Swearing-in Ceremony with Hand on the Bible?

Re: # 641

Sattar2, I really respect all your interacts and we have had decent arguments; but the thing is that we don`t even settle on some basic items --this discards anything further argued. And I have a feeling that I`m also done with this board : )

from now, I refuse to respond to all your posts which bring this fact to my attention:
[On a side note, nothing in Quran suggests that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the last prophet.]



Regards,
RB

raziab (#639),

Your definition of apostasy is one that is convoluted and incorrect. “Apostate” from a Muslim viewpoint is one who leaves Islam. It has nothing to do with sedition.

That is, an apostate may also be a traitor, or he may very well be a patriot. Confusing apostasy with sedition, religion with patriotism is incorrect.

[On a side note, nothing in Quran suggests that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the last prophet. Rather, while suggesting that shariah is now complete, Quran leaves open the door of prophethood. Ahadith on this topic are widely misinterpreted, misunderstood, or ignored … but that’s another discussion]

As for ages, here you go:

Gill Sahib – 345 yrs
myself – at an age when a man usually goes out and buys a red sports car he can’t afford
ntsyed – 6 yrs
Urstruly – still in diapers (btw, I’d be surprised if he’d respond. He usually leaves the board when he can no longer validate his dogma. But then again, he may come back and start ranting against Ahamdis … so all bets are off …)

Re: # 638 by subhashjoshi

ntSyed seems to be presenting ideas well, but i`d like to see urstruly`s response to this post too. Where`s he gone?

Re: # 637 by majumdar+sattar2+ntsyed

After all the previous cool posts of mine, all of a sudden I put on an erroneous veil hein!?
:)

I was only looking through history and found how important it is to give right meanings to things and ensure that they are passed on without alterations.

Anyhow, majumdar ji and sattar2 sahib, please note that i corrected my sentence which you are very concerned about. The meaning stands corrected in post 630:

[apostate is the one who does not accept God`s declaration of Prophet M pbuh as last, singularity of God and the last book Quran and, more importantly, is involved in seditious activit(ies).]

You said you do not beleive in any of the above - I`m not going to go around and mock you and tell you or even act upon punishing you; instead, I am sure you can figure your own results with your R&D. This does not mean I`m saying you are inferior :)
Hope this clarifies.

No where in this sentence i mentioned ``Shall by punished by human beings``. I AM aware of the limitations published by Quran. Sattar2, you already know my views by now.

NtSyed, thank you for your positive comment on my age n` my following of religion: But guess what? Now I have started to wonder how old you guys are?!?!?!


RB

Re: # 618 ntsyed

1. The problem is with interpretation of ``seditious``. What may be non-seditious for one, may be seditious for other. For A, a person quietly quitting his religion is not apostate. For B he is. Yet for C, everyone who doesn`t subscribe to a particular faith may be an apostate.

2. Clashes don`t always happen on the basis of religion, and even when they do, most of the times the underlying reasons are different, with religion being a facade.

3. We are not talking of communities who are ``at war`` with each other, therefore the example of enemy camp etc doesn`t hold good.

4. Non-muslims are not lobbying for ``death to apostates`` in countries of their majority, although that could have been easier. And Islamic countries are some of the most strife-torn places around the world in recent times.

5. The scriptures are not valid for today in toto, because although we do the same things, the way we do them, and also our environment, has changed a lot.

raziab (#625):

[majumdar, this also addresses issues you raised in #633 ...]

Your views seem to be speculative and incorrect. You are attempting to justify punishing others for not accepting Islam. This is a grossly erroneous view.

Look, I too am a Muslim. At the same time I realize and accept the limitations on my role as prescribed by Quran and the Holy Prophet (pbuh). A Muslim should only invite others to Islam in a pleasant, amicable manner and let people decide on their own. Forcing one’s faith on others is a position clearly negated in Islam.

My comments are intended to make you view this issue from different angles before forming opinions. Hopefully we can avoid a protracted debate over this.

ntsyed (#632),

I would hesitate to use the word “always” when referring to execution for sedition. You are overlooking the possibility of one getting reformed and being forgiven.

I thought I had already answered your question, but I’ll clarify again. Any aalim can be wrong, whether he is an Ahmadi-Muslim, or not. And that’s exactly my point! Human works are prone to errors and hence a Muslim should refer to Quran as the main source of guidance. I have advocated this all along and referred to Quran on dealing with apostates, blasphemers, etc. I hope this is now clear. I have highlighted Quranic views on these topics in post #540.

+++

”Pristine forms” were witnessed by those who were present in the company of the Holy Prophet (pbuh). These people were able to ask him for clarification as needed and to learn from his examples.

That pristine form is now long gone. Dear Prophet (pbuh) no longer lives among us. What we are left with are historical records, ahadith, etc. A Muslim should strive to learn from these sources and make an effort to walk in the footsteps of the dear Prophet(pbuh). This is instructed in Quran … and is consistent with my view as well. No arguments there.

At the same time a believer must make an effort to separate truth from interpolations/fabrications. Several recorded ahadith contradict others, while contradicting teachings of Quran. One needs to steer clear of such recorded ahadith and use discretion.

Then there are recorded ahadith that are supported by teachings of Quran, volumes of other ahadith, as well as human reasoning. These ahadith are likely to be authentic and a believer should thus learn from such ahadith.

Now my turn to ask questions (#622):

- Any comments on views of Urstruly?

- What about the litmus test? Should a Muslim convert openly declare his faith? Or should he have to hide it?

- Can an apostate still love his nation? Or does apostasy necessarily mean he is a traitor to the Muslim-nation where he resides?

I too would appreciate straight, unambiguous answers.

Syed sahib,

So what is the solution for non-Islamic states- to reunite church and state and reduce all those people who follow minority faiths or minority interpretation of majority faith to second class citizenship.

Regards

Re: # 620 by subhashjoshi

``Syed saheb, ...I think you haven`t replied to how you will convert people etc.``

The answer lies in:

``The dilemma for the non-Islamic (not just non-Muslim) states is due to their own foolishness of adopting the flawed philosophy of `separation of church and state`, whereby the majorities are disintegrating and are being replaced by other forms/groups. As a result, communal violence in these countries has only grown in one form or another. ...Please just look around for examples.`` [ntsyed #618]

I think you`re intelligent enough to figure out the rest, but do let me know if you require further elaboration.

:-)~~

Razia ji,

(While apostate is the one who does not accept God`s declaration of Prophet M pbuh as last, singularity of God and the last book Quran )

Which effectively means that people like me ought to be murdered as I neither accept the Prophet as the last nor do I accept the Quran as the last book. And worship idols. Right?

Regards

Re: # 622 by sattar2

``You are suggesting that an apostate should be killed if he manifests his apostasy, since such behavior amounts to sedition. This is an unjust, hypocritical view``.

Wrong again!

Sedition is always punishable by death; remember McVeigh, Koresh, etc. of the US of A - country claimed to be champion of `freedom` and `human rights`?

Chanda, first of all you need to answer the main question I`ve put to you:

``- if, by virtue of being a human, our ulema can be wrong, doesn`t the same apply to your ulema that your ulema are just as liable to be wrong as anyone else?``

Only after you`ve answered the previous question, do answer the ones below:

- What do you claim the ``pristine form of what the Holy Prophet (pbuh) did, or spoke, or implied, or discouraged`` were?

- How do you know the ``form`` if they are ``lost and gone forever``?

Answer the three in unambiguous terms, and then we`ll move on. Otherwise, we`ll remain on separate pages which makes the entire discussion pointless.

:-)~~

Re: # 623 by raziab9

razia,

My mistake, I thought by obligations you meant practiciing salaat, saum, zakat, hajj, purdah, and adhering to halal and haram in daily life, etc. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

As far as inviting others to these basics of Islam, masha Allah at your age you`re doing better than a lot of Muslim men and women, older than you. Certainly a lot better than I am.

:-)~~

Re: # 629 by majumdar

I said: [While apostasy is punishing one who does not accept God`s declaration of Prophet M pbuh as last, singularity of God and the last book Quran]

I realize it was important to complete the above sentence like this (And this is proly why you ask this question:)):

While apostate is the one who does not accept God`s declaration of Prophet M pbuh as last, singularity of God and the last book Quran and, more importantly, is involved in seditious activit(ies).

Thus, there only is 1 apostasy policy, really. The next step and the problem is recognition and treatment of this fact.

Definition could partially be understood from ntsyed’s post 618 too

Oops! Have I started a whole new issue?!?
RB

Razia ji,

Who is an apostate? How do you define a non-threatening or a threatening apostate?

Regards

Last sentence should read as …

If a recorded hadith suggests that this is what Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did, authenticity of such ahadith should be challenged by a Muslim … as it suggests that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself violated Quran.

ntsyed (#618), raziab (#626),

Some comments …

+++

`` …What is important to understand is that denunciation of faith is not being punished here. It`s the seditious activity that is punishable by death. If one is a non-believer to begin with, then he must respect the predominant religion, lest clashes between communities are incited…”

Each religion should be respected, whether predominant or not. However, each person has the right to preach his faith to others …without being condemned as a traitor.

One example I can cite is that of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), who openly preached message of Islam to others. He did not disrespect faiths of others, nor did he participate in sedition. He was well within his right to preach Islam to others in a peaceful manner.

It is hypocritical of ummah to now deny the same right to followers of other faiths. Islam grants everyone freedom to peacefully practice his faith. Let’s not confuse religion with patriotism, apostasy with sedition.

+++

”… For the same reason, neither can the people of majority religion force the members of minorities to convert. As far as I understand, this is perhaps the primary wisdom behind Allah`s command that no one should be forced to accept Islam … “

One should not be forced to accept Islam, and neither should one be forced to remain in folds of Islam.

+++

”… Same is true for Muslims in the non-Muslim nations, that they respect the predominant religion and practice their own religion to the extent which doesn`t clash with the majority ...``

If a person residing in a non-Muslim nation accepts Islam, he should be allowed to freely declare and preach his faith to others. Similarly, a Muslim residing in a Muslim state should be allowed to leave Islam and preach his new faith to others.

+++

I am a Muslim with firm faith Quran and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). It is critical for believers to not become overzealous where they lose sight of what is just and fair.

A Muslim should abide by limits set by Allah Almighty and not transgress. In several places Quran warns believers against transgression, so one must be mindful.

In post #540 I showed Quranic verses that set limits on what believers can/should do when dealing with apostates and blasphemers. Overstepping these boundaries is violation of limits set by Allah Almighty. If a hadith suggests that this is what Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did, such hadith should be challenged by a Muslim … as it suggests that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself violated Quran.