India, Pakistan and the Kashmir dispute

DrDr: er....ahem....i counted (but didnt read) the last 19 posts before your post and they were all written by indians. the 20th was hamidm and then there were 5 more indians. And a similar pattern continues. your formula which seems to give equal weight to pakis and indians is way off, dont you think?. :-)

Beej

Between the two of us brothers, you were always the good one, ever more optimistic about humanity`s certain triumph over its challenges. :)

empirical chowk rule:
quality of a board decays as
exp (-(# of days*A/B)) w/ B>A; A=# pakis (injuns); B=# of injuns (pakis)

no wonder this bd has gone 2 hell in a handbasket

#338 by kaalchakra

I happen to be a lot more optimistic than you on this issue.

I believe that a lot of “people’s” support (to use the term loosely) to the Kashmiri insurgency is rooted in the fact that families have been forcibly split up on both sides of the border and there may be individuals on the Indian side who have little available in how to express their dissatisfaction. Making the border porous for THOSE individuals (but not for the jihadis pumped by Pakistan – by using better technology) will truly undermine the Pakistani designs of revving up the insurgency.

I am also convinced that, given the chance, the probability is much higher that the Pakistanis will become more like the Indians and not vice-versa. Because MOST people (with the exception of demagogues and lawyers) use common sense for themselves unless they are subjected to media that is tightly controlled and are subject to a skewed educational system like the Pakistanis have been for sixty years! Therefore, ANY exposure to the Indian system is good.

Therefore, the arguments that mian HP makes – like many of his other arguments on similar issues are at their core – VERY hollow!

The other shoe, of course, is to drop the Article 370 – which, in my view, is only a matter of time!

And even more critical is to ensure there is complete fairness in the way India treats its Muslims and (most importantly) provides them all the protections of law and order mechanisms that is their birthright as citizens of that great democracy!

VRV

HP has been a follower of G.M. Syed. He is unlikely to have to become an ISI insider :)

He is an insider in the sense that he is very exprienced in and knowledgeable about Pakistani politics. There is a lot one can learn from him (even after all regular headbutting).

Re: # 340



THE ZENEVA CONVENTION ON TREATMENT OF WAR CRIMINALS.

I think it`s PoW i/o War Criminals.

Re: # 338

KC,

He`s thinking loudly abt Pak strategy. Being an insider to ISI, he shud not speak out abt the aspect u highlighted.

In any case, India let Mush or XYZ leader of Pak speak in as many angles as possible as long as we`re allowed to fence the LoC (Pak had no balls to cry `fowl` or threaten us; for the rationale pl see my post 340 on the cowardice of Pak army and by implication Pak`s master!).

We dont let them have an inch of Kashmir either hook or by crook (under the guise of `talks`). Dr. Singh is too clever & let Mush feel great abt his own boorish `solutions`.

Let people like hamid2 shift his home to another tree in angst.

Ranjits, Mohars & Arjuns,

I feel like giving the exact conversayion between Maj Gen Jacob and Niazi. That wud put record straight as to who`s brave & who`s a coward. Btw, people like HP bragg so much abt bravery of Pakistanis and that of Injuns. In fact Liaqat Ali Khan said so many times till he`s alive.

(Source: http://in.rediff.com/news/2006/dec/20jacob.htm)

..............

Maj Gen Jacob:

Anyway, I was wondering what was going to happen as I walked back after half an hour. The paper I gave him was lying on the table.

``General, do you accept this paper?`` I asked.

He kept quiet, he didn`t answer. I asked him three times.

So I picked it up, and held it high, and said, ``I take it that it is accepted.``

There were tears were in his eyes. There were glares from the other Pakistani generals and admirals.

I had no advice, no orders, other than to get a surrender. I didn`t know what was going to be signed.

What came to be signed had to be re-signed in Calcutta two weeks later. The signed document was wrong.

I will surrender in my office, Niazi said.

I said no, I have already given instructions that you will surrender at the racecourse, in front of the people of Dhaka.

``I won`t,`` he said.

``You will,`` I said. ``You will also provide a guard of honour.

...

I made my own modalities for the surrender.

This surrender is unique, the only public surrender in history where a ceasefire was converted into surrender and signed in four hours. Niazi had the capacity to fight on for two to three weeks, and the UN was in session.
......

....

After the signing, the crowd was wanting to lynch Niazi. We had very few troops there. So we had put a cordon around Niazi, put him in an army jeep which whisked him away.


+++++++++

N.B: THAT`S HOW A PROFESSIONAL SOLDIER CONDUCTS HIMSELF I.E HONOURING THE ZENEVA CONVENTION ON TREATMENT OF WAR CRIMINALS.

+++++++++

Poser to people like HP.

Niazi had 30,000 soldiers and Jacob had just 3,000. Niazi had capacity to engage Indian army for abt a month but chose to surrender much like French during II WW. Who`s more brave? Indian or Pakistani soldiers? No rpizes for the right answer. Swalllow ur saliva and have a glass of water to clear the lump in ur throat!

Get this right! Since Pakistan cant face Indian army fair and square in Kashmir u need to resort to mosquito tactics.....

#337

Arjun, you make legitimate points many times and Lord knows the Pakistani rulers have created enough problems for India, and even more for their own population – to deserve your ridicule. And by all means, do talk about the apparent inherent hypocrisy of the positions many Pakistani “intellectuals” here take. All that is fine!

But I would recommend drawing a line there and not using derogative terms like “Paki”. Pakistanis are the same people as “us” Indians – even though many of them come across as highly damaged through poisonous indoctrination and having been brought up with the wrong set of family values (regarding how to look at non-Muslims) – and were not helped too much by the virtual absence of exposure to ANY minorities.

Your tirades against “Pakis” adds nothing to the value of arguments that you make – in fact it reduces their legitimacy. In particular, when you bring up (apparently with relish) cases of individual hardship and you use such cases to make sweeping generalization on that whole population – I find it extremely distasteful!

I hope you can clean up that part of your act!

ranjit, mohar, vrv, arjun

The point HP is making is that once you allow free movement of people across the line of control, Kashmiri (Muslim) population will naturally become part of Pakistan (kashmiri non Muslim population having been eliminated or driven out), whether India maintains symbols of control or not.

This is not an argument to to be totally ignored.

#333 by ranjit on December 25, 2006 2:58pm PT


So why argue about fait accompli?


What can be more entertaining than watching paki knickers in a twist...?

#335 Mohar

Why would ANYONE want to duplicate the feat that the Pakistani fauzis have been doing for the last sixty years?!!

Physically speaking!

Re: # 333

Just to kick a few paki a$$es - figuratively speaking... :)

Re: # 333

Ranjit,

`INDIA WILL NEVER, EVER GIVE UP KASHMIR. Thats it. Period!! Jo karna hai, kar lo...`

Cant agree more.

They cant do anything worse than what they are doing in Kashmir & other parts of India.

Re:VRV, arjun2, mohar et al

Yaar, why do you guys waste your breath debating Kashmir? It is all quite simple. INDIA WILL NEVER, EVER GIVE UP KASHMIR. Thats it. Period!! Jo karna hai, kar lo....

We have nukes and are more than willing to use them as necessary. So why argue about fait accompli?

Re: # 329

HP sahib:

1947 mein Kashmiri dilwala dulhaniya ley gaya tha, sahib. Aur uski kashmiran beti ne 1971 woh kar diya jo dilwala nahi kar saka to seal the future. Ab HP sahib, dulhaniya begam ke great grand children ki sochiye. Unko BJ Bihari ya mulla maulana hijack na kar lein. Aur apne ghar ko no bhool jayein, mulla maulana na lein jayein. Zara Sochiye.

Agar mere ko Kashmir ka minister bana diya to mein aap key swiss cows to import kar doonga.

Monkey ki problem hogi. Uske key liye mein Pakistani tourist ko ijazat de doonga saath mein laane key liye. Kum se kum Pakistani, monkeys ki bhi pooja ho jayegi, 60 saalon se nahin hui hai.

Politics mein kuch nahin rakha hai.

Kahtein hai “tail ki dhar dekhiye, aur dushmanon mein dost dekhiye.”

Karl Rove should have proved it for you, political opinion can be managed by a handful of persons, and presidency delivered. Kashmir kya hai, Lallo se seekhiye.

Meri tou yahi khawaish hai, aage aapki marzi.