Are Artists Really Mad?

Okay now, there's one girl in my class - a really good artist she is, and she has an extremely beautiful handwriting and has an interest in the arts and everything - but she is quite composed and calm, polite but having a strong point of view. I don't think she's lost her mind or something. She's just like everyone else. The difference between her and other young artists is that her creative skills have been tamed and trained. This is the cutting and pruning children require, to improve their skills. Otherwise, good article.

Yes. Good point raised. Before I read the article I'd like to answer the question in affirmative. After I read the article, I'll see what to say.

Re: # 41

:)

``sigh --mother nature``

mother nature > love is part of mother nature = sigh --love
what kind of part and how crutial: dont know

Hope this clears the mud

Re: # 40
dear raziab 9....you have been successful in confusing me because now i am as clear as mud...smiles...sohail

Re: # 39
sigh --mother nature :D

Re: # 38
Dear raziab9...creativity is part of love and I like what khalil gibran said about love

`don`t you ever think you can guide love. if love finds you worthy, she might guide you`

whnever you are guided by love and creativity please let us know, we might enjoy the gift.

sincerely sohail

Re: # 37

drsohail, creatively will flow anyway (That`s what makes creativity creative) - the matter is how I`d like to control creativity and would ``like`` to choose not to use it
:D

RB

Re: # 36
dear raziab....please let your creativity flow. it would benefit the rest of the world. even

your short letter inspired me to write another letter. sincerely sohail

Dear goodness
I almost wish I did not use my creativity and let it decay [or maybe it is the lack of creativity that i am getting sick of the creativity :-) ]. I`d atleast become a normal individual who didn`t have to sigh but rather breathe and sleep calmly.

Re: # 34
Dear HD....I am of the opinion that most people have

.....rational and logical thought to solve problems....functionaing of the left side of the brain

poets and artists have

.....creative thoughts and images for creative writing and artistic work....functioning of the right side of the brain...from the unconscious

Mystics with meditation try to control the left side so that the right side and unconscious

mind becomes active...it is a mystery

ghalib said

aatain hain ghaib say ye mazameen khiaaal main
ghalib sareer-e-khama nawaa-e- sarosh hay

sincerely sohail

You should propose that `permutations and combinations` be renamed `creations`, since they apparently mean the same :)

Some people feel that creativity `happens` when thought is absent. Not that the brain is asleep. No, its fully awake...but not thinking.
In fact, the whole eastern mysticism is centered around thought control/suppression.

Re: # 32
Dear HD....Yes, computer is creative but the scientist who created computer is more creative...smiles...sohail

DrSohail, your example is good. This is what I meant earlier by permutation and combination of current knowledge.

Take all the chemicals in this world. Try each one singly, then in all possible combinations. Note the results. Pick out the best one. Is this creativity?
If it is, then a computer is far more creative than any human.

A computer can work out all possible combinations in a chess game and beat Kasparov.
Would you call that creativity?

Re: # 30
Dear HD....your psychotherapist friend must have very different practice than mine. I see the most fascinating human beings, artists, writers and health care professionals and i feel as energetic at the end of the day as in the beginning.
As far as creativity is concerned I am still not clear about your association of thinking with memory. I think memory might or might not play a major role in creativity.
Let me share an example and then you give me your opinion
Two doctor friends worked in a sanitorium. Let us call them Dr A and Dr B
Both were incharge of a ward of 20 patients suffering from TB
One day Dr A made an observation that all his patients are depressed while Dr B`s patients are happy palying cards.
He asked DrB why are your patients so happy?
DrB asked....what do you treat your patients with?
Dr A said...Streptomycine
Dr B said I give them Streptomycine but I also give them Isoniazid
When Dr A stareted giving his patients Isoniazid alongside they felt better.
Isoniazid was the beginning of discovery of antidepressants.
How do you think memory played a role in this creativity....scientific discovery?
sincerely sohail

DrSohail, yes psychology is infinitely interesting and really I envy you your field, not your job though.
Listening to nuts and semi-nuts rant for hours, smiling patiently, can reduce tough people to putty. A psychotherapist friend of mine says punishing physical games are the only way he theraputes himself after a days work.

But coming to the issue - creativity, looks like you didnt quite catch my line. Thought can never be creative because its always from the past. If you did we could communicate.

Let me quote from a cartoon book (pearls before swine - stephan pastis). My daughters book. Here`s the introduction.

---

The question I get the most from Pearls readers is - where do you get your ideas.

And the truth is I dont know.

What I do know is that most of the better ones seems to quite literally pop into my head, with the dialogue already written. Its an unbelievable feeling when thats hapenning. Its like all you need do is keep the pen moving.
The converse is also true. When theres nothing, theres nothing.

While the thought process remains a mystery, I have learned that there are certain circumstances that seem to be conducive to creativity than others. For me, the key is total isolation, loud music and coffee.

To make matters even stranger, I periodically go to my bookshelf and read the same sections of the same books over and over.

By the second hour of this, ideas will usually start coming and I`ll lie on the floor and write them all down in a spiral notebook. After about 8 hours of this I usually have a weeks worth of strips.

Re: # 28
Dear Ahad....I agree with you that creative personalities and artists have an imagination

larger than life. But that imagination has to translate into a disciplined work of art.

Unfortunately mental illness can hinder it and they might not be able to put on paper what

they have in mind. I worked with artists in psychiatric hospitals who were so frustrated with

their inability to share their talent with their dear ones and needed professional help.

sincerely sohail

Dear khalid sohail
If the artist is not a Mad,then is not a real artist cos the art is so big and the Life is very short.
Ahad

Re: # 26
Dear HD....can you share how do you feel creativity changes when the medium changes. A

poet creates a poem but a photographer just takes a picture and a scientist spends twenty

years to discover something that even surprises him...

I am fascinated with the complexity of the process as well as the mysteries of the

personality. sincerely sohail

>>>Creative thinking is non-traditional thinking that leads to giving birth to a creative product

You`re defining the item in terms of itself. `A metal is a metallic substance`.
Standalone definitions are hard granted :)

It seems to me that ALL thinking is memory linked. Memory being always old (stored images from the past) there can be no `creative` thinking, only modifications/rearrangements of the past.

IOW, we mistakenly imagine a link between creativity and thinking.

Re: # 24
Dear HD...thanks for your interest in the subject and article...

In my opinion

Memory.....has three parts....Registration....Retention.......Recall

you are right if the incidence is emotionally charged the recall might be modified.

Creative thinking is non-traditional thinking that leads to giving birth to a creative

product...poem, play, painting or a scientific discovery.

If the poet recalls the beautiful face of the charming lady he saw and composes a

wonderful ghazal...we will call it creative otherwise just a fantasy....smiles...sohail

Is creativity the ability to `think differently`, `laterally` and all that?

Before we get to that, we must answer `what is thinking`?

Some thought is simply recollection of memory. Playing it back exactly.

Other thought is playing back memory with `modifications`.
For example if my boss yelled at me today and I listened petrified, later when I recollect that scene I will imagine answering him back, suitably defending myself. 90% reality, 10% fancy.
Another example in this category would be a young man/woman having romantic thoughts about someone they know, which will be 90% fancy, 10% reality
:)

`Work thoughts` are when we`re given a problem to solve and the mind churns through acquired knowledge in memory to find a solution. Either a direct solution or a solution using combination/permutation of memory items.

Is this last item so-called `creativity`?

Creativity in itself has nothing to do with madness. But creativity is a hard task for those who are already psychologically weak. A creative mind actually produces new mental contents that need to be properly organized. Those creative persons who are systemetic and logical, cannot become mad ... because they can systemetically arrange all the newly created mental contents in mind in such way that all the mind-set is always kept in internal harmony. And to maintain internal harmoney sometimes requires great psychological courage also ... especially if deep rooted beliefs are disturbed by the newly generated mental contents.

Thanks!

It is worth noting also: about 1 in 4 people will need psychiatric help at some point in their lives....take a look around your office or family/friends (but be careful or, people will start to look at you in that way too)

And can we really define creativity any more than we can `normalness`??

Re: # 18 Possibly the ability for abstract thought is why Nash experienced his schizophrenia in such a way, allowed the flight of ideas. The schizophrenics I know can express the most fantastical thoughts at times - and all of them are quite intelligent - but their schizophrenia, like is for many, is heartbreakingly debilitating.

Re: # 17
dear HD....I enjoyed your subltle message....why be normal? and smiled,,,...sohail

William Styron died recently, thought that might be of interest.


I tend to agree with chalta and abskii; the human condition is inherently wired for all kinds of madnesses, just as it is creativity-and yet not everyone develops their artistic ability nor do they seek diagnosis.

I also disagree that creativity is linked with addiction any more than it is linked with diabetes, or hypertension, etc. These are constructs we use to mystify the very mundane and laborious process of making art.

I thought that the creative and insane people were alike only in as much as both of them were abnormal - different from the ``normal`` generality of the population - but they were not quite the same. Their abnormailities were of different genre.
John Nash, nobel laureate, had done his monumental creative work before he suffered from schizophrenia. Once he became schizophrenic, he didn`t (couldn`t?) do anything creative. In this sense, Nash, the normal being, was creative and Nash, the schizophrnic being, was not.
``All poets are mad`` is an extreme statement lacking empirical evidence. I can let it pass if it is stated only figuratively. Were Ghalib, Iqbal, and Faiz actually mad? If they were, we need to define madness, insanity, and creativity differently than what is commonly understood.
There is a difference between creativity and insanity and that difference howsoever small is all important. The article is thought provoking and Dr. Sohail needs to be commended for bringing the topical theme out in the open.
Mohammad Gill

Before anyone defines `mad` they must ask what is `normal`.

And if one REALLY, deeply, examines what one assumes to be `normal` i.e a normal life, one cannot escape this conclusion that its these normal that are truly mad.

Sohail Sahib,

It is not only unfortunate that mental illness is so poorly understood but what is even more unfortunate is the stigma attached to it.

While there may be great sympathy for someone with diabetes or cancer, both organic illnesses; there is very little knowledge or sympathy amongst the masses for people with mental illnesses such as lets say schizophrenia or depression. Mental and Physical ailments are both organic in nature, yet physical ailments elicit a sympathetic reaction in most people whereas mental illness revulsion and blame towards the person afflicted..

Now that`s Unfortunate! Dont you think?

Depression is usually called the ``writer`s malady`` but most people think that clinical depression on its own or as a component of manic depressive illness is something that one can just snap out of.....

People say, ``If you are depressed, just snap out of it``. There is no such thing like that for clinical malingering depression.

Sohail Sahib,
I appreciate that you have recognized that the title of your article maybe percieved as insensitive.

``The idea that creativity and insanity are inter-related..`` indeed they are...

prime example creator God and His insane Universe -- as Naqshbandi sahib would surely agree......or an insane God with His creative Universe as Dr. Gill would probably concur......:)

great piece Sohail sahib as usual!

#12> In fact, there is a school of thought that suggests everyone has a tendancy to some sort of mental disorder to a greater or lesser extent. This often presents itself in times of stress or breakdown.

What constitutes madness is somthing perpetually under debate, -generally a level of dysfunction that causes the individual, property, or the onlooker harm or distress. (personally not something I believe, but it`s a basic threshold).

Sometimes I wonder if being an artist and radical and being Khassi are same.

No offence, but most of the artsy people are in love with each other.

What is madness? Is not thinking coherently madness?

I guess artists are intense, so much so that some times they cross the threshold.

Re: # 9
Dear Shore sahib.... Thank you for your interesting feedback. I feel creativity, insanity and

spirituality might have some similarities and also have some differences. As science

evolves we would be able to understand better. It is unfortuante that some people who

suffer from mental illnesses are not offered psychiatric treatment the way people with

medical illnesses are offered medical treatment so that they can choose to take or not take

the needed treatment. I did not mean to be respectful by the title. Thanks for bringing to

my attention. sincerely sohail

Re: # 7
dear khalid....you have an interesting question. Some creative personalities feel that using

some drugs inspired them for a while but then overusing it made it worse. In some people

alcohol disinhibits them and they can be creative in the area of their interest. I have not

read anything about charas. Thanks for your interest....sohail

The article is good, Khalid Sahib

I wish your title was more sensitive?

People with Mental Illness are not ``Mad``.

Actually most people who ARE really mad in my opinion and commit really bad acts such as crimes are perfectly sane in the clinical way.

The one illness that is the mainstay of the connection between creativity and mental illness is Bipolar or Manic Depressive Disorder. Many people who are afflicted with this illness may appear to be bizaare, eccentric and what have you, but are hardly mad.....

Creativity is not just limited to art, but is the fountainhead of all innovation in human societies.

Inventors, Writers, Lawyers, Doctors, Surgeons, Scientists, Architects, Musicians, Chefs, Mothers, Fathers, are all creative beings........

I guess its the level of creativity that differs between all these people from all walks of life....

The mental high felt by Sufi Mystics through out ages would be considered Mania by today`s psychiatrists.........

What ignorant arabs believed to be divine revelations 1400 some years ago would be considered by many to be the ramblings of a very gifted poet well versed in Judeochristian traditions....and I am not saying whether they are or they are not........

Whether a person is experience spirit possession or psychosis is a matter of opinion and the cultural frame of reference....

One Man`s Spirit`s Possession is Another Man`s Psychosis easily cured by some Strong AntiPsychotics and Sedatives....HOLY Water or not.......Quranic Verses or Not......Jharoos or Dum ka Paani or NOT........

You can creative people are rather emotional. These are the people who consider them mad and then eventually make them mad.

Interesting article; well written and supported with the sources.

One question for Dr. Sahib. Do the drugs also induce creativity. I have heard that using charas is a great way to embark upon the journey towards unknown. Is it true?

It is self aggrandizing concept among the literati. No scientific basis for it. Much like the self-inflicted starving-artist syndrome.

Re: # 3
Dear Naqshbandi....creativity and insanity have been discussed in the books of poetry,

philosophy and mythology in the past. It is only in 20th century that science is taking lead

in these areas. Research is in infancy but there have been some breakthroughs to help

people with mental illness and decrease their suffering. Evidence is pointing that creativity

and mental illness has some connection and can run in the same families. Obviously further

research is needed to prove the hypothesis. Artists like Virginia Woolf, Ernest Hemingway

and Vincent Van Gogh are some examples of that tragedy.Thanks for your

interest....sincerely sohail

Re: # 2

monroe was killed by the kennedys.
or the mafia. or both. depends which book you read about her!

An interesting and refreshingly different article but is their any empirical evidence to prove that madness and artisitic genius are related?

For every example you can give me of one, I can give you another to prove opposite.

Long ago reading psychology of soldiering, I read a book, `Anatomy of Courage` by Lord Moran. He was a Britich doctor with the frontline troops in WW1. One of his basic theories was that courage could be spent and there was a thin line between courage and cowardice. In short he meant that courage connected to emotions, high flow of andraline hormones etc was not replenishable.
Sensitive people are creative and loners. See our very own Roohi Bano, a Post Graduate in psychology and the mental wreck that she is in. There is also the case of Parveen Boby and Maralyn Manroe. Both committed suicide in depression.

Vey recently an A Level student of mine killed herself. She could write descriptive essays of um matchable prowess and deep down was very sensitive. She went on drugs and then died when she was hardly 20.

People such as them sap away from their resevoirs till they run out.

Lets admire and pray for them

``if we cured the artists of their nuroses, would they no longer be able to create?``

A good article, raising valid points. A friend of mine, diagnosed with bi-polar disorder, took the decicion to stop taking any medication because he found it stunted his creativity so much that he was unable to earn a living (he makes special effects).
Maybe the acceptance of abstract sensations allows the person to explore them, where they would otherwise tell themselves to not `be silly`. -talking with one of my most `ill` clients, he launches into the most complex and creative lines of thought that are difficult to keep up with (but brilliant nonetheless).

keep it up!