India, Pakistan and the Kashmir dispute

I would be more than happy to pay a higher tax in Pakistan if the government can guarrantee the money doesn`t go into their own pockets and goes into giving the kashmiris a home in Pakistan. Again the corruption is the biggest hindrance in our countries and one we must fight by concentrating within ourselves.

To BJKUMAR: I would appreciate it if you stop cracking jokes in the middle of what I`m saying as you`re just distracting any emotional Pakistani away from the discussion. Yes there are too many on both sides unfortunately.

#265

Well said, sir!

A chicken in every pot and a Kashmiri in every kitchen – that’s just the recipe for Pakistan’s resurgence as a major power player again!

Yes, a Kashmiri in every kitchen – perhaps a Bihari, too!

I believe Mr. Salim Chauhan would agree whole-heartedly!

And before someone accuses me of suggesting that we leave our Muslims brothers and sisters to be `raped`, then no, that is not what I am suggesting. Infact if it was upto me, I would have told India to keep Kashmir and allow the Mulims who wish to move to Pakistan a safe passage to Lahore. That would have tested the Mullahs and politicians resolve as the issue on Kashmir is not an issue on the people, but the land! Don`t you think if they were that concerned about the the Muslim brothers and sisters, then at least one smart ass would have come up with that! Where does it say in Islam that one must fight for the land! Do you think the Hindus would care if the Kashmiri Muslims just got up and left for Pakistan! Before the Pakistanis start beating their chests, consider whether you are willing to accommodate a Kashmiri in your home like the Insar people accommodated the Muhajars during the Prophet`s (PBUH) time. Is our government willing to carry the extra burden of more people in the country? Whose rights and for whose benefit are they fighting, are we fighting for anyways? Are we even ready to be the true Muslims that Islam teaches us to be? The clock is ticking...and people are dying as we think...

#263 Saadmd

Finally, a voice of moderation and reason from that jungle of uncouth doe-doe- birds!

[there were people, very much like ‘hamidm’ on this forum, who were distraught at this and in reply, Allah revealed the Surah Al Fath]
I knew it! The Big Honcho had the little gas-bag all figured out WAY before the little gas-bag was born!

[We have to compromise on Kashmir]
Absolutely! And Pakistanis getting out with tail between their legs does not even rise to that definition!

What a great intellectual discussion this forum has turned out to be (sarcasm included). I have read more ways of insulting other religions and nations in this discussion than what should be done about the Kashmir issue. I just hope that all of you are 50-60 yr olds who don’t have long to live because a future like you guys is really not what our countries need!

I have been especially disappointed in the Muslims/Pakistanis on this forum. Being one myself, I feel that I should share with you guys what I think is the real position of Islam on this whole issue, not what some of you self-proclaimed knights of Islam, with the mission of insulting other religions, think is the correct way. You’ve really done your religion proud (NOT!) Now please read this with an open mind:

Islam is a complete religion and has answers to all the issues that one will ever face in life. All you have to do is study it. I am not a scholar (far from it), but I have been lucky enough in my life to have stumbled upon parts of the Quraan for me to share with you on this issue. Those of us who have read about the life of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) would have heard about the Sulah Hudaibiyah (agreement at the plains of Hudaibiyah outside Makkah) in which he compromised with the Kaafirs of Makkah and allowed them to keep the Muslims living in Makkah and even promised to return the Muslims who defect to Madinah back to Makkah. Now there were people, very much like ‘hamidm’ on this forum, who were distraught at this and in reply, Allah revealed the Surah Al Fath (‘Victory’, Chapter 48) in which he promised the Muslims that this agreement is really a victory. I would suggest whoever is interested to read this Surah. Within a year the Kaafirs of Makkah brought about their own downfall through their own excessive indulgences while the Muslims were able to concentrate on improving their own society. Of course I don’t believe (and don’t wish) this will happen to India as I don’t care what they get upto. I am more concerned about the state of my own country!

Don’t you think we have enough problems in our own backyard. The corruption, the abuse to women, the illiteracy, the rich and alcohol addicted elitists and their palaces while the poor are getting pushed deeper into the mud….do we really justify the tag of being an Islamic Republic? We have to compromise on Kashmir and concentrate on education, tolerance between the Sunnis and Shias, developing the western provinces (NWFP and Baluchistan) as it is their right and bringing some order over there (not by force mind you but dialogue and education). We have to do this as this is the only way we can survive. If you don’t trust me then trust God and the Quraan. It is right there in front of you. A true Islamic nation has the capacity to shine and people shouldn’t be afraid of it. Unfortunately nowadays, Muslims have become synonymous with terrorism!

And a parting advise to the insulting lot, the Muslims/Pakistanis who think they are doing a great act of Sawab and earning brownie points with Allah (SWT) by insulting the Hindus. Let me remind you that the Prophet (PBUH) has said that if you insult someone’s parent and they insult yours, then you’ve actually insulted your own parents. On a similar context by insulting other religions/nations you’ve just ended up insulting Islam when the other party reciprocated. Think about it!! It’s this ability that sets us apart from the animals, so don’t lose it!

#259

[give up this obsession that we want to do anything to you or your god forsaken hell hole that you call India.]

Absolutely, it as AGAINST their own wishes that the Pakistanis keep pumping in jihadis into Kashmir and other parts of India, set up jihadi collection boxes all over that heaven-hole, treat international smugglers as VIPs, and send in diplomatically-disguised hijackers for civilian airlines!

And the country of Pakistan, which is on record saying that the “I must hump Kashmir” virus is in its “blood” has NO “obsessions”!

#260

[Pakistan had never claimed Kashmir to be an integral part of Pakistan.]

What a serious, serious mistake! I think somebody ought to be fired. Perhaps some chowk ``intellectuals`` should start agitating.

PS: No one bothered to discuss this article it seems.

The author forgets that the statement that came out of the foreign office was that Pakistan had never claimed Kashmir to be an integral part of Pakistan. The issue was perpetuated by the mentality referred to in 259 and this article is also a product of the same.

This remind me of Spring Break in Benaras- half naked Hindu Fascists gone wild Part II.


Dear Follower of the racist casteist Hindu fascist bigot Gandhi,

Nehru`s comment (Kashmir will be a greater drain on Pakistan- hence we should make it an issue) that I quoted in 191 shows the ugly mentality of communal Hindu mind that poses as ``secular`` but is in reality bigoted to the nth degree. To be sure not every Hindu is like this , nor does Hinduism - a great faith- resemble in the least the bigoted values of Gandhiism... just like Islam does not conform to Bin Ladenism.


Sadna 228,

Your repeated attempts to take the discussion back to Cabinet Mission Plan and ``prove`` how right you guys were in rejecting it (by coming up with stupid claims not rooted in history) is just your guilt and nothing else. Perhaps you are troubled by the fact that now historians in the west studying South Asia have come to a broad consensus along the lines of H M Seervai and Ayesha Jalal`s thesis... and you feel shortchanged and in that nasty position you chaps had placed Pakistanis before those documents were finally declassified.

But those are Academic Discussions. Even the most ardent believers in this historical theory now in vogue about partition- like myself- would NEVER want to live in or share a country with people like you... not the least because you are intolerant and bigoted (which is reason enough) but also because Indians are generally the world`s laughing stock. I have been following India`s ``Bigg Boss`` series for the sheer sickness value of it and my own feeling is that Indians are neither secular nor modern.. but insecure and wannabes marked by thorough lack of class (not caste- Hindu fascists like you are generally very caste conscious mind you) .... the best of you- your models and actresses are just down right disgusting as human beings (and I don`t mean looks- though even there many would raise a number of issues- not me)... so not just for the reasons mentioned above... but for these reasons as well, I am glad I can tell people I am not an Indian.

So please- for god`s sake- give up this obsession that we want to do anything to you or your god forsaken hell hole that you call India. Please- whenever there is an academic discussion, don`t start your nautanki as is your wont.

The Pakistani khaki adventure into Indian Kashmir via proxy jihadis was a well-calculated move – along the lines of “let somebody else do the dirty work while we walk away with the prize”. The “wishes” of the Kashmiri people never did count because that place is too small to count and its natives lack the fighting ability. The Pakistani khaki move had the support of virtually all the Pakistanis – especially of its sycophantic intelligentsia. The adventure was utter idiocy as any outsider would have told those people but, like a series of other utterly idiotic steps – this one was undertaken with full support of its people and only reflected the mindset of that country.

The Pakistani khaki adventure into Indian Kashmir failed because (1) Indian population is more determined to keep Kashmir than (for example) Americans are to see democracy through in Iraq, (2) Jihadis make lousy bed-fellows, (3) the international focus on the country post-9/11 exposed a lot of Pakistani dirty-deeds.

Mushy hates Indian guts no less than the Pakistani “elite” here but he is a bit smarter. He has used up all his cards and had zero success in grabbing Kahmir. He sees the inevitable loss and the path of ruin that lies ahead with the present course. People like Mushy – who have devoted most of their pathetic lives plotting and scheming against the Indians – they do not change their philosophy of “dushman” to “dost” except as per the Pakistani “doctrine of necessity”.

Mushy would like some “breathing space” so his forces can regroup whike the international focus hopefully wanders away.

From Indian perspective,

(1) Pakistan is a shrinking entity – much smaller than 1947.
(2) The khakis have gotten used to power and stopped being servant – now they are masters. The long-term effect can only be a demoralization of the average citizens and an increase in corruption.
(3) Centrifugal forces among states are stronger now than before

So the Indian side needs to do precisely NOTHING!

In chess lingo, the there is an overwhelming advantage the Indian side enjoys. The end game still remains to be played but few should doubt what the end result would be.

Let the end-games begin!

Re: # 255

Janaab Tahmed:

I have repeated what I wrote in its full context below. In case you have sensibility to read and understand again.

---

``...No matter what happens to the government, I think Pakistan will probably be the most liberal islamic society, how it is governed it of lesser importance.

Having said this, yes, I do feel that Musharraff can fix some of Pakistan`s problems. He can also give a direction to relations with India this includes Kashmir (mind you I regard Indian-Kashmir differently than probably you do).

I believe that Kashmir for Pakistan is an emotional problem than a real problem. Musharraff is doing a great job to gradually move Pakistan away from the emotional plane.

Major challenges as I see for Pakistan are building institutions that will devolve power away from the army, reforming education, and create a viable economic model that can handle global imbalance and create value-added jobs.

Religion, much as I do not care, is part of Pakistan like oxygen is to humans.

This is quite different situation from India, no matter what Gujju Bania and BJ conjure image in your mind. Such extremes will exist in India, but institutions are there to marginalize them.

Extremes in Pakistan will also exist. Currently there is no mechanism to control it. Therefore, extremism has spread like cancer in its fabric. Musharraff is trying to tackle it. I do not think he will succeed, and therefore, he will push it only to an extent so that moderates do not loose power in Pakistan. If this is not enough for the U.S., this may be a bad situation for Pakistan.

Considering from India centric view, India has options to deal with the situation where it cannot work out a deal with Pakistan. These options will disappear if its economic progress slows down and cost of controlling become a huge portion of its GDP. Therefore, Man Mohan Singh will play ball with Musharraff to see if minor adjustments to geographic and political situation will yield a deal to improve economic, cultural etc. etc. relations. ``

---

Yes, I do believe terrorism of any kind, wherever it exists, and yes including in Pakistan, is a cancer to the fabric of that society. I also believe and have said so that caste and communal hatred in India is a cancer in India`s fabric and must be eradicated. Just as, not I for the first time, many before me, called racism in S. Africa and in the U.S. to be cancer in the fabric of those societies.

Janaab denial would not help you. Please remember, recognition of the problem is half the solution.

Re: # 255

Janaab Tahmed:

Stop insulting me, just because you refuse you read and understand what I have written. I find it disgusting that you instead of stopping will continue to insult me by referring your own imagination to ``You referred to Pakistan as a cancer.``. At least I have more value than you Janaab, that I do not get involved in such non-sense. I do not need anything from you. You have shown to me how you distort to suit yout convenience, and I have no interest in engaging in any dialog with you. Please read and undestand what I have written when you are able and ready to read and understand.

Thanks

anil: You referred to Pakistan as a cancer. That is your opinion, it reflects your hatred for the very existence of Pakistan, and you are welcome to it.

In response, I told you what I thought of someone who demonstrates this hatred for an entire nation, namely that you need to get used to the idea that Pakistan is there.

And you, instead of the apology you owe to 145 million Pakistanis for your disgusting remark, instead of any self-reflection on the roots of your hatred for Pakistan, you blandly state that you are OK with the existence of Pakistan because you said so in the past, and switch to the role of the hurt soul!! Well - when you refer to Pakistan as a cancer, then you are clearly not OK with its existence. So, no matter how many times you said you accept the existence of Pakistan, you contradicted all that when you made this remark.

And not content with claiming you think the opposite of what you said (and refuse to apologize for or retract your disgusting remark), you try to paint me as the bad guy for responding to disgusting remark about Pakistan by advising me that you once suffered from cancer in real life!! Well tell me this, Mr. overclever Kapadia - if you are really so sensitive to references to cancer, why did you chose to refer to Pakistan as a cancer to begin with?

Excuse me if the above question seems insensitive, but perhaps my original advice to you was not off the mark - get used to the idea of Pakistan. You can either hate it, or you can ignore it, or you can love it. The choice is yours and you are the one who will be better off or worse off depending on what you chose. Pakistan will be fine no matter what you wish upon it.

As for your personal life, I wish good health, a long life, prosperity and happiness to you and to everyone else in India. Why should anyone wish anything else to another nation?

#248 by hamidm2 on December 23, 2006 4:18pm PT


.......... you are a twit


I`m crushed..you just ruined christmas for me..I`m sure santa is going to leave a big lump of coal in my stocking...

Re: # 243

Janaab Tahmed:

Please get it in your head, that I have been saying that Pakistan is here to stay. In case, you have any doubt please quote.

While at it, Janaab Tahmed, I have fought and indeed won the real cancer of blood as well. Please do help your President fight a different cancer that has struck your favorite country.

Re: # 245

Hamidm sahib:

You don`t have to convince me, I am too insignificant. Howver, I would acknowledge my extreme prejudice about Indian-Kashmir. Although General Musharraff must be getting tired of hearing from these leaders about extremism, Kashmir and Sania Mirza advantage. You had asked an honest question, and I gave you the honest answer. You can certanly decide if you accept or reject it.

I may take you up on Lahore for sure. My great granfather, first Indian civil surgeon of U.P., sent his son to the medical college there. I never saw my nana, but my nani used to tell me a lot of stories about my nana`s stay there, and would certainly like to visit that medical college some day.

Also, my father used to tell me that one branches of Kapuria`s went to Quetta, other to Lahore, third to Patiala and fourth (our family) settled in Delhi. I have seen the anscetoral home in Delhi, opposite Ballimaran, which, I was told, was registered during Moghul time. My uncles, part of dead culture, never liked punjabi invasion of Delhi after the partition. Therefore, Delhi has a very special place for me.