Bio-Science at the Crossroads

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,,1980978,00.html

Re: # 32 Naqshbandi

``Will we even be able to lengthen human life-spans? That is the holy grail of biological science research and I think the answer will be `yes`.``

The more important question is `to what extent` longevity is desirable, and at what political socio-economic cost? How will it impact the currently growing disparities between communities within communities and so forth.

Having said that, `longevity` by default means avoidance/postponement of death. The closest way of achieving that is to live in a bubble, cut off from the world of accidents that come unannounced. But that`s not a healthy way of living, if it can be considered living...or is it?

I hope the scientists can utilize their intelligence properly, although the trend suggests otherwise, and that`s already promising to be a waste of resources in every sense of the word.

Naqshbandi bhai, Allah ko mantay ho, to Allah ki baaton pe kaan bhi dharo zara. Zindagi aur maut sirf Us k ikhtiar mein hai. The best you can do is to improve the quality of life for as many as possible via cloning, longevity, or what have you; for a majority of human race today considers longevity a curse. Otherwise, your desires and efforts will be in vain.

:-)~~

nice article Gill sahib.

I think we are on the threshold of a biotechnology revolution: in the next 50 years we will be able to, for the first time, choose the characteristics of our offspring by manipulating their DNA via genetic engineering, cloning and nanotechnology.

As for cloning, I think that although we do need ethical committees to debate the specifics it is only a matter of time before someone produces the first human clone--unless it has already happened. If some governments ban it, scientists will just move to somewhere where it isn`t banned. also, after initial uproar, most people will just forget about it and by 2020 it will become just another technique for reproduction for infertile couples or individuals. Just like IVF.
I am deeply interested in this area of science and have considered retraining in it--perhaps in a few years.

The danger will lie in the disparity between the rich and the poor: the rich will have the means to clone themselves and also to produce `designer babies` which could create a class of `supermen` and superwomen with perfect supermodel looks (whatever is considered attractive at that time by society), enhanced intelligence, and disease-free.

of course, by the end of the century we will all be able to redesign our bodies and complament our natural intelligences by interfacing with computers and through the virtual realities which will become commonplace, replace old and aging body-parts and so on.

Will we even be able to lengthen human life-spans? That is the holy grail of biological science research and I think the answer will be `yes`.

Books to read which I recommend:

Visions by Machio Kuko (?)
Engines of Creation - Eric Drexler

Re: # 30 parthaab

``hmm...interesting indeed. Consider the possibility that the lack of faith is THE reason for a population without tensions?``

yeah, let`s....do you think USSR could have been a prime example of such a possibility?

Better yet, let`s FF to today...do you think USA, UK, China, or any other territorial population qualify or at least promise to be a tension free community?

You`re welcome to hazard a guess, but you`d produce a reasonable answer if you first studied/thought about the origins and need for `faith`.

:-)~~

#28, hmm...interesting indeed. Consider the possibility that the lack of faith is THE reason for a population without tensions?

Re: # 25 hamidm

hamid, I think you should update your resume with `digging up genitalia related news on the internet` as your forte.

LOL....

Things never looked down for the believers. Otherwise you`d not have as large a population of the believers as you do today. Time for you to think beyond alkhamru-walmeisiru

line pe aja chacha....lol

:-)~~

Re: # 17 parthaab

Another vicitm of sensationalist propaganda.

Of course you`re going to have 82% say faith causes tension in country where two thirds are not religious.

Sad indeed.

:-)~~

#25
Against their will? Talk about a restive region in body politics!

Re: # 25


Mian hamidm,

Masadi don`t need no help. He has been peddling ``leggy blondes`` on the Imran Khan board.

Regards.

things are looking up for the believers

maulana masadi,

......... now you can stop praying, your wishes have come true !

Kuwait court jails two women for raping man

KUWAIT CITY: A Kuwaiti court has sentenced two women to seven years in jail each for kidnapping a man and forcing him to have sex with them, a local daily reported on Sunday. The two women were convicted of raping the man by forcing him to have sex against his will, Al-Rai newspaper said, without providing their names or that of their victim. They were also found guilty of beating the man, who filed a medical report to the court. The daily said that a lower court had initially sentenced the two women to 15 years in jail each, but the appeals court on Saturday reduced the sentence to seven years. The two women denied the charges. afp

.......... sorry gill sahib, i just had to post this good news somewhere !

Re: # 11

Don`t you think there should be more variety when it comes to beautiful women?

Also, uncontrolled cloning would lead to a very boring world where everyone would agree with each other. That means no more chowk!

Thought provoking article Mr. Gill. I have always been interested in genetic science/engineering. It`s a fascinating area of research even though it is fraught with controversies.

I don`t think that by simply banning the research on human cloning we would be able to maintain the sanctity of human life for long. Sooner or later we would hear of some genetic scientist and his team of doctors who have been doing the forbidden research in some secret underground russian laboratory, and that would herald a new beginning in human cloning research. A new generation of rogue genetics experts would spawn across the world, and they would somehow manage to do their own research and try to create human beings. That`s just one of the many possible ill outcomes!

There is no limit to man`s knowledge, and he will learn what he wants to learn. By putting a ban on cloning has only increased his curiosity, and he would continually strive to learn more and more about it. If it weren`t for the moral constraints being placed by various religions, man would have had crossed all boundaries and created thousands of clones already. It seems that religion isn`t that bad afterall, and it does help when the small bugs in man`s enlightened nature make things get a bit out of hand.

Re: # 21

mullah masadi.

...... do you mind translating gabriel`s gibberish into a english ? .......... when it comes to the stock market i am a superstitious man and will take advice from any quarter - even if the source is as dubious as some bedouin deity named al-lah ...........

The Quran holds authority for Muslims, the post was addressed to those among them who are uncertain regarding the subject, and it was also addressed to the mockers who think that the Quran is incapable of handling such ``modern`` topics. A-holes like you though will never learn, it burns you that scientists in this case, in their ethics agree wholehartedly with the Quran.

Regarding the stock market, here is your quote from the Quran (5:90)

mullah masadi,

.... can you please consult the koran and tell me what the stock market is going to do next week ............. and while you are at it, why don`t you find out what date eid is going to fall on this year and also, if you don`t mind, the exact location of the g-spot .............

... thanks for your help ........

Regardless of the illiteracy of the bigots among the so-called freethinkers (no different to the Mullahs in my view), #18 is a prime example, the Qur`an differentiates between the human being and the embryo, describing what emerges at the end of the 8th week, i.e. after formation of bones and muscles as a ``different`` or a new creation (see 23:14). Therefore there is nothing wrong in ``manufacturing`` (the scientists are not creating anything just putting together components) embryos for research or in abortion before the 8th week, Islamically speaking, and my authority is the Quran`s words, even though the mullahs might disagree- what exists before the 8th week is not human.





I am perfectly capable of understanding simple language, so to the mullahs don`t try to argue simple statements to absurdity using all kinds of nonsense, I am in no mood for that kind of argumentation, and for bigots like hamid, shove dawkins where the light don`t shine.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 17

.... just started reading richard dawkins` ``the god delusion ``and came across this quote: When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion`` ..............

The world is nt all senseless! Some good news!!



http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,1978045,00.html

NTsyed sahib,

You are right. Even if God was to be left out of the picture, cloning would still leave behind a lot of scientific, legal and ethical issues. And for that reason it should be properly debated rather than brushed under the carpet saying that it is ant-God. Becuase ultimately at the end of the day, cloning is technically and economically a viable proposition it will happen irrespective of what God may have to say. God may not like nukes either but they are there.

Regards

PS: Merry X-mas, Happy New Year and Eid Mubarak in advance

Re: # 14 by majumdar

I stand corrected. I thought you were equating cloning to the mythological epics.

Unlike Test Tube babies, etc., Cloning does give birth to some very tricky questions though, and not necessarily pertinent to religion(s).

If I`m to have myself cloned, legally,

- will that being be considered my son or my brother?
- if he becomes my son, then what rights does he have on my parents, siblings, wife, and children, and vice versa?
- if he becomes my brother, who should be named as the father - me or my father?

...and so forth.

So, it`s not just the religious experts pulling their hairs out to address all the pertinent issues, I think secular legal experts, especially the ones dealing with human rights, will have a nightmare on their hands too.

I don`t think the policy wonks are keen on adding to their troubles at this point.

:-)~~

Kamath sahib,

(Soon contents of your post will be forgotten and some readers will throw this into hurling mud , religion and politics match at each other and insult each other with unpalatable names. Mualim Vs Non-Muslims, Zionism and so on!!! )

And if my two fave chowkies- YLH and HYD make their appearance you can add MAJ-MKG to the list.

NTsyed sahib,

(Please note the boldened word `mythology`; meaning the concept without ``scientific`` basis; pertaining to unseen and/or unknown. This is far away from ``cloning``. The process above needs scientific verification and validation)

I think you have misunderstood my point. I am not suggesting that the ancient Hanuds had perfected a way of cloning or that Hanud epics depict reality, it is just that at least one religious systems of the world (Hinduism) did not consider cloning as being an act of rebellion against God.

Regards

Re: # 9
Watch the Fun Mohammad Gill!

Wait for few days. Soon contents of your post will be forgotten and some readers will throw this into hurling mud , religion and politics match at each other and insult each other with unpalatable names. Mualim Vs Non-Muslims, Zionism and so on!!!

That is how the intellectual exchanges will take place in Chowk !!

Kamath

#6 ntsyed, majumdar can speak for himself - but i don`t think he`s claiming hindus invented cloning, rather it`s not an anathema to them.

Good Artikool Mister Mohammad Gills(as in Anglo lastname), since pure Momin like you cannot have a Sikh lastname.


Anyways, I think that cloning should be allowed for following reasons.

1) Rich people can clone themselves and keep them frozen and when we need spare parts then we can cut/paste as we like.

2) We need to clone good looking woman and save them in freezers and this way they will be immortalize.

thank you for not listening.......

Sad story of soul sarching for HOME like a bird for a nest .....

The Partition of India
``A moment comes, which comes but rarely in history, when we step out from the old to the new, when an age ends, and when the soul of a nation, long suppressed, finds utterance.`` -

Jawarhalal Nehru

I would like to add the following information to the article:

Louise Brown`s baby is due next month.

According to Senator John Dansforth (Faith and Politics, p. 91), “Numerous scientists at leading research institutions have expressed hope that stem cell research may be key to discovering cures to ALS (Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis also known as Lou Gehrig’s disease) and other terrible diseases, including Parkinson’s disease and juvenile diabetes. Stem cells are formed at the earliest stages of life, before they begin differentiating into identifiable body parts such as arms and legs. Because they are capable of becoming any part of the body, scientists think that the study of them may provide the answers to diseases that have largely eluded searches for cures, especially diseases of the nervous system.” Senator Dansforth’s elder brother was killed by Lou Gehrig’s disease.

Senator DAnsforth wrote in his book, ``I think of Don (his elder brother) every day. I would give anything to have him back.``

#5 Nasah sahib

You left ME out. :(

Dr. Gill,

Your article leaves one unclear on what is the ADVANTAGE of cloning. Shouldn`t we spend our resources on common-sense items like providing food for the hungry rather than creating clones?

Re: # 2 by zarrar2

[I do believe we need more freethinkers to capture and take custody (no joint custody) of good and spread the word.]

If it is indeed an `us-vs-them` thing, then why ``take custody`` of this commodity? Why not create / invent your own ``good``, so that none other than you can claim its custody?

[Science will prevail inevitably.]

The key operative in this assertion is ``inevitably``.

Considering the meaning of the word above, there would be a small chance, and that too only if the visible universe is to live forever.

Unfortunately, today`s scientists unanimously concur otherwise.

Re: #3 by majumdar

[In Hindu mythology we come across rishis - great and exalted humans but humans nonetheless-]

Please note the boldened word `mythology`; meaning the concept without ``scientific`` basis; pertaining to unseen and/or unknown.

[fashioning humans out of animals or sometimes just out of thoughts/sacrifical fire etc- for eg Draupadi, Drishtyadyumna etc.. Usually the humans so fashioned had exceptional characteristics]

This is far away from ``cloning``. The process above needs scientific verification and validation, just as the existance of God, to be justified as science-friendly or in sync with it. The closest words to describe this process are miracle or magic, which are again something scientifically unacceptable due to its inexplicability on tangible basis.

Nice try, though...

The two mustn`t be pitted against each other, lest both fail the humanity.

Life starts and ends with religion, because what happens before and after life is unknown and cannot be determined by science, at least not yet. Religion, on the other hand, fill in these blanks whether it matters to one or not. This is where atheism fails a free thinking mind.

The tangibles of the interim period is the knowledge, specifically for this period, and is called science. The unseen forces that influence the life in this period can only be explained via religion. Hence, science is only a subset of, or a means to reaffirm / reject, religion.

:-)~~

among the mile stones of cellular biology research -- cloning stands as an earth shaking discovery -- a little too ahead of its time for a 21st century`s unreformed medieval mindset....

the tragedy in the good USA is that such illiterate, uninformed science-deprived -- God-diseased -- WMD-loving -- unethical minds like those of George Bushes and Bill Clintons become the sole arbiters of what is `ethical` and what is unethical in biological sciences.

Natural Science must not be fettered by the fantasia of supernatural superstitious religious paganism.

Re: # 1

parthaab,

excellent post ........

Gill saheb,

A thoughtful article as ever. There may be an argument that human cloning may be anti-God but that would be only if we accept the Abrahamic model of God. In Hindu mythology we come across rishis - great and exalted humans but humans nonetheless- fashioning humans out of animals or sometimes just out of thoughts/sacrifical fire etc- for eg Draupadi, Drishtyadyumna etc.. Usually the humans so fashioned had exceptional characteristics. And there is no suggestion that such practises were frowned upon. So to make a blanket statement that cloning/artifical reproductive methods are anti-God may not be universally valid. Quite apart from the fact that some may argue that God does not exist or that God could be least bothered about such acts.

The ethical, scientific, environmental points about cloning, crossing species may be valid but being anti-God is something that can be safely ignored.

Regards

Prathaab

Hats of to you sir! well said. I do believe we need more freethinkers to capture and take custody (no joint custody) of ``good`` and spread the word. However, in our lifetimes, Gill Sahib would agree, the religious cults will be in majority. They will continue to alter history and knowledge untill science prevails. Science will prevail inevitably.

If religion were just a private club for loonies and the misguided and those being taken advantage of, carrying on its practices behind closed doors with its incense and its candles and its dressing up and its peculiar rituals and its collections, that would be okay, more or less.

But it isn`t just a private club. It has taken custody of ``good``. Religion claims the right to determine what is good, and what is bad/evil, and it appropriates unto itself the right to tell the rest of us what to think and how to think on various subjects, and what `being bad` is.

We are put in this club or that (Muslim, Christian, Protestant, Church of the Yellow Rabbit) before we can think for ourselves. There, often, we tend to stay, even once we can think for ourselves. The music may be rather nice. The social gatherings may be rather nice. What being religious (and therefore righteous?) says about us may be rather nice. Too nice to leave, whatever we believe.

If religion can`t say, hand on heart, ``this is definitely what a god thinks, he told us so``, then they should shut up and stop making it up.

The problem with debates on religion is that they turn into an ``us-versus-them`` affair with all secularists branded as unreconstructed atheists and enemies of the faith, and all believers as irrational and fanatical.

Will the world ever manage to get rid of religion? Probably not. We are stuck with it.
I am always shocked when those who consider themselves to be `intelligent` (I am thinking of Bush and Blair, among others) continue to believe that their lives are controlled by a man who lives in the sky.

If an alien landed from another planet and was told `I have never seen God, I just know he`s there, and he can see what everyone is doing at the same time, and I go into a building and sing songs to Him..` they would faint with incredulity.

Not to mention `when I am dead, I will carry on living, if I behave myself now`...

Unfortunately people who believe this sort of stuff have the ear and maybe heart (if not brain) of the world`s only remaining super-power. Christianity doesn`t have the monopoly on religious bigots. Religion and its obsession with genitalia may be mildly amusing at first glance....but sadly I don`t think it`s harmless and I don`t think it`s going away.