The Great Wrong

#45 by hasanmahmood

The reason why you guys are no longer poor is because of one and only one thing - KARACHI. Remember your buddy Nawaz Sharif and his brother. Ask them how much money they took from Karachi and put in Lahore. If you dont believe this then go back and look at Karachi and Lahore 10-15 years ago. Lahore was nothing but horse craps and red buildings and uneven roads. Karachi was the industrial hub. It opened its arms to everyone inclusing Punjabis who went there and did nothing but plunder its wealth. Then they took it back to their ``so-called`` home Lahore.

Mr. hasanmahmood, your conjectures are all over the place and in fact so ridiculous that it`s not even funny. Lahore took money from Karachi? You must be joking. How did Lahore do that? Oh I see .. you say Punjabis went to Karachi and plundered its wealth and took it back to Lahore and spent it there. But wait a minute, aren`t there all ethnicities in Karachi who work and send money home? Anything wrong with that? Are the Pathan rickshaw drivers plundering Karachi? Or was there a Ghouri style invasion by Lahoris? I`m quite perplexed ...

Where you`re right is indeed 10-15 years ago Lahore was nothing like it is now, but it was because of a single reason ... i.e. effective governance and effecient planning/allocation of revenues on infrastructure. Karachi/Sind can do the same but they haven`t been able to because of the fundamental difference between the political make-up of the two provinces. That difference is that in Punjab, the federally appointed Governor and the elected Chief Minister are never at daggers drawn because of common interests of Punjabis, while nothing happens in Sind because of the Urban Sindh/Rural Sindh divide with Governor/CM in opposite camps who keep trying to sabotage the other ... as is happening right now.

That is the real problem with Karachi. Punjabis never took anything more than their due share from the federal pool, rather, sacrificed some of their share for other provinces.

For instance, the spanking new Lahore airport is entirely self-financed by Punjab through foreign loans guaranteed by the Provincial Government, not even a sovereign guarantee by the federation of Pakistan. Do you see the light now?

But you have all the freedom to be a jealous kukkar:-)

#47 by adamkhan

If shodas had horns, then you zeemax would be a bara-singha.

Haha ... thanks. How about a reindeer? That would also be in season!

But really, I didn`t support Ally`s putting down Peshawar, nor her saying that Punjabis/Pathans despise each other. It is simply false. Punjabis/Pathans are infact the closest amongst all the ehtnicities in Pakistan. She is reacting to the author`s (and your) attacks on Punjabis i.e. ``Punjabi Khaa Gaya`` which is equally false, so I support Ally to that extent.

Now that you have correctly identified me as a wonderful four-legged creature, may I suggest you prove me wrong re the two industrial estates in my #44?

Re: # 31 by faisaluno on November 23, 2006 12:09pm PT

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taikonaut:
1. after the soviet union fell, reports came out from kgb archives showing that pretty much all pakistani leftist leaders were on the take.

2. this commie-mullah alliance also combined agains the shah of iran. mullahs however showed their true face after the revolution by purging iran of leftist including kicking out bani sadr -

3. .i am in favour of govt retaining strong contacts with the mullahs because mullahs are not beyghairath like the lefties who will betray the country for a couple of bottles of sharab.

....

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#1 - Amen brother. Lefties from NWFP, Punjab, Sindh, Balchistan were all on the take from KGB.

#2. Lefties in NWFP are jumping with joy that Mullah terror will now be on lefties side. Poor leftie blokes don`t realize that they will be the first to be slaughtered by Mullahs (off course in Halal way). Iran`s example is a good one.

#3. I beg to disagree. Mullahs can no longer be ``retained`` by Pakistani government. These Mullahs are now more faithful to the Arab money.

#46 well said! i am surprised at ally saying such a dumb thing.

HP: don`t you think you are confusing ethnic rights with provincial ones, except for the Punjab, the remaining 3 provinces are not homogenus.

The revenue argument is silly ..no federal system on earth distributes resources on the basis of revenue generation. Although in the same breath no country has a revenue system distribution based on population either..as a rule the federal system gives encouragement to poorer units.

#46 by adamkhan
``Provincial autonomy is the right of every province in this federation,``

That is so true! with provincial autonomy, the talk of dividing Punjab would be completely unnecessary. The real issue is to find ways to stop the army from its resources grabbing mania.
If we divide Punjab on the basis of ethnicity, what is going to stop us from dividing Sindh(sindhi-Mohajir), NWFP(Pushtoon-Hazara), Balochistan(Pashtoon-Baloch)?

Division is not needed, what is need is provincial autonomy and a division of resources based on an agreed upon formula.

It’s not fair to gang up on Punjabis. Ideally the country should follow the Yugoslav model and be split along ethnic lines, with a little part of Karachi reserved for Mohajirs. Everyone can live happily in their own little republic, elect their own Khalifas, and use their own language in schools and conducting state business.

Shoda-Max

Besides mentioning the article that made you a peer, you also mentioned this in your first interact

Author, Your central premise is questionable that the idea of division of Punjab meets with hostility and opposition. Where did you get this notion?

and here you are in interact number 44, ``embellishing`` the ``sentiments`` of someone who insulted the city that educated you, and made you what you are today (not a good job, but still....)

If shodas had horns, then you zeemax would be a bara-singha.

ally

You are stupid, here is why

especially if it was done to appease the Pathans (whom Punjabi ppl despise as much as you guys despise us - Pathans are the butt of all of our jokes)

You are mistaken if you think that you speak for all Punjabis, I have many Punjabi friends, They dont ``despise`` me because they are not racists, they are good people. I know of my racist pathans who hate all non pathans, they are lowlife bigots and you are no different.

Jokes are jokes, they are nothing more than that. But to hate a people just because of their ethnicity is simply low.

Provincial autonomy is the right of every province in this federation, you are either ignorant of the facts or consumed by hate. In either case you need help.

Regards.

ally or whatever your punjabi name is - you are talking nonsense and seems to be taking pride in not knowing anything. Whether pathans are being made fun of by you is not important. The reason why you guys are no longer poor is because of one and only one thing - KARACHI. Remember your buddy Nawaz Sharif and his brother. Ask them how much money they took from Karachi and put in Lahore. If you dont believe this then go back and look at Karachi and Lahore 10-15 years ago. Lahore was nothing but horse craps and red buildings and uneven roads. Karachi was the industrial hub. It opened its arms to everyone inclusing Punjabis who went there and did nothing but plunder its wealth. Then they took it back to their ``so-called`` home (Lahore. It would have been OK had it stop there. But no the Sharif`s did not want to stop there. They were voted in by Punjab so they had to destroy other cities to make Punjab the best (balay balay). The problem is that it is not just the Sharif khandan. It will be anyone who will be voted in by the Punjabis. That is why it is in the best interest of our country to divide Punjab. That way no province can dictate to the leader what he should or should not be able to do. And also by the way, we make more fun of Punjabis than Pathans. Pathans are actually hard working people. Punjabis are like vultures. Start thinking about Pakistan rather than your (own) people - you idiot. Because before you are a Punjabi you are a Muslim and than a Pakistani. This ``I am a Punjabi`` thinking is something you only got from your parents and it was strengthened by you uncles and aunts and grandparents. Come out of this shell and be a little more concerned about your country and not your province.

#42 by ally

... if you guys are poor or messed up thats your fault not ours...

Ally, just to embellish your sentiments with facts, when the first industrial zone was established in NWFP in Charsadda in early 70s, there was just one local family which established an industrial enterprise. All the others were Punjabi entrepreneurs. Even now, you may ask the author and his charsaddeywal buddies how many Pathans made use of the Gadoon Amazai estate despite the tremendous incentives offered there in the beginning? It is full of entrepreneurial Punjabis.

In fact, you`ll find a lot of Sialkotis in Lundi Kotal and Darra Adam Khel in the arms industry. So these guys have a huge chip on their shoulders.

I think it is a terrible idea. The provinces that feel that Punjab dominates un- proportionally should not ask for it’s breaking up, but should ask for severance from the Union, by way of some sort of non-violent Jihad, etc.. Go and make your own little countries. As it is, Baluchistan, with less than 5% of Paki population sits on roughly 70% of natural resource reserves and about half of land mass. Is that fair?

I dont understand one thing, why is this seen as an insult by some Punjabis? I mean it would still be Pakistan wont it? No body is talking about cutting off a chunk and creating another Bangladesh. So whats the big deal?

The big deal is that you guys blame the Punjabi people for all your failures, when that is not true. Most Punjabi ppl would probably be fine with the split if its in our benefit, but would totally oppose it if it were seen to be done for appeasing the other provinces especially if it was done to appease the Pathans (whom Punjabi ppl despise as much as you guys despise us - Pathans are the butt of all of our jokes)

What Punjabi ppl are getting fed up with is the fact that the rest of Pakistan seems to blame us for their cr*p which we`re not going to take anymore and will oppose and at every given opportunity, if you guys are poor or messed up thats your fault not ours, and we will remind you of that fact every time you try to blame us!

faisaluno:

Bhutto was no less than a dictator his actions shouldnt be touted as the will of the people.

This is the thing, when Nawaz Sharif raised the slogan ``jaag punjabi jaag`` no one had a problem with it. Infact he was voted into power as the prime minister of Pakistan, why? Why is it that he was not bundled up with the rest of the ``traitors``?

The defeat of the KGB was not the win of Pakistan or the Pakistanis, it was the payback for Vietnam. And we are still suffering the consequences of that venture.

You spoke of voting patterns, why is Siraj ul Haq (MMA) raising the issue of the division of Punjab? Is he also a nationalist? Wasnt his kind at the fore of the fight against ethnicities?

Faisal,

(the biggest transfer to the central government occurs from sind due to karachi. so if revenue is distributed on the basis of where its generated, then karachi and sind would be the biggest beneficiaries and baluchistan and sarhad the biggest losers.)

The same thing has often been said about Mumbai in India. But this argument can be misleading. The main contributors to the taxes (mainly from corporates):

Excise duty: levied on production in factories which can be located anywhere in the country and goods meant for consumption anywhere in the country. But payment maybe made from the head office, which would often be located in the commercial capital.
Customs duty: levied on imported goods, collected from port city, but meant to be consumed anywhere in the country.
Income Tax: again based on profits of the company as a whole, collected from the HO but the profit may be generated by producing units located anywhere and based on rveneue streams earned by serving consumers anywhere.

In short if Karachi were to seceed from Pak, it may not earn as much by tax revenue as it does now.

Regards

adam khan:

if nationalities were suppressed, why does mqm rule the roost in urban sind? also fyi, nationalities did not have too much of a good time in 70`s when bhutto launched the biggest army operation in baluchistan yet. in addition bhutto kicked out the anp led govt in nwfp after which anp declared that it would fight for indepenedence.

bottom line is that awam has rejected ``nationalities`` which is clearly indicated by voting patterns. sure nationalities have pockets of support but that is to be expected because even within pak at the time of independence there was a significant opposition to pakistan. after independence, these people have drapped themselves in the nationality chadder. their actions get magnified because commies in the english press see them as the force that will counter mullahs.

also as the kgb documents indicate, nationalities were cooperating with a soviet union at a time when the country was indirectly at war with them. in my book, people who take money from a hostile power are committing treason and therefore deserving of firing squad. no ifs or buts.