India-Pakistan talks: the endless cycle

I am only calling a spade a spade...

Re: # 487 Zeemax

I take back my comment about discrimination against Ismailis. Looks like they deserve it.

Re: # 488 Manto

Poor prattler, how thou talk`st!

Re:manto#488

[...I suppose when you are the follower of the Exclusivist Racist Casteist Hindu fascist bigot Gandhi ...]

Yaaawwwwnnn!! There are already 488 interacts to this article. You came in rather late to the party here to begin another typpical 400 interact puke session with your trademark bold fonted insults to Gandhi. You might want to consider Gill sahib`s board or someother board higher up on the homepage for these antics.

You know it is just damn right disappointing to return to chowk after an absence and find BJKumar, the Hindu equivalent akin to the fat Nazi from American History X, and similarly motivated Hindu fascists still trying to impose on chowk populace his regurgitation of Gandhian defaecation.

I suppose when you are the follower of the Exclusivist Racist Casteist Hindu fascist bigot Gandhi ... that truly bigoted little Hindu fanatic who believed that black people were subhuman and caste system was the true expression of humanity.... you need to repeat your hogwash again and again.

Somethings will never change.

#485 by subhashjoshi

I thought you were only unhappy about the four witnesses law. Are there any other you wish us to amend?

A supporter of political party Sunni Tehrik kicks a poster of Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf during an anti-government rally in Karachi December 3, 2006. Islamist parties in Pakistan are demanding to scrap a bill that curtails the scope of Islamic laws on rape. REUTERS/Athar Hussain (PAKISTAN)

Re: # 484 zeemax

Once a pakistani always a pakistani. Read #479 and #483 was just Hello and Goodbye, but you chose to call that ``mirchi lagna``. Hahaha. My bad.

For other three please count your three 472, 473, 478.

But why do you maintain a STUDIED silence on other LAWS in that godforsaken hellhole that you fondly call Pakistan? Are they allegations out of thin air?

#479-483 by subhashjoshi (yes ... all five of them)

I didn`t relize that #472 would act like that much of a red chilli ... sorry.

But what can I say in response to either of above since you yourself admit in one of these that you don`t have any sources of your own; that frankly you don`t care; that you don`t think you have time to read who and how many were killed in a godforsaken place called Bajaur. And despite all that, you continue to make allegations. Out of thin air?

Indeed, what can I say. You`re right about that!

Cheers ...

Anyways yaar, don`t take it to heart. You have your problems, we have ours. Chowk is just a TP.

Bye for today. Enjoy your skirmishes at other thread.

Re: # 472

Please keep your hanky to wipe your crocodile tears about some Indian women getting a baton or two, when terrorists trained by your ISI are killing and maiming women, making them widows or orphans every other day, and you and your countrymen think about Jihad being a legitimate weapon. Also, think about the women killed by Taliban in Afghanistan with full backing of your glorious army. Buy two more hankies.

Re: # 478 Zeemax

I saw pictures of hordes of Mad Mullahs tearing their beards over repealing of something called hudood shudood. Is it that? If so, then how long will Praiz Musharraf take to buckle under, any guess?

Re: # 472 Zeemax

Now you are clutching at straws.

1) So no women died at Bajaur bombing? Congrats! Well done!

And no, I don`t have any sources of my own. Frankly, I don`t care. You think I have time to read who and how many were killed in a godforsaken place called Bajaur?

2) They did, did they? Good yaar, phattey chak diye aapney to.

3) Arrey, when you can post a months old picture, can`t I mention a law that existed till yesterday afternoon? (Now I know you will say No it was amended on Thursday 3:47 pm). But, congrats, again.

Nau sau choohey kha ke sahi
Billi haj ko chali to sahi.

4) You are silent about what would YOU want policemen to do when a mob is attacking a bus or train in which YOUR sister was travelling? Also, what about Ismailis/Qadiani thing? What about blasphemy laws? Are these laws still in place? What about your Chief Executioner`s Canadian Visa remarks? Why don`t you say something about that Zeemax bhai saheb?

Re: # 478 Zeemax

Hohoho....I am here to bask in the sunshine of your erudition. But first give me some time to go thru all the posts since yesterday.

#477 by CoolAL

I thought that the law was amended to require only two witnesses now as opposed to 4. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Ok please stand corrected. The effect of the amendment is to remove rape from the hudood ordinance altogether and place it in the regular penalc code where it can be prosecuted like any other crime through an FIR lodged by the victim.

P.S. Please tell Mr. Joshi as well as he wasn`t aware of this development ...

---

3) LAW demanding FOUR MALE WITNESSES

What law? It doesn`t exist anymore. Do you read the news? It has been amended NOT to require any such thing. Besides whatever excuse for a law it was, it was neither voted in by representatives of the people, nor debated in the country. It was an ordinance by a sole person i.e. the military dictator appropriately named Zina(bil jabr)-ul-Haq.

---

I thought that the law was amended to require only two witnesses now as opposed to 4. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Re: # 475


I do not know the exact literal meaning. Maybe I am wrong. But I have always thought of a Mufakkar as someone who has traits common to intellectuals and academics both, without falling completely in any of these categories. Kind of difficult to convey...

Re: # 470

Dear Okhla,

The word murfker is an offensive word to me (as I understood it).

I responded to the offesinve meaning it conveyed. No normal human being takes a word that demeans the status of mothers. Woman is the mother of this world. I dont want to hear such words that pulls down the status of mother.

If u think I did it (respond that way) intentionally, yes I admit I did it inorder to uphold a mother`s honour. If u think I am guilty, yes I am, for mother`s sake. Full Stop.

Again, I need to know the meaning of this word. Since u wrote it, I want the meaning of that word from u.

Thanks.

#473 by zeemax

Thank you for proving my point. It was a Lady Police Officer assigned to oversee women`s protests. Not some swarthy darogas assigned to manhandle college girls and aim for their `buxom bums`.

Oh come on now! Will you now say a lady police officer tearing off a woman`s clothing is better than a policeman hitting a woman with a lathi? And are you arguing that there are no Paki policemen who hit women? If it is so, I have nothing more to argue with you.

#471 by harish_hyd

Thank you for proving my point. It was a Lady Police Officer assigned to oversee women`s protests. Not some swarthy darogas assigned to manhandle college girls and aim for their `buxom bums`.

And you may ask Asma Jehangir how many lady police officers she hit since you`re at it. She`s kind of famous for doing that and provoking altercations for good copy.

#462/463 by subhashjoshi

Mr. Joshi, you need to straighten-up on your facts before you start to twist them....

1) And think of those sisters who died in Bajaur bombing.

Did any woman die in the Bajaur bombing? Perhaps according to your sources though not mine. Besides, your friends are crying hoarse it was the Americans who did it to Pak.

2) Your police doesn`t raise its precious finger anywhere. Not when Mukhtar Mai is punished by ancient Jirga.

Yes they did. All were arrested and jailed, then bailed out by High Court, then jailed again by no less than the Supreme Court through direct intervention in the case.

3) LAW demanding FOUR MALE WITNESSES

What law? It doesn`t exist anymore. Do you read the news? It has been amended NOT to require any such thing. Besides whatever excuse for a law it was, it was neither voted in by representatives of the people, nor debated in the country. It was an ordinance by a sole person i.e. the military dictator appropriately named Zina(bil jabr)-ul-Haq.

4) Where is my hanky, please?

Here it is ... do wipe off the tears of your ignorance ...

#459 by zeemax

And yes, female students do protest on the streets all the time in Pak (e.g. the protests outside Governor House in Lahore over hostel facilities this year which shut down not only Governor House but the entire Mall Road as well), but the police dare not raise a finger against our sisters. No police may dare strike a woman on the street in Pakistan.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_15-5-2005_pg7_14

Excerpt:

``The police targeted my clothes. A lady police officer told me they had orders to be strict and to tear off the participant’s clothes,” said Jahangir, adding that she would lodge a complaint against the police officials who tore her clothes and hit her.``

Re: # 469


Very very VRV,

Once again you have been caught with your pants down. Reacting irrationally because you ``had to``. Remember your ``perforce`` post a few days back? Why do you just ``have to`` spew venom without any rational basis???? Some introspection is required. Is it not ??

To me VRV & Behram represent identical mindsets (full of animosity and hatred towards each other). They will lose no opportunity to grab each others throat on the slightest (and often false) pretences. Our subcontinent has suffered, continues to suffer because of these bigoted mindsets.

If educated Indians and Pakistanis cannot engage in civilised debate, should we really expect our politicians, militaries or Mullahs/ RSS to do any better???

Re: # 468

Dear Okhla,

I dont know the meaning if the word is a Urdu/Persian one. It sounded sooooo offensive and I had to respond the way I did.

I need to know its meaning.



CHOWK STAFF:

PL DO DELETE MY POSTS 466 & 467

Thanks.

Little knowledge is a dangerous thing indeed.

As advised by Mark Twain `` Before you proceed to twist & distort your facts, please get them straight.``


Very very VRV-- please google ``mufakkar``. Before you start spouting senseless invective like Behram.

Re: # 466 (REVISED)

Re: # 465

Okhla/Zeemax,

I am very clear by now abt u and religion and/or ur upbringing. If Okhla is the nick-name of Zeemax then this`s my last post that wud contain the names of Okhla or Zeemax. (I am however reserving the right to batter u guys without naming u as and when the opportunity is given).

Any normal person with a normal upbringing - irrespective of religious affiliation - wud not even think of such a word murfker. We see swines actually performing murfking .....not human beings.

Okhla/Zeemax, if u grew up doing that murfking, then u are a pariah to me. If ur Prophet is a murfker & u think that murfking is a normal thing then u and ur Prophet are beneath contempt to me. Btw, I know that ur last Prophet is the child molestor and rapist. Ur UnHoly Book had the record of his waywardness. If it`s a normal thing in Pakistan, then Pakistan`d die it`s natural death for nurturing such thoughts on mothers.

THINKING THAT MATING MOTHER IS A NORAML THING, U...OKHLA/ZEEMAX, THEN UR WIFE MUST BE UR MOTHER.

U AND UR COUNTRY....THOOOOOO...

Re: # 465

Okhla/Zeemax,

I am very clear by now abt u and religion and/or ur upbringing. If this name a nick of Zeemax then this`s my last post that wud contain the names of Okhla and Zeemax. I am however reserving the right to batter u guys without naming u as and when the opportunity is given u.

Any normal person with a normal upbringing - irrespective of religious affiliation - wud not even think of such a word murfker. We see swines doing it.....no human beings.

Okhla/Zeemax, if u grew up doing that murfking, then u are a pariah. If ur Prophet is a murfker & u think that murfking is a normal thing then u and ur Prophet are beneath contempt to me. Btw, I know that ur last Prophet is the child molestor and rapist. Ur UnHoly Book had the record of his waywardness. If it`s a normal thing in Pakistan, then Pakistan`d die it`s natural death for nurturing such thoughts on mothers.

THINKING THAT MATING MOTHER IS A NORAML THING, U...OKHLA, THEN UR WIFE MUST BE UR MOTHER. U AND UR COUNTRY....THOOOOOO...

Re: # 461

Respected murfker VRV,

Both countries have their own set of a$$holes. Both countries also have a huge bunch of decent people, perfectly capable of living peacefully & joyfully together

Pakistan 2020 will be rocking. So will India 2020.

Inspite of Behram or harimau or Krishna.

Re: # 458
Respected murfker VRV

I do not need any certificates from you or Behram. I will speak my mind. Sometimes
you will feel I am biased. Sometimes you would agree with me.

But , please believe me, I am not playing to any gallery. I sincerely believe that both India and Pakistan should get their act together and beat the crap out of the ills that plague both countries. Simple economic progress is the solution.
And most love-days like Krishna & Behram (and even you at times) are best ignored.

Johny Walker and I wish you the best...

Re: # 459 Zeemax

Zeemax saheb, unfortunately I don`t have any photograph of your LAW demanding FOUR MALE WITNESSES for valiantly protecting the honour of your womenfolk. But then do you really need a photograph?

And I am not disgusted at you. I know, being a Pakistani, prevarication and hypocricy is second nature to you.

Re: # 459 Zeemax


I didn`t know I will be in for such a long homily when I come back this evening.

Zee bhai, let me first tell you, any police ahalkaar, worth his salt, will not hold his lathi in this manner, if he were going to do pitai of anybody in earnest. This is #1.

Now #2. Do you know what exactly those students were doing at that time. Protesting, but how? Suppose your or my sister is travelling in a bus or train and an angry mob tries to set it on fire. Or pelt stones on windows. Then? Think of that.

Last, but not least, #3 : Police didn`t open fire on them. So don`t get too emotional. And think of those sisters who died in Bajaur bombing. Where is my hanky, please?

Please post some more photos that you preserved because they tear your heart and not to attack Indians. Gujarat riots, for instance.


``.....but the police dare not raise a finger against our sisters. No police may dare strike a woman on the street in Pakistan.``

Your police doesn`t raise its precious finger anywhere. Not when Mukhtar Mai is punished by ancient Jirga, not when a girl is killed for family honour. So please stop singing mother/sister song.

Dear Zee,

Why dont tu drill some of the wisdom u wrote in the last two posts into the stone-head of bH??

Rgds,

...contd....#459

....and Joshi saheb, just your macho cynicism in saying `` how far is the cane from the buxom bum`` is an insult to womanhood. Do you even realise that? It is disgusting. These students are the future of your country ... and you dismiss and justify putting down their protest as the cane not being near enough to their `buxom bums`?

Disgusting.

#446 by subhashjoshi Re: # 445

Anyways, please pull out a side view picture from your album so I can guess how far is the cane from the buxom bum. I will be in a better position to tell you whether it is against the law or not, and if yes, then how much.

Joshi Saheb, I`ll tell you this much. This picture tore my heart out which is why I preserved it and not to attack Indians. I don`t have a side view so I can`t say (as you put it) how far is the lathi from the poor girl`s bum, but all I can say is that the way the poor girl is taking panicky evasive action is proof she`s either been hit or scared of being hit. It could easily have been yours or mine sister. Would you tolerate that? When I had said this earlier when one of your compatriots (muqaddam) claimed the ``daroga`` was just `guiding` the student, my response same as above got me banned.

And yes, female students do protest on the streets all the time in Pak (e.g. the protests outside Governor House in Lahore over hostel facilities this year which shut down not only Governor House but the entire Mall Road as well), but the police dare not raise a finger against our sisters. No police may dare strike a woman on the street in Pakistan.

456 by CoolAL

Do you also think a site like chowk will benefit from a deluge of ``Interesting`` pictures from the ``Pureland``?

This is not a tar and feathering contest. Even if it was, you would lose. The picture you people paint of India, and the one of Pak is simply incorrect, and that is offensive to us. You can produce images of poverty but never of state oppression of women in Pak, while In retaliation, if we start to paint the real picture of India, it will be very ugly.

The point is not to outdo each other in ridicule. The point is, we both have problems, so let`s agree on resolving problems on each side instead of proving who is worse.

Though belated, brother Okhla showed some propriety/concern; thanks bro.

Subhash, u had a grrrrrreat sense of humour.

Re: # 455 Okhla99

(.....But humour is a potent tool against a strong adversary. ...)

Hmmmmm..strong adversary. Yeah, he is thick-skinned and stone headed. And his behind is so battle-hardened. He also has typical Pakistani jaundiced eyes and a forked tongue. His nose is disfunct thanks to smelling too much sewage. All this makes him a very strong adversary.

Zeemax,

Just a simple question for you, do you want us -- the baaad hindooooos from the hindooooooland -- to mount a concerted effort to drown this site with ``Interesting`` pictures from the ``pureland``? Or about the ``Pure people`` in general?

Or, do you believe that we cannot find any dirt on the ``pureland`` and the ``pure people``?

Do you also think a site like chowk will benefit from a deluge of ``Interesting`` pictures from the ``Pureland``?

Behram Bhai,

Now your last few posts appear to be pathetically bigoted. Even SubhashJoshi has come up with a joke- sick though it is. But humour is a potent tool against a strong adversary. You
unfortunately have started mad ravings and rantings.

Fight back with rational posts. Or stay away.

Re: # 445 Zeemaxzee

(............I`m really curious to know, since such police brutality against female students is unthinkable even in your barbaric Pakiland. Grateful for your as well as Behram`s views. )


Hahaha....Behram`s views. Look at #449.

``choutia gandoo hindoo subhashjoshi: ``

That`s the VIEWS of Pakistanis.

#451 Behram1

``.....Of course Garbage In Hindoo Out in Hindoo Land``


Hahahaha. Looks like joker`s act is not going to be over anytime soon.

Anyway, here is a little page from Behram`s biography........


Behram`s daddy owned a sausage factory and the technology he used was SOOOOOO advanced, he told Behram, that they put one live pig at one end and sausages came out at the other end.

Being the Highly Thinking Mind type that he always was, unlike rotelearning heengsmelling squattingbytherailroadtrack Hindoos, Behram asked, Dad, aint there sometin like you know you push sausage in and get a pig out?

And Dad said, why, of course, son, you are an example!

#445 by zeemax on December 2, 2006 3:07am PT


since such police brutality against female students is unthinkable even in your barbaric Pakiland.


Really...and what about all the bengali women who got canadian visas..without anyone being prosecuted for it, I might add...

Hindoo of Hindoo Land are at each other`s throat. Of course Garbage In Hindoo Out in Hindoo Land

The behaviour of Kerala and Tamil Nadu on the one hand and Maharashtra and Karnataka on the other has shown that the commission’s points were only a pious hope. The states remain primarily parochial in their attitude. Probably, the redrawing of boundaries on the basis of language was a mistake. It has only increased the chances of confrontation.

It is apparent that political parties have tried to play with the people’s sentiments in the name of the mother tongue. Their purpose is selfish: electoral gains. Take the attitude of the BJP. When the nation was worried over the petulance of Kerala and Tamil Nadu, the BJP organised rallies in Delhi. It had no concern about the challenge to the nation’s coherence. The party’s purpose was to communalise the atmosphere — something in which it was adept.

And this is what Kuldip Nayar writes

Re: # 448

bHaraami,

JOKER.....hehehehehehehe.......LOL*LOL*LOL


Keep the circus going JOKER......hehehehe.

Re: # 444by subhashjoshi on December 1, 2006 11:39pm PT

choutia gandoo hindoo subhashjoshi:

Just accept the fact that Hindoo Land is the evil land where humanity is destroyed every 77 minutes.

Just accept the fact that Hindoo Land is the evil land where minorities are tormented because of their religious values.

Just accept the fact that Hindoo Land is the evil land where caste system is still prevailing, where you will never have an egalitarian system of governance.

Just accept the fact that Hindoo Land is in violation of Human Rights as recently passed by the United nations.

Your Hindoo Land`s values are filthy, and being from Hindoo Land you have no moral authority.

Hindoos of Hindoo land are the modern day hate mongers of this world. They have developed a society of cheaters, which they are erroneously calling it middle class. Every 77 minutes a women is burning because these meritocratic hindoos, these old furnitures of some corporation is asking for dowry which the bride`s parents can not afford.

Hindoos from Hindoo Land are shameless. They just kill its minorities all over Hindoo Land. Yes, they have quantity on their side, but they have no moral authority. Hindoos of Hindoo Land are not authentic.

Sooner rather than later, the world must come to the rescue of those downtrodden people in Hindoo Land. This world should become enlightened and save the majority of the dalit population of Hindoo Land.

The values of these Hindoos from Hindoo Land is not the values of the enlightened world.

Re: # 445

(.......since such police brutality against female students is unthinkable even in your barbaric Pakiland)

Are there really any female students in Pakistan? And if there are, can you EVER imagine them coming out on streets against ANYTHING? I mean, any damn littlest issue.

Come on, can the ``female students`` of Pakistan protest against the so called honour killings? (Hint answer : Well they could, if they weren`t dead. Hahaha.)

Re: # 445

(zeemaxzee photo service : Patna: Bharti riyasat Bihar mein medical ke talib ki rally par ***can`t read*** ke dauran ek police ka ahalkaar talib ko lathi se peet raha hai)


Hahaha. So how many times you have to dig this photo out of your Bad Hindoo album? I am sure you have kept some space in your cupboard for The Bajaur Bombing or The Bugti Lynching or The Dhaka Debauchery albums. Or have you already buried those skeletons in your backyard?

Anyways, please pull out a side view picture from your album so I can guess how far is the cane from the buxom bum. I will be in a better position to tell you whether it is against the law or not, and if yes, then how much.

And don`t forget to post that all time favorite : Gujrat album.

#444 by subhashjoshi

But another equally true fact is that all these evils are against the law of the hindooland.

Joshi Saheb, is this against or within the law of the hindooland?



I`m really curious to know, since such police brutality against female students is unthinkable even in your barbaric Pakiland. Grateful for your as well as Behram`s views.

Thanks ~

Re: # 438 Okhla

Guruji, the evils of Indian society as mentioned by your brother Behram1 PhD of Nadirshaw Chatterjee University of Karachi are very real. In fact he could have counted many more. Yes Sir. But another equally true fact is that all these evils are against the law of the hindooland. On the other hand, in Pakistan it is the LAW OF THE LAND that asks for 4 male witnesses of rape. It is the LAW OF THE LAND that discriminates against minorities. It is the LAW OF THE LAND that demands that an Ismaili or whatever is not a true muslim. It is the LAW OF THE LAND that orders christians to be hanged for some innocuous remarks.

OK? You get the difference?

In India the minorities and dalits can bring a whole city to halt just because someone damaged a statue. It shows how powerful they are politically. Can any minorities in Pakistan dare squeak against all the injustices, hangings, burnings, rapes? Your Chief Henchman can get away with famous Canadian Visa remarks. How nice of you guys! And you are talking to us about the evils of our society!

60 years are not enough to eradicate all the evils of a society. It takes many more generations to change people`s mindset. First you need laws to change that. But when your constitution provides for continuation of atrocities against its own people, there can`t be any hope.

Anyway, keep the Circus going. I hope it gets more and more hilarious with time.

didn`t i say earlier....this beharam jamadar and wanna be hi fi engineer is serious entertainment.

But VRV, I still find him better than other pakistanis. at least people like him, HP, urstruly etc are open about their hate for India. They do not hide behind the garb of friendship and admiration for indians like YLH and okhla and secretly hate indians.

and beharam jamadar.....great going sir....do not let india and indians screwing pakistan stop you from spreading hate and filth all over the world.

rgds,

devkant.

Disputes between India and Pakistan arose also over the princely states of Junagadh, Hyderabad, and Kashmir. In the first two, Muslim rulers held sway over a Hindu majority but India forcibly joined both states to the Union, dismissing the wishes of the rulers and basing its claims instead on the wishes of the people and the facts of geography. In Kashmir the situation was precisely the opposite; a Hindu ruler held sway over a Muslim majority in a country that was geographically and economically tied to West Pakistan. The ruler signed over Kashmir to India in Oct., 1947, but Pakistan refused to accept the move. Fighting broke out (see India-Pakistan Wars) and continued until Jan., 1948, when India and Pakistan both appealed to the United Nations, each accusing the other of aggression. A cease-fire was agreed upon and a temporary demarcation line partitioned (1949) the disputed state.

If you want to learn more on how the Hindoos of Hindoo Land screwed Pakistan, here is the link (of course, this is only for your reading enjoyment, and for your enlightenment)

Grim News for Hindoo land:

Even a small further increase in infection rate could mean that up to 25 million Indians contract HIV in the coming years.

Yasser Latif Hamdani in his iLog talks about Abdus Salam, the Pakistani Nobel laureate.

Here is a companion article from ``The Hindu`` in distant Chennai.

[http://www.hindu.com/2006/11/30/stories/2006113004621000.htm

The scientist Pakistan chose to forget

Nirupama Subramanian

Abdus Salam`s 10th death anniversary saw a small but earnest campaign for undoing the injustice to a man held in high esteem by the scientific community worldwide but virtually unknown in Pakistan.

THE TIMING seems right. Pakistan has made bold to amend the controversial Zia-ul-Haq era Hudood Ordinances for the better; President Pervez Musharraf says he wants to get rid of obscurantism and make Pakistan a nation of ``enlightened moderates.`` He even visited a Hindu temple in Karachi recently. Taking the President at his word, admirers, followers and friends of Abdus Salam now want him to take an even bolder step — honour the Nobel Laureate who continues to be denied recognition by his country because the Ahmediyya sect to which he belonged is, in the eyes of law, ``non-Muslim.``

Dr. Salam died on November 21, 1996 in England at the age of 70. By then, he had lived abroad for many years retaining his Pakistani nationality until the very end. Before his death, he expressed a wish to be buried in Rabhwa in the Punjab province, where Pakistan`s Ahmediyya sect has its headquarters. His wish was fulfilled, but not without a bizarre twist. A magistrate, out to enforce the law, had the word ``Muslim`` erased from the inscription on the tombstone which said: ``Abdus Salam The First Muslim Nobel Laureate.`` What remained read thus: ``Abdus Salam The First Nobel Laureate``(!) A comical outcome, if it were not so tragic. Later, the name of the town was changed to Chenab Nagar.

This last week, the 10th anniversary of his death, saw a small but earnest campaign — so far confined to mainstream English newspapers — for undoing the injustice to a man held in high esteem by the scientific community worldwide but virtually unknown in Pakistan.

The world famous physicist`s story should have been an inspiring tale of success of a small-town boy who shone because of his sheer brilliance, going from school to college in Lahore and then to Cambridge where he got a double first in Mathematics and Physics in 1949 and later a Ph.D. The Nobel Prize came in 1979, Dr. Salam sharing it with Sheldon Glashow and Steven Weinberg ``for their contribution in the theory of the unified weak and electromagnetic interaction between elementary particles, including inter alia, the prediction of the weak neutral current.``

But he finds just a passing mention in school textbooks and children are generally taught nothing about him. Pervez Hoodbhoy, physicist, commentator, and close associate of Dr. Salam, speaking a year after his death, said: ``Fake heroes are to be found spattered all over the place but Salam is never to be found.``

The scientist left the country in 1954 when the violent beginnings of an anti-Ahmediyya movement coincided with his appointment as lecturer in Cambridge. He took his intention of setting up a centre for research in theoretical physics (in Pakistan) to Trieste in Italy, where he founded the International Centre for Theoretical Physics in 1964. He continued to be its director until 1994. The ICTP was dedicated to science education in the developing world and in 1997, on his first death anniversary, was named after him.

Through ICTP, Dr. Salam reached out to budding physicists in Pakistan for whom he set up scholarships from his award monies. A firm believer that developing countries needed to invest more in education, particularly in the sciences, he also founded the Third World Academy of Sciences.

In the early years, he continued to be associated with Pakistan in many capacities, helping to prepare the building blocks of the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission, serving as its member and also as a member of the Scientific Commission of Pakistan, and as Chief Scientific Adviser to the President of Pakistan.

But he resigned in 1974 after the National Assembly adopted the Second Amendment Bill that declared Ahmediyyas as a non-Muslim minority, when Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was the Prime Minister. Also known as Qadianis, the Ahmediyyas are followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed, a 19th century religious leader. Orthodox Muslims say Ahmediyyas reject the belief that Prophet Mohammed was the last prophet, and are thus non-Muslims. Ahmediyyas are not permitted in mosques and they cannot call themselves Muslim. Pakistan`s blasphemy law hangs over the community — as indeed it does over all minorities — like the proverbial sword of Damocles.

But Dr. Salam considered himself a Muslim, and religion was as much a part of him as physics. Writing in remembrance of the scientist, Khalid Hassan, Washington correspondent of the Daily Times, who was then the press secretary to Bhutto, recalled that the Prime Minister had asked Dr. Salam why he had resigned. Dr. Salam`s reply was he could not possibly continue after his entire community had been declared non-Muslim.

``But Salam, that`s all politics,`` Bhutto told him adding, ``Give me time; I will change it, believe me.`` Salam said to Bhutto: ``All right, Zulfi, write it down on a piece of paper and it will remain between the two of us, forever and always.`` According to Hassan, Bhutto`s reply was ``classic Bhutto``: ``Salam, I can`t do that. I`m a politician.``

Dr. Salam`s life mission was fighting the prejudice against science in the Islamic world, and to get Muslim countries to invest in science education. He even wanted to start an Islamic Science Foundation, the funds of which would be pooled in by Muslim countries. In Hassan`s account, the scientist visited every Muslim capital in the world after his Nobel, asking them to set aside one per cent of their GNP for scientific education. He found no takers. Instead, in Libya, he was whisked off his plane to meet Col. Gaddafi, who asked him if he could make him a nuclear bomb. ``I am not that kind of a scientist,`` Salam replied, and Gaddafi lost interest in him immediately.

After winning the Nobel, Dr. Salam visited his home country where Islamic references in a speech he gave were deleted. Of course, India made sure he got a warmer welcome when he went to meet his primary school teacher.

Earlier this week, the Daily Times said Pakistan ``needs to feel guilty about what it has done to the greatest scientist it ever produced in comparison to the lionisation of Dr. A.Q. Khan who has brought ignominy and the label of ``rogue state`` to Pakistan by selling the country`s nuclear technology for personal gain.``

Corrective steps

Pakistan did take some tentative corrective steps. In 1998, a commemorative stamp was issued in his name as part of a series of stamps honouring the scientists of Pakistan and Government College, Lahore, his alma mater — now a university — has named a department after him.

Farhatullah Babar, a senior leader of the Pakistan People`s Party, writing in The News recalled that in January 1996 when Dr. Salam`s friends organised a function to honour him — he was already terminally ill — on his 70th birthday in Islamabad, there were objections that it would amount to ``defaming Pakistan.`` According to Mr. Babar, when the press clippings about the objections were put up to Benazir Bhutto, then Prime Minister, she sent the file back with ``Rubbish`` written on it, and the function was held. She also wrote him a letter greeting him on his birthday and recalling his services to science and Pakistan ``which will never be forgotten.``

But Dr. Hoodbhoy has referred to another incident in 1988, when Dr. Salam waited two days in a hotel room in Islamabad to meet Ms. Bhutto during her first tenure as Prime Minister. ``Suddenly the phone rang and Salam`s face momentarily lit up. Then I saw his face fall as BB`s secretary told him that the meeting had been called off.``

Clearly, there is a feeling that mere tokenism is not enough to honour Dr. Salam`s memory and that a grand gesture is important not just for the scientist but in the context of increasing and violent sectarianism in Pakistan, and the widespread acknowledgment that it has done great harm to the nation`s fabric. No one is yet talking of scrapping the Second Amendment but in an editorial, the Daily Times asked: ``Can we redeem ourselves by doing something in Dr. Salam`s memory on this 10th anniversary of his passing that would please his soul and cleanse ours?``

There is little reason to be optimistic that this will happen as even Pakistan`s scientific community, with few exceptions, does not support the idea. Just last week at a function organised to remember Dr. Salam at the National Centre for Science in Islamabad`s Qauid-e-Azam University, when Dr. Hoodbhoy spoke about how no streets or institutions in Pakistan were named after the scientist, whereas those who had perfected reverse engineering were famous, a prominent scientist walked out and later asked him: ``What did Dr. Salam do for Pakistan?``

Says Dr. Hoodbhoy: ``It relates to a very deep problem in Pakistan, and it`s not going to go away unless we go back to the way it was before 1974.``

But then did anyone imagine that the 1979 Hudood Ordinances would one day be changed?]

But in reality, is Chennai really that distant? After all, wasn`t Subrahmanyam Chandrasekhar born in Lahore, Prof. Abdus Salam`s hometown? Punjab thus has the unique distinction of having produced two Nobel laureates in Physics, a feat that is probably unmatched by any other city in the Indian subcontinent.

PS. So tell us, Behram Atashband, exactly what kind of affirmative action produced a Muslim Nobel laureate?

Re: # 438

Brother Okhla,

When u first jumped into the ring, I thought it was a genuine concern for standards but after seeing ur selective intervention and toning down Indians and soft-pedaling bH, I am of the opinion that ur concern is spurious.

As for dowry system, it`s followed in `some` states but by people of `all religions`. If ur Arab masters give money to buy girls, Indian women (Hindus+Muslims=Christians, I dont know abt Sikhs) do it otherway round. It`s, like cicumcision, is a custom. Though it`s painful like cicumcision, people follow that tradition. If dowry giver and taker - either Hindu or Muslim - had no problem why shud we have?

Respectufully Submitted,

bH,

JOKER hehehe LOL:-)))))

Disrespectfully Submitted.

Indians need not gloat over the semingly apparent misconception that they have ,
through their incessant needling, provoked Behram into sensless repetition of the reported evils of the Indian society. Yes, he sounds extreme.. But the evils he has mentioned are for real. Is dowry not a very real problem in predominantly Hindu India. This pernicious practice is also practised in parts of Pakistan and should be condemned by all.

And VRV, read your last post once again. It don`t read so hot now, do it ???

Re: # 436

Cool. Thats really cooooooool!

The rabies aflicted pagal koota bH seems to be a pet of brother Okhla. Shud we blame the dog or its owner or the rabies?????

Anyway,

bH......JOKER & Circus DOG hehehe LOL :-)))))))

Re: # 435

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.They cannot match you on logic/rational debate..

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Let me get this straight. You are using the sick dude and words like ``Logic`` and ``Rational debate`` in the same sentence....

Thank you. Seriously. Here I was almost thinking that we had come across a rare phenomenon -- a sane reasonable ``Pakistani``. Oh well, you turned out to be just another dumb Paki after all.....