Islamic Education, Madrassah Reform, Rationality and Dawkins

In addition to #45, let me also remind you that when you hold the existence of Allah dependent upon a human being, i.e. the prophet, you are outside the realm of Islam, that is why your faith is doubly worthless, you are a plain simple idolator like the rat god worshippers here.

Re: # 46

you obviously have comprehension problems: i did NOT say, naudhubillah, that Allah`s existence is dependent on the Prophet, rather I said that I believe in Allah because I trust absolutely in the word of the Prophet alayhisalatuwasalam.

As for your rational proofs of His existence

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they have ALL been refuted by Muslims and non-Muslims centuries ago. So, what does that leave you?

This is the disease at the core of Wahabism: denigrate the Messenger`s status at every opportunity.

Re: # 46

> you are a plain simple idolator like the rat god worshippers here ....
I would gladly choose a rat over a pimp who has to dish out 72 whores for his *noble* purpose ;D

Naqshbandi writes <<< `Tell the accursed one (i.e. Satan), that I believe in God without proof!`` At this Satan vanished. >>>>

Nice meaningless, worthless tale. Tell me how is belief in Allah without proof any more valid than believing that a rat god created the world? And before you begin telling me how, might I remind you that you are using reason and logic, because there is no other way humans can communicate meaningfully, to prove that ``reason and logic`` are worthless. Your ``faith`` is worthless because it is based on , ``I believe in x because y said so``. Might I suggest that with such worthless reasoning abilities you keep your recommendations to yourself because we have enough of such bs going around the Muslim world already.

Arjun writes <<< the conditions on earth are perfect to sustain life as we know it..if the conditions were different, the life would be different... >>>

That wasn`t me speaking but a world renowned physicist and when he talks about ``balance`` he is talking about the constants necessary for the universe to evolve in the way it did in order to permit life. By the way, you talk about ``different life`` with no empirical evidence that such ``different life`` is even possible. You give a brand new meaning to the term ``macaca mentality``. Keep it up.

Please, spare Pakistan. Enough of Islam, Islam, Islam saga. Pakistan doesn`t need any Islamic education. All this country needs to be freed from clutches of dirty and mad Islamic mullahs with NO Islamic teachings in school at all.

If, you repeat this Islamic mantra, it should be at your homes Not in public. Pakistan should be a secular country just like India.

Re: # 42
[...Pakistan should be a secular country just like India....]

uh-hh... this is not gonna to go down well with YLH... the freak is going to freak out...

Where is YLH anyway?...

``It is better to be irrational and happy than rational and unhappy`` -- A C Clarke :-)

I also disagree with those Muslims like Zakir Naik who try to `find` scientific facts in the Koran!

First of all the aim of this article was not really to prove whether or not one can know the existence of God using methods of rationality--and interesting though such a discussion is for intellectual purposes, it is not really the reason why I wrote this article. It was ways to make Islamic education more relevant to the modern age so as to help the problems of the Muslim world. It was aimed at the middle ground between complete rejection of religion for all practical purposes (or watering it down so much that it amounts to the same thing) as has happened in Europe and parts of the US, which has led to social problems, to the other extreme of Wahabism or the Christian fundos where religion controls every aspect of life--even to the point of being ridiculous. I`m saying, don`t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Masadi: you are ignorant of Imam Ghazali if you believe he Christianised Islam. He struck a balance between the complete rationalisation of the Mutazilites and the extreme literalism of the Zahirites and he reconciled for ever orthodoxy with sufism. And he showed the logical errors in his opponents arguments using their own philosophical methods. A part of this he came to the conclusion that one cannot prove beyond any doubt, God`s existence or non-existence via purely rational arguments. He then had a nervous breakdown as a result and left his professorial post to become a wandering dervish, finally finding the certainty he saught in the sufi path.
after this ten year period of wandering he then returned to teaching, writing his masterpiece Ihya Ulum al Din as a result.

As for the question of whether I believe ulama should play a role in politics then it is no. In that sense I am for secularisation of Islamic countries. The aim of the ulama should be the moral and spiritual guidance of people.

I think the Muslim countries need to invest heavily in scientific education en masse but this article is about the madrassahs.

Personally, I believe in Allah simply because the Beloved Prophet told me He exists. It`s that simple. One of the reasons I read Dawkins book was to test my Faith! If the words of an atheist scientist could shake it, it wouldn`t be much of a faith! I`ll tell a little story to illustrate.

When the great scholar, philosopher, scientist and sufi Fakhr al Din al-Razi was dying, Satan came to him and asked him why he believed in God. Razi gave Satan a logical argument for God`s existence. Satan refuted his argument. Razi gave 100 such arguments and Satan refuted them all. Then Razi heard the voice of his spiritual guide who said to him, `Tell the accursed one (i.e. Satan), that I believe in God without proof!`` At this Satan vanished.

***
My aim is to seek a balm for the ills of the Muslims in this world. So my metaphysical beliefs etc. are immaterial.

i have a low-faluting question. how much do madrasa teachers get paid? do they have any pension? a regular pereson with a BA-B.Ed etc who is qualified to teach ``normal`` courses arpires for a regular salary (no, halwa is not a proper substitute) and hopefully a pension, and perhaps might not want to teach in a madrasa. is there a social double-standard aka hypocrisy perhaps at play? meethinks if ``normal`` schools were available, masses would flock to them and madrassas will become sunday schools...no complicated Ijtehad etc is needed. once a populance (esp the women who will coach the next gen) is educated in some worldly languages, and tools of math and science, they are FREE to figure things out without any elite defining it out for them. i mean the proudest affluent members of islam would not hesitate to go to St. Patrick or Bacon House (if such a school existed).

Dear Asifbhai,
I was Sud Divisional Officer/Asst. Collector of Balapur Sub-division in Akola Dt. in Maharashtra state (India) in the mid 60s (last century!) and there was a ``Haji Naqshabandi``, a very eminent person, resident then at Balapur. A near namesake of yours!

I liked your article and your pleas. May I raise a few points?
1) Why have you relied so much on philosophies and scholarship and interpretations? Let past texts be past historical texts. Why not relegate them to history and take only the basic morals? Why re-interpret every word or sentence from Holy Quran or Hadith? Western civilization has left the western philosophers as irrelevant in its inexorable scientific and cultural march. Even in India, the Hindus do not worry about the word of the vedas, Puranas, Shastras etc and left them to the priesthood and conduct their life in a somewhat secular way, without however ignoring the concept of God.

2) Why have you not advocated the separation of religion from the State? Enlightened and progressive Malaysia has done this. Why should Islamic theocracy run the State or have a stranglehold on a country?

3) Why should you imagine that we should be materialistic? You seem to think that western materialism is the way for all of us (the underdogs). Don`t you see that the rich western societies have a high proportion of criminals! A man would think of selling his wife to Robert Redford for a million dollars for a night - surely you have seen that film! I mean that richness and materialism is not really our objective per se. Our objective should be knowledge in all its gamuts, learning, morals and virtues. Goods and happiness will follow. If people have jobs, are industrious and work harmoniously, richness would follow.

-V.S.Gopalakrishnan

Re: # 34

please see my reply to 38. As for Malaysia, I think it is a good model for other
Muslim nations to follow. I do not support complete materialisation, rather it is a balance I seek.

I`m sure this Haji was a much better person than I.

Krishna: You say, ``...Under the proper electromagnetic radiation, and viewed at the proper angle, the Koran could give up the ``revealed`` verses on the ``Theory of Everything``, and that`s just to begin with. It`s all in there. You just have to look hard enough. Skin your cat (interpret) any way you want it....``

This method is too high a technology method and expensive. I suggest a low technology method . Take the Book and squeeze it and lo, behold you can get anything out of it!

I once squeezed and twisted Sear`s Catalog- pretty hard, believe me, I can extract any thing I want out of that! A fool proof method!

BTW: what is ***.abcd stands for?

Kamath

[Traditional Islamic learning needs to be enhanced by the addition of modern subjects such as post-Renaissance philosophy, hard sciences, modern mathematical logic and history and IT....]


Enhancing is okay, as long as the faithful use the latest scientific techniques to tease out more and more divine meanings out of ``revealed`` chapters like ``The Cow``. Masadi could prove to be a valuable resource. Under the proper electromagnetic radiation, and viewed at the proper angle, the Koran could give up the ``revealed`` verses on the ``Theory of Everything``, and that`s just to begin with.

It`s all in there. You just have to look hard enough. Skin your cat (interpret) any way you want it. It`s called ``free will``. And don`t blame Al-lah if your interpretation is wrong. Okay?

Naqshbandi sahib,

(Sorry about my past references to you as “wolf Naqshi.” No physical resemblance with that creature was implied.)

The aims of what you are trying to bring about – a more liberal outlook on the part of the Muslims, may be laudable. But your reasoning appears highly specious.

You wish to put the blame on the five hundred years of the absence of “ijtehad”! What happened – did people suspend their common sense and good judgment, too?! And five hundred years is a rather long period, don’t you think, for people to stay with – if it is something that makes them uncomfortable – don’t you think?!

With the reasoning you put up here, you will have a tough time convincing ANYBODY! It is because you are conceding nothing. You still implicitly assume – that being a Muslim amounts to having a special monopoly on truth.

It does not!

And nowhere in your write-up you seem to be willing to concede that non-Muslims are as much the children of God as Muslims! Why is this obvious fact so difficult to say aloud for Muslim “religious scholars”?

And you fail to even touch upon the simplest question that comes to mind…

WHO WILL BELL THE CAT?!!

Are you going to start a movement so all those fatwas against the Rushdies and against the various other intellectuals around the world who have been declared apostate will be lifted?

You will do none of those things – perhaps because you fear what will happen to you if you do any of those things – or perhaps because inside, the core of your thinking has stayed exactly the same!

So one may be forgiven for thinking that this “changed” thinking on your part is just a maneuver – to get your clams out of the fire where they seem to have landed due to the unwise action of some of your fellow co-religionists and absolute apathy on the part of most of the rest!

And no matter what you say….

It is all Book, Book, and Book with you – no sense of common sense and human love!

To bring you down to earth, let me throw some Dev-Anand on you:

“Falsifa pyaar ka tum kya jaano?!
Falsifa pyaar ka tum kya jaano?!
Falsifa pyaar ka tum kya jaano?!
Tum-ne kabhie pyar na kiya
Tum ne yeh karar na kiya!”

In my humble opinion, the problem is – you have read too many books, sir!

And the problem is – you have read too few Books, sir!

You are so sure in your own mind sir, that like the Jinnah – you miss the obvious!