India, Pakistan and the Kashmir dispute

Re:mohar#63

[..As usual pakis are trying to be too clever by half... supporting taliban on one hand and then inviting chinese military for ``strong support against domestic terrorists``...]

Yaar mohar, Pakistan has been making a ``choutia`` of a lot of people, particularly the Americans and the Afghans for a long while. They have been playing double and triple games, siding with the Taliban, going against the Taliban, going partially with the Taliban, supporting the US, sabotaging the US and so forth.

The Americans are too straight-forward and trusting to understand this level of machiavilllean tactics while the Afghans do not even have the IQ to figure out how the Pakistanis are systematically ruining them.

It takes desis like us Indians who operate at a significantly higher level of cunningness and IQ levels to see through Pakistani tactics in geopolitics. Thats why they have not been able to make any progress in screwing us while they are making complete fools out of the americans and the afghans.

Re: # 73

It does not matter. You can only convince Pakistanis and some looser
Kashmiris with this line of argument. There are not takers for this view
in India. You have waited for 60 years, you are welcome to wait another
60 years and then another 60 years and then ...

Your best chance it to snatch it away from India by military victory.
There is simply no other way.

Re: # 73

What makes you think that Mushy or any other general cares about Kashmir or the Kashmiri populace ? He has no qualms turning a blind eye to the Taliban in NWFP/Baluchistan and allowing them to operate in Afghanistan. Anything preventing you from starting the armed jihad ?

[The official Pakistani view is that Kashmir is the ‘unfinished business of Partition’; it is the missing ‘K’ in the word Pakistan. The basis of Pakistan is the ‘two nation’ theory and the existence of a ‘Muslim majority’ region in India negates this theory.]
[The official Indian view has been that Jammu and Kashmir ‘lawfully acceded’ to India when the Maharaja of Kashmir signed the Instrument of Accession to India in 1947. Kashmir provides basis for India’s secular status, a Hindu majority country with a Muslim majority region]

``Two nation theory`` was also an agreed upon ``Partition principle`` for the division of sub-continent into India and Pakistan. India implicitly accepted this principle by applying the same to the division of the provinces of Bengal and Punjab. I wonder whether you can apply a principle without accepting it? And if India accepted this principle then why do they refrain from applying it to the case of Kashmir?

``India`s Secularism`` has nothing to do with ``Kashmir Dispute``. This is an example of reaching a decision before on some other grounds and then ``creating artificial reasons`` to justify the decision. India can still remain a secular state by resolving Kashmir dispute to the satisfaction of all concerned that is, Indians, Pakistanis and above all Kashmiris. Pakistan has shown flexibility a number of times but India is still maintaining it`s rigid stance that Kashmir is an integral part of India.

This is not an issue of secularism or ideology, it is simply a right of self-determination of Kashmiris. ``People who identify themselves as a nation are a nation`` and people who think themselves as different on whatever grounds, religious, cultural or linguistic are a different nation. That`s why Kashmiris are a different nation and India should accept this fact. In fact it did accept it in 1947 and now India`s claim on Kashmir is nothing but unjust and gross opportunism.

Line of Control as permanent borders and free unhindered travel of Kashmiris on either side of two Kashmir will be good humanaterian consideration as was demonstrated for the first time more than year ago.

Both Mushaaf and Manmohan Singh are the last chance of Indo pak `link`who knows what the gen x leaders are growing up with on both sides of the border .....

We have situation of two bulls locked in horn and no matedore to steer them away.........

#76:

shishapa, the discussion is about the entire Jammu and Kashmir state, so all of them are included.

#77 by mohar11 on December 19, 2006 10:29am PT


Mushy is floating ``ideas`` every other week


And most of the ideas amount to
1. The grapes are sour
2. Grapes aren`t good for you anyway.
3. I`m full and I don`t really want to eat the grapes

So here is a question, if Mohammad Ali Jinnah had not died in 1948 but
say lived long after Independence like Nehru did and if
MohammadDas KarimChand Gandhi was not assasinated, would
Kashmir problem ever occurred or would have been resolved and how?

the bottom line is Kashmir that was there in 1947 is not there now.

The only part which is intact is the one which is Indian. Pakistan part has been divided up. Even what they call azad kashmir is not Azad, they arevassals of the punjabis from Lahore. They are stinky mirpuris. Also Azad kashmir is impregnated with plains lands punjabis. If a pleblicite is to be held, pakistan cannot turn the clock back - its impossible, to go back.
As things stand, What is Pakistans remains pakistans and what is indian remains indian.

The Indian Gov should do the same to kashmir in India as what the pakis did to their part of kashmir. Repeal all laws and allow whole sale migration.

If all else fails, puts some nuke chagrded mines along the border - and given that it is a hilly fault (geographically) area we will have wholesale destruction slowly with earthquakes.

Just as it happened in Pakistan following the unholy nuke tests by Pervez Sahib and Mian Sharif.

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Re: # 89

Tahmadji,

You may be right. Something just take tiime. 60 years is nothing.
It took Indians 1000 or so years to understand that unity matters if they
have to thwart external aggression and wilt under them.
May be Kashmiris are slow learners like Indians are.

But about the regional block etc., will happen but I think religious thinking
has to take back seat for that. If religion is going to dictate how we
behave politically, economically, the political/regional boundaries will remain.

Anyway, what do I know? I am just a macaca, just macacaing away.

shishapa: Interesting that after 60 years you still have to talk about making Kashmir a part of India irrespective of what the Kashmiris wish. What do you think this says about India? Kashmir is like an abducted woman - who after 60 years still has developed no desire to become part of the ``Indian household``.

And time is in favor of Kashmiri independence anyway - since global trends being what they are, national boundries are eroding in favor of regional economic blocs. So - Kashmir naturally ties in which the pothwar area of Pakistan. Just as Lahore and east panjab are bound by geographical destiny to become closer together, as is the vast area stretching from Mumbai to Karachi to the Persian Gulf.

Damn!! I am getting good at strategic thinking. :-)

jang: In answer to your question, I think the one thing Pakistani leaders have been united on is the need for an effective defense. An example is on the nuclear project: Zia hanged Bhutto - but adopted Bhutto`s pet project as his own. and other pakistani leaders, whatever their differences, were united in this common goal of securing the national borders.

Aside from that - I think the rapidly changing external environment (technology, global economy) is creating its own opportunities for Pakistan. And so far mush and other decision-makers (or deciders, to use Bush`s contribution to the english language) in pakistan seem to be doing a good job of grabbing these opportunities (rapprochement with India, and strengthening of ties with China while maintaining close relations with the US being part of it).

For the future, I have always had full confidence in Pakistan even during the darkest days - and things have never looked better than nowadays i think.

Re:shishapa#91

[...Anyway, what do I know? I am just a macaca, just macacaing away....]

I am a proud macaca. In fact, I want Jinnah`s birthday December 25th to be designated as ``Macaca Day`` since he enabled us Macacas to get India and rule it without any competition.

Sanatani, are you there? Lets celebrate Macaca Day.....

Re: # 93 its called pipe dreams, if yASSer ``I hide behind skirts`` hamdani has his way, he would like to castrate all Idians.

Phir, pakistan ka kya matlab!

we are all macacas, shipshapa ji. :-) (and george macaca allen is our sacred goat).

this ``religious fundamentalism`` nonsense (which has nothing to do with religion anyway) is bound to take a back seat to the far bigger more powerful forces of unleashed by globalization, the rise of worldwide prosperity and so on.