Islamic Education, Madrassah Reform, Rationality and Dawkins
Asif Naqshbandi November 29, 2006
#98 Posted by nasah on December 3, 2006 8:50:56 pm
Parents forcing their children to acept their religion is a form of child abuse.(DAWKINS)
AGREED 100%. Kids should not be allowed to handle guns, cars, spouses, and RELIGION before the age of 16.
AGREED 100%. Kids should not be allowed to handle guns, cars, spouses, and RELIGION before the age of 16.
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#97 Posted by ZahraJ on December 3, 2006 7:27:06 pm
Another interesting read -
http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2OTUmZmdiZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTcwMDkxNTgmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk5
Picture this: Middle East Coexistence House
Monday, October 23, 2006
By THOMAS E. FRANKLIN
PHOTOGRAPHER AND WRITER
Danielle Josephs, center, of Teaneck initiated a living/learning dorm at Rutgers ` Douglass College that includes 11 students.
THOMAS E. FRANKLIN / THE RECORD
arrowDanielle Josephs, center, of Teaneck initiated a living/learning dorm at Rutgers` Douglass College that includes 11 students.
For those who say that Muslims and Jews can`t get along, there`s a group of Rutgers students who say not only can they get along, they can live under the same roof.
That roof is Jameson Hall, a women`s residence at Douglass College where 11 students with varying backgrounds and religions have voluntarily chosen to take part in the groundbreaking Middle East Coexistence House.
Within the group, there are five Jews, three Muslims, one Hindu, one Christian and one agnostic in the new ``living-learning`` community. Launched in September as part of the Global Village -- a residential environment designed to promote intercultural appreciation and global awareness -- the experiment has caught the watchful eye of many, including the college television channel mtvU, whose cameramen documented the students` first day.
``The goal is to have each woman serve as an ambassador in her own community, spreading the values of mutual understanding, mutual respect and coexistence,`` says Danielle Josephs, a senior from Teaneck. ``Real change always starts with a seed. One person can make a difference, and if we have 11 ambassadors who can then go out into their communities and debunk stereotypes and educate people, we can play a role in facilitating that change.``
This unique house of understanding was actually born out of hate. The idea came to Josephs when as a freshman in 2003 she unwittingly came upon a pro-Palestinian rally on campus, where painted signs and epithets spewed out such venom as ``Death to Jews`` and ``Zionism is Racism.``
``Something needed to be done,`` she says. ``We needed to broach this difficult subject rationally and constructively, and create a platform for some kind of productive dialogue on this issue.``
Time passed, but an idea grew. ``A kind of light bulb went off,`` Josephs says. ``I said I needed to establish a house in which Jewish and Muslim women can live, learn and prosper together.`` So she recruited women with contrasting backgrounds and beliefs, but with a similar commitment to bridging the cultural gap.
The roommates are mixed, living mostly in pairs in a dormitory setting. They have adorned the halls with posters and photographs of key figures of all faiths, with the belief that education breeds tolerance. Josephs says they casually get together each evening in the dorm, studying or talking politics. Everything is open for discussion, especially religion.
``The most awesome thing about this house is we can disagree,`` says Nadia Sheikh. ``And if we don`t happen to agree, it`s OK.``
``People are just people,`` adds Hilary Nicoll. ``There is a difference between fundamentalism and everyday people.``
On a recent weeknight, a few of the women gathered to watch a documentary Josephs had on her PowerBook. As they sat on a bunk in the dark, leaning on one another to get a better look, the scene was more reminiscent of a pajama party than of people who`ve hated each other for centuries.
Josephs, who is Jewish and wore a T-shirt with the Star of David, was flanked by the scarf-clad Leila Halwani, a Lebanese-American Muslim from Clifton, and Sara Elnakib, an Egyptian-born Muslim from Paterson. The scene was an example of what the Middle East Coexistence House is all about, and perhaps a sign of what the Middle East could be.
``We`ve been living together almost two months,`` says Josephs. ``It`s been a fascinating experience so far. I`m looking forward to the rest of the year. After this experience, I think we can make a real change.``
http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2OTUmZmdiZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTcwMDkxNTgmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk5
Picture this: Middle East Coexistence House
Monday, October 23, 2006
By THOMAS E. FRANKLIN
PHOTOGRAPHER AND WRITER
Danielle Josephs, center, of Teaneck initiated a living/learning dorm at Rutgers ` Douglass College that includes 11 students.
THOMAS E. FRANKLIN / THE RECORD
arrowDanielle Josephs, center, of Teaneck initiated a living/learning dorm at Rutgers` Douglass College that includes 11 students.
For those who say that Muslims and Jews can`t get along, there`s a group of Rutgers students who say not only can they get along, they can live under the same roof.
That roof is Jameson Hall, a women`s residence at Douglass College where 11 students with varying backgrounds and religions have voluntarily chosen to take part in the groundbreaking Middle East Coexistence House.
Within the group, there are five Jews, three Muslims, one Hindu, one Christian and one agnostic in the new ``living-learning`` community. Launched in September as part of the Global Village -- a residential environment designed to promote intercultural appreciation and global awareness -- the experiment has caught the watchful eye of many, including the college television channel mtvU, whose cameramen documented the students` first day.
``The goal is to have each woman serve as an ambassador in her own community, spreading the values of mutual understanding, mutual respect and coexistence,`` says Danielle Josephs, a senior from Teaneck. ``Real change always starts with a seed. One person can make a difference, and if we have 11 ambassadors who can then go out into their communities and debunk stereotypes and educate people, we can play a role in facilitating that change.``
This unique house of understanding was actually born out of hate. The idea came to Josephs when as a freshman in 2003 she unwittingly came upon a pro-Palestinian rally on campus, where painted signs and epithets spewed out such venom as ``Death to Jews`` and ``Zionism is Racism.``
``Something needed to be done,`` she says. ``We needed to broach this difficult subject rationally and constructively, and create a platform for some kind of productive dialogue on this issue.``
Time passed, but an idea grew. ``A kind of light bulb went off,`` Josephs says. ``I said I needed to establish a house in which Jewish and Muslim women can live, learn and prosper together.`` So she recruited women with contrasting backgrounds and beliefs, but with a similar commitment to bridging the cultural gap.
The roommates are mixed, living mostly in pairs in a dormitory setting. They have adorned the halls with posters and photographs of key figures of all faiths, with the belief that education breeds tolerance. Josephs says they casually get together each evening in the dorm, studying or talking politics. Everything is open for discussion, especially religion.
``The most awesome thing about this house is we can disagree,`` says Nadia Sheikh. ``And if we don`t happen to agree, it`s OK.``
``People are just people,`` adds Hilary Nicoll. ``There is a difference between fundamentalism and everyday people.``
On a recent weeknight, a few of the women gathered to watch a documentary Josephs had on her PowerBook. As they sat on a bunk in the dark, leaning on one another to get a better look, the scene was more reminiscent of a pajama party than of people who`ve hated each other for centuries.
Josephs, who is Jewish and wore a T-shirt with the Star of David, was flanked by the scarf-clad Leila Halwani, a Lebanese-American Muslim from Clifton, and Sara Elnakib, an Egyptian-born Muslim from Paterson. The scene was an example of what the Middle East Coexistence House is all about, and perhaps a sign of what the Middle East could be.
``We`ve been living together almost two months,`` says Josephs. ``It`s been a fascinating experience so far. I`m looking forward to the rest of the year. After this experience, I think we can make a real change.``
#96 Posted by ZahraJ on December 3, 2006 3:41:29 pm
Asif - Thanks for another perspective. I will come back on that. In the meanwhile, please do read the following article. That`s Time`s cover story from 11/27.
The Passion of the Pope
With his blunt talk on Islam, Benedict XVI is altering the debate between the Muslim world and the West. On the eve of his visit to Turkey, TIME looks at the roots of the Pope`s views--and how they may define his place in history
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,1561120,00.html
Interesting paras......
``That approach includes Islam. In Ratzinger`s 1996 interview book Salt of the Earth (with Peter Seewald), he noted that ``we must recognize that Islam is not a uniform thing. No one can speak for [it] as a whole. There is a noble Islam, embodied, for example, by the King of Morocco, and there is also the extremist, terrorist Islam, which, again, one must not identify with Islam as a whole, which would do it an injustice.`` This sophisticated understanding, however, did not keep Ratzinger from slapping down a bishop who wanted to invite peaceable Muslims to a papal ceremony in Fatima, Portugal, or, in 2004, from objecting to Turkish E.U. entry on grounds that it has always been ``in permanent contrast to Europe,`` a contrast his other writings made clear had much to do with religion.
Islam played a particular role--as both a threat and a model--in the drama that probably lies closest to Benedict`s heart: the secularization of Christian Europe. In the same 1996 book, he wrote that ``the Islamic soul reawakened`` in reaction to the erosion of the West`s moral stature during the 1960s. Ratzinger paraphrased that soul`s new song: ``We know who we are; our religion is holding its ground; you don`t have one any longer. We have a moral message that has existed without interruption since the prophets, and we will tell the world how to live it, where the Christians certainly can`t.``
After Sept. 11, Ratzinger`s attitude toward Islam seems to have hardened. According to Gibson, the Cardinals in the conclave that elected Ratzinger made it clear that they expected a tougher dialogue with the other faith. After the London subway bombings in July 2005, the new Pope responded to the question of whether Islam was a ``religion of peace``--as George W. Bush, among others, has always stressed-- by saying, ``Certainly there are also elements that can favor peace.`` When he met with moderate German Muslims in the city of Cologne that August, Benedict delivered a fairly blunt warning that ``those who instigate and plan these attacks evidently wish to poison our relations.`` In Rome, he removed Archbishop Michael Fitzgerald, a relatively dovish Islam expert, as head of the Vatican`s office on interreligious dialogue and replaced an ongoing study of Christian violence during the Crusades with one on Islamic violence today. And he has stepped up the Vatican`s insistence on reciprocity--demanding the same rights for Christians in Muslim-majority countries that Muslims enjoy in the West.``
The Passion of the Pope
With his blunt talk on Islam, Benedict XVI is altering the debate between the Muslim world and the West. On the eve of his visit to Turkey, TIME looks at the roots of the Pope`s views--and how they may define his place in history
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,1561120,00.html
Interesting paras......
``That approach includes Islam. In Ratzinger`s 1996 interview book Salt of the Earth (with Peter Seewald), he noted that ``we must recognize that Islam is not a uniform thing. No one can speak for [it] as a whole. There is a noble Islam, embodied, for example, by the King of Morocco, and there is also the extremist, terrorist Islam, which, again, one must not identify with Islam as a whole, which would do it an injustice.`` This sophisticated understanding, however, did not keep Ratzinger from slapping down a bishop who wanted to invite peaceable Muslims to a papal ceremony in Fatima, Portugal, or, in 2004, from objecting to Turkish E.U. entry on grounds that it has always been ``in permanent contrast to Europe,`` a contrast his other writings made clear had much to do with religion.
Islam played a particular role--as both a threat and a model--in the drama that probably lies closest to Benedict`s heart: the secularization of Christian Europe. In the same 1996 book, he wrote that ``the Islamic soul reawakened`` in reaction to the erosion of the West`s moral stature during the 1960s. Ratzinger paraphrased that soul`s new song: ``We know who we are; our religion is holding its ground; you don`t have one any longer. We have a moral message that has existed without interruption since the prophets, and we will tell the world how to live it, where the Christians certainly can`t.``
After Sept. 11, Ratzinger`s attitude toward Islam seems to have hardened. According to Gibson, the Cardinals in the conclave that elected Ratzinger made it clear that they expected a tougher dialogue with the other faith. After the London subway bombings in July 2005, the new Pope responded to the question of whether Islam was a ``religion of peace``--as George W. Bush, among others, has always stressed-- by saying, ``Certainly there are also elements that can favor peace.`` When he met with moderate German Muslims in the city of Cologne that August, Benedict delivered a fairly blunt warning that ``those who instigate and plan these attacks evidently wish to poison our relations.`` In Rome, he removed Archbishop Michael Fitzgerald, a relatively dovish Islam expert, as head of the Vatican`s office on interreligious dialogue and replaced an ongoing study of Christian violence during the Crusades with one on Islamic violence today. And he has stepped up the Vatican`s insistence on reciprocity--demanding the same rights for Christians in Muslim-majority countries that Muslims enjoy in the West.``
#95 Posted by Naqshbandi on December 3, 2006 7:55:58 am
WAS Zahra. Thanks for the links.
I agree that Muslims have themselves to blame for their own problems by and large.
Thanks for the links. The Pontiff`s remarks were disingenious. Shaykh Hamza Yusuf has given an
excellent rebuttal to him too here:
I agree that Muslims have themselves to blame for their own problems by and large.
Thanks for the links. The Pontiff`s remarks were disingenious. Shaykh Hamza Yusuf has given an
excellent rebuttal to him too here:
#94 Posted by jay1 on December 3, 2006 12:54:12 am
Hi,
#68..
No HINDUS dont have gods that say ``convert the heathen`` and ``do this or else!!``.
Yes the tribals in each state have their ``own gods`` that are like local village zamindars, lusty, jealous and in general fully anthropomorphic ``like humans``.
Its a pity the middle eastern religions carry the stamp of the savageness of their areas of origin! All blood and gore.
Between them how many people have they killed? Either crusading or rampaging thru peacefull societies.
The atrocities of Torquemada (spanish inquisition) , Cortez & others in south america, The arabs in Africa are just too terrible to recount here.
In comparison, howmany thousands or millions did hindus or buddhists kill?
Meanwhile the christians have reformed to such an extent, it was christian america that saved muslim ass in cosovo!
While the high & mighty in the arab world were either dozing off in oblivion, or partying over the successes of the janjavids in (black) darfour.
Jayen
#68..
No HINDUS dont have gods that say ``convert the heathen`` and ``do this or else!!``.
Yes the tribals in each state have their ``own gods`` that are like local village zamindars, lusty, jealous and in general fully anthropomorphic ``like humans``.
Its a pity the middle eastern religions carry the stamp of the savageness of their areas of origin! All blood and gore.
Between them how many people have they killed? Either crusading or rampaging thru peacefull societies.
The atrocities of Torquemada (spanish inquisition) , Cortez & others in south america, The arabs in Africa are just too terrible to recount here.
In comparison, howmany thousands or millions did hindus or buddhists kill?
Meanwhile the christians have reformed to such an extent, it was christian america that saved muslim ass in cosovo!
While the high & mighty in the arab world were either dozing off in oblivion, or partying over the successes of the janjavids in (black) darfour.
Jayen
#93 Posted by ZahraJ on December 2, 2006 10:56:41 pm
Asif -
Hi. AA. After a long time, I have read something by you. An interesting narrative! Some of your questions are quite appropriate, but I do not get a sense from this article that Muslims are meant to live in a world where everyone (non-Muslims) can co-exist. It should not be us vs. them - west vs. the rest of the Muslim world. I do not think it was intentional; but something was missing somewhere.
I totally agree with your stance on living through this world with flying colors vs. eternally preparing for the world after death. If that was the only purpose of human existence then we did not need human civilization and could have lived with apes and their ilks in some caves in and around Himalayas. Living in this world means dealing with human beings, learning to live with other sects and religions and people from different colors and creed.
Last but not least, the US does not have to step on any Muslim soil to create any havoc. The Muslims all over the world are enough to kill and bury their own people alive. Why are we so hesitant to accept it?
I have been following Benedict XVI`s remarks on reason and rationality. There was a beautiful article I had read a few weeks ago. Now, I cannot find it. The following links include some interesting perspectives and equally interesting rebuttal.
What the Pope Gets Right ...
By decrying the use of violence in the name of God, Benedict is challenging Muslims to confront hard truths
By RICHARD JOHN NEUHAUS
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,1561148,00.html
And Where He`s Still in the Dark
Benedict`s definition of what it means to be European ignores the positive contributions of Islam
By TARIQ RAMADAN
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1561146,00.html
Enjoy.
Z
Hi. AA. After a long time, I have read something by you. An interesting narrative! Some of your questions are quite appropriate, but I do not get a sense from this article that Muslims are meant to live in a world where everyone (non-Muslims) can co-exist. It should not be us vs. them - west vs. the rest of the Muslim world. I do not think it was intentional; but something was missing somewhere.
I totally agree with your stance on living through this world with flying colors vs. eternally preparing for the world after death. If that was the only purpose of human existence then we did not need human civilization and could have lived with apes and their ilks in some caves in and around Himalayas. Living in this world means dealing with human beings, learning to live with other sects and religions and people from different colors and creed.
Last but not least, the US does not have to step on any Muslim soil to create any havoc. The Muslims all over the world are enough to kill and bury their own people alive. Why are we so hesitant to accept it?
I have been following Benedict XVI`s remarks on reason and rationality. There was a beautiful article I had read a few weeks ago. Now, I cannot find it. The following links include some interesting perspectives and equally interesting rebuttal.
What the Pope Gets Right ...
By decrying the use of violence in the name of God, Benedict is challenging Muslims to confront hard truths
By RICHARD JOHN NEUHAUS
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,1561148,00.html
And Where He`s Still in the Dark
Benedict`s definition of what it means to be European ignores the positive contributions of Islam
By TARIQ RAMADAN
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1561146,00.html
Enjoy.
Z
#92 Posted by bjkumar on December 2, 2006 9:40:37 pm
#91
Ama yaar,
How about translating this piece for those of us who are unable to read scribble-scribble?!!
You Pakistanis are such lazy bums!
#91 Posted by Urstruly on December 2, 2006 9:38:10 pm
THE THRIVING SUFISM IN PAKISTAN
(note the article at the bottom)
#90 Posted by krishna_abcd on December 2, 2006 2:26:48 pm
#88 by Naqshbandi
[Ah. You reveal your hatred of islam once more and your ignorance. please read What is Sufism? by Dr. Martin Lings to find the truth.
If a blind man cannot see the sun, it doesn`t mean the sun doesn`t exist.
Especially galling for Hindus of India is that Sufis like Khawaja Moinuddin Chishti (originally from Sanjar in Iran) converted lakhs of hindus to ISLAM. ]
Yes. I see now. You`re right. I have no argument. I have been blinded by my hatred. Sufism IS Islam. Sorry about the confusion. Goodbye.
[Ah. You reveal your hatred of islam once more and your ignorance. please read What is Sufism? by Dr. Martin Lings to find the truth.
If a blind man cannot see the sun, it doesn`t mean the sun doesn`t exist.
Especially galling for Hindus of India is that Sufis like Khawaja Moinuddin Chishti (originally from Sanjar in Iran) converted lakhs of hindus to ISLAM. ]
Yes. I see now. You`re right. I have no argument. I have been blinded by my hatred. Sufism IS Islam. Sorry about the confusion. Goodbye.
#89 Posted by saminasha2 on December 2, 2006 1:26:37 pm
Shirin Ebadi in the memoir Iran Awakening writes that the concept of ijtihad is central to the reinterpretation of Sharia policies in Iran. She interprets the dynamic potentials of ijtihad as one open to the Shias and closed to the Sunnis because the Sunnis dont necessarily practice it.
Any comments?
Any comments?
#88 Posted by Naqshbandi on December 2, 2006 12:16:40 pm
Re: # 87
Ah. You reveal your hatred of islam once more and your ignorance. please read What is Sufism? by Dr. Martin Lings to find the truth.
If a blind man cannot see the sun, it doesn`t mean the sun doesn`t exist.
Especially galling for Hindus of India is that Sufis like Khawaja Moinuddin Chishti (originally from Sanjar in Iran) converted lakhs of hindus to ISLAM.
Ah. You reveal your hatred of islam once more and your ignorance. please read What is Sufism? by Dr. Martin Lings to find the truth.
If a blind man cannot see the sun, it doesn`t mean the sun doesn`t exist.
Especially galling for Hindus of India is that Sufis like Khawaja Moinuddin Chishti (originally from Sanjar in Iran) converted lakhs of hindus to ISLAM.
#87 Posted by krishna_abcd on December 2, 2006 10:55:40 am
#63 by Naqshbandi
[Bhai, Sufism Is Islam--indeed, it is really the heart of Islam itself. Take out the heart and the body dies--remove Sufism (i.e. spirituality) from Islam and Islam will `die`. ]
It is good that you acknowledge this - that without Sufism, Islam is nothing.
Because Sufism has NOTHING to do with Koranic Islam, therefore Islam IS nothing.
But don`t feel bad - you`re still a human being - like everybody else.
[Bhai, Sufism Is Islam--indeed, it is really the heart of Islam itself. Take out the heart and the body dies--remove Sufism (i.e. spirituality) from Islam and Islam will `die`. ]
It is good that you acknowledge this - that without Sufism, Islam is nothing.
Because Sufism has NOTHING to do with Koranic Islam, therefore Islam IS nothing.
But don`t feel bad - you`re still a human being - like everybody else.
#86 Posted by bjkumar on December 2, 2006 10:21:26 am
#85 (add-on)
And never debate anybody on the points they raise - just call them biased and run away - with your tail between legs!
#85 Posted by bjkumar on December 2, 2006 10:17:57 am
#84
That`s right yaar!
Never get a third party to appraise ya!
Make sure the ``appraisers`` are all INSIDERS!
#84 Posted by Naqshbandi on December 2, 2006 9:47:56 am
Those who want to find out, from academic sources, and not terribly mistaken internet articles about the relationship between Islam and tassawuf (sufism) should do two things:
1. Ask or read the works of sufis themselves
2. Read Martin Lings` classic work What Is Sufism?
That so called `expose` of Sufism is nothing more than regurtitation of long debunked and abandoned orientalist ideas from the 19th century.
just to show, one example, of how woefully ignorant that article there are many hadith collections in sunni islam not just bukhari and muslim and certainly not one by ibn bubayba!!
1. Ask or read the works of sufis themselves
2. Read Martin Lings` classic work What Is Sufism?
That so called `expose` of Sufism is nothing more than regurtitation of long debunked and abandoned orientalist ideas from the 19th century.
just to show, one example, of how woefully ignorant that article there are many hadith collections in sunni islam not just bukhari and muslim and certainly not one by ibn bubayba!!
#83 Posted by KaalChakra on December 2, 2006 9:24:17 am
Asif Bhai
Islam is not clueless without Sufism. Islam promotes a very specific worldview, an approach to life and to all human things, that is quite independent of Sufism - whatever, for a moment let`s say, the latter may be. (Urstruly #66 gives pretty much the right idea, although one may differ on some points).
Islam does not change because of Sufism. It will not die without sufism.
Islam fulfills very real needs of particular kinds of people. Put another way, very particualar needs of all those who insist on calling themselves Muslims. So long as human beings possess those attributes, Islam will survive, even thrive.
Human beings will not change. So Islam will not go away or die. To try to give it the veneer of some sufism is silliness, if not outright deception and fraud (which, very often, Historically, Sufism has been), IMHO.
Islam is not clueless without Sufism. Islam promotes a very specific worldview, an approach to life and to all human things, that is quite independent of Sufism - whatever, for a moment let`s say, the latter may be. (Urstruly #66 gives pretty much the right idea, although one may differ on some points).
Islam does not change because of Sufism. It will not die without sufism.
Islam fulfills very real needs of particular kinds of people. Put another way, very particualar needs of all those who insist on calling themselves Muslims. So long as human beings possess those attributes, Islam will survive, even thrive.
Human beings will not change. So Islam will not go away or die. To try to give it the veneer of some sufism is silliness, if not outright deception and fraud (which, very often, Historically, Sufism has been), IMHO.
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