India, Pakistan and the Kashmir dispute

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Mantobhai,

Came across this gem on the ``Failed State`` board. Aap bhi naa, kabhi kabhi...

<<< #31 by Mantolives on May 7, 2006 12:25pm PT

Also I think we need to see the news from Washington collectively...

I believe that these reports + Richard Boucher`s statements a month firmly indicate that Musharraf`s regime is about to lose US backers... and that would mean the end to this government within the next six to 10 months... >>>

Maybe you would now want to revise your prediction.

Happy New Year all....

Manto mian,

(Kerala has several Muslim Majority districts that by Congress` logic should have gone to Pakistan. )

Only one as a matter of fact and that is Mallapuram. And incidentaly Mallapuram was only a sub-division and was raised to the state of a district I believe only in 1980s as an act of appeasement by one of the state govt.

(As for Gurdaspur.... we are talking 1947 and not post 1974.)

But if Maulana Urstruly (pbuh) is to believed in Allah`s Constitution, they are not Muslims and surely Allah`s Constitution, which is timeless, should supersede Pakistani Constitution on any matter of faith at any point of time, a principle which I guess was recognised in 1974.

Regards

#416 by Mantolives on December 28, 2006 5:40am PT


The guy who assumes too much erroneously suggested that there is some sort of bar against a Non-muslim becoming the COAS in Pakistan...

In the Pakistan Army, legally any Pakistani citizen regardless of religion, caste, creed and now gender can become the Chief of the Army Staff.


Of course...there`s also no explicit law on the books banning pigs from flying....

Majumdar mian,

Kerala has several Muslim Majority districts that by Congress` logic should have gone to Pakistan.

As for Gurdaspur.... we are talking 1947 and not post 1974. It is a settled principle of law that pending disputes are settled according to the laws enforced during then and we know that in 1947 Ahmadis were ardent Muslim Leaguers and accepted as Muslims by the then Pakistani interim constitution.

Manto mian,

(besides how many Non-Christians have become the CinC of the US Armed Forces and/or the Chief Executive of the US. )

But quite a few religious minority figures have become C-in-C and President/PM of a non-secular, non-democratic nation next door to your country.

Hmmm, you have again raised the partition of a country versus partition of state argument.

(In other words all Muslim majority districts in modern day India- especially since most of them had voted for Muslim League- should have gone to Pakistan as well. )

They did except of course J&K, one distt. in WB (I think Maldah) and Gurdaspur, although the Muslim majority in the last distt. depends on whether a certain sect is considered Muslim or not. Sattarbhai thinks yes, Maulana Urstruly (pbuh), Raziabi and the Pakistani Constt. say no.

Have to rush home else would have discussed in greater details.

Regards

Here is a close-up view of the Pakistani Constitution!

Let the MANTO read its fine print - most people simply notice what it was used for!

The guy who assumes too much erroneously suggested that there is some sort of bar against a Non-muslim becoming the COAS in Pakistan...

In the Pakistan Army, legally any Pakistani citizen regardless of religion, caste, creed and now gender can become the Chief of the Army Staff.

Infact legally all secular offices - barring the President of the Republic- are open to all citizens of Pakistan without any discrimination of faith, caste, creed or gender... but since the President o the Republic is more often than not the COAS... one could say that it is open to all Non-Muslims who might become the COAS. (I personally think that it would be great if we got rid of the Muslim President clause..)

Ofcourse... in reality, the chances of a Non-Muslim becoming the COAS or Prime Minister of Pakistan are quite bleak... but then we never know... besides how many Non-Christians have become the CinC of the US Armed Forces and/or the Chief Executive of the US.

Partition of Bengal and Punjab ... a response:

If a group and in our case a minority (which formed natural majorities at certain extremities in our case) with a particular set of characteristics - language or religious beliefs or race or any combination thereof, having bent over backwards to appease another stronger group - in our case the majority- chooses to go its own way, those particular set of characteristics that defined them as a group in the first way need not be called a ``trump`` card. (At other places the weaker and the stronger group may not be minority or majority and it would still be legitimate) Instead one ought to look at those circumstances - all of which I have mentioned on several occasions- that led to such a situation.

In our particular case, though the Two Nation Theory was forwarded for a possible consociationalist solution to the intractable question of identity politics, the salient nitty gritty of the solution i.e. Pakistan based on re-arranging provinces in separate federations within or without one confederation.

Now... by rejecting the confederation, the Congress closed the door on cooperation and by arguing for the partition of provinces, the Congress in fact used the very two nation theory it had abused so much with a malafide intent to cause maximum damage to the new state. Then by insisting on making East Bengal a part of the Pakistan State instead of allowing undivided Bengal go its own way, the Congress infact accepted that it had been lying to the people all along and that all of its programme was based on hypocrisy.

So why was it wrong other than this you ask- hypocrisy is after all not something new to Congress?

1. By the logic that was applied by the Congress to divide Punjab and Bengal (instead of accepting Provinces as natural administrative constituent units) should then have been carried forward to all districts of British India. In other words all Muslim majority districts in modern day India- especially since most of them had voted for Muslim League- should have gone to Pakistan as well.

2. However since the Pakistan Demand was Muslim League`s demand which had proved itself the legitimate representative body of an over whelming majority of the Muslims of South Asia and their demand was completely based on the premise that provinces were constituent units, the vivisection of Punjab and Bengal went against the grain of common sense.

3. Dividing Punjab and Bengal was seen as highly dangerous by all commentators of the time and Muslim League had pleaded against it on merit. Mind you was not the partition of India and the creation of Pakistan that caused the wide scale bloodshed. It was this decision to arbitrarily strip West Pakistan of Eastern Punjab and the former East Pakistan Modern Day Bangladesh of Western Bengal in 1947 that had caused the violence.

This is precisely why the Indian government argued in 1947-48 that partition violence was merely ``disturbances`` despite Pakistan`s vociferous protests in the UN.

Re: # 415

Partition of Bengal and Punjab ... a response:

``If a group and in our case a minority (which formed natural majorities at certain extremities in our case) with a particular set of characteristics - language or religious beliefs or race or any combination thereof, having bent over backwards to appease another stronger group - in our case the majority- chooses to go its own way, those particular set of characteristics that defined them as a group in the first way need not be called a ``trump`` card. (At other places the weaker and the stronger group may not be minority or majority and it would still be legitimate) Instead one ought to look at those circumstances - all of which I have mentioned on several occasions- that led to such a situation. ``

---

Pl dont brush the main reason for AIML politics under the carpet. It`s religion and the charter was made with 14-points. That sums up the `maximum` possible list of demands of AIML. It`s `Muslim League` not a `Urdu League`. Pl remember some Hindus identified themselves with Urdu in pre-partition India, if u dont know it.

---

``In our particular case, though the Two Nation Theory was forwarded for a possible consociationalist solution to the intractable question of identity politics, the salient nitty gritty of the solution i.e. Pakistan based on re-arranging provinces in separate federations within or without one confederation.``

---

The intractability was made-up by AIML. They raised the goalpost to unattainable levels. It`s just like Advani asking for a temple `exactly` at the place where Babri Masjid stood. How ther can be any other solution?

Jinnah raised goal-posts from time to time.

---

``Now... by rejecting the confederation, the Congress closed the door on cooperation and by arguing for the partition of provinces, the Congress in fact used the very two nation theory it had abused so much with a malafide intent to cause maximum damage to the new state. Then by insisting on making East Bengal a part of the Pakistan State instead of allowing undivided Bengal go its own way, the Congress infact accepted that it had been lying to the people all along and that all of its programme was based on hypocrisy. ``

---

Even a moron-in-hurry wud not accept to the concept of Confederation envisaged by Cripps or Cabinet. There was an in-built clause of separation and AIML was hellbent on getting Pakistan since they made it in their March 23rd Lahore Resolution in 1940.

---

``1. By the logic that was applied by the Congress to divide Punjab and Bengal (instead of accepting Provinces as natural administrative constituent units) should then have been carried forward to all districts of British India. In other words all Muslim majority districts in modern day India- especially since most of them had voted for Muslim League- should have gone to Pakistan as well. ``

---

Unless u read the Terms of Reference given to the solicitor Sir Ceril Radcliffe``.

``2. However since the Pakistan Demand was Muslim League`s demand which had proved itself the legitimate representative body of an over whelming majority of the Muslims of South Asia.....``

---

Brain dead? All India Muslim League is the legitimate representative body of Muslims of South Asia????? Had any historian of that generation wrote like this? WTF do u include South Asia instead of India or British India in the argument? It surely shows how opaque ur blinkers are.

---

``...and their demand was completely based on the premise that provinces were constituent units, the vivisection of Punjab and Bengal went against the grain of common sense. ``

---

Read the same sentence with India replacing Punjab and Bengal

---

``3. Dividing Punjab and Bengal was seen as highly dangerous by all commentators of the time and Muslim League had pleaded against it on merit. Mind you was not the partition of India and the creation of Pakistan that caused the wide scale bloodshed. It was this decision to arbitrarily strip West Pakistan of Eastern Punjab and the former East Pakistan Modern Day Bangladesh of Western Bengal in 1947 that had caused the violence. ``

---

How many people did Punjab/Pakistani army kill in East Pakistan? Can u compare the partition killings with the count of East Pakistan??? It`s 1:3.

The funny guy Zafrullah Khan makes a statement from New York that only 10,000 were killed in west Punjab but more than 1,00,000 were killed in East Punjab as if he`s watching the crystal ball in New York!

U also mean to say that Govt of India arranged all the deaths? Take ur head out of ur reareend and see the daylight, buddy!

---

#409 ntsyed ``Can you accept the mother of all truths, as per The Quran you claim to believe in, that you were created for nothing but to worship Allah? ``

ntsyed - if this is what you have understood from the Quran, then perhaps you need to go back and read it more carefully.

Re: # 414 tahmed

Thank you for the advice. Meanwhile, perhaps you should research and reflect on the following:

51:56

``I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.``

:-)~~

#408 by ntsyed on December 27, 2006 11:16pm PT

mmmkay...kashmir banega pakiland...

any idea when?

Re: # 412 arjun2

wouldn`t the curious cat like know?

Soon son, soon.

LOL :-)~~

Dear Mantolives:

It shouldn`t surprise you that I am in basic agreement with what you say. There most certainly was a complexity of factors involved. My own personal opinion is that, more than anything else, it was a game of chess played by three or four key players in which people`s religious feelings and identities were mercelessly manipulated by all sides, starting with our very own Mahatma.

That said, I think that my generalisation is still valid. No two situations are identical and there were many differences between the Israeli and Pakistani movements; and yet these are the only two countries in modern history which have been created in the name of religious identities. I hope you wont dispute the fact that Pakistan was created in the name of all Muslims from Khyber Pass to Cape Camorin, and not just for those living in the area which eventually became Pakistan.

INHERITED FACTS:

British India became self-ruled as Queen forsook her role as Empress of India, of course with a price to Indians themsleves as it was evident in the politics of Muslim League leading to partition at knife-point regradless of colossal cost of human lives staring in the face. The face of India was splashed with blood of innocents. It was a different kinda Holi for Indians who otherwise use gulal to celebrate.

It didnt happento Jinnah - the ripe fruit falling in his lap - Kashmir ruler had his own independent plans. Pakistan wanted to GRAB the fruit by force. The gardener Hari Singh sought our help and we PUT a CONDITION of aceession, which the Raja acceded to.

EVENTS MOULDED BY US:

Pakistan screamed, cried fowl and put blinkers to her subjects that Kashmir was occupied by India. Travesty of truth! It`s Pakistan which tried to occupy it & was stopped in tracks, hence this stalemate as there`s no middleman like the British masters.

India kept the piece of Kashmir inherited to her intactthough Pakistan managed ethnic cleansing, whereas Pakistan bartered it with China with her own piece of Kashmir. Not a soul outside Kashmir can buy a property or settle there in Indian Kashmir - a solemn promise to keep the pristine landscape and culture of Kashmir which also means keeping the demographic profile intact.

Pakistan? Kashmir under control became Punjabised and Kashmir became K`shmeer. I really dont know why Bhutto was hanged but he was the guy who agreed to sidetrack UN resolutions on Kashmir and resolve the issue bilaterally with India.

Theree generations of Pakistanis were reared with blinkers on and many believe that India occupied Kashmir!! In Pakistan History is always used as atta i.e moulded as per whims and fancies of rulers.

Having seen the acts of Pakistan in Afghanistan and elsewhere (jihad in India and Indian Kashmir), it`d be unwise to go to Pak`s level of understanding of the truths i.e India doesnt exist, TNT, Muslims ruled India, Hindus are good as slaves etc., and barter Kashmir with them.

As I saw it till now India had no long-term strategy. Just watch! Cruel Indira Gandhi played with fire - as she did in Punjab, Sri Lanka - by appointing RSS acolytes as Governors and dismissed elected governments. Now with saner people in power, we have some calm...

Kashmir is an endless agony....I dont know why religion shud be THE point here. There are no curbs on religion in Kashmir nor elsewhere in India. Why cant these people be allowed to live in peace?

If in India 150 million Muslims can live -- so can 6 million Kashmiri Muslims -- plus no `Islami Hukoomat` in Indian Kashmir -- take it or leave it.

Re: # 404 nasah

``#404 by nasah on December 27, 2006 2:14pm PT
If in India 150 million Muslims can live -- so can 6 million Kashmiri Muslims -- plus no `Islami Hukoomat` in Indian Kashmir -- take it or leave it.``

And take it we will...with you in it.

Of course, we`ll make an exception for you to leave it if you promise to behave yourself

;-)~~

#395 dost mittar: just to complete what i was saying there, what is relevant is not the past but the future. and for the future, the relevant question is - what is best for the world that we will leave behind a few decades from now? and in that context, what is best is clearly a society based on some generally accepted principles - principles that have been as ably and concisely stated in the Preamble to the US Constitution as anywhere else: We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

We had a discussion on this on the Hoodbhoy board, btw. Such a forward looking approach that includes the ``Blessings of Liberty`` for the individual, as reconciled with the ``General Welfare`` makes far more sense, since there is no empty rhetoric of religion behind which unscruplous individuals disguise their self-serving goals.

Re: # 402 tahmed32

Hey tahmed,

What you say requires everyone to be absolutely honest and truthful.

Can you accept the mother of all truths, as per The Quran you claim to believe in, that you were created for nothing but to worship Allah?

Can your enlightened forward thinking not worry about your empty rhetorical secularist bhashans for a minute or so and muster an honest answer to that?

:-)~~

#396 by hamidm2 on December 27, 2006 7:57am PT

no jihadis no frisking...

if you pakis had the testicular fortitude to fight a straight war there would be no need for frisking and other counter-insurgency measures..

Funny how pakis condone the actions of the jihadis who can only attack because they hide among civilians and yet when the other side does the logical thing in such a situation, they are full of moral outrage..

Re: # 401 arjun2

funny....lol....

Bubba, many a times you`ve said you want Muslims to live in the present and future. Well, dear boy, THIS is the present mode of warfare - a few thousand jihadis keeping 700,000 well armed Hindian soldiers busy with covering each others behind...

Of course, the easier option for you is to reverse your condition: no frisking no jihadi. I`m all for that

:-)~~

Re: # 408

Yet at the same time the Indian economy has registered 7%+ growth since the time this ``endeavour``started. Its foreign exchange reserves went from < $1 billion to $175 billion plus. We kicked your collective asses down from Tiger Hill, Drass and Kargil. According to one of your ex prime ministers, we arranged a meeting between Allah and close to 3500 of your finest from the NLI. I am sure that was another glorious ``Victory`` along the lines of 1971.

This is the kind of ``victory`` I am willing to give to Pakis like you everyday of the week and twice on Sundays.

PS: I would keep the ``I am a direct decendant of Prophet Mohammed`` talk to myself for now. Lots pf predators in the sky. You don`t want the Pakistan Army taking you out a la Bajaur now do you? ;-)

Re: # 413 FoolAl

WOW! How come no one told me that? Look how embarrassed I am now.

BTW, you forgot to mention the exponential growth rate of AIDS, Prostitution, homelessness, disenfranchised lower castes, so on and so forth?

The Pakistani hypocrite PM and his cabal throws such numbers at the illiterate masses too. Keep the numbers in your pockets. The don`t mean much if the masses continue to slide deeper in destitution.

Kargil....that`s the difference b/w Hindu fundos and jihadis. That latter never gives up, even if his own stab him in the back. Rest assured, all that is going to be part of the Islamic state collectively.

``This is the kind of ``victory`` I am willing to give to Pakis like you everyday of the week and twice on Sundays.``

That`s right, that`s why one of your generals was quoted as saying `our men were dying like dogs`.....lol

``You don`t want the Pakistan Army taking you out a la Bajaur now do you?``

Death only frightens pig-tailed banya, not the jihadi.

:-)~~

Re: # 396

mohar mian,

you say: ``very few kashmiris have left kashmir``

but the report says: ``The conflicts have also led to displacement of Kashmiri Hindu or Pundits from Kashmir Valley. In addition to the displaced Hindus, a sizeable Muslim population has chosen to leave the Valley and the state to escape the consequences of the conflict. They are, however, not recognized by the State as displaced persons.``

........ if you don`t recognize them as displaced people does not mean that they are not displaced ..........

Re: # 400

OK - may be we should recognize them as internally displaced persons and provide relief in some ways... but that`s besides the point...

The fight in kashmir is a fight against islamists, above all else... if kashmir is lost, that means jihad has own... it`s a victory that you, of all people, will come regret the most - you as an american and as a secular paki - you will be their next target... Under no circumstances, islamists can be allowed win anything, anywhere...

So - we are actually doing you a favor by keeping kashmir bottled up, while you are shooting yourself in the foot by shedding crocodile tears about ``searching and frisking``...

+++

Good news is that - ethiopia [of all countries] has shown the way how to deal with islamists... poor, impoverished as it may be, ethiopians have kicked the islamist butts back to their bases and have restored a sense of balance there... where as the americans ran off like chicken after a few soldiers were killed - thus providing a much needed victory to islamists... rest, as they say, is history - bloody, violent history of rise of jihad from ashes of two burnt blackhawk choppers....

kashmir is another frontier on fight against evil of islamism... don`t, for a second, forget that... and thank hinuds for doing the good work ..... no matter how hard they tried, jihadis never won nothing, or controlled a single square inch of land in kashmir, in last 15 years of bloody jihad...

Thank hinuds again for doing the good work... and ethiopeans too... where the bigshot americans are turning tail and running away like losers, it`s people like us who are making a stand and fighting against jihadis... for us and for you...

Live, Learn, be grateful.... and stop being f****ing moron...

Re: # 403 mohar11

``...if kashmir is lost, that means jihad has own...``

You`re not paranoid for nothing. Please don`t take it the wrong way, I do appreciate your fear, which forced you use lowercase `if` in that statement. It demonstrates your agreement that now it`s not a matter of `if` but `when`.

:-)~~

effing typo:

Something wrong with ur psychology. U are a straight-faced pervert with blinkers piling one upon the other and u pile one banality upon other in ur ilogs simulteneosuly??

What a life!

#3dost mittar #384 urstruly and co. may argue that pakistan was formed on the basis of religion, just as ylh may point to the fact that Jinnah and co. were a secular lot and Maudoodi and co. opposed the creation of Pakistan. And both are right. and both are irrelevant. have to go now but will continue.

#389 by hamidm2 on December 27, 2006 7:29am PT

Re: # 391

arjun,

....... of course you don`t give a flip, but arn`t you ashamed of being an indian - just for a minute or two ......... c`mon, you can`t be that heartless - i like to think that there is a small kernel of decency in every human being

Re: # 392 by hamidm2

Oh don`t worry hamidm, arjun`s ilk has just enough heart as we`d like them to have:

# 387 arjun2

``Is this the part where I`m supposed to be all scared and quake in my boots at the inevitable prospect of a 100% ntsyed-certified islamic state of Pakiland taking over Indian Kashmir....?``

He may sound sarcastic, but the pinpoint accuracy of how he`s to behave is very telling.


arjun,

Yes! If you proved it to be part of your religion, then you will be allowed to smoke your life away.

:-)~~

Re: # 392

Awwww - hamidm mian - that was touching... coming from you, it was rich... boo hoo :)

Anyway - that report didn`t say who is doing the ``sexual violence``... how much by indians, how much by the freedom figthers... just for information...

Re: # 394

mohar mian,

the report did say:

``The 30-page report says that almost 99.2 percent of people reported having confronted crackdowns and search operations between 1989 and 2005. Some 85.7 percent reported being frisked by security forces.``

......... i think it is quite obvious who did the bulk of the sexual violence too, but i am sure there was some violence from the other side as well, specially against the non-muslim population ......... in any case, it is sad that you folks don`t see anything wrong with it ......

Re: # 396

Searching and frisking doesn`t indicate ``sexual violence``... that`s ``normal`` part of security operation... I am not saying the indians didn`t do it - just want to get a clear picture - which the report fails to provide, for whatever reasons...

we see there is a lot that has gone wrong in kashmir: jihad, enthnic cleansing, security crackdown, civil rights violations... it`s all connected... we don`t pick and choose one part of it...
++++

That said - americans have done a lot wrong in iraq too... I haven`t seen you saying anything about it... thousands dead, rapes, torture, abu ghraib, wanton destruction of infrastructure, properties, art, museums...

Kashmir is almost a picnic compared what you americans have done in iraq... 60,000 dead in kashmir over 15 years of insurgency/jihad.... 100,000 dead in iraq in just 3 years... very few kashmiris have left kashmir, 5 million iraqis have left iraq at last count... all said and done - thousand attacks donot happen each week in kashmir, kashmir has more tourists now than entire pakiland combined... we can go on and on...

So Be careful where you shed your crocodile tears - it may be comeback to bite you... :)

#388 by Mantolives on December 27, 2006 7:26am PT

yes yes...it was minorities who were asking for the nation of Pakiland, a land where they`d have an equal shot at making a mark..like president, COAS, chief justice(the real thing, not a temp sit-in)...even a billionaire perhaps...

Sexual violence highest in Kashmir amongst conflict ridden regions

By Iftikhar Gilani

NEW DELHI: Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF), also known as Doctors Without Borders, has in a recently published report found that the incidence of sexual violence in Jammu and Kashmir is highest amongst the conflict ridden regions in the world.

The Dutch Nobel Prize winning global network also says problems like mental health and psychological morbidity have increased during the past six years in Jammu and Kashmir. Its report says that a large section of population in the state feels insecure and almost 44 percent have reported mistreatment.

The organisation carried out a survey last year in Budgam and Kupwara districts. An alarming 11.6 percent of respondents said “they had experienced violation of their modesty” – which is far higher than in other conflict areas such as Sierra Leone (2%), Sri Lanka (2%), Chechnya (0%) and Ingushetia (0.1%). More than one in 10 respondents in Kashmir said they had experienced sexual violence during the last three months. As many as 68 respondents (13.3%) had actually witnessed a rape since 1989 and 26 respondents (5.1%) had witnessed rape more than five times.

Almost one-third of respondents said they were so unhappy they were thinking of committing suicide. “Such a high percentage of suicidal tendencies within a population holding strong religious beliefs that condemn the act of suicide is a worrying indicator of the level of despair and hopelessness,” says the report.

The 30-page report says that almost 99.2 percent of people reported having confronted crackdowns and search operations between 1989 and 2005. Some 85.7 percent reported being frisked by security forces.

Almost 39 percent reported damage to their property. In addition, 33.7 percent said they were forced to work for security forces, while 18.7 percent said they were forced to give shelter to combatants. In the same period, one in six respondents said they had been legally or illegally detained.

The MSF survey reported that almost everyone detained, whether legally or illegally, had been subjected to torture. Three-fourth of respondents were witness to arrests and half of them witnessed mistreatment. Amongst them, 9 percent reported mental problem, while 62 percent suffered from high levels of anxiety.

The survey also found a high incidence of physical complaints including headaches (23.5%), body pains such as joint and back complaints (20.5%), and abdominal complaints (16.9%).

PS: While it could be said that an overwhelming majority of Hindus and Sikhs opposed the Pakistan movement in Punjab and Bengal areas.... it cannot be said every Non-muslim or even every hindu and sikh opposed it...

The role of Christian organisations in support of the Muslim League is well known and Ijaz Gul is progeny of one of the christian workers of the Pakistan movement... similarly the Scheduled Caste Federation and other untouchable organisations under the leadership of Mandal etc supported the Muslim League... and even Khushwant Singh reminisced in his essay in the collection Lahore that he supported Muslim League`s Pakistan Movement never expecting it to be a cmplete partition.

Here too Pakistan`s creation differs from that of the State of Israel.

#381 by ntsyed on December 27, 2006 1:46am PT


Hence, the real question for the Banya right now is whether he would like only the predominantly Muslim states [under his illegal occupation] to be ruled by Muslims, or the entire Hindustan.


Is this the part where I`m supposed to be all scared and quake in my boots at the inevitable prospect of a 100% ntsyed-certified islamic state of Pakiland taking over Indian Kashmir....?

Is dope smoking going to be legal in the 100% islamic state of Pakiland?

Dear VRV,

I see the mirchi has had its effect on you. Again- it was not directed at you but it worked and I am glad.


Dear Dost mittar,

Things are not that simple I am afraid... we as human beings have several identities and we live in over lapping portions of several. Jinnah recognised that even when he was about to win his case... when he cautioned Mountbatten against dividing Punjab and Bengal as they were legitimate sub-national identities that transcended religious boundaries? Paradox? Not really ... except for those who use the occam`s razor where it ought not to be used. Identity is always imagined- I might as well claim that I am a Lahori by identity with an identity in common with all citizens of Lahore and I`d be right and my friend might claim that being a Muslim is his identity and he may equally be correct.... In reality we can be all of these and none of these... who cares? What is important is that the law protects everyone equally and without prejudice to their self styled imagined identities.

There is a very big difference between Israel and Pakistan... Pakistan is the sum of regional identities +2 (local Muslim solidarity and the Urdu language - though this +2 can also be equally divisive) .... where as Israel is based on the identity of the global Jewry with no regional roots. Pakistan in contrast is nothing if not local... Underlying the broad the two nation theory framework were several complex identities at work... do you for example think Sir Sikandar Hayat- an erstwhile Unionist and ally of Sir Chotu Ram- moved the Lahore Resolution- because he believed Hindus and Muslims constituted two different nations?

I think now enough documents have been declassified for us to know the truth... both about partition and the complex nature of forces - including the basic point of divergence aka the conflicting interests of Hindu and Muslim bourgeoisies- for us to continuously repeat the oft repeated national myths and dogmas on both sides... namely the one nation theory and the two nation theory as two mutually exclusive vipers going at each other.

I wrote a piece on Jinnah which was published yesterday on another website which is quite relevant to this discussion:

http://pakistaniat.com/2006/12/25/pakistan-jinnah-legislative-career/

Re: # 386

My Friend, U think it got my chin.....far from it. I am hapy that u concentrate on ur own welfare than demanding from India.

Something wrong with ur psychology. U are a straight-faced pervert with blinkers piling one upon the other and u pile one banality upon others on ur ilogs simulteneosuly??

What a life!

correction to 384:

``area not constituting Israel`` should read ``areas now constituting Israel``.

tahmed32#369:

I am glad that you see the point.

But let me add this. The religious basis of the movement does not in itself make it illegitimate. Non-Jews living in the area not constituting Israel opposed its creation and non-muslims of Bengal, Punjab and Sindh opposed the creation of Pakistan; still the movements were held to be quite legitimate. The point I am trying to make is that Ben Gurion created Israel in the name of Zionism and did not claim to create state based on Palestinian identity; similarly Jinnah created Pakistan in the name of Muslim identity and not in the name of Bengali, Punjabi or Sindhi identity.

So, it is quite legitimate for Urstruly and other Islamists to to support a movement whose popular slogan is ``Pakistan se rishta kya, la-ilaha il-allah``. However, it does pose a dilemma for secular Pakistanis who do not wish to be identified with a religion-based insurgency, so they continue to hide in the burqa of self-determination and UN resolutions.

#380 CoolAl

[what makes the word ``Paki`` derogatory?]

The answer is here.

I wonder about this....

Is calling a British citizen a ``Brit`` derogatory? Is calling an Australian ``Aussie`` derogatory? Is calling a Swedish citizen a ``Swede`` derogatory?

Therefore, what makes the word ``Paki`` derogatory?

J-man didn`t say Kashmir was Pakiland`s jugular vein..Indians still don`t give a paki`s rear...

Quaid never termed Kashmir jugular vein of Pakistan: Amanullah

By Mariana Baabar

ISLAMABAD: As historical facts pertaining to Kashmir are being put in their correct perspective by the government, a debate has started whether Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah had called Kashmir Pakistan’s jugular vein.

Amanullah Khan, Supreme Head of the JKLF has said that the Quaid-i-Azam had never termed Kashmir as jugular vein of Pakistan as contended by many Pakistanis and in this regard if proven wrong he was ready to accept any severe punishment.

so unless India hands over Kashmir, Pakiland doesn`t want trade..trade that will benefit Pakiland more...

reminds me of children who won`t take their medicine unless you give them candy...

Trade ties with India linked to politicial issues: Pakistan

OUR STAFF REPORTER
ISLAMABAD-Pakistan Tuesday reiterated that its economic relations with India were definitely linked with the political reality and could not be viewed in isolation, a spokesman for Ministry of Commerce said on Tuesday.
In a statement issued here, he said Pakistan has gradually liberalized trade with India and just recently 302 new items have been made importable from India. But he added, “the economic relations between the two countries are definitely linked with the political reality and cannot be viewed in isolation.”
India is consistently exerting pressure on Pakistan to grant Most-Favoured Nation (MFN) status on reciprocal basis as it had already awarded this status to Pakistan some 10 years ago. New Delhi wants from Islamabad the same facilities it provided under South Asia Free Trade Agreement (SAFTA) for the other SAARC member countries.
However, Pakistan is demanding repeatedly to move alike on all the fronts including the core issue of Kashmir. India has already raised the issue in the SAFTA ministerial meeting held few months ago and the issue might come again under discussion during the visit of Indian Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee to Islamabad next month.

Re: # 376 arjun2

``so unless India hands over Kashmir, Pakiland doesn`t want trade..trade that will benefit Pakiland more...``

Why would the Indians initiate something that benefits Pakistan more? The Banya can neither be that intelligent nor foresighted nor benevolent. Otherwise, he would have cured the ills afflicting its masses, mostly of lower castes and non Hindus, a long time ago.

He needs to understand that very soon Pakistan will be a proper Islamic state, with Shari`ah enforced in its entirety. Every move the hijackers [read current rulers] make now is a reminder invitation to the Khilafah preparing to take over. Not to mention the moves against the Muslims outside Pakistan are undeniable impetus to this movement.

Hence, the real question for the Banya right now is whether he would like only the predominantly Muslim states [under his illegal occupation] to be ruled by Muslims, or the entire Hindustan. Both options can be arranged in a jiffy.

If he wishes for the latter, then he must keep in mind that next time around his collusion with the outsiders will be crushed beyond imagination by the rules he has formulated thus far.

:-)~~

shishapa

Some things in life are grotesque, but yet you can`t look away... that is true here... :)...

So stick around... if nothing else, you will learn more about ``these people`` across the border... it would be an eye-opener...

#372 Yes, surprise. i am a paki too. have a nice life outside chowk.

shishapa: if you despise ``these people`` (i.e. us) so much, all you have to do is to stay away from chowk. excuse me, but your actions are the opposite of what you say.

Re: # 371

tahmed32ji,

Are you amongst these people too? OK, I will heed your warning and do just that.

dostmittar: That is a good point you make about this being a ``muslim only`` struggle, given that non-muslim kashmiris are not in favor. And being exclusionary of non-muslim kashmiris, it is not as deserving of sympathy as one would have.

I cant think of a good argument against it. I shall leave it for HP or Hamidm to come up with one. I shall have tea in the meantime. :-)

hamidm2:
Okay, I am back. I hope that your turkey turned out fine and without any pins in it, as happened to someone on this side of the border.

Back to where I left. You had said that moderate Kashmiris have turned to Islamists just as Palestinians have turned to hamas. This comparison is not quite valid in my opinion. Palestinians struggle was always an Arab struggle in which Christian Arabs were at the forefront: the most militant palestinian outfit was led by a Christian, George Habash; the first palestinian hijacker was Khaleda Aziz, a Christian; the most articulate palestinian was Anan Sharawi, another Christian. Contrast this with the so-called moderate kashmiri separatist outfit, the JKLF; the non-muslim kashmiris were thrown out of the valley during the JKLF insurgency before the Pak-based jihadis came into the picture. And while one can say that Hindu Kashmiris would be like Jews in Palestine and cannot be expected to support ``freedom struggle``, the fact is that even Christian, Sikh or Buddhists have provided zero support to these separatists.

If you can persuade these kashmiri separatists to be as broad-based as the PLO, they would have at least my support. Until that happens, I will never dignify their struggle as ``kashmiri`` movement and call it by its proper character, an ummah inspired Islamist movement. It is up to you whether you want to support a religion-based movement or choose to ignore its religious character and continue to call it ``supporting the kashmiris``.

In these holidays, I have spent quite a lot of time on Chowk and discovered a lot.

Don`t you guys get tired of calling ``Pakis`` and other names?

It seems your creative minds never stop churning out unending stream of theories centered around only one theme, ``Anti-xxxx``. Can there not be a ``positive - xxxxx``.

Where did you all learn it? In my student days in India we never had such ``anti`` exposure. Did school curriculam changed in India?

Re: # 366

Anil and BJ Kumar,

U both raised an issue which I think is a non-issue.

Pak-i-stan can be the monogram of the provinces it was made-up of but it`s also meant that it`s the country of Paki people i.e Pure people. If we stop calling them Pakis, it wud amount to derecognising them as Pure people.

They called themselves as Pakis and if sounds like an abusive word, the blame lies with them, not with us. In figures of speech words convey two different meanings. It depends on the equation between the speaker and listener. I for one mean Pure whenever I use the word `Paki/Paaki`.

Re: # 366

Keep your friends close - and your enemies, even closer :)....

You may have grown up in utopia where there was no need to be anti-anything... but reality is kind of different... in real life - you need to be aware of forces who are against your values and should be able to take actions against it... that means you have to be anti-xxxx...

Jihad is a real threat to any civilized society... you need to be aware of it... you can close your eyes like gandhi`s monkey which saw no evil - but that doesn`t mean evil is going away...

Re: # 374 mohar11

``Jihad is a real threat to any civilized society... you need to be aware of it... you can close your eyes like gandhi`s monkey which saw no evil - but that doesn`t mean evil is going away...``

``civilized society???``

Like the one being discussed on ``An Untouchable Apology``?

LOL...you`re seriously funny

Here`s a not so seriously-funny joke for you ... I hope you can see its relevance here:

A traveling salesman was looking for a room to spend the night in a small city but couldn`t find one. At one of the motels the clerk told him he was welcome to share a room with another guest, if he could bear the other guests loud snoring. The salesman agreed and took the bed.

The next morning he appeared in the lobby all rested and fresh, which surprised the clerk. The clerk asked the salesman how he managed to sleep in that room.

``All I did was to kiss the sleeping man on his cheek and say `Good night, honey``, the salesman replied. ``The man sat quietly in his bed with his eyes wide open for the rest of the night, while I slept like a baby.``

So keep your eye open, mohar..........LOL

BOO

:-)~~

Re: # 382 ntsyed

Good story... but don`t try that with bania... remember, bania always has a knife in his armpit... you will never know what`s going to happen when you are sleeping... :)

Re: # 366

Anilji,

May be terrorism flowered since you were gone? May be people are just
tired of people getting killed, bombs going off, trains and building exploding?
This is probably one way of of getting even by the people who do not pay back
in the same coins like suicide bombings and terrorist activities?
I do not know, just guessing.

shishapa

That`s going overoard .:) On the contrary, one can be quite certain of a very different scenario, IF we keep in mind that continuous improvement - economic, political, social - is absolutely necessary, but by no means sufficient to change the broader contours of people`s thinking, be they Muslims or Hindus or Kashmiris or Ghatis.

Re: # 365

Kaalchakraji,

That is true with normal people. There are certain people, for them, nothing is
sufficient or enough or good enough excpet one thing...
You can`t win with these people. We have experienced such people in the past,
dealing with them now and probably will have to deal in the future.

#361 by shishapa on December 26, 2006 8:55am PT

It`s very possible in Pakiworld™, the magical bizzaro world that pakis live in..

Life in Pakiworld™
If India gives up Indian Kashmir, it`s economy will boom.

Life in real world
India has been growing at around 8% for a long time now..9% in the last quarter..

Life in Pakiworld™
If India gives up Indian Kashmir, Pakiland will open it`s markets to India..something that will benefit India more than Pakiland

Live in the real world
India already has a trade surplus with Pakiland and any more trade can only benefit Pakiland


Life in Pakiworld™
Prophet tahmed(PBUHSRR) adding a smiley icon to his post makes his post funny..

Live in the real world
Indians don`t care for prophet tahmed(PBUHSRR)`s approval....

shishapa

There is definitely a belief amongst us that if we could simply `fix` politics, give enough `justice,` bring greater economic prosperity, offer sufficient `love,` all problems will go away. Gandhi and Nehru in this view, were clearly not fair enough (and Netherlands not liberal enough, Europe not rich enough, and so on and on endlessly).

We will one day become miracle men and women, and sure as sure can be, happiness will be everywhere. :)

Re: # 362

Kaalchakraji,

Only solution I see is all Hindus becoming Muslims, getting completely wiped out.

How is India conceding entire J&K to Pakistan and accepting all the
Hindu, Sikh, and Buddhits refugees (which is sure to happen, just like there is day and night happen) will amount to India coming out of denial and accepting reality of Pakistan?

#356 Mantolives

[The guard in the inner hall of Jinnah`s Mausoleum around Jinnah`s grave:]

Yes, but are you SURE you know what he does there when everyone goes home for the night and nobody is watching?!

Hint: No restrooms nearby!

while the goatbrain tells us about his delusions of kashmir falling into pakiland`s lap, the US forces Pakiland to grease up and bend over..

I see a few hellfires in the future of some pakis....

US for new operation in Waziristan

SHAIQ HUSSAIN
ISLAMABAD - The United States has demanded of Pakistan to launch fresh military operations in South and North Waziristan against the suspected al Qaeda and Taliban militants.
The Bush administration has provided satellite images and other intelligence evidence to Pakistan about alleged hideouts of foreign and local militants in South and North Waziristan, the diplomatic sources told TheNation on Sunday.
They said that Pakistan’s security officials were minutely examining those images and other evidence provided by the United States.
A source said that for the last three weeks, the Bush administration had increased its pressure over Islamabad for the new military operation in the tribal area across Pak-Afghan border while alleging that local and foreign militants were freely roaming there and illegal cross border movement was on.
He said that the uneasiness of Afghanistan’s based US and NATO officials with the peace deal between Islamabad and tribesmen in North Waziristan had led to the demand of new military operations in Waziristan.
He said that nothing could be said as of now about the possibility of major military offensive but NWFP Governor Ali Mohammad Jan Aurakzai had started consultations with the tribal leaders on vital issue.
An inter-tribal Jirga has already left for North Waziristan to take stock of latest situation and take steps for complete implementation of peace deal in the tribal area.
According to sources, NWFP Governor has also conveyed the government displeasure to tribal elders over the lack of implementation of some clauses in the peace deal.
The Jirga would brief the NWFP governor about the latest situation in Waziristan after its return from tribal belt and it would be in the light of that briefing that the future course of action would be decided.

Here is a mirchi for the Fat Nazi`s metaphorical rear orifice - though it has the ability to metaphorically act elsewhere as well...

The guard in the inner hall of Jinnah`s Mausoleum around Jinnah`s grave:






Jinnah`s dream coming true!

Sardar Harcharan Singh, a 20-year-old Sikh from Nankana Sahib in West Punjab, has become the first Sikh cadet officer of the Pakistan Army since 1947 to guard the Karachi mausoleum of the country’s founder, Mohammad Ali Jinnah.

On December 25, Jinnah’s the birth anniversary, Pakistan television showed a gun-totting Sardar Harcharan Singh, the first-ever Sikh inducted in the Pakistan Army last year, marching to military tunes in a change of guards ceremony at the Karachi mausoleum of Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah.

Singh left the National College of Arts in Lahore to fulfill his dream of serving the Pakistan Army. He is serving his third term of the 116 Long Course at the Kakul Academy.

In another first, a batch of eight smartly-dressed women cadets from the Pakistan Army became the first women honour guards to have taken part in the mounting ceremony at Jinnah’s mausoleum.

(From DNAIndia)

Re: # 356

Confused Qadiani,

I am as much cheerful as u are abt these images. I want ur country to be another Malaysia & be a proud neighbour of India but not an Islamic nuisance. However with people like u on horizon aiming for top jobs in Islamabad, I dont see that happening.

U needed 60 years to let these things happen. However by the time Mr. Singh became a commissioned officer, Indian minortities rose to the level of Presidencey and PMship.

(Indian Prezs: Dr. Zakir Hussain, Fakruddin Ali Ahmed, Zail Singh, Dr. Kalam).

CAN U/I EXPECT MR. SINGH TO BE THE CHIEF OF ARMY STAFF IN PAKISTAN OR A QADIANI LIKE U AS PRESIDENT OF UR REPUBLIC?

If the answer is yes, then go and have some champagne and let us know that.

#338 by kaalchakra on December 25, 2006 6:26pm PT


This is not an argument to to be totally ignored.


That`s like saying the possibility ot HP making a flying pig can`t be ignored because he`s bought a pig...

#332 by anil

“1947 mein Kashmiri dilwala dulhaniya ley gaya tha, sahib.”

Mostly, I stay away from responding to the childish comments. I will make an exception for you. The sad truth is that your understanding of the indo-pak issue so naively limited that it would be hard to discuss the issue with you seriously. However, I would give it a try.
Throughout the centuries, neighboring countries have rarely been friendly to each other. When the physical rivalry is not on the surface, the cultural and social issues still linger on in the background. In the modern world, most Europeans countries were adversaries at one point or another in the history. Closer home the US and Mexico have not always been on good neighborly relations. Even Canadians often disagree with the US. The threat of physical aggression in many countries has diminished considerably but the cultural rivalries still persist. Pakistan and India have a unique history and the points of conflict are so numerous in both countries that you would be totally naïve to wish better relations based on some sentimentalism. In politics and international relations, there are no good or bad feelings. It is all about what is good for the state.

Indians have a serious psychological problem with Pakistan. It sits on the ancient Indian cultural and historical sites and it is a symbol of what was wrong with the Indian nationalism before the partition. Bangladesh was also carved out of India but most Indians can live with that as it was a remote and culturally non attractive part of the pre-partition India. It is hard for Indians to deal with Pakistan in a rational manner simply because the sentimental links to the land they lost are way too much to handle.

Pakistanis don’t suffer with this dilemma. They don’t care for the historical bogey that ails every Indian and especially of Hindu persuasion. Without going too much in details as that will again open a Pandora’s Box of accusations, the best course to follow in improving India-Pak relations is not your sentimental sermons nor is it the jingoism displayed by both sides.

You have to follow a pragmatic path to improve relations recognizing that it is impossible in a short run to eliminate all points of differences between the two countries.

Pragmatism means that both countries should still follow what is in the best interest of their State and within that context, find some grounds that reduce the numbers of differences in a long run.

Kashmir is a dispute and any one refusing the existence of the dispute is nothing more than a chuti-ya to put it mildly. The Pakistan state will take all the actions and find every opportunity to resolve the dispute in its favor. So would the Indian state. India is not going to back down just because Pakistan says so. Neither would Pakistani back down just because India wish them to. So both countries will find a way to harass each other in that region and so far Pakistan is playing the game a whole lot better than Indians.

As I have said in my previous post #296 and several stupids still did not get it that Pakistan has built enough goodwill and political capital in Kashmir with Kashmiris that any peaceful relationship in Kashmir would work in Pakistan’s favor. India had that opportunity but they lost that a long time ago.

“Aur uski kashmiran beti ne 1971 woh kar diya jo dilwala nahi kar saka to seal the future.”

I am not going to indulge in any childish debate with you on this issue. But that really shows your actual mindset which is not different than Sadna or Arjun.

Only thing I would say to you is that countries don’t win all the wars and some times they are humiliated but the vibrant and healthy nations always bounce back. Take Japan or Germany of the second WW. And remember that after India was humiliated in 1962, they decided to never revisit the issue so much so that recently, the Chinese ambassador made claims on an Indian state in Delhi and Indians had no adequate answer for that. India is still dealing with Pakistan…..

#351 by ranjit
Taun paahnjo sindhi bah ahain, Maan taun khay kucj na chawandoos.

Re: # 352

HP,

........ excellent post - the best on this board so far ............... and i do agree with you that most indians are in denial about their pathological denial of pakistan - until they accept their denial, how can they accept reality ........... it is a convoluted issue

Re: # 359

Actually you pakis are in denial that indians are NOT in denial about pakistan... because that makes you feel important... it helps paki ``nationalism``, paki ideolgoies and it helps the establishment keep pakis in line: ``look, hinuds have still not accepted us``...

indians have repeatedly said pakiland is the best thing that happened .... on the ground nobody really cares about pakiland except for times of terror and violence....

If I were you - I will be less worried about imaginary ``denials`` and be worried about daisy cutters that americans are planning to set off up your a$$$...
:)

Re: # 352

HP:
“The sad truth is that your understanding of the indo-pak issue so naively limited that it would be hard to discuss the issue with you seriously.”

You may be quite simplistic in your judgment, but it is your judgment. However, I would certainly return the courtesy of responding. I would request you to keep choice adjectives out and let us limit discussions to issues not persons. Comparisons with persons are irrelevant, and unnecessary, each has distinct identity and personality. If you have read my previous postings then you would know that I have often quoted Gen. DeGaulle that “People have friends, Nation have interests”.

I chose the allegoric and lighter language to make my valid point, because even after reading your posting, I did not abuse anyone’s religious rituals, or other sensibilities.
There is nothing that you have said in the rest of the first paragraph reveals any deeper understanding of issues. No doubt you give examples that present parochial logic about nations and their interests. Even in each of these examples, relations among nations have moved, disputes have been relegated to back burners.

People can choose friends, but nations cannot choose neighbors. The nations in your examples have been able to use economic forces to come closer. That is my point in my allegoric expression, in case you missed it. The rivalries of these nations have not diminished, but economic, cultural and technological forces have brought them together to create wealth and prosperity for common good. Be it Mexico-U.S., U.S.-Canada, or European Nations, or the U.S. and Europe.

I cannot believe that this point can escape your attention. Even between Israel and Palestinians there is economic reality, the hostile environment only makes it exploitative. If hostilities can be removed there, the economic interdependence cannot remain exploitative, as jobs and economic prosperity will get created in Palestinian areas as well.

“Indians have a serious psychological problem with Pakistan……………………. Pakistanis don’t suffer with this dilemma…….”

This reflects either immaturity of thoughts or pent up anger as far I see. Without sounding an expert on Indian or Pakistani psychology, I can say that partition happened, wars were fought, Kashmir, even though partitioned, remains a problem. No economic forces were created; cultural forces were cut to give a direction toward the rot. Even worse there was systemic portrayal of each other in villains roles. Each others Heros have been portrayed as evil by each other, each others religious rituals have been put down.
And then you make the above statements, and expect to be believed by someone with a bias, like me, let alone by a neutral person. The fact that you quickly stoop to name calling, and cows, monkeys, choice adjectives, etc. etc. shows your psyche. I, unlike you, will not generalize it to all Pakistanis as I do have many Pakistani friends I greatly admire and enjoy their company.

Peoples have different histories, be they conquerors, or conquered; or master or slave. The differences in their interpretation of history shall always exist, by virtue of the fact they were either conquered or conquerors, or master or slave. There can be other reasons for different interpretations. Tolerating these differences is the first step, and the next could be respecting, and eventually erasing or reducing the importance of differences. American history books portray American Revolution, while English books describe it differently. Today, no American or English are trying to kill each other.

Monroe doctrine severely limited the role European powers can play a role in Americas, it was like calling the war against European powers. All is history. And Europe and America have created probably the most powerful economic, cultural and technological engine ever created by humans. No would want to destroy or bomb / nuke each other to Stone Age. The differences are resolved differently, adversarial spirit is transformed into competitive forces. Economic prosperity trumps all reasons.

Nations have interests, so does China and India. They are reviewing their relations while trying to understand strategic cost and strategic benefits of the border dispute. The trade between India and China has grown to about $3-billion and can grow to $40-billion. Again economic force is the determinant, HP sahib.

You may not like it. I have been to areas of disputed borders between France and Germany. Fierce battles were fought for this area in Alsace region. No one care about it any longer. Besides in EU these boundaries are becoming irrelevant. That is how I understand recent statements of Musharraff and Man Mohan Singh. I can understand your comment, only in the context of Pakistani anger / frustration with India. Chinese ambassador’s statement may be meant for a greater audience, and aimed for Pakistani consumption. From what I read in Indian press, it became business as usual, after Pranab Mukherji replied. To understand what I am saying, you may have to graduate beyond cows, monkeys, penis worshipping and piss drinking Indian. Also if you see in terms of Alsace region now and understand the dimension added by Indian Chinese trade of $3-billion to grow to $40-billion, you may see the logic of what I just wrote.

I do believe, and you may choose not to, that Musharraff and Man Mohan Singh have similar vision to reduce Kashmir problem by creating bigger and powerful economic, social and cultural forces. Technologies are not there in that region to make it a determining force.
Nothing happens overnight and would take time. It might take even longer time, without the support of people like yourself on the other side of the border. I have faith that such progress will happen in that region too, because Nations have interests, and people have friends, I might even add people have emotions. Interests in economic and cultural areas will be created. These collective forces are beyond the reach of people who can either choose to become friends or remain enemies.

I completely agree with you about war, humiliation and rebound of nations. Although if you thought that is what I was stating, then you have completely missed my point. that the action in 1971 has made it impossible for Pakistan to take Kashmir by force, even with the nuclear weapon. There are many more reasons also for this situation.

Regarding your point about peaceful Kashmir would favor Pakistan more. I cannot prejudge the future so precisely. Although, I feel that peace dividends will push South Asian economies and prosperity to a new orbit. Else the next dispute will be about water not land.

Therefore, I still say that “tail ki dhar dekhiye, aur dushmano mein dost dekhiye”, HP sahib. May be, you won’t, or don’t want to see it now. But, for me, this secular trend is irreversible.
Thank you.

Re: # 352

Hizra Paaki said: Kashmir is a dispute and any one refusing the existence of the dispute is nothing more than a chuti-ya to put it mildly.

+++

People who say that Kshmeer belongs to Pakistan is a chuti-ya, to put it mildly.

2. Unless Pakistan made it, India has no problem or dispute whatsoever. Kashmir is solely as issue created by Pakistan. The bullcrap of self-rule is another vacuous moral standing. Kashmir was a self-ruled princely state of India until Pakistan army invaded PoK. Pakistan wanted to grab it. Now they wanted to use this 20th century arguments like self-determination, human rights etc., The goal is the 18th century concept of Islamic rule. People like Hizra Paakis learn English and eat copious amounts of paalak (and good amount of swine`s dinner implied) and tell us from a podium....`blah blah blah....blah blah...blah blah blah...... `

Get Lost!

3. Again we need to reiterate: India has no dispute whatsoever on Kashmir unless Pakistan rakes it up. For them `solution` means `give us Kshmeer` stance. Since we dont give u anything......resort to mosquito tactics (since u cant face us fair and square)....i.e terrorism.

Re:mohar#350 and bjkumar#344

[..Only risk is - if pakis take advantage of free movement to step up jihad and violence... that`s something india has to guard against.....]

Guys, if you ever get the chance, please look up the Treaty of Hudaibiya. Basically the Treaty of Hudaibiya was signed by Mohammad when he was fighting with the superior Quraish tribe in Mecca who were against Mohammad. Since outright military conquest was not feasible, he negotiated terms which allowed him to infiltrate spies into Mecca and get a foothold for muslims among the Quraish. A couple of years later, he returned in full force and crushed the Meccans.

Musharraf had invoked the Treaty of Hudaibiya with the mullahs when he signed up with Bush in 2001 during the US war in Afghanistan. Look at the way he has double crossed Bush with his covert support of the Taliban to the point that Afghanistan is becoming a lost cause for the US, even as the US pours in billions of dollars aid for Pakistan.

What HP is saying is exactly what Musharraf is upto with his overtures on Kashmir. It is yet another Treaty of Hudaibiya. Musharraf or his successor, will do exactly the same with Kashmir. Once we have naive people like bjkumar opening up the fenced up LOC, we will have a flood of jihadis (overt or covert) who will just walk over the LOC. Of course, the jihadis would first just come in and lie low for a while to build a critical mass. India would have to at least partially demilitarize to create a spirit of ``goodwill``, coupled with some institutions for ``joint governance``.

At an opportune time, there will be a vicious revolt by the embedded jihadis, at a level that is unimaginable today. There would be severe international pressure on India not to go back on the treaty or send back troops to do a crackdown. As a result, India will sue for peace and either hold a plebiscite or essentially just hand over the valley. The only other thing India can do then is to threaten nuclear exchange, but the land would already be under full jihadi control. This is the reason people like Syed Salahuddin and the United Jehad Council members are quiet. They are waiting in Azad Kashmir, to put this plan into action. It is a massive trap for India and will be as fatal as the Treaty of Hudabiya was for the Quraish.

Hey guys,

Time to move to the Imran Khan board where the Masadi is peddling ``leggy blondes``. And, for a change, the price is unbelievably reasonable...

Happy Holidays all.........

DrDr: er....ahem....i counted (but didnt read) the last 19 posts before your post and they were all written by indians. the 20th was hamidm and then there were 5 more indians. And a similar pattern continues. your formula which seems to give equal weight to pakis and indians is way off, dont you think?. :-)

Beej

Between the two of us brothers, you were always the good one, ever more optimistic about humanity`s certain triumph over its challenges. :)

empirical chowk rule:
quality of a board decays as
exp (-(# of days*A/B)) w/ B>A; A=# pakis (injuns); B=# of injuns (pakis)

no wonder this bd has gone 2 hell in a handbasket

#338 by kaalchakra

I happen to be a lot more optimistic than you on this issue.

I believe that a lot of “people’s” support (to use the term loosely) to the Kashmiri insurgency is rooted in the fact that families have been forcibly split up on both sides of the border and there may be individuals on the Indian side who have little available in how to express their dissatisfaction. Making the border porous for THOSE individuals (but not for the jihadis pumped by Pakistan – by using better technology) will truly undermine the Pakistani designs of revving up the insurgency.

I am also convinced that, given the chance, the probabil