India, Pakistan and the Kashmir dispute

dost mittar: between you and hamidm, you are having about as intelligent a discussion as ever occurs on chowk.

in that spirit, i think you should realize that when you start talking vague generalities like ``pakistani elite`` your arguments lose substance since elite can mean many different things (professionals, businessmen, politicians, landowners, tribal heads, religious leaders - and your statement clearly does not apply to all of these groups or even to all members of this group).

similarly, your use of shaky assumption and strong words (i.e. when you declare that ``akhand bharat, only some fools, including some Mohajirs on your side, dream about it.``) weakens whatever argument you are making - this applies to bj`s post below only, whose weaknesses hamidm has dealt with admirably in #196.

So - please try to come up with stronger reasoning so I may have the pleasure of agreeing with an Indian on chowk, which happens all too rarely. :-)

To bjkumar. All you have proved in your worthless replies is your ability to swear and insult people. You think you can solve all the problems with your `witty` little remarks and `sense of humour` with an added whiff of a mother-in-law joke. You can`t even handle a class full of turtles as they will just walk away from you after growing tired of your endless tirade.
Here`s a common argument among the Indian folks: there was no need for a partition and the border was absolutely unnecessary (hence Jinnah is a villain). If you ask me, I feel a lot better that there is a border between the extremist elements in Pakistan AND India (yes, contrary to bjkumar`s assertions, there are extremist elements among the Hindus as well in India). Now imagine the problem in Kashmir, but only much bigger (think the size of Pakistan). That`s what the border has given us, a breathing space, for the two people/nations to separate and look at each other at an arm`s length and then hopefully one day learn to compromise.

hamidm:

You misinterpreted my post. The point of it was not to recall the horrors of partition but to show that the Islamisation of Pakistan did not happen abruptly under Zia but was, instead, a slow and steady movement, which was not opposed by the elite until it touched them personally and to support my original point that Musharraf is the first ruler who is trying to reverse this process; indeed it continued right up to Nawaz Sharif`s time who wanted to be the first Amir-ul-Musalmeen.

As for akhand bharat, only some fools, including some Mohajirs on your side, dream about it. The best we can hope for is for the two counries to live as good, normal neighbours.

[I did not mention the equally horrible genocide of Muslims in East Punjab precisely because the point was not the Partition killing but the islamisation of your country].

Re: # 197

dost-mittar,

point well taken ........... the biggest culprits in this creeping ``islamization`` has been the urban middle class and not so much the elite who have passively stood on the side lines with their glasses of imported whiskey - the middle class, on the other hand, have been active participants in the process .......

..........even though some elements of islamization existed before zia - for example bhutto`s dastardly act against the ahmedis and, most importantly, his monstrous ban on alcohol - radical islam in it`s most hideous and virulent form was introduced and institutionalized during zia`s time ............ and once the genie was out of the bottle everyone, including nawaz sharif, thought they could make it dance to their tune ........ even musharraf tried to do the same thing when he got into the hamam with the mullahs before he realized that he could not bend over to pick up the soap ........... religion, particularly islam, is a whore that everyone is willing to use but only diehard mullahs and brahmins are willing to marry ..............

....... i agree that musharraf is now trying to put this genie back in the bottle, but his praetorian desire to hang on to power forces him to cut deals with mullahs and other unsavory and shady characters ....... putting religion in its proper place is not that difficult in pakistan because the common man has much bigger problems than worrying about how many women he can bed in heaven - and an elected government of knaves and fools can do it much better than a egotistical dictator who continues to play one end against the other ............ on the other hand, an elected government would not back-pedal on kashmir either !

ps. if fair and free elections were held the mullahs would probably loose to the ppp and its allies even in the frontier ..............

Re: # 200
Middle class is buffer between two extremes.
Generally they are anxious and people with awareness and have time and inclination for future changes. Very well to do always survive and prosper in any regime. Poor are poor to have time to think or too do any thing , generally they do not get angry or too diturbed as life is so hard.
If regimes take care of middle classes normally then nobody will make problems and things will be fine.
This class is never happy as their aspirations and real life refuse to meet. Most restive and dangerous class though small in numbers. Middle classes are like indicator of future.

#194

[…it is rather strange that my mother-in-law never talks about how her family was pushed out of some village in east Punjab…]

Don’t act too self-righteous about it, my man! Your mother-in-law does not talk about that dreadful experience following partition because the man who single-handedly brought the calamity of partition around – the vamp himself – was the object of her affection and undying love and you guys were doing your daily poojas of the vamp’s picture, thanking him daily for getting you off the clutches of the “evil Hindoos” – and if your great grand mother-in-law was anything like the Manto – probably taking the vamp’s picture to bed also for stimulation and increased inside-bed gratification level!

There is no fool like an old fool! So how old are you, mian?!

Re: # 195


bj,

...... let`s not drag poor jinnah into it and please don`t start posting pictures of naked men again ! ......... i just had breakfast

.......... personally i am thankful to mister jinnah for making sure that i didn`t have to grow up with you as a neighbor ......... on the other hand, maybe if you and i had grown up together i could have beat some sense into you and you would have been a better man now ...... i know, i know, there is urstruly !

Re: # 182

dost-mittar,

``They were not affected when Hindus and Sikhs were killed and ethnically cleansed from their homes``

.......... on behalf of my father`s generation i apologize for the injustice done to your people .......... but it is rather strange that my mother-in-law never talks about how her family was pushed out of some village in east punjab .......... this summer, after twenty years of knowing her, was the first time i heard about her harrowing experience as a young girl fleeing with her mother and two sisters while her father stayed behind hoping to save his house - he never made it to pakistan ............

......... most pakis have moved on and it is time you indians also accepted the reality of partition and got on with your lives instead of dreaming of a united hindoo india that existed in chandra gupta maurya`s time - a lot of water (and blood) has flown under the bridge since then .............. and kashmir is unfinished business from partition that has to be settled - just because india refuses to recoginize the problem won`t make it go away ................

#192 ylh: Is a fat nazi worse than a thin nazi?

PS:

Right thinking Muslims and the true Islamic principles don`t really leave any room for an equivalent concept to that of the fascist Gandhian concept of exclusivist theocratic Ram Rajya (DisclaimerIn my view Gandhiism and Bin-Ladenism are perverted forms of fascisms that use Hindu and Islamic symbols but have nothing in common with true Hinduism and true Islam)... but lets humor the fat nazi (aka follower of Racist Casteist Hindu Fascist exclusivist bigot Gandhi) and say that there was an ``Islamic Ram Rajya`` that some people are after...

So the Fat Nazi thinks only half naked frauds have the right to speak of Ram Rajya. Wah bhai.

Mr. Fat Nazi (follower of the racist casteist exclusivist hindu fascist bigot Gandhi) who claims to have the monopoly on the truth says:

``The Kashmiri war was imposed on India by the Pakistani khakis.``

During the first year after Independence, Sri Prikasa, Nehru`s handpicked high commissioner in Karachi, reported to Mountbatten that the best solution to all issues will be giving Kashmir to Pakistan.

Jawaharlal Nehru wrote:

``I was amazed that you hinted at Kashmir being handed over to Pakistan. If we did anything of the kind, our Government would not last many days and there would be no peace.... it would lead to war with Pakistan because of the public opinion here and warlike elements coming in control of our policy. We cannot and will not leave Kashmir to its fate... the Fact that Kashmir is of most vital significance to India... Here lies the rub.... we have to see this through to the end. Kashmir is going to be a drain on our resources, but it is going to be a greater drain on Pakistan. ``

Page 189- Shameful Flight by Stanley Wolpert.


I can see why you have a problem with Edolphus Towns by the way... as a true follower of the Hindu fascist Gandhi, you believe that all black people are subhuman don`t you?

#181 by anil

Anil, I wish to be nice to you because you are probably a good man. You also have a soft corner for that piece of land whence you originate. Your attachment to the land whose people kicked your folks out worse than a used tissue paper is rather touching. But I do you no favor if I withhold the truth.

You are just as captive of your nostalgia as the old Pakistanis here are captive of their vision of that Ummah - that Islamic Ram-Rajya – which only exists in their minds!

Leave aside the history. A lot of geographic boundaries of this world today are historical accidents – including those of the various countries of the middle east and certainly the land of the free where you and I park our asses. So what is the big deal! People live within their boundaries and build themselves up – and they do it all over the world!

Not this Pakistani crowd. These folks nurse their “grievance” and get the maximum mileage that they can out of it to make the point that…

To make the point that….

That they are a “wronged” people! And somehow it is not THEIR fault that they are in the soup!

Bottom line: India did not want this nild pain in the rear which was present since 1947 but came full bloom in 1989. And the Pakistanis were fine with the status quo and things were getting better until the Kashmiris started agitating and the Pakistanis – in their “high” of acquiring nukes – started dreaming of making India surrender “in one hour”! (Isn’t the guy who made that claim still revered in Pakistan?!)

It is downright heart-breaking to see you entertain yourself with the vision of the great economic boom coming in and overcoming old mindsets and old thought processes. Need I remind you that the Saudi Sheikhs were just an amusing bunch of jokers prior to 1973 – and did not become the fountain of terrorism till those oil taps were turned on and these folks started becoming filthy rich. And looking for examples nearer home – look at the “fat cat” Pakistanis here – you think they are starving? The truth is – when morons get rich, they do not become any smarter – they keep doing moronic things because they are morons – only their moronic acts are more damaging. They do MORE damage, not less.

You can dangle all kinds of economic carrots before this beast of religious fanaticism – but you can NEVER make him drink from that well of peace.

Let’s take a couple of walks.

Prior to the second world war, there were many Jewish folks in Europe who thought they could make a “deal” with the Nazis and survive there – perhaps not as first class citizens, but with dignity intact. They found out otherwise. (You still wonder why I empathize with the Jewish folks?!). Tell me Anil, where are the folks now that stayed back in those lands?

After 1947, there were plenty of Hindu folks in Pakistan who thought they could live there and make it their home– if not as first class citizens, at least with dignity intact.. Tell me Anil, where are those folks now that stayed back in that land?

And once upon a time not too long ago, there was a valley called Kashmir where there lived a few hindus who – having lived there for ages – thought their “Kashmiriyat” was above being a casualty to religious bigotry fueled and orchestrated from across the border.

Tell me, O Anil, where are those folks now?

The bottom line my dear is – it does not matter what house of cards of “Kashmirit” you construct in your own mind, there is still a “wolf” out there who has every intention of huffing and puffing and bringing that house of cards down!

You count nickels and dimes my friend, and somehow forget the commodity that you ought to put premium on – your own life!

The wolf is not interested in your nickels and dimes – he wants your neck, so then he can drink your blood and eat your flesh and feel grrrreat and roar and proclaim his superiority over you and move on to the next target!

And therefore, what exactly were the Kashmiris agitating for, pray tell me? A right to self-govern? They already had it as a full-fledged state (and more) under the Indian Union – certainly more than they have in Pakistan.

Let me spell it out for you.

R-E-L-I-G-I-O-N!

It was the religion, sir! And guess what – that topic is not going away any time soon.

It is absolutely foolish to think that the bomb blasts in Mumbai and countless other crimes, including IC-814 (which almost every “educated” hypocrite of a Pakistani here always looks AWAY from (how is that for objectivity?)) which happened inside India would have simply not happened had the Indians merely given way to the Pakistanis.

India is a concept more than a geographic entity. Just like America is.

As an “Indian” I feel the same way about India as I feel as an “American” towards America. I have absolutely no sympathy for those individuals who live in a land, live off it, get rich there then go about maligning it and praising ruthless dictators in foreign lands.

Be it “Indian” Kashmiris who call Indian security forces “dogs” or be they desis in Amrikka who enjoy its hospitality but identify with the interests of a mythical Islamic “Dar Ul Islam”. Such individuals are traitors and heels.

There is not a single thing I said in #175 that you are able to counter. You talk in vain because you talk to yourself and you do not wish to face the reality which is rather unpleasant for you to face and rather uncomfortable for the Mantos to admit.

I empathize with your pain but it is my duty to inform you that people who start believing their own buck-wash to the exclusion of simple plain facts – like the Manto – make a sad sight. Now go pinch yourself, and wake up!

That is how I see it and that is how I call it.

anil: we pakis are indeed blind to the genius of einstein arjun and other indian luminaries on chowk. ha! ha!

#186 monkey man says ``, it means squat... `` just like a gora for the millionth time. ha! ha!

#181 by anil on December 22, 2006 6:19pm PT


Musharraff and Man Mohan are visionary enough to bring a closer.


Mushy is a visionary?

Aandhon me kaana raja.. the pakis are blind to reality and mushy has belatedly seen a little bit of light...

Re: # 186

Arjun:

``Aandhon me kaana raja.. ``

Don`t you think he would have the best vision among ``aandhon``? And hence the raja. Thus their raja by your definition has seen it.

Besides, associated with your name sake, is a story that only he was allowed to shoot the arrow, becuase he could only see the ``one eye``. This is a lot of wisdom to this ``one eye vision``.