Indian Filmmaker Plucks Musical Strings in Pakistan

Re: # 18

Hi Razia!
Thanks. Just email them to me at asifjuk@gmail.com

Thanks

Asif :-)

#11 by dost-mittar on December 3, 2006 11:27am PT

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And you are only partly right about the fate of classical music in India. Classical music in India, like anywhere else, is not for the masses. It was always less popular than other forms of music, such as film, folk music or bhajans.

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Funny how so many Biharis and UPites love to cast stones at Pakistan regardless of the thread or topic of discussion.

Classical music in Pakistan has survived nay thrived in Pakistan, thanks to the patronage by the secular elite mostly the Mega-Farmers.

On the other hand the same farmers treat Mullah with disdain. That is the reason Mullahs especially JI has seldom won a seat in the elite farming areas of Pakistan.

Many Biharis fail to understand that Pakistani elite supported classical music for the music itself and not as some religious duty. This fact in itself should be appreciated rather than derided.

Off course the poverty stricken areas of Bihar and UP can never even imagine how these Mega-farmers enjoy their lives.

So keep shoveling $hite. Keep on shoveling.

Re:DM#11

[..Also, while classical music was earlier associated with low castes/classes (so-called mirasis), it is now pursued by the children of elite. People in the upper crust would gladly send therir children to learn sitar or tabla......]

DM, classical music entered the mass market in India due to a couple of scholars - Vishnu Digambar Paluskar and Bhatkhande - both of whom made a major effort around early 1900s to move Classical Music away from the kothas/courts to the common folks. These two scholars compiled entire repository of Indian classical music compositions, prepared notations, published books and opened schools of music where ordinary people could go and learn music. The famous Gandharva Mahavidyalaya in Delhi and Bombay (it used to be in Lahore as well till 1947) is one such institution dedicated to the spread of classical music to the ordinary folks. The SPIC-MACAY movement in educational institutions like colleges and universities has also popularized classical music.

It was primarily a private and/or volunteer movement that has morphed classical music patronage in India. The critical change brought about was to take classical music away from the stranglehold of a few families belonging to certain gharanas and make it available for mass consumption in terms of learning and appreciation. The government contribution has been marginal. Of course, the government did not create any roadblocks unlike in Pakistan.

Among Indo/Pak muslims, classical music has always been limited to a set of musician families belonging to the gharanas. They teach only to their own e.g. the Salamat-Nazakat Ali family in Pakistan only teaches their own family members and relatives. If an outsider wants to learn, they have to go through hell like living a life of a servant in the home of the ustad, before he can learn anything. As a result, classical music knowledge has become hightly limited and no one knows enough to appreciate it. The families do this with the purpose of limiting competition but they inadvertently kill the market for their skills. The lack of state patronage also hurts, but primarily it is the fault of the musical families in Pakistan who refuse to make it a mass-movement.

Hey Naqshabandi,
i noticed you were interested in re-collecting some of M Hasan`s songs. I`ve got a cuple of MP3s if you are still interested. Lemme know how to get them to you :)

RB

Swarrier: I don`t think I have the expertise to tell you much by way of value added knowledge. I only came across the instrument when I visited Sanjan Nagar institute in Lahore.

Actually I came across their site:

http://www.sanjannagar.org/contact.htm

If I remember correctly, I met Sadia and Iram, both of whom are listed on the page. You can email them and ask. Yasser (Manto) knows them well and could be of additional help.

Re: # 2 by Zeena on December 1, 2006 9:07pm PT

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Pakistan is way backward in it`s music.

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Zeena Ji! Are there any basis for your fatwa?

So we don`t make as many bollywood style gaudy copies of Western musicians. That doesn`t qualify for these pompous rants.

Think a little before issuing fatwas in future. Otherwise we have to award you a title of Mullahni, and JI will give you free life time membership of their burq-posh groups.

bulleya:

You are off-topic. It is not my contention that Indians love Pakistani entertainment product and Pakistanis dont, so you are arguing against a case I did not make.

The topic is the fate of classical music in Pakistan where it had a very strong tradition and musicians. And no, I am not talking about one musician, that was the positive note in that now at least classical music has been reintroduced in official Pakistani media, albeit with possible censorship. I was talking about an official decision taken soon after Pakistan was created to ban a particular type of music from its radio because it smacked of another religion.

And it has nothing to do with Pakistani people. My reference was to the action taken by the Pakistani state institution. Of course, Pakistani people do not care about any reference to hindu gods and deities in hindi movies nor do they have any say in what goes into them since they do not contribute a penny to India while watching smuggled videos. As you said, they watch the product that they like. We are talking about institutions, not people.

intersting but unsubstantial note on the sate of classicl music in Pakistan.

Sadia it would be much better if you had provided more ifo on the movie set itself.

dost-mittar#: .......in the end it is economics......there are hindi movies that have flooded the pakistani markets, which not only refer to bhagwan, but have the hero, heroine acting as various religious figures, or performing religious ceremonies, etc........

.......its actually neither here nor there......economics and entertainment is what people look for.........barring a few tv dramas, i have rarely met anyone from india, who knew much more about pakistani music and entertainment.......on the other hand, pakistanis could go on and on about indian movies and music.........i can make a bet, i know ten times more about indian entertainment than you know about pakistani entertainment......why is that?.........

.......part of it is probably because pakistanis are significantly more receptive to things coming in from india, than vice-versa.........part of it is the quality of the the product........very little, if any of it, is bhagwan or rehman..........unless, of course, that is all one attempts to see in everything........

.......could one make an argument, then, that the reason indians have very little access to pakistan entertainment is because it does not mention bhagwan enough........or that the reason, very few hindi movies are made about indian muslims or have muslims as main characters, because it would require mentioning rehman..........

........or is it simply an industry catering to the economical realities of what makes money......in my opinion the later.........if i had 100 ruppees i would buy a cassette of junoon or of shaan (or jagjit or ghulam ali)..........but i doubt i would ever spend it on bare ghulam ali or hamid salamat ali...........since most people would do the same, bare ghulam ali and others will soon go out of business in pakistan.........they can sing all they want about rehman or bhagwan, it won`t make a difference, because that doesn`t have much to do with it...........however, if ashwariya rai is singing about bhagwan or rehman, she will do booming business in pakistan, as she does..........

.......simple economics..........(of course one can narrow in on the fact that 40 years ago, radio pakistan had a singer who changed one word in song........but that, in my opinion, pales in comparison to the crores and crores of ruppees of business, all other types of entertainment has, and is, doing........)

further to #11

When I said 4-5 classical concerts a year, I was only talking about Hindustani classical music; in addition, South Indian Cultural Association of Ottawa brings in another 4-5 carnatic musicians from India each year.

bulleya#11:

I fully agree with you that it is not right to bring religion into every discussion but in this particular case, it is quite valid. Being a bit older than you, I do remember the time when Pakistan radio banned classical music explicitly on the grounds of its Hindu origin, hence the validity of religion in this discussion.

As I said, the good news is that things are opening up in Pakistan. A few years ago when in Bangladesh, I watched a PTV program where they had a segment on classical music. However, the influence of Mullah police was still evident. A singer was singing a famous light classical piece, ``Sur se jisko pyaar naheen hai, vo moorakh insaan naheen hai``. In the song, there is a verse that ends with ``vo bhagwaan naheen hai``, whether by choice or censorship, the singer changed the words to ``vo rehmaan nahin hai``.

And you are only partly right about the fate of classical music in India. Classical music in India, like anywhere else, is not for the masses. It was always less popular than other forms of music, such as film, folk music or bhajans. But the other part of the story is that classical music has a much larger patronage in India now than ever before. It is now possible for classical musicians to earn their living without going into other professions. Also, while classical music was earlier associated with low castes/classes (so-called mirasis), it is now pursued by the children of elite. People in the upper crust would gladly send therir children to learn sitar or tabla. Even in a small city like Ottawa, we have at least 4-5 concerts every year by visitng classical musicians and there are two music schools of classical music in the city.

And it is even considered snobbish in India to take interest in classical music. Music concerts by well-known artists are always sold-out, even in a cultural ghetto like Toronto.

.....i don`t think the decline of classical music in pakistan has anything to do with it`s indian-ness..........or rejection of things indians, since 47...........quite the contrary.........there is oreders of magnitude more indian music in pakistan today, then there ever was historically..........also there is far far more indian entertainment, in general, in pakistan, than vice-versa........this is neither good nor bad.......just a fact.

...india is just getting introduced to junoon etc.......pakistan has been introduced to kishore, lata, amitabh etc for decades...........morever, the flood of indian movies (thus providing visuals of all things hindu) is far more, ``hindu`` than any, ``rejection`` of classical music..............why would someone be willing to watch all things hindu, including quite a few which are anti-pakistan and not purse it in audio.........

.........the decline of classical music - hindu or otherwise - is simple economics........it doesn`t sell..........hardly anyone buys classical cassettes or cds..........no one attends concerts in classical music in pakistan.......the latest ashwariy rai movie will sell thousands of time more videos than the latest classical cd from any classical gharana in pakistan........

........a good example is the most famous classical gharana of pakistan........the family of amanat ali........his brother (hamid?) and son (asad?) are two of the most accomplished classical singers in pakistan...........however, his younger son, who is also fully classically trained, has formed a pop band where he sings pop songs in a uniquely classical style........

.......needless to say the youngest son is making many time his elder brother and uncles.......and personally speaking, i find the younger son`s music far more entertaining than anything the rest of the family sings..........

..........i assume the same is true in india also.......sonu nigam and alka yagnak and hamesh rashmiya probably make even more money than the younger amanat brother.........and definitely more than any classical singer in india.........the former can sell out a ten thousand seat auditorium in toronto........while when the indian classical singers visit, then play in high school auditoriums.......

....... thus its kind of pointless to bring decline of something, just because it is, ``hindu`` into every discussion and mention it is a victory of islamists.............basically it is economics and technology.......the availability of videos.......the invention of vcr...........satellite dishes.....syntehsizers.........etc......pretty difficult for a classical musician to compete against that.........

Naqsh:

Yes, Mehdi Hassan does sing some of his ghazals in classical style, which is not the same thing as classical music; just as Naushad and many other film musicians composed their music based on classical raagas but very few of their songs, e.g., Bade Ghulam in Mughale Aazam and Amir Khan in Baiju Bawra would be considered as classical music.

You are right about Amir Khurau. Muslim contributions to Indian classical music is immense, this is why it was sad when the karta-dhartas of Pakistan decided that it was Hindu music.

The decline of classical music in Pakistan is a shame. dost-mittar, Mehdi Hassan sings many of his ghazals in classical ragas--indeed that is his trademark.

Qawwalis do have their origin in North Indian, Hindustani, classical music. It is alleged that Hazrat Amir Khusraw invented the sitar and also qawwali as a means of proselytisation.
He is also credited with inventing khyal by combining Indian and Persian musical modes.

The state of classical music in Pakistan should be considered as that country`s greatest achievement, if you are an islamist, or its greatest failure, if you are against islamists.

Like everything else in Pakistan, the trend started at the very beginning. Radio Lahore stopped playing Indian classical music as it was alleged to have its origins in the Hindu religion. This happened at a time when the great leader of Pakistan was telling Hindus that Pakistan was as much as their country as Muslims`. The result was that the great son of Punjab, Bade Ghulam Ali, was practically starving and decided to move to India.

It is a tragedy that ``classical`` in Pakistan has come to mean ghazals and qawwalis. [I love ghazals and qawwalis and have nothing against them as such, but they are not classical music, except when sung by someone like Begum Akhtar in light classical forms like thumri and dadra].

But let me end with a hopeful note. As I have said before, Musharraf is the first Pakistani leader, including Jinnah, who has actively promoted secular culture in Pakistan. In recent years, classical musicians from India have been welcomed in Pakistan and classical concerts have started to take place again.

This is for Stuka
Long ago you wrote about the Veena Sagar on one of your articles. Care to elucidate how it is different from a standard musical instrument? If you seperate the resonating chamber from the string board how do you transmit the sound?

How does it matter whose cultural property music is? It belongs to the people who love music and the people who create it. Others need not worry about it.