India, Pakistan and the Kashmir dispute

#158 hamidm2
India is not even squatting on the land - unlike china in tibet and pak in kashmir & gilgit, india has a deliberate policy of exclusing non-kashmiris from settling in kashmir. If anything, hindu and buddhist kashmiris have largely been driven out of the valley and now they are squatting in places like dilli.

#177 ``exclusing non-kashmiris`` should read ``excluding non-natives``

Re: # 177

Hamidm is just p!ssed that pakis have no testicular fortitude take the land they call ``in our blood``... so he is making up innuendos and hurling impotent threats...

India won kashmir in war, fair and square... india defeated the so-called ``lashkars`` aka pakis without uniforms and got the land... so india is NOT ``squatting`` on nothing... it`s our land, we won it by defeating advancing paki hordes of lashkars - end of story...

Now if a few thousand kashmiris have problems with that - then they have option to move to land that pakis occupied using the lashkars - the so called AJK... just face mecca and start walking...

From DM`s post below - it appears that after the earthquake, there is nothing left in AJK anyway... people there are more miserable than ever - people have no sustenance, no housing, no food, quake victim children are being trafficked with abandon... where as victims on indian side have been well-cared for...

So hamidm and other paki whiners should start doing something for the miserable kashmiris that they have, instead of lusting after the ones they don`t have, the ones who don`t need nothing from them...

#179 Mohar

[So hamidm and other paki whiners should start doing something for the miserable kashmiris that they have, instead of lusting after the ones they don`t have, the ones who don`t need nothing from them... ]

But the mian is INDEED doing something for those miserable folks! No, not donating to charities for the earthquake-ravaged Kashmiris! That kinda stuff is for the wimps - and Pakistan is the land of the super virile!

He puts his money where his mouth is - i.e., into the Right Honorable Congressman Eatallofus Towns` rear pocket - the Congressman who is just da man about HIS town!

Re: # 175

BJ:

“……. NEVER admitted the truth …. “

The Kashmir was partitioned the way Brits wanted. Please research and find out what I am writing here, British Chief of Staff of Pakistani army refused to take any further orders from M. A. Jinnah to march into the valley and Srinagar. British Chief of Staff of Indian army refused to order action until Pakistani army reached the ceasefire line. This shows how the Brits wanted to divide Kashmir. Just as India got Independence the way Brits wanted. It would be delusional to think Jinnah with his typewritter, and Gandhi thru his yatras and fasts alone secured Independence of India. Besides all this is irrelevant today.

Pakistan never accepted this partition of Kashmir for almost 60 years, but is now coming around to accepting it. India accepted Kashmir`s partition and defended it too. The good news is that Pakistan is coming around to accepting it, and future certainly looks brighter.

In the meantime, really, the search for the truth can be limited to religious nuts, lawyers, or when we are ready to go to Himalayas on vanprasth ashram. Till then the best is to deal with the maya (=perception) we live in.

“….. has NEVER made economic sense for the Pakistanis to be antagonistic toward India … “

Why not worry about what makes economic sense for India?

Today, it has a unique position in its 5,000 years of history, that includes 1,000 years of foreign rule. Let us not forget this. To strengthen its position, old thinking needs to be put aside, old rivalries need to recalculate for cost-benefit. New game plans need to be developed and executed. There are newer players, knowledge and resources that were not there before.

India and China are revaluating their old rivalries based new cost-benefit analysis. It is safe to factor for India in its strategic calculations that there will always be people in Pakistan, while enjoy Bollywood etc., will look for a straw of hope from Islamic nations and economies, at India`s expense. This does not mean that India should not recalculate india Pakistan rivalry.

Indian reliance on IPI can be no more than economic risks limited to investments and benefits from that pipeline. India cannot and I am sure will not allow the risks to be beyond it. So if India makes $3B investment, for example, in $9B project, only returns on it can be affected and not the rest of the economy. Alternate sources can be developed to ensure it, and cost of this alternate investment factored in the negotiating prices. Probably that is what is happening right now anyway. I certainly write an esaay pr more about this economic aspect.

Right now, if every 5 – 10 years India spends $600 per Indian-Kashmiri in Kashmir to have fireworks up someone’s ally. In additions numerous lives of others, including Indian-Biharis are also sacrificed. All this does not make sense in the present and future scenarios. Realistic solution may not be possible. Although I believe is no longer the case, Musharraff and Man Mohan are visionary enough to bring a closer. They know otherwise it will be another 50 years. In case, impossibility becomes the possibility, I have suggested the alternative.

…. “(3) Kashmiriyat – when it did exist –“

Yes, religious divides are here, and will remain here as long as we keep religion out of our personal mind space. This does not mean Kashmiriyat did not exist.

“It is not within India’s powers to “restore” Kashmiriyat. That decorative piece was not robust and is now broken into shards and pumping all the money into that blasted land …. “

India and Pakistan are pumping money and lives blasting that land, that I refuse to not call Indian-Kashmir. It is sad that it is “that blasted land for you.” Redirecting this investment, and building infrastructure to access to markets in rest of India, will bring “Kashmiriyat” back not only in “that blasted land”, but in you as well. This to me is India.

“It is rather difficult to sympathize with the “frustrations” of Indian Kashmiri youths when they have the option of moving to other parts of India whereas the truly frustrated youths of (say) Bihar have no such privilege to move to Kashmir!”

BJ, believe me no one is looking for sympathy, neither a Bihari youth nor a Kashmiri youth. Your difficulties notwithstanding. Youth, like any other Indian, including Indian-Kashmiri youth, want their fair share.

Implicit in such statements and “that blasted land” are your prejudices and concedes that Kashmir is really not India. This is sad, very sad for me to accept from a modern generation.

hamidm:

``dost, it might be hard to believe but pakistan was a pretty moderate place even in the late seventies - there were three liquor stors in sleepy pindi where you could buy fine murree brewery beer and horrible whiskey seven days a week without anyone asking questions .......... somewhere along the line, gabriel visited zia-ul-haq and islam was reborn in ghq and the mullah/military axis has existed ever since``

I have said this before that Pakistani liberals find Zia to be a convenient scapegoat and forget those who prepared the grounds which made it possible for Zia to deliver the final blow. Some time ago, someone posted the letter of resignation of one Joginder Mandal, from the Pakistan cabinet in early `50s. Mandal was a Hindu dalit who had thrown his lot with Jinnah despite being dubbed traitor by fellow Hindus but was forced to leave Pakistan and went to India. You would then find that the wrought had been pretty much set in during Liaqat Ali`s time itself and by him when the Objectives Resolution was developed. The problem is that that wrought did not affect the lives of nominal Muslims who could go on religously prohibited merrimaking to their heart`s content. They were not affected when Hindus and Sikhs were killed and ethnically cleansed from their homes, they were not affected when the Hindu-Sikh culture and identity was given takhlia from Pakistan; they were not affected when Muslim classical musicians were banned from practising their art (of course, the great artists of Hira Mandi patronised by the liberal Muslims were untouched!); they were not affected when Ahmadis were declared non-muslims. So, when Zia moved against them, there was nobody left to rise in protest on their behalf. Some parallels to a certain European country before the second world war come to mind.

PS: I do not mean to imply that Pakistan during the Zia rule was like Nazi Germany; the parallel I drew had only a restricted validity.

#176 by dost-mittar on December 22, 2006 3:41pm PT


I have seen many news items in Pakistan lambasting some draft report on Kashmir by a European Commisssion led by one Emma Nicholson. Strangely, there is very little mention of it in the Indian media.


Perhaps because Indians don`t give a pakis rear either way...Even if the report said something that pleased the pakis, it means squat...

Re: # 182

I think Bengalis should be mentioned before Ahmadis.

#181 by anil on December 22, 2006 6:19pm PT


Musharraff and Man Mohan are visionary enough to bring a closer.


Mushy is a visionary?

Aandhon me kaana raja.. the pakis are blind to reality and mushy has belatedly seen a little bit of light...

Re: # 186

Arjun:

``Aandhon me kaana raja.. ``

Don`t you think he would have the best vision among ``aandhon``? And hence the raja. Thus their raja by your definition has seen it.

Besides, associated with your name sake, is a story that only he was allowed to shoot the arrow, becuase he could only see the ``one eye``. This is a lot of wisdom to this ``one eye vision``.

#186 monkey man says ``, it means squat... `` just like a gora for the millionth time. ha! ha!

anil: we pakis are indeed blind to the genius of einstein arjun and other indian luminaries on chowk. ha! ha!

#181 by anil

Anil, I wish to be nice to you because you are probably a good man. You also have a soft corner for that piece of land whence you originate. Your attachment to the land whose people kicked your folks out worse than a used tissue paper is rather touching. But I do you no favor if I withhold the truth.

You are just as captive of your nostalgia as the old Pakistanis here are captive of their vision of that Ummah - that Islamic Ram-Rajya – which only exists in their minds!

Leave aside the history. A lot of geographic boundaries of this world today are historical accidents – including those of the various countries of the middle east and certainly the land of the free where you and I park our asses. So what is the big deal! People live within their boundaries and build themselves up – and they do it all over the world!

Not this Pakistani crowd. These folks nurse their “grievance” and get the maximum mileage that they can out of it to make the point that…

To make the point that….

That they are a “wronged” people! And somehow it is not THEIR fault that they are in the soup!

Bottom line: India did not want this nild pain in the rear which was present since 1947 but came full bloom in 1989. And the Pakistanis were fine with the status quo and things were getting better until the Kashmiris started agitating and the Pakistanis – in their “high” of acquiring nukes – started dreaming of making India surrender “in one hour”! (Isn’t the guy who made that claim still revered in Pakistan?!)

It is downright heart-breaking to see you entertain yourself with the vision of the great economic boom coming in and overcoming old mindsets and old thought processes. Need I remind you that the Saudi Sheikhs were just an amusing bunch of jokers prior to 1973 – and did not become the fountain of terrorism till those oil taps were turned on and these folks started becoming filthy rich. And looking for examples nearer home – look at the “fat cat” Pakistanis here – you think they are starving? The truth is – when morons get rich, they do not become any smarter – they keep doing moronic things because they are morons – only their moronic acts are more damaging. They do MORE damage, not less.

You can dangle all kinds of economic carrots before this beast of religious fanaticism – but you can NEVER make him drink from that well of peace.

Let’s take a couple of walks.

Prior to the second world war, there were many Jewish folks in Europe who thought they could make a “deal” with the Nazis and survive there – perhaps not as first class citizens, but with dignity intact. They found out otherwise. (You still wonder why I empathize with the Jewish folks?!). Tell me Anil, where are the folks now that stayed back in those lands?

After 1947, there were plenty of Hindu folks in Pakistan who thought they could live there and make it their home– if not as first class citizens, at least with dignity intact.. Tell me Anil, where are those folks now that stayed back in that land?

And once upon a time not too long ago, there was a valley called Kashmir where there lived a few hindus who – having lived there for ages – thought their “Kashmiriyat” was above being a casualty to religious bigotry fueled and orchestrated from across the border.

Tell me, O Anil, where are those folks now?

The bottom line my dear is – it does not matter what house of cards of “Kashmirit” you construct in your own mind, there is still a “wolf” out there who has every intention of huffing and puffing and bringing that house of cards down!

You count nickels and dimes my friend, and somehow forget the commodity that you ought to put premium on – your own life!

The wolf is not interested in your nickels and dimes – he wants your neck, so then he can drink your blood and eat your flesh and feel grrrreat and roar and proclaim his superiority over you and move on to the next target!

And therefore, what exactly were the Kashmiris agitating for, pray tell me? A right to self-govern? They already had it as a full-fledged state (and more) under the Indian Union – certainly more than they have in Pakistan.

Let me spell it out for you.

R-E-L-I-G-I-O-N!

It was the religion, sir! And guess what – that topic is not going away any time soon.

It is absolutely foolish to think that the bomb blasts in Mumbai and countless other crimes, including IC-814 (which almost every “educated” hypocrite of a Pakistani here always looks AWAY from (how is that for objectivity?)) which happened inside India would have simply not happened had the Indians merely given way to the Pakistanis.

India is a concept more than a geographic entity. Just like America is.

As an “Indian” I feel the same way about India as I feel as an “American” towards America. I have absolutely no sympathy for those individuals who live in a land, live off it, get rich there then go about maligning it and praising ruthless dictators in foreign lands.

Be it “Indian” Kashmiris who call Indian security forces “dogs” or be they desis in Amrikka who enjoy its hospitality but identify with the interests of a mythical Islamic “Dar Ul Islam”. Such individuals are traitors and heels.

There is not a single thing I said in #175 that you are able to counter. You talk in vain because you talk to yourself and you do not wish to face the reality which is rather unpleasant for you to face and rather uncomfortable for the Mantos to admit.

I empathize with your pain but it is my duty to inform you that people who start believing their own buck-wash to the exclusion of simple plain facts – like the Manto – make a sad sight. Now go pinch yourself, and wake up!

That is how I see it and that is how I call it.

Mr. Fat Nazi (follower of the racist casteist exclusivist hindu fascist bigot Gandhi) who claims to have the monopoly on the truth says:

``The Kashmiri war was imposed on India by the Pakistani khakis.``

During the first year after Independence, Sri Prikasa, Nehru`s handpicked high commissioner in Karachi, reported to Mountbatten that the best solution to all issues will be giving Kashmir to Pakistan.

Jawaharlal Nehru wrote:

``I was amazed that you hinted at Kashmir being handed over to Pakistan. If we did anything of the kind, our Government would not last many days and there would be no peace.... it would lead to war with Pakistan because of the public opinion here and warlike elements coming in control of our policy. We cannot and will not leave Kashmir to its fate... the Fact that Kashmir is of most vital significance to India... Here lies the rub.... we have to see this through to the end. Kashmir is going to be a drain on our resources, but it is going to be a greater drain on Pakistan. ``

Page 189- Shameful Flight by Stanley Wolpert.


I can see why you have a problem with Edolphus Towns by the way... as a true follower of the Hindu fascist Gandhi, you believe that all black people are subhuman don`t you?

PS:

Right thinking Muslims and the true Islamic principles don`t really leave any room for an equivalent concept to that of the fascist Gandhian concept of exclusivist theocratic Ram Rajya (DisclaimerIn my view Gandhiism and Bin-Ladenism are perverted forms of fascisms that use Hindu and Islamic symbols but have nothing in common with true Hinduism and true Islam)... but lets humor the fat nazi (aka follower of Racist Casteist Hindu Fascist exclusivist bigot Gandhi) and say that there was an ``Islamic Ram Rajya`` that some people are after...

So the Fat Nazi thinks only half naked frauds have the right to speak of Ram Rajya. Wah bhai.