India, Pakistan and the Kashmir dispute

``The official Indian view has been that Jammu and Kashmir ‘lawfully acceded’ to India when the Maharaja of Kashmir signed the Instrument of Accession to India in 1947``

to hell with that `Maharaja` -- The disgusting folly of this stupid Indian line for legitimacy is that it is the Hindu Maharaja who acceded (as if against the wishes of the majority Muslims ) and that made it `legal` -- it did not -- the inside truth is that it is the leader of the Muslim majority Abdullah who acceded -- and that made it legal -- the maharaja just signed the papers......case closed.

``It is possible for the Kashmir dispute to be resolved but for that there is a need for both sides to be more flexible than they are presently. Pakistan needs a civilian leadership, which realizes that covert war against both its neighbors is not a long-term policy and therefore seeks close bilateral relations. For this to happen, however, the military has to back off from involving itself in politics and return to its primary role as the defender of the country from external threats, not internal ones. ``

given all the positive statemments that may emerge from India and Pakistan about resolving the so called kashmir `dispute`, I do not think that this `dispute` will be resolved. the main reason being that this is the issue that keeps the pakistani military, intelligence and religious parties in business. this is also the issue that keeps the large indian military, nuclear weapons establishment and hindu religious parties in business. without the `k` issue, the existence of all these `protectors` of our countries will be in doubt. given the large kashmir lobby in both our countries, any resolution looks doubtful. none of the above parties will be willing to give up the vast resources of funds they can tap into by the very mentioning of the `k` word.

so resolution of kashmir currently looks to be a fantasy flight right now. 50 years from now when the new generation is incharge without the tnt hangover, this `dispute` may be resolved.

till then, we will be at each other`s throats.

rgds,

devkant.

[...India too has to understand that it cannot pretend that there is no dispute in Kashmir and has to take the plunge by offering both dialogue on the outstanding issues (like border disputes and Kashmir) and build close cultural, economic and social ties with Pakistan. ....]

Yawwnn!! Yet another mindless article on Kashmir ``dispute``. Pakis have already given up on Kashmir. Mushy has virtually made a U-turn that has barely registered in Pakistan - so much for the ``jugular vein`` theory. India needs to do nothing except carry on meaningless polite conversations from time to time.

Give it another 5 years. With 10% per year economic growth in India, the gap between India and Pakistan will become so wide that the Paki demand for Kashmir will become a joke. Why would any Kashmiri in his right mind want to leave a rich resurgent India for a poor declining Pakistan anyway?

Our real fear is that in a few years, Pakistan will be to India what Mexico is to the US - a source of illegal immigrants looking for a better economic future. That would be a real challenge.

Just as only Nixon could go to China, no civilian leadership in Pakistan has, or will have, the courage to solve the Kashmir issue. The crux of the matter is that if there has to be change in the mind-set of the army, it will be a result of ``in-house`` change and not because the army has suddenly decided to obey a civilian leadership. Furthermore, it is a stale stable that suggests that Pakistani army is determined to hold on to Kashmir, because in the recent past, the threat orientation of the Pakistani army is not focused on Kashmir but internal problems and issues.

As to the pronouncements from Islamabad about Kashmiri policy of Pakistan not changing despite Musharraf`s ``out of box ideas``, attention has to be paid to substance and not form when it comes to deciphering India-Pakistani political labyrinths. The indications that some thing might be afoot, came from the Indian prime minister himself, because Manmohan Singh would not have welcomed the suggestions of Musharraf if they had been merely pro forma proposals. Musharraf cannot only suggest alternations in Pakistan`s Kashmir policy, but he can also implement them and in this, he would have the institutional support of the army. The recent statements of Indian foreign minister, on the floor of the Indian parliament, that India would have to re-consider its idee fixe in regards to border disputes with China and Pakistan, also suggest a movement towards a rapprochement on the issue.

A possible endeavor towards a solution will have to start with the admission of the problem and the problem hindering the resolution is not Kashmir, but the intractible nature of domestic politics in India and Pakistan. It is still too early to cement a conclusion on these parleys, but if there is a realization in both India and Pakistan that the official political prisms need to be changed, then there is a reason to expect more gradual, but meaningful movement forward on this issue. Another caveat to be considered, is the appointment of India`s High Commissioner to Pakistan as the foreign secretary. It is safe to assume that having spent time in Islamabad, the new Indian foreign secretary would be knowledgeable about Musharraf`s private thoughts on the issue and will be able to bring these ideas to the attention of Indian policy makers. Another indication that serious progress is being contemplated on the issue, would be the appointment of Pakistan`s next High Commissioner to India.

In the case of India-Pakistan diplomacy, common sense would suggest to look towards newspaper headlines, but also to listen to the silence of the Holmesian dog that did not bark in the night. A confirmation of this can be glimpsed in the newspaper articles in Pakistan, because there are certain newspapers, which have arrogated upon themselves the mantle of Kashmir`s defenders and when the offical policy continues in a bureaucratic status, these papers do not devote much space to the issue, but when the policy meanders; they suddenly start to ring alarm bells and the bells are ringing in Pakistan presently. These papers have a good reason to be concerned, because the Indian government recently reconsituted a committee on Kashmir to study the issue/problem and one of the names suggested for it was Mani Shankar Aiyar.

This name, itself, would not mean much, but when nuanced with the fact that Aiyer is an old friend of Kasuri, the Pakistani foreign minister, and the two have have been friends since their days in Cambridge, the Track-Two diplomacy suddenly takes on added importance and meaning, because we now would have two people engaged in the process, who have the means; the familarity and the trust to by-pass the traditional bureaucratic obstacles and machinations.

There is a growing institutionalization of the peace process in India and Pakistan and this reality would suggest that it now needs to be geared into the next phase, which is to move beyond dialogue to discuss the solution. The process is still to fragile to embark upon an instant solution, but it is robust enough to predict that it is not so vunerable to sudden twists and pit-falls of Indian-Pakistani politics. This is the level of comfort; confidence that the peace process needed and now that it has achieved it, both sides will be willing, in private but not yet in public, to move away from their stated positions on the issue. The important consideration to remember is that it is a process and as with any other process, the yardstick of success is, and will not be, necessarily the attainment of certain politically popular aims, but the continued viability of the process itself.

Once this happens, the next phase would be to prepare the local political sentiments in both India and Pakistan of the offical fait accompli on the issue and as things stand, that is the general direction in which this process seems likely to progess. This might not be the begining of the end of the problem, but it is certainly the end of the begining of the problem. In a lighter vein, the joy of the journey sometimes does not reside in the haste to reach a particular destination, but in the manner how one reaches the end of the journey.

Ciao

Re: Ranjit # 3

A U-turn is not necessarily a bad idea.

A person can continue to break their heads against a brick wall in the hopes that the wall will disappear or they can turn around and search and find another way around the wall.

If Lemmings had ever learned of U-turns, there would be a lot more Lemmings in the world today! :)

Ciao

It again seems like a De Ja Vu - endless long debate on things already said, minced and digested.

Here is Musharraf - and also Manmohan - who both think that this issue can be wrapped up.

And what better way to do than to simply reach an AGREEMENT on the Staus Quo.

Loc remains there - but irrelevant. Both Kashmirs simply look after their affairs. And India-Pakistan mechanism on top just as a fig-leaf cover.

Instead of splitting hair - and going round and round - just sign the damn thing and let every one rest in peace.

No body is losing & no body is winning - Qazi & RSS can go to hell. Let the common man on both side heave a sigh of relief - travel easily - and trade easily.

nhk

ferozk:
in your highly enlightening interact#4, you forgot to say a prayer for the bright, young pakistani kids from rural and urban areas who died for a hoax (Masala-e-Kashmir). A hoax that was pulled by the war criminals that occupy islamabad, in their yet another game to trade in blood and build their power with ruthless calculation. After nearly 30 years and countlessly many innocent indian and pakistani deaths, this Mafia is going to do an ``out of the box`` solution of agreeing to the status quo of 1989. Just brilliant.

Perhaps, the most immediate question should be about the cruel absurdity of this thing that seems to have completely escaped you.

#4 by ferozk

Musharraf cannot only suggest alternations in Pakistan`s Kashmir policy, but he can also implement them and in this, he would have the institutional support of the army.

That`s exactly where the problem lies, Feroz Sahib. Just because the Pakistan Army agrees, the Kashmir dispute won`t go away. Tomorrow, some politician (most likely the Islamist parties) might whip up the same sentiment that has held Pakis in thrall for the last 60 years, dismissing the peace deal signed by Musharraf, what do we do then?

I don`t know the exact solution to this dispute, but one thing is certain: this solution will have to have across the board acceptance in Pakistan: starting from the Paki Army (and its agencies, ISI being prominent), the political parties, the Islamists, and most importantly, the Paki public.

[In a recent interview to an Indian television station General Musharraf stated that Pakistan would ‘give up its claim’ to Kashmir if India would accept ‘self-government’ in Kashmir.]

Yo, Kashmir WAS self-governing between Aug 15, 1947 and Oct 24, 1947.

That period of self-government was ended when Frontier tribesmen, led by Pak Army officers ``on leave of absence``, invaded Kashmir.

So Pakistanis have to accept that Indians are not going to fall for that line of ``self-governing`` Kashmir.

Pakistanis will have to suck their gut in, accept they can do diddly-squat about Kashmir and get on with life.... which actually means death by a thousand rockets from the US Air Force.

Recent attempts at alterning the definition of TNT, if seriously pursued, may make it a little easier for the layman to accept LOC as the solution.

Re:ferozek#5

[..A U-turn is not necessarily a bad idea....]

That is true, except for the fact that Pakistan has made U-turning an art form. As the Afghanistan experience shows, Pakistan first supported the Taliban, then dumped them in 2001 under US pressure and then again from 2005 onwards started supporting the Taliban upon perceiving US weakness and distraction due to the Iraq situation. As a result, the Taliban are ruling the Waziristan areas and have come back as a real threat to the Karzai regime.

The present flexibiliy towards India could be just a tactical move in the face of rigid Indian opposition to any compromise on the control of Kashmir. With the LOC fenced up and the overall US pressure, there is little else that Pakistan can do to influence the ground situation in Kashmir. Once the Indian government relaxes its grip, demilitarizes significantly, allows Pakistan a foot into Kashmir and opens up borders, Pakistan may fall back to the pattern of supporting jihadi activities, this time with an institutionalized foot in the door, sparse Indian military presence to counter the activities and with US pressure not to break down the Indo-Pak compromise. That would be a disaster for India as Kashmir would de facto slip away from India. Hopefully the mandarins in North Block are smart enough to understand this.

The problem is in the lack of institutions in Pakistan side besides the army. One man, the army general, makes all policies. If he is in a good mood he is conciliatory. If he has a fight with his wife, he wants to pick a fight. There is no insitutional basis for formulating policy and maintaining continuity. Until that happens, it is dangerous to negotiate on territorial issues.

Ranjit Re: # 3
``
Our real fear is that in a few years, Pakistan will be to India what Mexico is to the US - a source of illegal immigrants looking for a better economic future. That would be a real challenge``

---

Now that will be very painful to Pakis. They may almost demand unification for economical reasons. No prizes for guessing Indian response.

regards

#AUTHOR, #1 NASAH.
#1 And what is wrong with a hindu maharaja? ..you almost sound like a religious racist!!
Main question..Why cant muslims live peaceably under non-muslim regimes?
The muslim premise of ``inherent superiority`` ..``martial race`` ..smacks of ``love of the gun`` and ``gun culture`` and ``might is right`` and so on..
Is that the reason why instead of producing ``intellectual capital``..the muslim world has only produced ``terror capital``?

For the last 1000 years, has the muslim world shown any integeration?
Even in the recent past we have
1 - Pakistan
2 - Bangladesh
3 - Southern thailand..
all seccession no integeration anywhere!
And now we have ``more of the same`` in Europe!
Mark my words..it is only a matter of time!
Soon ``root causes for Euro-terrorism will be sought out / cooked up / blown out of proportion as the islamic ``unwashed`` in europe ask ``their rights`` using same causes as in kashmir!

The author! Pls understand giving into shallow religious hoodlums just because they ``killed enough people`` would be the silliest thing to preach and do!

These rascals need to die their own natural death by war fatigue!
Not an inch must be yielded!
Else tomorrow we will hear the all too familiar refrain..
``kashmir to diya ab junagadh dedo, baad mein hyderabad de do!! It will never end.

Foolish ``high horse riding`` Pacifists like you resulted in a 1000 year rule by barbarians in India..havent you had enough?

Or is your memory so short.
Jayen

The problem with negotiating any deal with General Musharraf is that any subsequent ruler may not agree to that settlement. He may simply freeze the constitution and abdicate the deal with India. Now Pakistani army ruler are capable of anything. Note the treatment Gem Musharraf gave to Nawaj Sharif. So first decide how to guarantee that future pakistani ruler follows the deal.

it is the missing ‘K’ in the word Pakistan


honestly pakis...it`s easier to rename the country to paistan than actually wrestle Indian Kashmir from India...

think about it...the word paki won`t mean anything...it`ll be pais instead of pakis..and then you`ll just be fish eating ghatis...

#4 by ferozk on December 18, 2006 1:26am PT

ferozbhai: Even a scotch gulping moderate like hamidm tells us the paki junta will never accept anything less than Kashmir banega Pakistan..

The bottom line is that India is looking to convert the LoC into the border(that`s what a change in the border means in the indian parliament) and for an end to the jihad and Pakistanis wants a change in the border in their favor..

hence the dispute..if there was a solution that would have been acceptable to both sides, i think there are enough people on both sides would have jumped at it...

Gen. Musharaf’s new proposals are similar to what I had argued in the linked article and subsequent interacts.

It is time to Dissolve this issue to everybody’s satisfaction. Can it be done?

In that article, I argued:
“The Kashmir issue really has no solution that can resolve this problem to everyone’s delight. There are so many emotions, national egos, and political survival issues attached with it that neither the Congress nor the army would ink something that could bring an instant political death to one or the both parties.

No matter how people sift through many solutions out there, the probability of a resolution to everyone’s satisfaction is zero. The best course in such a situation is to find a way to dissolve the problem through some mutually agreed steps that would not provide the knives wielding opponents any chance to strike.”

It seems that both India and Pakistan have agreed to dissolve the issue as I had proposed here and in discussions with friends in the Pakistan Foreign ministry. The new proposals from Mushy have come about after Khurshid Kasuri spent couple of days in India sequestered with the Indian foreign ministery officails at Hyderabad Deccan House in Delhi under the guise of a private trip.

The beauty of the proposal is that India does not have to say YES or NO to it. It just has to continue working the action items proposed.

The situation in the ME is so fluid now that US cannot afford any escalation between India and Pakistan. Thus, tremendous amount of pressure is being brought down on both countries to work together in the face of the emerging realities in the region.
The US now sees India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan as a future block that will help control the emerging chaos in the ME and central Asia.

A military alliance between Pakistan and India, in the next five to seven years, would be the second largest military collaboration just behind NATO eclipsing even China and Russia. China or Russia may maintain their nuke arsenal superiority but the Subcontinent armies’ sit in the most important area of the world. They would quite simply overwhelm any threat to the oil and gas lines to the world.

After the destruction of Iraq is complete, Iran’s control of the oil and shipping lines has to be broken. The US may not be able to do it militarily now but I expect a major diplomatic and political onslaught by the current and the future US admin against Iran. Both Pakistan and India have certainly signed on that already.

Coming back to the Pak-India relations: The Indian approach for better trade relations first has proven wrong and the best course is to develop cultural relations first followed by the business relations after the cultural relations have stabilized.

Both have already agreed to a relaxation in travel situation. The next step would be to open airwaves for movies and cable tv channels. There is a fear in Pakistan of Indian cultural dominance through Indian movies and cable channels. I think people fail to see that the Pakistani TV channels have a potentially bigger audience in India that will immediately snap up Pakistan cable channels, if made available to them legally. The movie situation would work out in Pakistan’s favor too as that will generate business opportunities in small cities and towns in Pakistan. Studies have time again shown that the TV is much more influential medium than the movies.

It seems like exciting changes are coming in the subcontinent and for that cycle to complete, the rightwing Khasis/Nazi wanna be on the Indian side and the Fundos on the Pakistan side will have to be politically defeated.

ferozk #4

`` Just as only Nixon could go to China, no civilian leadership in Pakistan has, or will have, the courage to solve the Kashmir issue. The crux of the matter is that if there has to be change in the mind-set of the army, it will be a result of ``in-house`` change and not because the army has suddenly decided to obey a civilian leadership. Furthermore, it is a stale stable that suggests that Pakistani army is determined to hold on to Kashmir, because in the recent past, the threat orientation of the Pakistani army is not focused on Kashmir but internal problems and issues. ``

Nixon was elected twice as President of USA. There is no doubt to his political legitimacy.
Where does Musharraf stand with respect to his support in the Pakistani army ?

`` one of the names suggested for it was Mani Shankar Aiyar. ``

Mr Aiyar is a political reject whose only claim to power/fame is his ties to the Nehru family.

#17 HP sayeen, happy festivus to you on this occasion of signing the nuke deal by bush. one of the only 2 bush legislations passed by US congress (the other being vietnam trade pact).

I tried to follow your arguement but gave up after this:

``The Indian approach for better trade relations first has proven wrong and the best course is to develop cultural relations first followed by the business relations after the cultural relations have stabilized. ``

wtf is ``cultural relationships``? is it TV and movies? that to me sounds like pure bidness, restricted to entertainment media. Indian tv-films ``culture`` is already well known to pakis and old paki TV serials were very popular in india. so as far as improving cultural relationships, there is hardly anything that will improve, what will improve is business.

cultural realtionship sounds as vague and nosensical as the usual ``warm brotherly relations`` sentence in paki foreign ministry statements when refering to arabic or other islamic country relations.

Jang,

You are not ``endowed`` enough to understand what better endowed write. So dont even try...well actually you are now a lipstick..stick to some pig`s lips....

It`s high time to solve Kashmir issue n let people on both sides enjoy some peace

#20 shame HP.. you have some hi-faluting criticism of bania approach of better business ties and put some fluff of ``better cultural ties``. all you got in explanation is sexual innuendo? this is pathetic. i was expecting at least some name-dropping ;-)

Jang,

I know sometime it takes you longer to understand. That was my way of politely telling you off. I like to discus issues with educated people and not lipsticks.

Re: # 21

Peace has nothing to do with kashmir - even if you ``solve`` kashmir, another issue will invented by pakis to keep them going...

Peace will there only when paki jihadi mindset changes to secular/pluralistic existence... and that will happen when hell freezes over... :)

yet another Paki afflicted with MDP... :)

Please excuse my threadjack.
For information for Chowk staff and other cut and patse artist or the google hogs...


Copyright Tool
Will Scan Web
For Violations
By KEVIN J. DELANEY
December 18, 2006; Page B1
To deal with the mounting copyright issues swirling around video and other content online, a start-up founded by some respected Silicon Valley executives is taking a novel approach: combing the entire Web for unauthorized uses.

Privately held Attributor Corp. of Redwood City, Calif., has begun testing a system to scan the billions of pages on the Web for clients` audio, video, images and text -- potentially making it easier for owners to request that Web sites take content down or provide payment for its use.

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB116640468524853020V
vad_NNZP5t2TzfSNxAxbwGAo_20071217.html?mod=rss_free

#13 by jay1 on December 18, 2006 7:24am PT

Gay ji or Jay ji it is inaneiable right of any group of people to be free .American anthem also sings of LAND of the FREE.

You must be joking to be able to ,with you limited vision ,predict what can or will happen when you do not have correct knowlege of why it happened......

Balkanisation of europe did not happen b/c of minority Bosnia but majority Christians who killed 2 millions in ww2 alone and divided europe in the past.Prediction is NOt somthing thePUNDITS are accurate about may be in selecting marriage dates which invariAble end in Bride burning .Yopur PREDICTIONS are all wacko and yes people have right to chose there govt.

Nothing will happen. In a decade, iftar parties in Pakistan will be replete with dancing macaca style bashes, eating food made in Ganeshpati Desi Ghee and drinking McDowell`s with Limca.

Nothing new or insightful in this piece.

yawn

instead of this crap on kashmir, why cant we have a real macaca song and dance on chowk?

Ref tolkinin #27

[.....Yopur PREDICTIONS are all wacko and yes people have right to chose there govt.]

Absoluely.

And it is the PEOPLE of Pakistan who have chosen Iskandar Mirza, Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan, Zia ul-Haq and most recently Pervez Musharraf.

When you Pakistanis have the right to choose your husband, then you can preach to others about te virtues of self-determination. Otherwise, you guys are shouting yourself hoarse for no reason whatsoever.

Ref Mullah32 #30

People are NOT interested in your family videos no matter how much pride you take in them.

Re:tahmed32#30

I can see a remarkable likeness to Behram in that pic.

What a day!! We get the nuke deal and we thrash South Africa in the first test match.

Three cheers for India!! Hip, hip, hooray.........

Pakistanio, kitni mirchi lagi? Come on guys, admit it. The mirchi is too much, right?

#34 by ranjit on December 18, 2006 5:15pm PT
The nuclear deal is Submission to GOD america for no nuclear use without surveillence permission approval and god knows what else Bharat has mortgaged only to ally fear of Pakistan......a country seven times smaller......talk about panic attack of bharat with wrong deal consequently

#31Harami

Women have now most rights than dead jessica lal

`A liar, Shayan won over by Manu`
Rahul Chhabra
[ 19 Dec, 2006 0118hrs ISTTIMES NEWS NETWORK ]


RSS Feeds| SMS NEWS to 8888 for latest updates


NEW DELHI: A liar, a witness won over by Manu Sharma and the floater of an imaginary two-weapon theory. This is how Delhi High Court summed up its thoughts about Bollywood actor and hostile witness Shayan Munshi in its 61-page order.

But despite all the criticism heaped on him by a division bench, comprising Justice R S Sodhi and Justice P K Bhasin, a part of his testimony confirming the motive behind the shooting in Tamarind Court cafe on April 29 1999 proved crucial for convicting Manu for murder.

The bench observed: ``He (Munshi) has admitted that Jessica Lall was shot at by someone on her refusing to oblige him with a drink.`` This, in a way, was the court`s reply to defence counsel Ram Jethmalani`s plea during the appeal proceedings that Jessica was shot because she challenged the manhood of the killer.

Thereafter, everything that he said in his testimony in the trial court drilled holes in the prosecution case against Manu and others.

In a scathing remark about Munshi being accompanied by Manu`s former counsel during the trial — he was escorted to court by Ashok Bansal — the bench said: ``This tell-tale circumstance leaves no doubt that the new story this witness has introduced during trial is an afterthought as also a total lie at the instance of the accused.``

Justice Sodhi and Justice Bhasin dumped the two-weapon theory, observing: ``The two-weapon theory appears to be a concoction of the defence and a manipulation of evidence, in particular that of Shayan Munshi who, for the first time in court, introduced such a story.``

``He has come out with this explanation for the first time in court and we have no manner of doubt from the facts and circumstances of this case that he was won over by accused Manu Sharma,`` said the bench.

Munshi had been declared hostile after the prosecution told the trial court that he had deviated from his earlier statement to the police that on the fateful night it was only one person who had fired both the shots.

While deposing in the trial court, he claimed one shot was fired by one person at the roof of the restaurant while the other shot was fired by another at Jessica Lall. In the court, he pointed towards Manu Sharma and said he was not the man who had fired the first shot.

Munshi also claimed in the trial court that he can neither speak or write in Hindi and he signed the statement to the police in good faith. The high court, however, dismissed this plea, saying the S-I couldn`t have concocted the statement: ``Whether he had dictated his version to the sub-inspector Sunil Kumar in English or not has no significance.`` It pointed out that that the statement was recorded in Bina Ramani`s presence.

``It is significant to note that the statement of this witness was recorded on April 30 1999 itself and thereafter he never raised any grievance at any time before any authority that the police had recorded incorrect version in his statement,`` the bench said.

In the court, special public prosecutor S K Saxena had claimed Munshi understood Hindi and that he had acted in Bollywood film Jhankar Beats and given interviews in Hindi.
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Better late than never

Pande, this is a fairly clean summary of the situation, except for the last sentence where you reveal your peacenik tendencies. Fine, it is your article!

I would have written it a BIT differently. I would have also put up the parts which you deliberately left out – perhaps because you are a no-good dumb chicken and a peeing-in-her-pants communist!

Ever since partition, the Pakistanis leaders – civilian as well as military rulers – have always believed that at some point they can use force and deceit to wrest away Kashmir – they just need to keep trying.

Only now, after sixty years – they are finally beginning to wake up to the simple fact that they are wrong!

And the fact that one Pakistani translates into approximately one Indian – not ten!

And the fact that Pakistan is a small country!

Did I say that Pakistan is a SMALL country?!

Like the tail of an elephant – trying to pretend and putting on the airs of the elephant. Everyone in the world looks at this peculiar ``wanna-be`` creature and laughs – except for the Pakistanis who have no clue.

Well, in this game of chess, the distribution of pieces is VERY one sided and the Pakistanis are coming on the losing end. And finally….

Finally, at long last, SOME of these people have suddenly had this great brain wave…

“Hey, we are not going to win this game!” Wow, what a discovery!

So they go, “tell you what, let’s call it a draw!”

With a straight face, no less!

All of that while keeping things exactly the way they have forever been – by training jihadis, by pumping them across the border, by continuing to suppress their own weak and minorities, by continuing to shelter mob figures, and by not admitting to a SINGLE one of the sordid deeds that their dirty crowd has been turning in day in and day out – faster than the busiest of Pakistani red-light areas!

Well, good luck talking to yourself!

And, it is utterly ridiculous for the Pakistanis here to claim moral leverage of “people’s will” especially since they have a ZERO track record of the same and in fact ALWAYS shown absolute contempt for their own civilian leaders.

Therefore, the progeny of Jinnah should feel absolutely free to go F.U.D. itself!

#2
Devkant is right its the army on both sides that have employment and great share of national wealth at our expense
like screwing our priority and keeping there low i.q.in play and in forefront .....

Re: # 18

It was not Nixon`s political legitimacy but his anti-communist credentials that allowed him to make the rapprochement with China in the 1970s.

As to Aiyer, you seemed to have missed the point again. Aiyer offers a non-diplomatic channel between Pakistani officaldom, especially Musharraf, and Indian policy makers. It is in this sense, where his usefulness lies and not in his political popularity within Indian politics.

Ciao

Re: HP # 17

I would concur with your opinions.

Ciao

Re: Arjun # 16

The emerging reality is that Kashmir will be finally solved according to the Shimla Agreement of 1972.

Shimla moved the process to the settlement of the issue one step closer to a final solution, when it superceded United Nation`s demarcated line of the cease-fire and converted it into an actual Line of Control (LoC). The LoC is, in actual reality, the defacto border between Indian and Pakistani Kashmir and it is only matter of formalizing it into a dejure international border. In that respect, the process is moving forward but it still needs to navigate the emotional minefields in India and Pakistan vis-a-vis Kashmir.

Ciao

#40

I agree too.

That #17 was written under the sway of bhaang!

Which somehow seem to havegotten through to you, too.

FINALLY!

Perhaps it is the unhealthy Lahore air.

Or simply a desire - the wishful thinking which overcomes simple inconvenience of reality.

Here is a dose of the real thing, sir! It is called the reality.

The Indian position is EXACTLY what it has forever been. And the Pakistanis have not done a SINGLE thing to show a change of heart! In other words - hot air!

So, don`t start making plans to buy real estate in New Delhi just yet!

Re: # 11

The jehadi spirit (for what ever that means) took a mortal blow when the MMA was proven to be a politically minded party. The situation in Pakistan is fluid and it is unsettled because the nation is in the process of changing; changing from the policies of the past. As to FATA, the point to remember is that FATA has always been unruly and if you have not visited the region, you can be easily forgiven for believing CNN. :)

If you are really and trully interested in understanding the region and its politics, I would suggest that you read Rahimullah Yusafzai; an expert on the region who writes for The News in Pakistan and is also the ``voice of BBC`` and has been reporting on the region for the past 30 years.

Ciao

Re: # 8

Once the army is convinced, you have convinced the politicans in Pakistan.

The Islamic minded parties are around 3-5 percent of Pakistani politics and granted, they might be a nusiance, but they will never control the foreign policy because that is the preserve of the military in Pakistani politics and has been since the 1950s.

Politicans in Pakistan are not interested in foreign policy; they are interested in powers of privelege and perks. As the saying goes, the army has them by the short and the curly and once they army decides, the hearts and the minds of the politicans will gladly follow. :)

Ciao

Dear Ferozk,

So far, I have respected you as a historian from what I have read from you. Perhaps it is misplaced admiration.

When you start according weak-kneed legitimacy to people who have expressed open support for the Pakistani state-sponsored jihadist insurgency within India, not to mention all kinds of wild-ass theories in various matters of geopolitics - it clearly gives such people no legitimacy - merely makes YOU look like a chump!

Perhaps you are one of the people who got be F.U.D.dled, too!

Those who toast wine with the absolute, absolute heels of the earth should not expect to be judged as anything better!

Simple as that!!

[...Once the army is convinced,...]

yes, when the pig has stopped loving the mud, you can put some lipstick on its lips and pass it off as a horse... :)

Why would paki army ever be ``convinced`` of peace?... war is what keeps them in pwoer and pelf...

Re: # 45

I am not supporting the insurgency against India or the people who support it, if that is what you assumed.

I was merely stating the reality of political power in Pakistan.

Ciao

Dear Ferozk,

The more you argue with filth, the more filth you`ll be covered in. But I admire the way you have handled the fat nazi.

Fat Nazi`s posts speak volumes for the need for dissemination of ``Lord of the Flies`` in hindi. Maybe it will be a sort of a mirror for an incredibly sick society.

Re:ferozk#43

[..The situation in Pakistan is fluid and it is unsettled because the nation is in the process of changing; changing from the policies of the past....]

That is an interesting point. Given that you live in Pakistan, I will take your word that Pakistan is in a state of flux.

The real question is the following - what is the Pakistani establishment`s long term vision of its relations with India, given a compromise on Kashmir? Assuming that a compromise in Kashmir satisfies only halfway the aspirations of the Pakistani establishment, will it truly bury the hatchet? Will it give up rivalry with India and open up trade, travel and transit rights to Central Asia? Will there be complete normalization? I am not sure the answers to these questions are a ``Yes`` any time soon.

The only way to move forward is to adopt the China-Taiwan model. Put aside the Kashmir dispute, give it the perfunctory lip service and focus on normalizing relations otherwise. If Pakistan is willing to fully normalize relations with India like any two sovereign countries, that will send the strongest possible signal to India that there is real change happening in Pakistan and as such, it is worthwhile to compromise on Kashmir.

Dear BJ,

yASSer goes `there` (u know that from Dr. Hoodbhoy board) unconsciously all the time. Now he remembers his family profession nautanki (whilst referring to Sadna). Prolly he`s a product of napaaki Heera Mandi of LaWhore. You know it`s easy money from that profession. He`s able to go to Rutgers with easily gotten money. However the genes - family and national - wont go away that easily.

Dear VRV,

Nautanki is a form of Indian street theatre and has no ``red light`` connotations as far as I know. Sadna is the one who popularised this term by using it for everyone she couldn`t respond civilly too. It turns out that the biggest nautanki in this cyber-town is hers.

But thank you for showing us your auqaat and dragging my family into it. I could venture similar guesses, and from the looks of it I`ll be on the dot. But I am just not going to stoop to your level- because thank god I don`t share your ``genes`` whether ``national`` or ``familial``.

Sometimes I wonder if the Kashmir issue was actually resolved, god forbid, where would 50% of the news on all those Indo-Pak news channels come from, and what would happen to those hordes of writers/reporters/journalists devoted to this very cause?
It might sound stupid, actually it dies, but this whole issue appears to me as some sort of a media conspiracy - a contorted form of the `divide and rule` strategy. lol!

PS: BJKumar is no stranger to such abuse that VRV has put up ofcourse. If an Indian (especially a woman) dares disagree with the mighty BJ... he very liberally describes that woman as a ``whore``.

So maybe this is a national psyche.... infact a severe psychological wound on the Indian male`s psyche, borne from some deep rooted sense of inadequacy as well delusional narcissistic megalomania. It is for this reason that the Indian male more readily drags his female family members as well as others as object of ridicule. Since a woman is the axis of ``social and moral`` values of the Indian male, it makes perfect sense to make her a goddess or make a whore or burn her at the stake. Sati-ism, as I like to call it, is Indian culture... for Pakistanis sadly it is also cultural lag.

Yasser,

Nautanki is a UP+Bihari art just like Mujra. Rest of India has nothing to do with it. Dont disown those two (nautanki and Mujra) coz u have mujras in Pakikstan as well.

2. Urdu is also an Indian language which u took as ur own.

How can u disown Nautanki, Mujra and Urdu as napaaki?

As for `levels`, u are not a holyman. For that to be clear read ur own posts.

U dont know India`s diversity. India is not UP and Bihar.

PS: HP is no stranger to such abuse. If an Indian (especially a woman) dares disagree with HP... he very liberally describes that woman as a ``whore``. He did once for Sadna.

Ref tolkinin #36

[Women have now most rights than dead jessica lal]

If you know the Jessica Lal story, she was shot dead and her killer, a relative of former President Shankar Dayal Sharma, got convicted of murder despite tampering with evidence and an earlier aquittal.

Yeah, Pak women have more rights. Any Hindu girl under 14 years of age in Pakiland has the ``right`` to freely convert to Islam and marry a Muslim man 35 years old whom she hasn`t seen before.

Pak Muslim women get their Canadian visas very easily: they don`t have to provide evidence of financial support while in Canada; they don`t have to give valid reasons for seeking admission to Canada. According to President Pervez Musharraf, all they have to do is get gang-raped... which is not too difficult in Pakistan despite the Koran`s admonition to men to keep their gazes lowered. Yeah, I know, the Koran didn`t say anything about keeping your penis lowered.

What is this paki/napaki buddy... I was not aware that Nautanki is a form of mujra. Thanks for telling us that Sadna`s abuses have a sexual/red light connotation at some level.

#56 by harimau on December 19, 2006 5:32am PT


Pak Muslim women get their Canadian visas very easily: they don`t have to provide evidence of financial support while in Canada;


In fact, the financial assistance is built into the visa....didn`t el-presidente say something about a million $ or so...

I wonder what chowk strategic thinkers think of this development. Connect this dot to the naval facilities the Chinese get at Gawadur and you get the picture: In addition to fighting terrorism (a concern for China too in its western sinkiang province), this also provides China with a short-cut to the middle east. And Pakistan gets strong support against domestic terrorists as well as revenues from use of Gwadar and from providing ``warm water access`` to China - something the Russians dreamed of for centuries and came close to accomplishing until they were pushed out of Afghanistan. The Great Game - 21st century style.

Meanwhile - Mushy plays his cards exactly right by rapprochement with India on Kashmir and close ties with the US while building up on a half-century of close ties with China.


ABBOTTABAD - December 18: Chinese soldiers participate in the concluding session of the Pakistan-China joint military exercises held here on Monday.—PPI