’Moderate’ vs ’Severe’ Muslims

True spirit of Islam is that of peace, tolerance and that of civic responsibility. and pigs fly and the Gooran sez we have the mountains to pegged the Earth.

Belive this my fellow non moozalim human beings and you`ll believe anything. BTW non moozalim human being is an oxymoron everyone who is non moozalim is automatically a human being as opposed to a moozallim who is a vermin and virus combined into one.

F***k u u liar. The gas chambers of the nazis are too god for the like of vermin like you.

No Regards
Sanatani

Asad Ali

You are right 100%. In fact the West spearheaded by the mad Bush and his New World Order are interested only in subjugating the entire world without any regard for their religion or its severity. Saddam, a moderate and liberal Muslim and the communist North Korea are both their enemies but Saudi Arabia, an archaic Muslim Extremist (Jaahiliyya) country and the secular India are their friends. But what they got by removing a liberal regime of Saddam? Only the extremism of the worst kind in Iraq.

Re: # 2
we ourselves have to find true islam before we expect the west to do so. In our own muslim lands, Islam has been highjacked by the uneducated mullahs. I wish we muslims could take our religion back and understand the real spirit of Islam which emphasizes social virtue and hardwork instead of being obsessed only with the rituals and old conventions. Weakness leads to exploitation and the west is obliging.

Re: # 3 drsyedasad

Actually, currently Islam is in the process of being hijacked by the likes of Musharraf, Shaukat Aziz, Ghamdi, Khalid Zaheer, Babar Chaudhry etc. from the clutches of 2-faced Qazis and Fazalus.

[...follow Islam in the ‘severe’ or pure form and have not incorporated the modern, Western or scientific concepts- hence they are potentially dangerous to the West.]

The West does not want the scientific concepts embedded in the Muslim scocities. The former just wants the latter to be dependant on her in this matter. On the other hand, it wants the Muslims to incorporate the Western morals yesterday.

Unfortunately, many a Muslims, particularly the ones with Western residence inside or outside the West, oblige the West hand and foot (in this respect) like the willing concubines.

Momin`s Islam will always remain dangerous to people who wish to commercialize everything the 5 human faculties deem tangible, especially if it`s sexual in nature.

:-)~~

Re: # 1 sanatani

I`m convinced that it was this vulgar ignorance that forced the Truks to conquer India and teach the native some manners. Unfortunately the Farangi undid the 1000 years of hard work in just 250 years.

Having said that, I think people with mentality demonstrated in #1 are begging to be forced into submission again...perhaps for eternity this time around. They`ve clearly demonstrated that can not be anything but slaves to whoever can smack them upside the head.

``The gas chambers of the nazis are too god for the like of vermin like you. ``

May be, but these seem perfect for sewer dwellers like you.

:-)~~

A question for you..

If you do not like the clutches of mullahs, and you donot like the western model and you donot like the forced liberalism of our society by the Musharraf group, then what is your vision for us to turn the corner? We clearly need to do some thing to turn the corner, right?

Re: # 6

Its a million dollar question indeed. But the Quranic Allah says, ``Jinko Allah gumrah kare unko koi hidaayat nahein de sakta`` (Those who are lead astray by God Himself cannot be guided to the right path). So is qoum ka `Allah Haafiz?`. Salfi mulla, jinhoon ne hamare Khuda ko bhi des nikala de dia he, Allah ke nam par hamein gumrah karne pih kamar basta hein.

It isn`t what real Islam is that bothers a non-muslim but what is perceived generally practiced Islam that scares him. Moderate and Hardcore Islam classification is made just for the sake of convenience. Why would anyone want to learn what real Islam is? Most will simply ignore it, if it doesn’t touch them like Budhism or any other exotic religions etc.

Greetings and salutations to all the Muslims. First of All People like ``Sanatani`` should be banned from the Chowk. I will have his account banned from the site and his ID revoked. Second, last thing we need is an apologetic attitude for our religion. We should care least about what Western world think of us. Did prophet of Allah (PBUH)cared when Kafirs of Mecca called him Mujnoon and Sorcerer? He is our shining example and we are the masters of our Destiny not these secular European who have thrown everything related to religion out of their lives. Understand this very well whether you are moderate, or severe, they will never ever consider you an equivalent and a progressive person of the greatest Abrahamic Faith. You know why? because they are afraid of Islam and out of fear they don’t want to know about true Islam and it is their fear that brings hatred for Islam. Case and point “Sanatani”. To understand it you have to read the entire history of Islam beginning with Crusades. All religions have had their extremists, Christian had their Crusaders and inquisitions too, Yet they conveniently brush aside the atrocities Crusaders have committed on the name of Jesus. Extremist groups like Talibans and Al-Qaeda were not formed over night they are a result of series of injustices that have been served to Muslims since the turn of the century after the break up of Ottoman Empire. These extremist groups are more of a symptom of what can happen to group of people when they are between the rock and the hard place where you fight and you fight with all you might and you use everything at your disposal. Hypocrisy of western world is they want to blame Islam of the symptoms it is displaying for the injustices that has been meted out to it rather than addressing the cause of those symptoms. So it is load of Crap that we should hang our heads and get down on your knees and grovel in front of these people who will hate you no matter what. Just be a good Muslim and take pride in the greatest gift of Islam that Allah has given you. Always be Just and ask am I doing what Allah and Prophet of Allah (PBUH) has commanded me to do. Rest is secondary.

Regards

Could you/anyone tell me what is the [b]true vision of Islam[/b]?
Why the confusion?

I think the problem is that out of 1.2 billion muslims, there are 1.2 billion visions.
Each and every one of it`s followers, follows or thinks of it differently.
Each and every person, will accuse the others of not following it correctly.
When I became of an age to start questioning, I was given answers which seemed absurd. Nearly everyone I asked, had not even read the Koran, or even understood it, or followed it.
Once I had spent enough time with muslims and non-muslims and then compared to see which ones were more `racist` or `greedy` or `corrupt` or `immoral` ... it would point to the muslims.

When I argued these points with them, the typical answer is:
``Yes, Allah will forgive us, for we are muslim. We are weak. We are human.``

What is the point of following any religion, if you don`t beleive in it 100%
and do even worse acts than the non-believers?

I have also spent a lot of time in Pakistan, and saw nothing different there as well. If anything, they were worse.

I genuinely believe that there are hardly ANY muslims in the world. All/most are non believers, but they do not speak out, because it would cause trouble for them. Maybe even get killed. So why rock the boat?

It only requires this taboo to be broken, then you watch the floodgates!

Re: # 10
Kamran, let me refer you to a book titled ``Reconstruction of religious thought in Islam`` by Allama Iqbal. I agree with Iqbal`s version of applying the ``principles`` of Islam in the current society.

I agree with what you said though. I will offer a reply to Nadeem as well. Muslim societies of today are not ideal. My understanding is that islamic social principles are actually very close to western principles. These are the same principles acting on which muslims dominated in early part of islam and now the west is dominating. This is nothing to get offended by. The difference is in theology and I think one should be able to accept difference of opinion there. I donot think it serves our purpose to highlight how different we are from the west. It takes us no where. Why not both be good human beings, learn fron each other instead of accusing each other of all the wrong doings that our forefathers may have done before we were even borne.

In my humble opinion, there is nothing wrong in learning from the successful western model, which in a sense is Islamic model.

This is my first comment on your site as I have just registered and I thank you all for the opportunity to contribute to the debate.

I am a westerner and an atheist so I have a very particular views of this issue of ``moderate`` versus`` extreme Islam.

My views are of two sorts. First my personal views and beliefs regarding religion generally and Islam in particlur and secondly my views as a member of a largely secular western society regarding the place of religious believers and how they, and non believers like myself should conduct ourselves in respect of each other.

Let me address the second of these issues first. What is ``moderate`` and ``extreme`` in the context of living in a western largely secular society? In my view the difference between moderate and extreme in this context starts with the willingness of the person or group to accept that others have different views and beliefs and that no one view or belief can dictate to others. However, this ``tolerance`` has to be in the context that in allowing each other to practice our views and beliefs we all accept that we do so in the context of the overall laws of the land which attempt to set some minimum set of acceptable behaviours.

Take the row over the Danish Cartoons ( or the Iranian Cartoons). We must be tolerant of both the wish of some to criticise ( by way of visual satirical cartoons) religious beliefs and the wish of others to safeguard their cherished beliefs ( not to have their religion made fun of or oouictires of their prophets published). Neither view can be allowed to completely submerge the other in a free western society. So there is a right to publish such material but there is also a right to protest against it. Protesting against it does not make someone an ``extreme`` muslim. I may not agree with muslims views on this but they have every right to express anger and concern. What they do not have the right to do, and what in my view is ``extreme``, is to call for the death of the cartoonists or publishers etc. In a civic society based on tolerance that is the difference between ``moderate`` and extreme``.

Now let me turn to the other way in which I would distinguish ``moderate`` and ``extreme``. This is from a more personal standpoint. Personally I have no time for religious belief and as far as I can see it has brought only misery and strife to this world, whatever ibelievers say about the ``true`` messages of their ``holy books``. All religions claim ``divine`` authority so on what basis am I to choose one from the other? From this perspective I personally believe that all religious devotees are extreme when they insist on the ``divine authority`` of their own belief and in particular when they try to dictate what I can and can`t do based on this. However being a moderate`` atheist I accept that I have no more right to insist that they desist in believeing than they have a right to insist that I believe.

In short ``moderates`` are those who live by their own beliefs but accept the right of others to live by theirs and accept that both must live by the ``law of the land`` if all are to live in tolerance and freedom. ``Extremists`` do not accept this and react with extreme anger and threats of violence ( and actual violence ) to others who do not share their beliefs.

@ nadeem_shahzad,
``You know why? because they are afraid of Islam and out of fear they don’t want to know about true Islam and it is their fear that brings hatred for Islam.``

I, and many many muslims I know, are also afraid of Islams followers. We fear for our children.

``Hypocrisy of western world is they want to blame Islam of the symptoms it is displaying for the injustices that has been meted out to it rather than addressing the cause of those symptoms``

That is true. But why should they address the injustices? No one does that, unless its to their advantage. Muslims/Humans everywhere are no different. My father bought some land from his brother in Pakistan 40 years ago. My father died recently, and our dear uncle, a very good `muslim`, decides to take the land back by going to the court and swearing on the Koran that the Land papers in my posession were fake and the signature upon it, were not his. After a year, we eventually got the land back.
If your own flesh and blood (and `muslim`) can do this, do you expect the west to be better than you?
If all the `muslim` leaders in the world are more corrupt than the west, shouldn`t you or the `militants` sort them out first?

Pehle apne ghar ko sumbhalo. (Manage your own house first).

@ drsyedasad,
``Weakness leads to exploitation``

Very true.

@ Asad Ali,
``The current Western policy of dividing muslims into ‘moderate’ or ‘non-pure’ and ‘fundamentalist’ or ‘pure’ muslims is counterproductive and is never going to work``

No need for the west to divide us. We are already divided.

1.2 billion muslims:
0.2 muslims = ‘severe’
1.0 billion muslims = ‘moderate’ (not muslims at all, but pretending because it`s in their interest to do so).

Re: # 12

Hi billdunc. Greetings.

Being a hybrid of both cultures I can understand both views and the situation.

Not many years ago in USA, if a Negro so much as looked at a white woman, he would get flogged, possibly killed. Slavery was accepted.
Now, in USA, it is accepted that Negroes can marry/have sex with white women.
Were white people not humans a few years ago?
And in a few years they evolved to becoming humans?
What brought this change?
And did it happen overnight?
If all the white people now, could travel back in time and meet their grandparents,
would they be able to reason with them and get them to accept their moderate views?

Whats needed my friend, for the change to happen, is lots of wealth, which buys the:
education,
understanding,
freedom,
tolerance,
etc, etc.

And most importantly, you need time. Time to evolve. Time for new generations to be born. Who are more able and willing to embrace new ideas. Who are strong enough to reject their peers rigid thinking.

You, in the west, can help these people to evolve quicker.
By not supporting supressive regimes.
By not stealing their wealth/resources.
By not selling them arms, so that they murder each other more quickly.
By not destabilising governments that you think may reduce your profits.
Add another 786 ``Thou Shall not`` things here....

The day that I see a shop in Islamabad selling sexy clothes for monkeys with a state of the art hospital for cats next door... I will think ``Yes, the west no longer exploits the east``
:)

re#14
Hello to you KamranISS and I hope your life is good to you and yours.

You are certainly right that we must hope that with time and education and wealth ( I dont mean flashy wealth I mean people having the basic wealth to live a decent life) hopefully comes tolerance and greater understanding. This applies of course as much to western attiitudes as it does to muslim attitudes ( I single them out only in the context of this particular debate.)
My grandmother was an white average fairly uneducated woman of a working class background who died at a ripe old age some years ago. I recall visiting her and her talking about Africans as ``monkeys`` !!! I of course remonstrated with her but couldnt get her to understand how wrong this was. She had heard of evolution and darwin ( at a very basic level!!) and to her simplistic view as Africans were dark skinned and so were monkeys then they must be more closely related to monkeys than we were! What does one do about such determined and ingrained ignorance? It reminds me of the attitudes of some ( a minority I believe) in the Muslim community who think of jews and Christians as inferior. I have even heard Muslims describe Jews as ``pigs``. I think Holocaust denial falls into the same category of ignorance ( willfull sometimes).

Such attitudes can only be challenged by debate and continuing dialogue I think and as you point out such attitudes may pass with the passing of generations.

There are many shameful things that some of our white ancestors did - the african slave trade being one of the worst. I wonder what Muslims, looking back from the future, will make of the Taliban blowing up Buddhist statues, of them bombing schools because girls are being educated, of the Shia/sunni slaughter going on in Iraq, of the beheadings on video tape `` in the name of Allah`` ! I know many Muslims are ashamed of such things now, how much more so as the generations pass.

I agree with your list of things that we in the west can do and that you could add to this list. What do you think those of you not living in the west should do?
Heres my list;
Stop blaming everything on the west.
Get rid of your victim mentality.
Tolerate other religions and beliefs and people who change religion and belief.
Stop seeing religion as the answer to everything (many americans should learn that one!)
And another 768 to you ;-)

We are all Human beings whatever our beliefs.

@KamranISS
“I, and many many muslims I know, are also afraid of Islams followers. We fear for our children”.

I don’t know where you are coming from, but I know where you are going. First of all you are an exception. “Many many muslims are afraid of Islam Followers”, Correction Many Many muslims are afraid of Islamic extremist followers! When you say Islamic follower that statement negates the identity of Muslim. You may be an exception and I am sure there are Muslim you are talking about who are ashamed with the weak Iman and faith and changed their name from Mohammed to Moe after 911 and probably dyed their hair blond with the fake blue contact but that does not represent the majority of Muslim as you say “Many Many”. I am sure the there are faithless muslim amongst us who cursed themselves everyday for being born under Islamic faith but please don’t say that they are “many many” . Understand this today war on Islam is through a strategy of creating and sense of inferiority among muslims by portraying islam as a militant and violent religion and I am sure the muslims weak in faith will fall for this and blame islam and muslims for whatever is happening to this world. But you know KamranISS , It does not really matter, Allah has decided to protect this religion and Allah shall protect it. I am also an enlightened muslim and believe in moderation and believe that there is no compulsion in religion. But I know when my faith is being insulted, annihilated and ridiculed.

“My father bought some land from his brother in Pakistan 40 years ago. My father died recently, and our dear uncle, a very good `muslim`, decides to take the land back by going to the court and swearing on the Koran that the Land papers in my posession were fake and the signature upon it, were not his. After a year, we eventually got the land back.
If your own flesh and blood (and `muslim`) can do this, do you expect the west to be better than you?
If all the `muslim` leaders in the world are more corrupt than the west, shouldn`t you or the `militants` sort them out first?”

Second what ever your Uncle did has nothing to do with Islamic religion. Tell me if your Uncles cheated someone how is that Islam’s Fault? With all logical perspectives somebody explain it to me where does in Quran and in what verse Islam condone cheating people out of their legal possessions? The fact that your uncle was born under a muslim name to muslim parents does not automatically makes him a Momin and True Muslim. Even Allah (SWT) has not absolved muslim and gave them the “free get out of hell card”, whatever they are going to do in this world they will be punished accordingly in hereafter. To be a Muslim it requires a Constant effort on our Part and it is system of constantly questioning you deeds . You on the other hand broad brushed the entire ummah of Islam with the example of your Uncle and implied Hypocrisy on their part. No doubt there is great deal of work that needs to made on the ailments Islam is suffering, but who is going to do it? (if you are stout and I am stout, who is going to carry the dirt out?) You cannot Judge Islam by the Muslims, We are talking about Islam in its essence and Today’s Muslims do not represent Islam. That responsibility lies with us and it requires an on going effort.


“If all the `muslim` leaders in the world are more corrupt than the west, shouldn`t you or the `militants` sort them out first?”

I don’t know what made you put me in the same line as Islamic militant. But I guess if standing up and defending my faith makes me sound like a Militant, I say so be it. It is true that there is Corruption in The Social system but you are confusing the Social system with the Religious system. But tell me what gives west the right attack and insult my Faith if there is a corruption in our Pakistani social system?