India, Pakistan and the Kashmir dispute

empirical chowk rule:
quality of a board decays as
exp (-(# of days*A/B)) w/ B>A; A=# pakis (injuns); B=# of injuns (pakis)

no wonder this bd has gone 2 hell in a handbasket

#338 by kaalchakra

I happen to be a lot more optimistic than you on this issue.

I believe that a lot of “people’s” support (to use the term loosely) to the Kashmiri insurgency is rooted in the fact that families have been forcibly split up on both sides of the border and there may be individuals on the Indian side who have little available in how to express their dissatisfaction. Making the border porous for THOSE individuals (but not for the jihadis pumped by Pakistan – by using better technology) will truly undermine the Pakistani designs of revving up the insurgency.

I am also convinced that, given the chance, the probability is much higher that the Pakistanis will become more like the Indians and not vice-versa. Because MOST people (with the exception of demagogues and lawyers) use common sense for themselves unless they are subjected to media that is tightly controlled and are subject to a skewed educational system like the Pakistanis have been for sixty years! Therefore, ANY exposure to the Indian system is good.

Therefore, the arguments that mian HP makes – like many of his other arguments on similar issues are at their core – VERY hollow!

The other shoe, of course, is to drop the Article 370 – which, in my view, is only a matter of time!

And even more critical is to ensure there is complete fairness in the way India treats its Muslims and (most importantly) provides them all the protections of law and order mechanisms that is their birthright as citizens of that great democracy!

VRV

HP has been a follower of G.M. Syed. He is unlikely to have to become an ISI insider :)

He is an insider in the sense that he is very exprienced in and knowledgeable about Pakistani politics. There is a lot one can learn from him (even after all regular headbutting).

Ranjits, Mohars & Arjuns,

I feel like giving the exact conversayion between Maj Gen Jacob and Niazi. That wud put record straight as to who`s brave & who`s a coward. Btw, people like HP bragg so much abt bravery of Pakistanis and that of Injuns. In fact Liaqat Ali Khan said so many times till he`s alive.

(Source: http://in.rediff.com/news/2006/dec/20jacob.htm)

..............

Maj Gen Jacob:

Anyway, I was wondering what was going to happen as I walked back after half an hour. The paper I gave him was lying on the table.

``General, do you accept this paper?`` I asked.

He kept quiet, he didn`t answer. I asked him three times.

So I picked it up, and held it high, and said, ``I take it that it is accepted.``

There were tears were in his eyes. There were glares from the other Pakistani generals and admirals.

I had no advice, no orders, other than to get a surrender. I didn`t know what was going to be signed.

What came to be signed had to be re-signed in Calcutta two weeks later. The signed document was wrong.

I will surrender in my office, Niazi said.

I said no, I have already given instructions that you will surrender at the racecourse, in front of the people of Dhaka.

``I won`t,`` he said.

``You will,`` I said. ``You will also provide a guard of honour.

...

I made my own modalities for the surrender.

This surrender is unique, the only public surrender in history where a ceasefire was converted into surrender and signed in four hours. Niazi had the capacity to fight on for two to three weeks, and the UN was in session.
......

....

After the signing, the crowd was wanting to lynch Niazi. We had very few troops there. So we had put a cordon around Niazi, put him in an army jeep which whisked him away.


+++++++++

N.B: THAT`S HOW A PROFESSIONAL SOLDIER CONDUCTS HIMSELF I.E HONOURING THE ZENEVA CONVENTION ON TREATMENT OF WAR CRIMINALS.

+++++++++

Poser to people like HP.

Niazi had 30,000 soldiers and Jacob had just 3,000. Niazi had capacity to engage Indian army for abt a month but chose to surrender much like French during II WW. Who`s more brave? Indian or Pakistani soldiers? No rpizes for the right answer. Swalllow ur saliva and have a glass of water to clear the lump in ur throat!

Get this right! Since Pakistan cant face Indian army fair and square in Kashmir u need to resort to mosquito tactics.....

Re: # 340



THE ZENEVA CONVENTION ON TREATMENT OF WAR CRIMINALS.

I think it`s PoW i/o War Criminals.

#337

Arjun, you make legitimate points many times and Lord knows the Pakistani rulers have created enough problems for India, and even more for their own population – to deserve your ridicule. And by all means, do talk about the apparent inherent hypocrisy of the positions many Pakistani “intellectuals” here take. All that is fine!

But I would recommend drawing a line there and not using derogative terms like “Paki”. Pakistanis are the same people as “us” Indians – even though many of them come across as highly damaged through poisonous indoctrination and having been brought up with the wrong set of family values (regarding how to look at non-Muslims) – and were not helped too much by the virtual absence of exposure to ANY minorities.

Your tirades against “Pakis” adds nothing to the value of arguments that you make – in fact it reduces their legitimacy. In particular, when you bring up (apparently with relish) cases of individual hardship and you use such cases to make sweeping generalization on that whole population – I find it extremely distasteful!

I hope you can clean up that part of your act!

ranjit, mohar, vrv, arjun

The point HP is making is that once you allow free movement of people across the line of control, Kashmiri (Muslim) population will naturally become part of Pakistan (kashmiri non Muslim population having been eliminated or driven out), whether India maintains symbols of control or not.

This is not an argument to to be totally ignored.

Re: # 338

Well, then what was the need for pakis fighting jihad and 3 wars over kashmir? all they had to do was allow ``free`` movement of people and kashmir would have been banega pakistan...In fact - there was relatively free movement of people before pakis started 1965 war....

The ``free movement`` is dependent on stop of jihad and violence.. thus increasing business activities... indian corporate/business presence will increase as well as movement of people to and from kashmir and the mainland.... tourists as well as residents... there will be tigther integration with mainland... And of course, at the same time, there will be movement of people from pakistani side, probably lesser numbers... how does that translate to ``kashmir banega pakistan``?...

HP is like baghdad bob - don`t waste your time on his ``analyses``... :)

Re: # 348

PS: Only risk is - if pakis take advantage of free movement to step up jihad and violence... that`s something india has to guard against... and that`s still an open question... india is going to take it slow and calibrate according to the situation on ground...

Hopefully pakis will resist the tendency to play that game - otherwise, it will be back to sqaure one with more kashmiri blood flowing...

But - there seems to be positive changes in pakiland in some fundamental ways... hopefully that will be accelerated... the relative peace on kashmir may even help the process of moderation... in absence of an hostile/conspiratorial intent on part of pakis - there was no reason kashmir to go out of control - in any sense of the word...

It all depends on many factors... we will see how it unfolds...

Re: # 338

KC,

He`s thinking loudly abt Pak strategy. Being an insider to ISI, he shud not speak out abt the aspect u highlighted.

In any case, India let Mush or XYZ leader of Pak speak in as many angles as possible as long as we`re allowed to fence the LoC (Pak had no balls to cry `fowl` or threaten us; for the rationale pl see my post 340 on the cowardice of Pak army and by implication Pak`s master!).

We dont let them have an inch of Kashmir either hook or by crook (under the guise of `talks`). Dr. Singh is too clever & let Mush feel great abt his own boorish `solutions`.

Let people like hamid2 shift his home to another tree in angst.

#333 by ranjit on December 25, 2006 2:58pm PT


So why argue about fait accompli?


What can be more entertaining than watching paki knickers in a twist...?

#335 Mohar

Why would ANYONE want to duplicate the feat that the Pakistani fauzis have been doing for the last sixty years?!!

Physically speaking!

Re:VRV, arjun2, mohar et al

Yaar, why do you guys waste your breath debating Kashmir? It is all quite simple. INDIA WILL NEVER, EVER GIVE UP KASHMIR. Thats it. Period!! Jo karna hai, kar lo....

We have nukes and are more than willing to use them as necessary. So why argue about fait accompli?

Re: # 333

Just to kick a few paki a$$es - figuratively speaking... :)

Re: # 333

Ranjit,

`INDIA WILL NEVER, EVER GIVE UP KASHMIR. Thats it. Period!! Jo karna hai, kar lo...`

Cant agree more.

They cant do anything worse than what they are doing in Kashmir & other parts of India.

#308 by hamidm2
“thanks for your insightful, astute and optimistic analysis of the kashmir issue”

Thanks.

“or a moment there anil and dost almost convinced me to abandon the poor Kashmiris”

These two gentlemen may appear well meaning but don‘t understand the political process. They are political simpletons and perhaps have no knowledge how things work in the real world.

Now to other posters:

What did I write in my post #296 that is not true?


1. Is it not true that Indian cities and villages are drowning under the filth? Read a very insightful article in online WSJ “Delhi Dilemma...Why India`s capital may never become a world-class city” by Shikha Dalmia
to get some clues…the article appeared on 12/20/06( this is copyrighted material otherwise I would have posted the article here.( now khasis would not have any qualms abt violating the COPYRIGHTS LAWS)

2. Is it not true that the most revered Indian rivers Ganga and Jamna are nothing but sewer canals?

3. Is it not true the Indian cities and rivers are more polluted than they ever were before the partition?

4. Is it not true that cows, cow dung and piss are the most visible monuments of Indians love for cleanliness? Btw, Is it not true the you commonly see women following cows and picking up cow droppings in baskets for use as energy and paint alternate?

The real problem is that truth hurts these khasis and they find it hard to face the facts and realities about the filth-pool macaca land.

Tahemd,
Someone has to show mirror to these reality-challenged nincompoops who while living in the west, forget that where they have come from and what their cities look like.

Now a word about Pakistani cities. I know there is still a lot to be done there but compare any Pakistan city small and large to what they looked liked in 1947 and you will see a marked improvement in sanitation, cleanliness and pollution. There is no Pakistani river that is as polluted as most of the Indian rivers are.