endure everyday. Thanks God for Pakistan. Thank you Mr. Jinnah.

If muslims lag behind, it must be the fault of the non-muslims who keep them down. If Brit-pakis are way way behind brit-indians, it`s because the brits are racists and haven`t been able to create the conditions for brit-muslims to rise.

You see, it`s always incumbent on the non-muslims to create the right conditions for muslims. If, despite opportunities being provided, muslims still lag behind, there`s no way it could actually be the fault of muslims....

Aparna Pande -

Where did you get your Masters ?
Was it from a Commie-infested, intellectual-vaccum like JNU ?

What you have written is nonsense. 35 million did not stay back because they
``liked Gandhi or Nehru`` or as if they were ``secular``.
Find out what percent of muslims voted for Pakistan (and then stayed back in India)
- that will expose the nonsense that you write.

Find out the real reason as to why so called ``nationalist Muslims`` (infact they are
the predecessors of todays MMA in Pakistan) did not want Pakistan. The argument
by the ``nationalist`` muslims was that it would be harder to make
India a ``Darul-Islam`` if the partition happened. The ``Nationalist muslims`` did not
want Pakistan because it would be easier to convert India from Dar-ul-harb into
Dar-ul-islam. Those who wanted partition and Pakistan (like Jinnah), argued that
if they could first get Pakistan , then they could conquer India at one stroke by
waging war. So the goal was the same - making India a Darul-islam - only the
methodology was different.

Please stop peddling lies. Thankfully, because of the internet - it is easier to expose
the falsities people like you spread.

I hope that your dissertation will be better (or atleast more honest) than the drivel
that you write on chowk.

The authoress writes [Some of the key figures given by the report are revealing. Muslim’s form 13% of India’s population but have only 6.4% of jobs. The percentage of Muslim employees in the judiciary stands only at 8% but they make up a large percentage of those in prisons. Even in the political spectrum Muslims have been under-represented, both in the Lok Sabha and in the State Assemblies.]

Instead of these numbers, would you be willing to tell us what percentage of suicide bombers in India are Muslims? What percentage of smugglers? What percentage of tax cheats? What percentage of petty traders? What percentage of brass workers, leather workers, people who dive into narrow wells for entertaining the public, people who make miniature Taj Mahals, people who weave baskets and carpets? People who follow Mullahs?

Thank you very much.

HP and Urstruly,

Pakistan was created for bettering the lots of Indian Muslims.

You should be happy that with not just Pakistan but also Bangladesh in existence, Indian Muslims have truly found Jannat.

Just imagine how much worse Indian Muslims would have been but for Pakistan! And now Bangladesh!

PS. It is a different story about Balochistan though. Pakistan was NOT created for bettering the lots of Balochi Muslims.

Ref kedarnathji #6

[.... talk like only 8% of the judiciary is Muslim is nice political slogans. One criteria to be a judge is that a person must possess a law degree.]

Actually the Indian Government, in its effort to bend over backward -- or, is that forward? -- to please the Muslim community has gone to the extent of telling the Supreme Court that Sharia courts are a way of lessening the workload of the regular courts.

If Manmohan Singh the Neutered and his Congress have their way, you would just need the Book to End All Books to become a judge.... and be a ``pious`` Muslim.

A couple of years back, the student who topped the MBBS entrance examination in Tamil Nadu was a Muslim girl.

I don`t remember her cribbing about how Society was unfair to her.

She played by the rules of the game and won.

More Muslims ought to think of doing that.