The IIT experience

Ref swarrier #30

[Jang , stop your needling. IIT`s were not designed to produce economists, or peaceniks or photogenic men with bushy hair and moustaches.]

Several years ago, I saw an advertisement for Sri Ravi Shankar Ji`s meeting in California. The ad mentioned he graduated from IIT.

I am not sure this is the ``Art of Living`` Ravi Shankar. But then Ravi Shankar seems to be favorite pseudonym among sadhus, musicians, etc.

So yes, IITs do produce men with an aura of bushy hair surrounding their face.

Re: # 34

Then maybe the next big step is for the IIT`s to move from technology to flower power. -) Would that Ravi Shankar had started `Technology of Living``, but it doesn`t have quite the same pizzazz to it, does it?

Bongdongs,

Thanks for the correction.

Jang,

There`s a clear diff between science and technology. Technology is supposed to solve technical problems whereas science is supposed to deal with thoughts and realities though inextricably linked with experimentation i.e. proper scientific process....

Technologists therefore cant produce a theorist for eg say theoretical physicist i.e by analogy a thinker of Einstein variety.

whatever, but saima shas point is has IIT produced a thinker like say gandhi or prof. huntington or einstein or even amartya sen? the answer would be a no IMO. now narayan murthy is a doer..not thinker.

Re: # 28
Jang , stop your needling. IIT`s were not designed to produce economists, or peaceniks or photogenic men with bushy hair and moustaches. They were supposed to turn out engineers.
That they have produced people who do a lot of other things is their fault. -)

How many Einsteins did the Swiss Federal Polytechnic produce? They made him a good patent officer.

That way that Satya Sai Baba bloke is also a thinker. Dunno what he`s thinking of though. Maybe IIT should produce one of those types.

#26

Sandeep (not Sanjay) Pandey of ASHA.

I bit too political to be altruistic (he gave up his magsasay award money because it was ``tinged`` with US money)

but one must respect a lot of what he has done.

Warrier,

Altruistic reasons! Ditto Sanjay Pandey, an IITian, US-returned and a Magsaysay awardee.

#24
Have a friend who was at IIT Bombay who actually after his BTech worked at Baba Amte`s ashram for quite a while setting up their administration etc. Bit off the beaten track that.

Warrier,

I know of Karmaker of Bell labs and read abt his invetions. Read abt Netravali and George as well.

I also read of one IIT-B guy - a Kerala Catholic who got 800/800 in GRE but didnt go to the USA for masters. These IITians are performers but as u siad, IITs produced thinkers as well.

VRV
There are people like Karmarkar, Netravali, George Varghese etc and quite a few more. I`m only looking at engineers. You might say they are there inspite of or because of the sytem.

how about praful bidwai?

Re: # 21

Jang, is it? I dont know.

I met Mr. Gupta as a roommate at a Paris Youth Hostel. Though he came as India`s rep for a seminar in Paris (which makes him eligible to stay at a 5* hotel) he stayed in the Hostel as his daughter also came from another EU country to see him. I really didnt know then that my roommate was Arvind Gupta.

We spoke abt space science and abt my deep interest in astronomy till late midnight. I also told him abt Jayant Narlikar`s articles that inspired me as a kid. We spoke abt Indian science till late midnight. Next morning I saw his bag and baggage to be a collection of garbage from Indian streets. (Though I kept that opinion to myself). I must visit him at IUCAA at Pune, one of the several centres in Indian where study of astronomy is being conducted.

Later when I came back to London I found his name as a person touring Pakistan popularising Science education. Then I googled and I found a lot abt him. Inspite his age he`s the glint of a childish curiosity in simpler things, which he uses as tools to popularise science. He too studied in an IIT but didnt join the rat race for better jobs but stuck in writing books for children in vernaculars for popularising science. Great Soul.

``Five point someone`` succeeds because it`s funny. You can identify with teh lead characters, ``mediocre`` though they be.

This is just a sophomoric essay with no humour, no nostalgia, no sentiment at all. You may well have been writing an essay on ``The Cow`` (The cow has four legs. It eats grass. People everywhere except Hindus eat it, etc.)

BTW, the RECs (not RCEs) are now called NITs (National Insst of Technology)

Nabebendu`s article reads like a power point presentation. -)

Re; Saima Shah , I don`t think the IIT`s were built to solve all the problems of the century. They were built to create a bunch of people who would help industrialise India.

Plus I don`t think the IIT regimen is against thinkers. Pressure cooker situations are there in many good schools in the West too. However to some extent they do not have the same time pressures as most schools in Asia.

You cannot join any professional college in India for a graduate degree beyond a certain age (I think it used to be 21). You also have to clear your courses in a specific degree of time.

I think the biggest problem is the price our society puts on failure. To succeed as a creative thinker one must not be afraid to fail. All that is effectively drummed out of us at a very early age, the penalty for failure is too high.

And that starts very early in life, long before the IIT`s.

Unlike other places there is no social net to catch you if you fail. Your time runs out by the time you are in your early 20s.

The IIT`s are much better than many other colleges. There are a few creative thinkers that they have produced in the 50 net years of their existence.

Re: # 17

Yes, I agree with you--it is true, my judgement is very harsh. But, the lens I am using is the current crisis of the industrial era. There are bigger things afoot then the industrialization of a country. I believe that there is a global crisis of knowledge. And one of the reasons is schools that completely annex the old economy out of the curriculum as though it is a useless waste of time. I am afraid that the values that industrialization teaches (yes, there are values) are environmentally and socially unsustainable. My opinion is that these schools produce the greatest do-ers, who don`t know what they are doing and why. Now, that is fine if one views people as capital and input. It isn`t fine, if we view people as the beneficiaries of an economic system.

Regards

Saima

Re: # 32

Saima
I don`t entirely disagree. But the same blame could be laid on any educational institution in the world today or in the past. People have never completely thought out the consequences of their actions while doing scientific research because the urge and the joy to solve a problem is more important than the related consequences.

Again any business or technical school is only interested in turning out graduates that will be able to improve the it`s brand name. This is as true in the West as in India or elsewhere.

In today`s world where specialisation is important the amount of time spent in learning a vast body of work that already exists in a chosen field effectively reduces the time one requires for reflection, if one has to think from a humanitarian perspective.

People still do but after they are able to have some time or money at their disposal. The Bill Gates Foundation would not have happened if Microsoft had not become the behemoth it is today. Sort of Yin and Yang. -)

Cheers

Re: # 17

>>>>There are a few creative thinkers that they have produced in the 50 net years of their existence. <<<<

I can name Arvind Gupta who is known for popularising science in India in an unconvetional way. Btw, he too toured Pakistan this year.

Three Blind Mice

The piece of chalk caught Rashid on his left shoulder. He immediately turned his head back and faced the front. Dr. Mohanty was glaring, “Would you like to share with the rest of us what’s so funny?!”

Rashid hesitated a bit then finally said: “No, I won’t!”

Dr. Mohanty considered. He felt a low-level surge of anger inside him – he could expel this errant student who was polite but blunt – why couldn’t this guy simply make an excuse or say “sorry”, even a fake “sorry”, so that they could resume with a degree of propriety. There was a bit of impudence that one could associate with this kid.

Yet, a part of him empathized with such troublemakers. This place was a pressure-cooker – it must absolutely be so! After all, just look at the coursework – five full courses every semester plus an afternoon workshop or equivalent lab work every day! Not to mention all those cultural activities – whole night sessions preparing for music concerts, events like the “Spring Festival”, the debate competitions – the you-name-it’s! It was a fine thing that they had to take a few non-technical courses, too – like his. Unfortunately, they seldom took such courses with the seriousness that was due.

Dr. Mohanty gulped. He decided to ignore the infraction.

Rashid felt relieved momentarily. It had been only a routine double-entendre which, in the normal scheme of things, would not have been considered even funny – however, its juxtaposition to some of the individuals now present in the classroom – especially the current lecturer – somehow made it an original and hilariously funny. He had no more power to stifle that giggle than Dr. Mohanty had the ability to make that mole on the tip of his nose vanish.

The mole which was at the epicenter of his current troubles!

For, imaginative as he was, sexual connotations with reference to that anatomical aberration were simply beyond Rashid’s strait-laced imagination – or had been until now! Rashid would never be able to see a mole in the same light ever again!

Dr. Mohanty went back to reading lines of the poem:

“…What immortal hand or eye
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?”

“What did I tell you – it is all about symmetry!” the voice from behind was clear to Rashid but nobody else could make them out. Rashid felt unstoppable laughter building up inside him again. He was afraid that he might burst.

Oblivious to the tempest brewing inside that cup of Rashid’s tummy, Dr. Mohanty continued:

“…And what shoulder and what art
Could twist the sinews of thy heart?”

“Fart” came the whisper from behind. An involuntary “phhhttt..” sound escaped Rashid. Dr. Mohanty cast a questioning eye on him.

“Excuse me!” said Rashid – pretending a guilty plea to an offense which had never really occurred there. Dr. Mohanty resumed.

“…What the hammer? What the chain?
In what furnace was thy brain?”

A snoring sound came from the student on his left side. Rashid glanced sideways – just as expected, they were all asleep. All except him and the guy behind!

“…Did He smile His work to see?
Did He who made the lamb make thee?”

“If I were a lamb – I too would pee!” came the whisper again. Rashid forcibly bit his tongue to make himself quiet. His face turned red from the effort.

Dr. Mohanty felt there was something going on but could not quite figure it out or do much about it. Rashid, of course had no clue what would come next – and even whether he will be able to last the whole class. And the guy behind had no clue what the next joke would be – he only knew that there was sure to be one – it just came out of nowhere! Every one of the three principals was guided strictly by his instinctive feel for the present.

A minute later, when Dr. Mohanty had his head down again, Rashid turned his head back a bit and whispered, “Beej, I’ll get you for this!”

Some threats are easier made than actually carried out.

Ref jang #13

[so there were three graduates, one from (harimaus) anna engg college....]

Harimau most certainly did NOT attend Anna University (not engg college, its name has been upgraded though not its faculty nor its facilities). Anna University is reserved for those named Masanamuthu, Sangilikkaruppan, Sudalaikkannu, Tamil Mani, Love King (its Tamil equivalent being Anbarasan), etc.

so there were three graduates, one from (harimaus) anna engg college, one from MIT and one from IIT. they were asked the same question..how do you reverse an AC motor. harimaus school chap says, you have to reverse the widings on one phase. the MIT grad says you will need to invert the state-space matrix. the IIT (under)graduate who is too busy reading bihari pondies (porn) says ``ama yar just look at the motor the other way and close the door behind you``.

Re: # 13

Jang,

That`s hilarious. LOL.

#11 by bjkumar on November 25, 2006 4:57am PT

{#4
[The food at RK Hall (the graduate student dormitory) was better than at the undergrad cafeterias.]

Ama yaar, that`s not a grad student dorm, unless they made it so later!}

Oops, RP Hall! My bad!

{What will they do next?!! Start putting in the women there too?!!!}

Women? I believe the general term of reference is ``she-male``.

#4
[The food at RK Hall (the graduate student dormitory) was better than at the undergrad cafeterias.]

Ama yaar, that`s not a grad student dorm, unless they made it so later!

Darn, darn, darn!

What will they do next?!! Start putting in the women there too?!!!

Darn, darn, darn!

Oh ... just saw #1 by SaimaShah. That`s what I mean and she pretty much sums it up. I guess this is why even in the IT field, the creative software designers are all from Eastern Europe, particularly Romania. It must be their educational system which places creativity over competition as priority.

And yes Saima, IBA does NOT produce thinkers. Our current PM is an IBA graduate... so we all know that.

But you`re one too ... isn`t it? Guess they didn`t work hard enough on you ... couldn`t sterilize your `thinking` germ.

Re: # 10

Yes, Zeemax. Your question is harder to answer. To answer why IBA couldn`t make me into an Investment banker is: 1. My mother and my father who are very liberal 2. Ready access to Literature 3. Ghalib. Ghalib is a category on his own, apart from other poets. But IBA`s early grounding has supported me through my career and made subsequent academic forays fairly easy. I wish though that they had provided more lifeskills, philosophical grounding and attempted to at least discuss the moral questions and the big quandries facing industrialization. (Yet, business/tech schools seem to be quite afraid of discussing and introducing Ethics and philosophy). And while doing so, I wish they had been just a bit nicer to young people. It isn`t that I believe young people should not face hardship or reality. It is because I believe that when people lose trust in themselves that a crime to humanity is committed. Young people have very tender egos, over criticism damages their spirit and faith in themselves, always making it harder for them to do the right thing or think independently.

Interesting that the facilities at IITs are of such pathetic standard. I had thought these IITs would be something like LUMS which is more on the lines of MIT as far as facilities are concerned. But it is indeed commendable in the characteristics these produce in their graduates which appear more geared towards a competetive vocational environment than nurturing creative thought. But still ... quite an achievement.

PAKISTANI HUMOUR

---

This is a joke which appeared in a blog some years back

In a not-so-significant development, Mr. Pervert Mushrough, the Prime-Sinister of Pakistan, has announced that Pakistan is going to establish Institutes of International excellence in the lines of IITs (Indian Institute of Technology). Lamenting that India has forged far ahead with its core competence in IT (Information Technology), Mr. Mushrough stressed the need to develop Pakistan`s inherent strength in IT (International Terrorism) as well. To be known as PITs (Pakistan Institute of Terrorism), these centers will impart Training in bleeding-edge technologies to brain-washed aspirants. Stressing the need for strict quality control, he said a nation-wide entrance exam. called JEE (Jehadi Entrance Exam.) will be conducted throughout the year to identify school-dropouts for this unique program. Mr. Pervert was hopeful that these Institutes will meet the long-standing demands of domestic IT companies like LeT and JeM.

The two qualities that are instilled in students i.e Humbleness and Hardwork are all they need to be succesful.
But i dont understand why are they denied good food and decent environment. With such a successful alumni base, even if the government is not doing anything, the alumni should do. In my B School in Lahore, there s a strong tradition of alumni classes donating to build a class room or a lab with all amenities and maintaining it. Every class has made a fund of its own. So if you visit the school, u ll see planks outside various labs that this lab was built and eqipped by mba class of 99 etc etc.

#1 by SaimaShah on November 24, 2006 4:59pm PT

The pakis schools produce thinkers of the jihadi sort...

Try going through a list of startups founded by IIT grads...

Quote : ``The classrooms are filthy. There is no projector, no PC, no nothing, just the wooden benches and blackboards that were there over 30 years ago.

The labs have hardly more equipment today than existed at my time.

The engineering facilities are no where near what any International Technology Institute should consider as the bare minimum.``


Inspite of the .001 sucess rate of getting an IIT seat, IITs do not yet produce sufficient graduates who dedicate their lives to India. And it seems to need just about the money to start any engineering college. So why dont we have more IITs, or at least engineering colleges equal to them? Is it the lack of teaching ( since previous graduates have been spirited away abroad? )

The food at RK Hall (the graduate student dormitory) was better than at the undergrad cafeterias.

You made the mistake of doing your BTech at IIT-Kharagpur instead of your MTech or PhD.

Back in the 70s, IIT graduates went on to an MBA at IIM and became brand managers at Godrej selling soap.

But then they had sold their souls (and any chance of a normal adolescence) to get into an IIT so selling comes naturally to them.

My understanding was IIT Kharagpur was a notch below the other IITs - Kanpur, Madras, Bombay and Delhi. I was told that the non-teaching staff had a greater say on the campus than the professors.

Re: # 2
Babbu, i thought you would ignore reading the following response that i posted after your argument with tahmed on ``Indian Scholarships for Outstanding Pakistani Students``

Here it comes:

Re: # 140

Indian Scholarships for Outstanding Pakistani Students

I actually agree with both of u. Ballu and tahmed...First off: this longing friendship has to start in immaturity --turst my guys it takes LONG for someone to heartedly accept eachother even if one is at fault. Secondly, if not in immaturity than the mature minds (many times) take too long to learn. The leftover matures who are capable enough to bring about friendship will not make enough movement; thus, no major influence.

:) Hope this settles the argument.

PS. You guys fight like kids here. Let`s act mature hun. Pakistan/India are comparable only in very few terms > gota look at geographics too (Maturity needed to understand :D)

However, considering the current world-wide-muslim state, Pakistan is not doing too poorly as a developing country.

Overall, I certainly would appreciate some common sense being used.

RB

Yes, that`s the point of these pressure cooker schools. There is something like this in Pakistan, called `IBA`. The ideas were similar--put a lot of pressure, then some more. End result is a very tough cookie. These institutes don`t produce thinkers, they produce `do-ers`, which is fine, except if you think that we have a surfeit of `do-ers` who keep doing the same things, whereas we need some creative thinkers who can brainstorm us out of the issues of this century. If you get to this point, then all hell breaks lose. Seems like you are here...:).

What bothers me most is the values that places like this propound. While the Third World, bends over backwards to mimic the Corporate led success of the First World, the thinkers in the First World are on a different planet all together. Which means, we need thinkers as much as do-ers in India/Pakistan. Excellence in obtaining factual knowledge is great, but true genius lies in creative thought.

Rgds

Saima