Truth Behind US-India Nuclear Deal

Re: # 16
American production of nuclear fuel is not cheap and will not be purchased at higher rates. Good rates are charged by Australia, canada and south Africa and Russia. Mutual suspicious attitude of India and USA will exclude commercial trade, there may be token purchase, They may buy heavy water from usa or demand very cheap price, demand strapped reactor builders may sell reactors at cheap rate. That is difficult also average capacity of American reactor is 1000 MW while most Indian reactors are 100 to 200 MW. It is not clear what americans are getting in deal. Indians will definitely not allow themselves used as a cannon fodder against China as its not country of people of Martial Race and spirits and can not fight being lazy in Martial matters even for themselves, they are too lazy to fight for others but cunning talking people good for nothing. USA is making mistake if they feel they can make telephone and order as President Nixon said correctly about them as most cunning people and devious people while our people are good but simple people. Usa will regret in long terms and americans will be loosing jobs over long terms ( the kids from amerca donated used computers to poor indians and they repaid by ingratude and job losses due to indian coolies). Its nature of Indians to bite feeding hand and laugh and lecture.

Ref dost-mittar #13

[Bhaijaan, nuclearisation of India was started by Nehru and Homi Bhabha and the weaponisation by Indira Gandhi.]

So, when do you plan to start bhajan rounds in your neighborhood singing the praise of the Nehru-Gandhi clan?

I shall happily send you finger-cymbals for use in the bhajan.

bongdong#17

``Could you explain why you consider the opposition from the non-proliferation lobby as ``principled``?``

I thought that needed no explanation. The non-proliferation lobby includes people who are against all nuclear energy (Greens) because of the risk of radiation of leaks and the problems of disposal of nuclear waste; it includes a small minority (Chomsky types) who would like all countries, including the US, to reduce/eliminate nuclear weapons; and lastly those -the majority- who do not want to disturb the current apple-cart. I consider even theml to be ``principled`` as they are consistent and do not want to set a precedent which might haunt them in the future.

I am not familiar with the names you mentioned although they do ring a bell.

Ahmedmadani#15:

``( This is good time for buying natural gas producer stocks and same way coal As presently there is extreme over production of Natural gas world wide prices are down such fall in NG will not remain that way for long time. ``
Any recommendations?

harimou#21:
``So, when do you plan to start bhajan rounds in your neighborhood singing the praise of the Nehru-Gandhi clan?``

Not anytime soon:-).
[btw, bhaijaan is a term of endearment, not devotional singing]

``Indians will definitely not allow themselves used as a cannon fodder against China as its not country of people of Martial Race and spirits and can not fight being lazy in Martial matters even for themselves, they are too lazy to fight for others but cunning talking people good for nothing.

USA is making mistake if they feel they can make telephone and order as President Nixon said correctly about them as most cunning people and devious people while our people are good but simple people. Usa will regret in long terms and americans will be loosing jobs over long terms ( the kids from amerca donated used computers to poor indians and they repaid by ingratude and job losses due to indian coolies).

Its nature of Indians to bite feeding hand and laugh and lecture.``(Madani)

what a great compliment madani sahib you gave the Indians -- if you are sure about the ``nature of the Indians`` vs the Americans -- then the Indians are in no danger -- if the ``USA is making mistake`` with the Indians -- if the ``Indians will definitely not allow themselves used as a cannon fodder against China -- then even I may support the treaty.............:)

Re: # 22

``harimou#21:
``So, when do you plan to start bhajan rounds in your neighborhood singing the praise of the Nehru-Gandhi clan?``

Not anytime soon:-).
[btw, bhaijaan is a term of endearment, not devotional singing]``(dost-mitter)

harimau -- there -- DM ji gotcha......means my dear brother in `Hindustani``....:)

#22 by dost-mittar on December 14, 2006 6:29am PT


The non-proliferation lobby includes people who are against all nuclear energy (Greens)


Does this include the co-founder of greenpeace?

Going Nuclear
A Green Makes the Case

By Patrick Moore
Sunday, April 16, 2006; Page B01

In the early 1970s when I helped found Greenpeace, I believed that nuclear energy was synonymous with nuclear holocaust, as did most of my compatriots. That`s the conviction that inspired Greenpeace`s first voyage up the spectacular rocky northwest coast to protest the testing of U.S. hydrogen bombs in Alaska`s Aleutian Islands. Thirty years on, my views have changed, and the rest of the environmental movement needs to update its views, too, because nuclear energy may just be the energy source that can save our planet from another possible disaster: catastrophic climate change.


Patrick Moore, co-founder of Greenpeace, is chairman and chief scientist of Greenspirit Strategies Ltd. He and Christine Todd Whitman are co-chairs of a new industry-funded initiative, the Clean and Safe Energy Coalition, which supports increased use of nuclear energy.

#10 by asfand on December 13, 2006 4:38pm PT


You vastly overestimate the importance of India to Iranian oil sales and you are completely off the mark about why India is backing away from the pipeline(i.e. the terrorist state in the middle and, more importantly, the price just isn`t right..)..

in any case, this is just a stop gap until the FBTR comes online in a big way...

#22

d-m, the names I gave are some of the leading lights of the non-proliferation lobby, if you are just ``vaguely familiar`` with them i dont think there is anything more to discuss. As usual you are spouting off on the issue without having read anything of substance.

arjun:

``He and Christine Todd Whitman are co-chairs of a new industry-funded initiative``.

I wonder if he has been bought over by the ``enemy``.

to elaborate further, its as if d-m said: ``I think 20th century French philosophers have had the most unique insight into the human condition``

and on being asked about Sarte or Camus he replies ``yeah I am vaguely familiar with the names, who are they?``

#28 by dost-mittar on December 14, 2006 8:34am PT

So the fact that he`s` working with an industry group completely impeaches the points he makes about nuclear energy?

Do canuckistanis buy their energy from these evil power industries or do you run your own hot-air powered turbines?

bongdong#29:

Okay, now that you have proven my ignorance, could you also enlighten us as to how their opposition to the deal is not principled?

arjun2#30:

``So the fact that he`s` working with an industry group completely impeaches the points he makes about nuclear energy?``

My assumption is that the industry group they are working for is set up by the nuclear industry, in which case it is similar to an anti-smoking advocate changing his tune after being employed by the tobacco industry.

But, hey, why are you arguing with me as if I am against nuclear energy? I am not. As far canucks, we wont mind selling a Candu or two of our own.:)

d-m, the situation is very complex and the knee-jerk free pass you give to them sticks in my craw. here`s a brief exposition:

some are principled, like IMHO Perkovich (read his book, its the best on the Indian nuclear program), he proposd an alternative to the july 7 agreement which from my perspective is consistent with the rest of his views on India (he is at brookings and you can read his stuff there).

On the other hand people like Jeff Lewis and David Albright (see some of their stuff at armscontrolwonk.com) are pure scam artists. for example DA came up with this idea on how tenders floated by AEC/BARC led to the Khan network developing better specifications for some equipment (in his opinion ``fed information into the khan network``) I cannot imagine a more obvious attempt to sling mud in hope that some of it will stick. But these guys are very influential and prominent members of the NPA community. Similar is also the work of the ``Wisconsin Project`` of Gary Milhorin (sp?), read up about that.

What about their behaviour for the whole of the late `80`s-late90`s when everyone and his dog was aware of the functioning of the Khan network but large segments of the NPA establishment (in alignment with US policy) kept silent over it. How come even today China is scarecely mentioned with regard to the Khan network (again in line with US policy).

This unfortunately in my opinion proves that large segments of the NPA community are far from ``principled``, they very cearly have their agenda`s.

sorry, Perkovich is at Carnegie Endowment for International Peace now.

This is a well written and balanced article. It has a positive outlook and has not distorted perspectives or facts.
Both US and india, particularly India , have to learn to live with each other as they do represent the hopes of the Humanity`s ultimate welfare.
Both US and India have developed a working system which may allow diversity to flourish with minimum suffering on any individual group.
That does not mean that they have found the panacea for human existence but rather that both of them have to keep vigil to continue progressing in rational directions.

Re: # 26

India buys 7.5 percent of total oil exports of Iran.

The full article is on the following link.

http://www.fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/70294.pdf



``India’s External Affairs Ministry reports that India-Iran commercial relations are
dominated by Indian imports of Iranian crude oil, accounting for roughly 85% of Indian
imports from Iran each year. The value of all India-Iran trade in the fiscal year ending
March 2005 increased by 36% over the previous year, reaching more than $1.6 billion (by
comparison, U.S.-India trade was valued at about $27 billion in 2005).13 Iran possesses
the world’s second-largest natural gas reserves, while India is among the world’s leading
gas importers. With a rapidly growing economy, India is building energy ties to Iran,
some of which could conflict with U.S. policy and the Iran-Libya Sanctions Act (ILSA).
ILSA requires certain sanctions on investments over $20 million in one year in Iran’s
energy sector. It expires on August 5, 2006, but there is pending legislation to extend it
(S. 2657; H.R. 5877), as well as to modify it (S.333 and H.R. 282). Under a reportedly
finalized 25-year, $22 billion deal, the state-owned Gas Authority of India Ltd. (GAIL)
is to buy 5 million tons per year of Iranian liquified natural gas (LNG). To implement the
arrangement, GAIL is to build an LNG plant in Iran, which Iran does not now have.
Some versions of the deal include development by GAIL of Iran’s South Pars gas field,
which would clearly constitute an investment in Iran’s energy sector. India currently buys
about 100,000-150,000 barrels per day of Iranian oil, about 7.5% of Iran’s oil exports.
It is also widely reported that Indian refineries supply a large part of the refined gasoline
that Iran imports. Gasoline is heavily subsidized and sells for about 40 cents per gallon,
and Iranian refining capacity is insufficient to meet demand. Such direct purchases and
sales of petroleum product are not generally considered violations of ILSA.``

#36

asfand, thanks, that was really interesting.

Iran-Libya Sanctions Act (ILSA).
ILSA requires certain sanctions on investments over $20 million in one year in Iran’s
energy sector.

Agip (Italy), Statoil (Norwegian) and various Korean and Japanese companies are big investors in Iran energy sector so there is some standard loophole they use around the ILSA. but seems like if Uncle Sam wishes it has big club to hit India over the head with, if required.

Urstruly #1

`` I see India-US nuclear deal as one of the blessing in disguise for Pakistan. Over the years the Us aid has nothing but a crippling effect on Pakistan and it has only resulted in the haramkhori and corruption of the ruling class. Pakistan has always made great strides everytime opportunity presented itself to keep a distance from US sphere of influence. As US tilts itself closer to India, Pak will get closer to the Chinese and Pan Islamic influence - which is good for us. ``

India-US nuclear deal is no different from China`s deals with the West/USA for nuclear technology.

If the India-US nuclear deal is blessing in disguise for Pakistan there is no reason for Pakistan to demand it. China would not be criticizing the deal.

It beats me how the goldless pork eating Chinese are okay for Pakistan.

asfand #10

`` US gains from this Nuke deal as follows:

1) Minimalize the Iranian influence on India by reducing India dependency on Iranian oil
2) Make Iran cash strapped as Indians will be able to produce electricity by Nuclear means thus will be buying less oil from Iran.
3) More influence in India due to dependency on US supplied fuel.
4) Weaker Iran directly translates more security to Israel.

Iran-Pak-India oil pipeline is already history as Indians pulled back from the project. ``

What makes you think India or Pakistan can afford the prices Iran charges for natural gas ?

`` Why is US doing all this:
So when the time come for marching orders against China, India will not be able to resist. ``

The India-China-USA triangle will be interesting exercise in geo-poliitics for decades to come. India and USA are hedging themselves against a potentially aggressive China. If China acts in a peaceful manner the alliance will be an exercise on paper.

China is the largest trading partner of USA and second trading largest partner of India.

Ref dost-mittar #22

{harimou#21:
``So, when do you plan to start bhajan rounds in your neighborhood singing the praise of the Nehru-Gandhi clan?``

Not anytime soon:-).
[btw, bhaijaan is a term of endearment, not devotional singing] }

Bhai-jaan, I understand that term quite well. However, Dec 14 is the beginning of the month of Margazhi and here in Tamil Nadu we have people going around singing bhajans praising Ram, Krishna, Kartik, Ganesh, Shiva, etc., early in the morning. The finger-cymbals are used to keep the `taal` (beat). Having woken up several mornings in the past to bhajan singing in the month of Margazhi, I couldn`t resist connecting your singing the praises of Jawaharlal and Indira to the morning bhajans I am so familiar with.

Goat-Brain-in-Curry Sauce aka Asli-Masanamuthu aka Soysauce is already making the morning rounds with bhajans about Doctor Artist Leader Chief Minister the Fund of Compassion.

Even Yasser Latif Hamdani and his wife Ayesha Sarwari had gotten into the act (but about a month earlier; this must be because they use the Islamic lunar calendar) with a twist: they are denouncing the casteist racist pig Gandhi along with singing the praises of Jinnah. Sort of like denouncing Satan while praising Allah, I suppose.

Re: # 23
Dear Mr Nasah….. Your name is Hasan and you write alphabets in Arabic style, when I read that way it becomes any way its enigma ..

Now kindly read how Indians are in words of president Nixan. Now he was very devious himself. And when he qualifies some body means its real hard case of Saitan.
Nixon write in his memories

“Pakistanis are straightforward and sometimes extremely stupid. Indians are more devious, sometimes so smart that we fall for their line”,

He had also pointed out that the Indians manage to fool the American ambassadors to New Delhi and referred specially to their envoy at the time, Mr Keating. He revealed that the gentleman had wanted the US to “help India push the Pakistanis out (of East Pakistan)” and that, “Keating, like every ambassador who goes over there, goes over there and gets sucked in.”
Now he said he was not crook but when he says such things every sane person has to accept he is telling truth..

Look general president is straight forward thin as arrow and straight. He said good things about MMSING. But Mr. Singh showed gratitude Indian way and poisoned mind of Mr. Bush and backstabbed President. By doing wrong propaganda when he visited usa. He made false allegations against Pakistan like reckless nuclear proliferation making country, supporter of talibans and with thousands and thousands of madressahs , making factory production of Jehadis based on hatred of other religions etc. All pack of lies. When it comes to get benefits they are not shy to lie and magnify. All he did just so Pakistan does not get same Nuclear deal and brainwashed your American president and cheated him. He talks soft and slowly but stabs nicely. Fortunately we are getting better deal from China.

I am against this deal as its detrimental to Pakistan, china and America and for Indian people. Indian people will be subjected to radiation desease in big numers as they built shoddy buildings and recently they were building roof of atomic plant roof came down it was so bad. They are cheat and bad building will lead to leaking nuclear light ande killing in millions due to nuclear disease.
Have good day.

Re: # 41
I am against nuclear energy the way it is produced which against humanity and produce stuff that can kill people in huge numbers over long term by slowly poisoning. Even against hydroelectric also as when take out energy of water and then people drink water creates not so good water as its like juice without vitamins and minerals it can no be healthy. It is good possible that light when takes power from turbine driven, produced by nuclear energy produced steam can start slowly emitting radiation like nuclear poison through light and kill over next 50 to 60 years with nuclear diseases. Only coal or gas produced power is contamination free as it releases poison, radio active material in air and air dilutes every thing. If I am super rich I will use only big candles which does not produce pollution which can kill you slowly.

#36 by asfand on December 14, 2006 2:34pm PT

Not enough to influence Iranian policy...there`s always china to sell the oil to...

The article is all over the place. The conclusions are disjointed from the main thesis that the author was developing - that there was certain amount of unified opposition to the deal amongst indian political parties.
Even under the best of circumstances, india will not be able to replace iranian oil any time soon. It takes time to build new power plants and electric power does not necessarily supplant petroleum.
As to the non-proliferation lobby, they are usually not anti-nuclear - they just don`t like to see any nation other than the recognized five plus israel get legitimate nuclear industry - some of them may even have a warm attitude towards india but they see this deal as a slippery slope where tomorrow, for example, china may make an exception in the case of pakistan or north korea.

Re: # 22
DM ji you asked for suggestion. Now there is saying in Arabic a Shepard should not try to shepherd while sitting on camel. But if somebody asks it ispolite to say no as being ignorant. So will try my best. You have commie govt in Canada as they say here that becomes hard as then you need only Canadian companies.
I have little experience in such matter. My daughters husband thinks he is smart and he lost huge pile of money and my daughter complained to me about that. She told him to consult me but he had little “attitude” problem, she was irate. I asked to forgive him and ask me . So I methodically studied and found markets are very efficient and not easy to find easy pickings. He was not smart in such matters but I can not tell my daughter. He believed in High Tech. Now I told them you do not make money in high tech but in low tech or no tech. I found several sectors which can give better returns.
Now related to low or no tech is oil and natural gas and coal. And presently extreme good situation exists in canadin things. It is so good asked my daughter to buy Canadian stocks on NYSE and she is getting better results every month. Presently gas prices have bottomed in short term ( my short term means atleast 4.5 years, 4.5 has meaning but will not explain now, people who understand probability, some thing related to markov chains if explained can understand, if interested study stock charts in terms of 4.5 years cycle, gas and coal) one can do extremely good. If capital gains reach 4.5 years worth dividend one should sell and pay taxes happily. The selection of equities specially selected are such that dividends are enormous.
First drilling company of Canada giant. Precision drilling , presently they are closing many drilling sites and so price is lower range in local sense
Second is metallurgical coal majority used in production of steel , steel may be overproduced and prices are hard to raise so met coal is less demad stock is down
All others are gas and oil ( small part) producers of Canada.
Most pay monthly dividends so its good cash flow.
Names are from americal EXCHANGES. Symbol and div yields.
My feeling is wthin 4 to 5 years prices of gas and oil will jump to recent highs and capitals gains will be enormous combined with stream of dividends.
All Canadians for Dmji appraisal
Symbol % yield
PDS (13.2) Drilling
FDG (12.8) Met coal mining
AAV (18.3)
CNE(14.0)
PGH (15.7)
PWE (11.3)
PVX (11.3)
ENT (17.2)
HTE (17)
MWE (6.6)
ERF (9.5)
I have avoided name which are good but user needs to study niches of those.
Other groups very good are gas and oil pipe lines ( They are almost no risk but steady and boring dividends but may be good for people over 50s who have crossed hump and are happy with steady boring returns), Other group is good but need understanding much more is shipping group huge dividends but buyer should know how to look at Baltic exchange and spot market rates which are changing. I will prefer most to keep away as they are too dynamic. These companies are registerd at many “banana republics” but they pay huge dividends. Before going there one should study pattern of spot rates ( seasonal nature), Dubble hull construction, soon phasing of Single hulls, difference between dry and liquid carriers, Vlccs, , If some has time should study this sector can be profitable. May be should write article. But this being more social economical place no place.
If one can control losses the game is won you have money at end.
NOW do not forget OIL and GAS dev. Corp of our country which is listed on LSE. ( I never understand why they go to European exchanges rather than American exchanges, can somebody tell me, my feeling is that too many and strict disclosers must be problems
) I hope this will give some raw food for thing for finding vehicles for savings and wealth creation.
Good luck every body and great day

Wow, Madani saheb!

I don`t follow stock market any longer but from what I read, natural gas stocks are still quite high in Canada. This is because the demand for natural gas in North America is still quite high.

I used to follow Precision Drilling at one point and it is certainly the best stock of its type in Canada.

#46

d-m, watch out there are some changes in canadian tax laws that will affect these trusts in the future. They are called ``oil and gas royalty trusts``.

#46:

Yes, there was a small window of opportunity when the changes were announced a couple of weeks ago. There was impulse selling of some good income trusts, more than was justified by the changes, but the initial reaction has now been corrected.

``I am against this deal as its detrimental to Pakistan, china and America and for Indian people. Indian people will be subjected to radiation desease in big numers as they built shoddy buildings and recently they were building roof of atomic plant roof came down it was so bad. They are cheat and bad building will lead to leaking nuclear light ande killing in millions due to nuclear disease. ``(madani )

madani sahib -- you are one astute observer -- besides its sinkhole aspect of immoral militarization I am also afraid of another Chernobyl in India or Pakistan -- the Russians are sloppy and corrupt -- the Indians and the Pakistanis are sloppier and corrupter......

nasah:

This is one of the reasons why you should support this deal. If this deal goes through, at least the civilian reactors -and the new ones are supposed to be civil- will come under the IAEA inspection standards which will ensure greater safety than those not subject to external, independent oversight.

#44 by soysauce on December 14, 2006 9:27pm PT


china may make an exception in the case of pakistan or north korea.


Yeah...there`s a real possibility of that happening in the FUTURE....</sarcasm>

LOL #51

Soysauce, doesn`t this whole NPT business seem more show than substance? Neither China nor the US does or should treat friends and foes and everyone else the same.

Re: # 51

Next in the US firing line would be Pakistan. Us would rid Pakistan of all its WMDs including Nukes in the pretext of chasing terrorists. that will make the world a more safe place.

---

#53 by 1saurabh on December 16, 2006 6:44am PT
Re: # 51

Next in the US firing line would be Pakistan. Us would rid Pakistan of all its WMDs including Nukes in the pretext of chasing terrorists. that will make the world a more safe place.

---

hahah! Banyas are always looking for someone else to do their bidding. First you guys got that bhuddu Mujib, and now you think the whole USA will take your bait hook line and sinker. Man talk about wet dreams!

Re: # 54

``Banyas are always looking for someone else to do their bidding.``

It is far wiser than sending JIHADIS into other country.

# 53

But seriously, expecting the US to do that would be too much. :)

---

#55 by 1saurabh on December 16, 2006 7:08am PT
Re: # 54

It is far wiser than sending JIHADIS into other country.

---

Wiser? Wiser my @r$e!

Banyas were finally liberated from commie yoke by the same Jihadis. Now Banyas give us lectures on peace and capitalism. Once a commie banya, always a commie.

---

#56 by kaalchakra on December 16, 2006 7:50am PT
# 53

But seriously, expecting the US to do that would be too much. :)

---

I sincerely hope you meant this as a joke.

I see these so-called Indian nationalist like 1saurabh who are hell bent on inviting US and UK into their regional wars.

Well what can you expect from these ghaddars. They did the same thing by inviting B-EIC (British East India Company) into the regional fights. And guess what! Before we knew it, BEIC was ruling the whole subcontinent.

Now this aulad-e-ghaddars (decedents of traitors) is at it again.

Re: # 54 taikonaut


[.......and now you think the whole USA will take your bait hook line and sinker. Man talk about wet dreams!]

Please look at what your compatriot Mr Ahmad Madani writes below in #41:


``Now kindly read how Indians are in words of president Nixan. Now he was very devious himself. And when he qualifies some body means its real hard case of Saitan.
Nixon write in his memories

“Pakistanis are straightforward and sometimes extremely stupid. Indians are more devious, sometimes so smart that we fall for their line, ..``

So it may not be wet dreams after all! :)

Re: # 58 taikonaut

[.......Now this aulad-e-ghaddars (decedents of traitors) is at it again.]

And what about your wonderful bleeding India through a thousand cuts strategy that didn`t work?

#58 by taikonaut on December 16, 2006 8:37am PT


I see these so-called Indian nationalist like 1saurabh who are hell bent on inviting US and UK into their regional wars.


Funny how the pakis want the US/UK to intervene in Kashmir but now that America is dropping hellfires and killing pakis on paki soil, they`re outsiders who need to be shunned...

taikonaut, there is no common belief that the US will seriously get deep into Pakistan to clear the place of terrorists (assuming there are any terrorists there).

taikonaut #58

`` I see these so-called Indian nationalist like 1saurabh who are hell bent on inviting US and UK into their regional wars. ``

Pakistanis were the first to seek outside help whether it is USA or China.

`` Well what can you expect from these ghaddars. They did the same thing by inviting B-EIC (British East India Company) into the regional fights. And guess what! Before we knew it, BEIC was ruling the whole subcontinent. ``

British or some other European power was going to colonize India. India was too backward, disunited to resist the colonials.

taikonaut Re: # 58

``I see these so-called Indian nationalist like 1saurabh who are hell bent on inviting US and UK into their regional wars.

Well what can you expect from these ghaddars. They did the same thing by inviting B-EIC (British East India Company) into the regional fights. And guess what! Before we knew it, BEIC was ruling the whole subcontinent.

Now this aulad-e-ghaddars (decedents of traitors) is at it again``

---

Guess what is happening here ? ``Ulta Chor Kotwal Ko Daante``. It was Pakistan who repeatedly raised the Kashmir issue on the international forums and joined hands with the US by ditching the Talibans. It was Pakistan who invited the US into its backyard. Now once inside, the US will surely do the unfinished task of removing the WMDs on one pretext or the other. Calling us Indians Gaddars will not change the picture.

regards.

---

#64 by 1saurabh on December 16, 2006 11:34pm PT
taikonaut Re: # 58

It was Pakistan who repeatedly raised the Kashmir issue on the international forums

---

anti-subcontinent forces tend to mutilate history pretty quick.

Oh Baboo Raam! your chucha (uncle of all pseudo-nationalists) was the first one who ran straight to UN for Kashmir. He is the one who promised plebiscite. Nehru is the one who did spin-doctoring with Indian constitution. Remember that article 370?

Read up on your history first.

---

#64 by 1saurabh on December 16, 2006 11:34pm PT
and joined hands with the US by ditching the Talibans. It was Pakistan who invited the US into its backyard.

---

Hardly truthful. Why don`t you say ``Pakistan first invited Commies in Afghanistan, then Pakistan invited USA, then Pakistan invited Talibans``. Man your sense of history is so convoluted!. No wonder ghaddars and sell out to Europeans have use twisted logic to sell out the Indian subcontinent.

Sad indeed.

taikonaut Re: # 65

``No wonder ghaddars and sell out to Europeans have use twisted logic to sell out the Indian subcontinent.``

---

Do you seriously think any country would ``Buy`` Pakistan? Are you nuts? In the present day world nobody would ``Take`` Pakistam even if offered free of cost. Your Jihadi credentials have ensured this.

Simply put the US is only interested in cleaning pure land of Terrorists, eliminate powers that be in Pakistan that support Jihad worldwide and importantly to difuse permanently the Islamic Bomb. The US will achieve this by befriending Pakistan without violance.


Time for Pakistanis now to stop blaming every body else, particularly India, for all its problems.

regards

#65 by taikonaut on December 17, 2006 7:49am PT


He is the one who promised plebiscite.


Not that it matters, but this means the UN resolution on Kashmir is not null and void seeing as how we`re dismissing the UN as an imperial outsider...

again..it doesn`t matter anyway...Kashmir ain`t going to banega pakiland...

Re: # 67

Arjun donot draw fast conclusions. It is said ``who laughs last is best laugh``. Kashmir is like ripe mango and it will fell when it time comes. Things take time so be patient then cry lot.

Re: # 68
In long terms we will get ripe fruit in our laps. No foreign lands or hands are required. Our army is strong and its really waiting game one has to be patient like my cat. She waits patiently for days when one day that birds land on branch near land in seconds game is over bird is in her mouth and victoriously she parades. Things move fast like typhoon, like like east pakistan was gone withinn three weeks almost to this day. I have made calculations carefully and kashmir will be joining motherland in about 26 years. In next posting I will wxplain in detail, but be patient. At that time pakistani led ny NLI will pass through kashmir as hot knife goes through butter fast , sharp and decively. In 26 years astrologically India is going in trouble. Give a=1 b=2 and z=26. and add letters I+N+D+I+A and see what tragic number comes out look at that number its horrible.
When I read your posting its like George Orwells 1984 ``hate minute`` against emanual Goldsten big brother managaes and all even sane gat in frenzy of hate. Why you do not wish good to neighbour who are similar but only of differet race, when you can be living with dark races and white races people. Stopt race hatred, stop anti pakistani racism. Its wrong as its useless and when you know people specially of MQM who control Karach and hyderbad and all urban sindh as indentical race like you indians. Be good neighbourhood, if you can not say good just refrain from saying as it creates hatred and which is consuming lots of otherwise good people.
Good night and good luck.

Re: # 68
In long terms we will get ripe fruit in our laps. No foreign lands or hands are required. Our army is strong and its really waiting game one has to be patient like my cat. She waits patiently for days when one day that birds land on branch near land in seconds game is over bird is in her mouth and victoriously she parades. Things move fast like typhoon, like like east pakistan was gone withinn three weeks almost to this day. I have made calculations carefully and kashmir will be joining motherland in about 26 years. In next posting I will wxplain in detail, but be patient. At that time pakistani led ny NLI will pass through kashmir as hot knife goes through butter fast , sharp and decively. In 26 years astrologically India is going in trouble. Give a=1 b=2 and z=26. and add letters I+N+D+I+A and see what tragic number comes out look at that number its horrible.
When I read your posting its like George Orwells 1984 ``hate minute`` against emanual Goldsten big brother managaes and all even sane gat in frenzy of hate. Why you do not wish good to neighbour who are similar but only of differet race, when you can be living with dark races and white races people. Stopt race hatred, stop anti pakistani racism. Its wrong as its useless and when you know people specially of MQM who control Karach and hyderbad and all urban sindh as indentical race like you indians. Be good neighbourhood, if you can not say good just refrain from saying as it creates hatred and which is consuming lots of otherwise good people.
Good night and good luck.

Re: # 69
I think you are follower of Bal T

A fairly balanced assessment of the deal by a Pakistani ex-ambassador:


The Indo-US nuclear deal

http://dawn.com/2006/12/16/op.htm

By Tariq Fatemi

Excerpts:
While it is not the purpose here to carry out a technical evaluation of the agreement, suffice it to state that both the US and India are convinced that it represents a major victory for both countries that will benefit them in more ways than apparent. It is true, nevertheless, that critics of the Manmohan Singh government, especially those in the opposition BJP, were able to raise a number of technical issues that they claimed represented serious shortcomings in the agreement.

The critics were peeved by the fact that some of the concerns raised by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in his speech to the Indian parliament on August 17, 2006, were ignored by the US Congress. They are upset that the deal may not provide India with “full civil nuclear energy and access to American enrichment and reprocessing technologies”. There is also some concern on issues referred to as a “reciprocity and sequencing”. While the July 18, 2005, agreement had spoken of India and the US taking reciprocal steps to complete their obligations, the final text would require India to finalise its safeguard agreement with the IAEA, (though not to actually sign it), before the US president made his determination of Indian compliance.

The issue of certification had also upset many Indians who opposed the requirement that the US president make annual reports to Congress, including providing a certificate that India was in full compliance with its non-proliferation and other requirements. The US Congress has finessed this issue by using the word “assessment”, rather than “certification”, meaning that the US president provide his “assessment” of whether India is working with the US on issues such as Iran’s nuclear programme. But there is no reference to the imposition of penalty in case of a negative assessment.

The Indians had also wanted a clear assurance of uninterrupted fuel supply over the lifetime of imported reactors in exchange for placing its civilian reactors under in-perpetuity safeguards so that India could build up strategic reserves of nuclear fuel over the lifetime of its reactors. The act, however, enjoins the US government to oppose the stockpiling of nuclear fuel beyond a small reserve.
........................................

However, as happens with any piece of legislation that goes through months of debate, discussion, and bargaining, the 123 Agreement contains redundancies. For instance, certain provisions of this bill are already present in various existing US laws. Indian commentators have rightly pointed out that since this is a piece of domestic US legislation, not requiring any Indian action, New Delhi should quietly take advantage of the benefits flowing from it and not focus on inconsequential details which have little bearing on Indian core interests.

True, the agreement does not give India nuclear power status, but it does enable India to keep eight of its nuclear plants secret for military purposes, while opening the other 14 and all future civilian nuclear power plants to international inspection. The US and other nuclear supplier nations will provide fuel and technology for India’s existing and future civil facilities. There are reports to the effect that India is expected to spend more than $100 billion on producing nuclear energy during the next 10 years, with US companies expecting to get the lion’s share of these contracts. An American mining company has already signed an agreement to sell 500 metric tons of uranium a year to India.

This explains why a powerful coalition of influential lobbies played a critical role in convincing key legislators to extend their support to the administration’s decision to enter into this deal with India. In this effort, the large American business houses were ably assisted by the political action groups established by wealthy Indians, who spent millions of dollars to mount a slick and effective campaign in favour of the bill.

This contains a lesson for all those desirous of extending their influence in the United States. But what is of greater relevance is to see the “deal” beyond the mere confines of its text. Its message is loud and clear. The administration was certainly able to take advantage of the growing, domestic admiration and appreciation of India, not only in terms of what this huge, economically growing secular democracy represents, but what its potential is likely to be in the coming years. Only such strategic considerations could have convinced experienced and mature politicians as Senators Richard Lugar and Joseph Biden, to set aside their lifelong opposition to nuclear proliferation and spearhead the campaign in favour of the bill.

Not surprisingly, US and Indian officials were exultant at the completion of what both rightly claimed was a historic endeavour that reached fruition in less than a year and a half. Indian Foreign Secretary Shiv Shankar Menon described the deal as a “stand alone arrangement” which recognises India’s responsible role as a global player. Under Secretary Nicholas Burns waxed lyrical calling it “a unique agreement for a unique country”.

Global developments over the past years, particularly in the Middle East, have increased India’s importance in the calculus of the US foreign policy establishment. Nothing represents the current predicament of the US as starkly as Iraq. Its dream of worldwide domination, underpinned by the neocon philosophy of this administration, lies in ruins on the banks of the Euphrates.

Iraq’s invasion, in defiance of international public opinion, was meant to establish a docile client state, with its vast oil resources at America’s disposal. And in the bargain, Israel’s last remaining potential threat would also be destroyed. Instead, Iraq has become a graveyard littered with gruesome specimens of America’s follies. Consequently, the US failure to achieve any of its declared objectives has raised questions not only about the moral compass of this great country, but also its ability to sustain its global ambitions.

..........
In such a scenario, India’s willingness “to play ball” — of course on its own terms — is a major positive development for the US, and American planners intend to take full advantage of it. This explains the importance Washington has been attaching to India over the past years and more so after 9/11.


In fact, with the realisation that the US may be entering into a long, sustained confrontation with the world of “radical” Islam, countries such as India, Australia, Japan and to some degree Vietnam, are being looked upon increasingly not only to promote American interests, but to participate in the American-led effort to “contain China” as well. While this does not mean that India will follow Washington’s dictates, it will certainly not hesitate to promote American interests, especially when and where they coincide with its own.

ahmedmadani Re: # 69

I have made calculations carefully and kashmir will be joining motherland in about 26 years. In next posting I will wxplain in detail, but be patient.

---

I am waiting with bated breath. Pl hurry.

regards

US Nuclear deals serve multiple purposes.
India treats this deal as ``acceptance of nuclear status`` by the USA.
Whereas for USA, it is just a way to ``balance mutual trade``. All the $billions now flowing from USA to India must be brought back to US. That is why US will use all its muscle, charm, anger, begging etc. to sell Boeing planes and nuclear reactors.

Just see how US has out smarted France in the nuclear deals with China.

French may jump up and down. But the Chinese have to buy stuff from USA.
France will start winning the day they outsource $billion manufacturing contracts to China.

The same thing is true for India.

For those Pakistanis who feel disheartened, must realize that the nuclear plants will not come in on ``loans and aid``. We must create positive ``trade / services balance`` with USA. And Musharraf seems to be on track for doing just that.

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Westinghouse wins massive China nuclear deal
Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:15 PM IST20

By Emma Graham-Harrison
http://in.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=businessNews&storyID=2006-12-16T151016Z_01_NOOTR_RTRJONC_0_India-280493-2.xml


BEIJING (Reuters) - U.S.-based Westinghouse Electric Co. has won a two-year battle for a multibillion-dollar nuclear power deal with China, edging out French and Russian rivals to secure a contract that may help Beijing smooth ties with Washington.

The deal, estimated in the past at some $8 billion, should warm relations between the world`s top two energy consumers, who have clashed lately over a range of issues from the yuan currency to the Chinese bid for U.S. independent oil firm Unocal.

It will also reaffirm China -- now a laggard in the nuclear sector -- at the forefront of a global trend towards increased use of atomic power, touted by many nations as the cleanest, cheapest solution to the world`s strained energy industry.

``(The agreement) represents a major step forward in our relations and will advance our bilateral trade relationship and the energy security of both our nations,`` U.S. Energy Secretary Samuel Bodman said in a statement after signing the memorandum with Ma Kai, the chairman of the National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC), China`s powerful energy policymaking body.

He said it would help the U.S. balance of payments and create more than 5,500 U.S. jobs. The United States had a record $202 billion trade deficit with China last year.

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#70 madani ji,
That was awesome! Does this mumbo-jumbo work only in english?
In my native language of tamil, with 247 characters, india would add up to 200+ numerologically. What is the significance of that i wonder. Is something really terrible going to happen in 200 seconds, minutes, days, weeks, months or years?
You are a great guy but like all chowk pakis you set a very high standard for everyone else. You have been playing the victim a bit too long.

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Re: # 70by ahmedmadani on December 17, 2006 11:07am PT
Re: # 68
In long terms we will get ripe fruit in our laps. No foreign lands or hands are required. Our army is strong and its really waiting game one has to be patient like my cat.

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I beg to differ Madni sahib. Pakistani army is strong only when it is allied with some large industrial power (s).

Ayub`s time was good for Pakistan economy and Pak economy for several reasons. However one of the most important reason was our alliances like CETO, CENTO, and RCD. If you care to look deeper, all these organizations were American supported and financed.

We will be $tupid to let go of industrial powers when China, India, and every far-East Asian is trying to cozy up with huge industrial states like America, Japan, Germany, UK etc.

In fact it is funny that we want to depend on China who in turn is totally dependent on Americans.

France tries to gain China nuclear foothold [after losing to US-Westinghouse]
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16255689/

.............................China`s decision early on Saturday morning to go with Westinghouse`s design for four 1.1 gigawatt pressurised water reactors rather than Areva`s is a severe blow to the French government...............................................

......................France will this week attempt to salvage a role for its nuclear industry in China`s multi-billion dollar energy programme after Beijing opted for third-generation power plants designed by Westinghouse of the US rather than the French Areva.

Chinese officials arrive in Paris on Tuesday to discuss future industrial cooperation with the French government, which is hoping to secure a role for its EDF electricity group in the construction and operation of the plants. EDF is one of the world`s biggest nuclear operators with 59 reactors in France providing roughly 80 per cent of the country`s electricity needs..............

...................read more at the msnbc website

Re:arjun #78

All right!!! Three cheers for India....Hip, Hip, Hooray!!!

What a day!! We get the nuke deal and we thrash South Africa in the first test match.

Pakistanio, kitni mirchi lagi? Come on guys, admit it. The mirchi is too much, right?

Re: # 75
Mr SoySauce... My computation is done in english , I do not now your type language, we have to be uniform in use as India is english name.
I have herd these chinese and korean oriental sauce stuff is not good like soyasauce as they put dead mices to get flavor. Wonder why usa allows that ?
Any way now india is not free country, now your people have to get nod from usa for any thing as they will put all technicians as engineers and stock chekers in groceries as a consultants and experts and now even IIT collge student has to work under tom who is pipe fitter or sweeper in usa plant as expert in India. Now if they send real indian engineer who is dark Indians will send him back saying hay we are paying in real dollars do not sent dark Indian, send tech or sweeper from yopur plant we will take on head. That is problem of india is color problem.
Ms. A roy has even opposed, then that is sufficent reason for me to see India is becoming slave. As she is most profound Scholar from your land. I agree with her when she said prfoundly in Karachi, Pakistan is defective dictetership and needs understanding while India is democracy with problems and need bloody revolutions. She is pretty fiesty woman who has undergone prison. We have copy cat some prof from Islamabad who is not that profound and he just criticise.
Anyway not you start praying usa, Pakistan can never accept such things, just for money becoming slave of America.
It is sad day as pakistan is already surrounded by rough people and now one of them lost freedom amd became Umbrella carrier of usa, welcome new Banana Republics of India.

ahmedmadani Re: # 80

``Anyway not you start praying usa, Pakistan can never accept such things, just for money becoming slave of America.``

madani saheb just look into your recent history. Pakistan ditched Taliban to curry favour with the US. The ``Dosti`` disappeared in thin air as soon as the US barked.

Same will happen for your ``Kashmir cause``. Pakistan under Gen Musharraf is already changing track wrt Kashmir. Indians are watching - silently.

regards

No N-deal with Pakistan: US


WASHINGTON, Dec 18: The United States has no plans to offer a nuclear deal to Pakistan as the agreement President Bush signed on Monday was `unique to India’, says a senior US diplomat.

Under-secretary of State for Political Affairs Nicholas Burns, who played a key role in negotiating the deal, said that President Pervez Musharraf was not unhappy with the India deal, although some Pakistanis beneath him were.

“We`ve made clear all along that this is a unique deal to India only,” said Mr Burns when a reporter asked what it would take to offer Pakistan a similar deal. “This is an exemption ... we`re making an exception for India only, and an exemption to the law for India only,” he said.

“India is a unique state. I mean, given the weight that India has, given the impact that India has on global warming, on air pollution because of its dependence on fossil fuel, from an environmental standpoint, an energy standpoint, this makes sense,” Mr Burns said.

He said the US wanted to free India of its dependence on Middle Eastern oil by offering it nuclear technology.—Correspondent