Re-Imagining Pakistan

#341 taikonaut, i don`t particularly care for this your-man-bad-my-man-good type argument. If there`s a threat to secularism the answer is more secularism not less. Why did Jinnah become a religious bigot himself if he was fighting religious bigotry?

#341
Congress was not a mass-based party when Jinnah was the top leader. It became a mass-based party after Gandhi made it so.

You clearly can`t distinguish between economic system and political system. I was not talking of being against rich people in the economic system, I was talking of being against rich people not masses having the deciding voice in the political system.


``Muslim being the largest group of Mega farmers, and clear majority in 6 out of 12 (approximate) provinces needed flexible free market constitution. This was to protect themselves against the shenanigans of show-shaw-list Congress. Funny how the pseudo-democrats use dictatorship against 50% of their states.``

Muslim majority states which were five in number got their own independent state Pakistan to protect Mega farmers so what are you whining about here?

``Before the creation of Hindustan in 1947, you the majority Hindus demanded Punjab`s division on religious basis.``

You the majority Muslims demanded on the basis of religion a separate state because you said 25% Muslims refuse to acknowledge the Hindu majority. The separate state you majority Muslims demanded on the basis of religion contained 45% nonMuslims which you demanded to rule over as Muslim majority. How does that make any sense?

How you planned to treat the nonMuslims in Punjab became obvious by end March 1947 when despite all British warnings to Muslim League leaders that communal violence would lead to a split of Punjab province, 30,000 nonMuslims were already in refugee camps after the communal violence perpetuated against them.

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Re: # 343 by sadna on December 18, 2006 11:39am PT
#341
You clearly can`t distinguish between economic system and political system.

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hahah! you are so so simpleton my dear!

Congress was a commie-show-shaw-list party. what do you think Nehru and Indira clan did to Hindi economy?

Other show-shaw-lists Bhutto, Gamal Nasir, Gaddha-fi, (and the list goes on) all tried to bring commie system.

How can you separate a party from its show-shaw-list platform?

Bottom line:

Congress was a commie organization
Opponents of Congress like League were free-market folks.

Commies made everyone poor in the picture of that beggar -look-alike Gandhi.
League made rich, the richer in the picture of Jinnah the sophisticated suave leader.

Look at the first 30 years after the creation of Hindustan where Bihar was the epitome of prosperity.

Look at the first 30 years of Pakistan, where brand new cars, huge mansions defined the way of life.

p.s. off course Commie bhutto destroyed Pakistan`s free market but that`s another thread for another day.

#337
``and really, there is nothing you can say that will change our oipinion about jinnah ``

And really, since you are apparently illiterate, let me point out that I wasn`t even trying. Kindly address your futile remarks to taikonaut #333 because he was recommending that I should want to marry off my hypothetical daughter to Jinnah.

Re: # 339

frau sadna

...... okay, then simply get over it .......... what is it with you that you keep on harping about partition .........

think about it - if the british hadn`t arrived on the scene when the mogul empire was falling apart, there would have been no india and no pakistan - there would have been a hundred small kingdoms, fiefdoms and principalities run by randy rajas, marauding maharajas and nincompoop nawabs and you would have been the seventh child bride of the one-eyed muslim raja of bhajipur and idleenagar ............

#333
He was an elitist who disliked getting the `masses` into the political system, his vision for the future constitutional set up of India was restricted to maximising the influence of Muslims over others far beyond the claims of natural justice by a minority. His choice of politics was to abuse everyone who did not surrender to that vision. He had no desire to seek Hindu votes ever (he was determined to be a leader only for the Muslims). He demanded a veto over the ideology of other parties about who could be their members, what should be their ideology and who they could nominate to office. He also demanded an absolute veto for Muslims over the rest of the Indian communities in every province/municipality irrespective of Muslim population percentage and called rest of India`s majority wrt Muslims as inherently evil simply on the count that it was a majority, legislative or otherwise. That disqualifies him for everything as far as I am concerned. Pakistanis are most welcome to claim Jinnah as their own.

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Re: # 335 by sadna on December 18, 2006 10:39am PT
#333
He was an elitist who disliked getting the `masses` into the political system,

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Masses? Oh Baboo Raam Jinnah was the top leader of Congress until the fateful day when Gandhi launched Mullah inspired Tehrik Lafafa (hot-aire-filled-bag movement). Jinnah`s secular, free-market view made him leave pinko-Congress. Don`t you even know your party?

Dunno where you live or how much you earn. I am assuming you are part of (or supporter of) the up and coming rich class of Indians.

If you hate infosys richie-rich, or the premjis of India, then we have nothing in common. You may live in your show-shaw list heaven for the rest of your life.

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Re: # 335 by sadna on December 18, 2006 10:39am PT
his vision for the future constitutional set up of India was restricted to maximising the influence of Muslims over others

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Muslim being the largest group of Mega farmers, and clear majority in 6 out of 12 (approximate) provinces needed flexible free market constitution. This was to protect themselves against the shenanigans of show-shaw-list Congress. Funny how the pseudo-democrats use dictatorship against 50% of their states.

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Re: # 335 by sadna on December 18, 2006 10:39am PT
He had no desire to seek Hindu votes ever

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So called secularists are now playing religious card. Sad indeed.
Jinnah stood for free-market secular approach towards life. How could he ever go to people and say ``You hindus`` come over to me.

Hindu card was played by Congress from day 1.
Religion based politics was played by Congress from day 1.
Tehrik Lifafah movement was started by Congress.
Every bearded Mullah was part of Congress.

Even then you insist Jinnah should have used cards of Hindu Muslim $hite. Shame on you!

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Re: # 335 by sadna on December 18, 2006 10:39am PT
He also demanded an absolute veto for Muslims over the rest of the Indian communities

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Partially true.
After the creation of Hindustan in 1947, you the majority Hindus have divided Punjab based on religion.

Before the creation of Hindustan in 1947, you the majority Hindus demanded Punjab`s division on religious basis.

Now you turn around and blame Jinnah. You have no shame!

Re: # 335

faru sadna,

.......... cry me a river, then build a bridge and get over it .............. even though you are having a hard time swallowing the bitter pills, manto is already happily married and pakistan is fait accompli ......... and really, there is nothing you can say that will change our oipinion about jinnah - we are thankful to the man for getting us away from dhoti clad vegetarians led by a half-naked faqir with serious identity problems ............ now, if you will get out of kashmir, we will leave you alone ...........

Re: # 337

Are you sure you will leave Indians if they get out of Kashmir?
I think there is a more chance your foreskin will grow back than this
happening.

#318
I don`t have much to say whether indian-style democracy is inherently virtuous - altho as a practical matter it leads to compromise which is the glue holding the union together - but i would take exception to you citing the behavior of a set of indians as somehow reflective of how things work on the ground - this is naive in the extreme.

#318 by Mantolives on December 18, 2006 5:35am PT


Nothing on chowk has given me confidence that the citizens


I just heard the collective groan of anguish of a billion indians at the realization that they`ve failed in their lives ultimate goal of getting a paki to endorse their democratic credentials..

I envision mass suicides..unless you tell them what they can do to attain their only goal in life: your stamp of approval for their democracy..

Corr: The oddest thing was that the people who were terming Hoodbhoy a evil-intentioned foreign agent bent upon undermining Pakistani nationalism were the same people who implicity agreed with him that truth diversity etc were the opposite of Jinnah`s vision.

Epilogue: The oddest thing was that the people who were terming Hoodbhoy a evil-intentioned foreign agent were the same people who implicity agreed with him that truth diversity etc were opposite of Jinnah`s vision.

This is a similar type of mystery to the one where people not only abuse one set of people for opposing the creation of Pakistan but also abuse another set of people for facilitating the creation of Pakistan, both at the same time. Meanwhile the actual vocal advocates and facilitators of the creation of Pakistan(the ML and the British) do not merit any comment whatsoever.

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Re: # 328 by sadna on December 18, 2006 9:18am PT
Epilogue: The oddest thing was that the people who were terming Hoodbhoy a evil-intentioned foreign agent were the same people who implicity agreed with him that truth diversity etc were opposite of Jinnah`s vision.

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Ask sanatani and he will use the same twisted logic about Gandhi as well.

Creation of modern day Hindustan is a complex set of events. Anyone trying to bottle it in ``hindu-Muslim`` religious $hite is obviously mistaken. Don`t you think Mr. Sadna?


As for Jinnah, it is clear if you care to see just his pictures during his long political career (I know reading his speeches is kind hard for so-called educated Indians). Look at him and figure out if:

1. He is making speeches from a mosque?
2. Is he waving Quran in any of the pictures?
3. Is he carrying issues around based on some dilapidated mosque similar to janam bhumi?

A common answer to all these is ``Heck No!``.

OTOH,

His pictures present a man who is

1. Filthy rich
2. Wears 3 piece tailor made suites direct from London`s big name darzis (tailors).
3. Drives Rolls Royce
4. Enjoys the best wines
6. Dines in the best restaurants.
7. Dates the prettiest AND wealthy ladies.
8. Befriends the richest AND secular Parsis, Hindus, and Muslims.

Bottom line, he stood for free market, secular, merit based, super-rich approach towards life.

He is more in line with Tata, Premji, Carnegie, Rockefellers instead of some Show-Shaw-list (pseudo-socialist) begger-look-alike Gandhi, madari-Nehru, or Munna Bhai, Chota Bhai, or some bearded Mawdoodi Mullah cabal.

So Mr. Sadna, read his speeches and if you can`t, then at least look at his pictures. You would have married off your daughter to him instead of some begger-$hite Gandhi.


Jinnah was in the 1930s what every Indian wants to be in 2010, i.e Rich, smart, lift up from the bootstraps, and secular.

Indians should be the last group throwing stones at this great man.
Mullahs (both Muslim and Hindu types) are off course a different story.

Re: # 333

Oye Choothe bande Takeanot,

``Dates the prettiest AND wealthy ladies``. are you accusing Mr J to be a womaniser.

Unlike a joke of a ``mega farmer`` like you who insists on sticking his prick in every banteedar`s mother/sister/wife/daughter (who knows a b``````strd like you would have done it with all but the wife and made her rut under a possibly bigger joke of a mega farmer) Mr Jinnah was a devoted husband even though a somewhat cold one unlike ou he never needed to prove his mardangi to anbod by dating other women.

See this is just the point I made to that other IDIIIOOT mantolies Mr J would be embarrased na ashamed to haved dumb jerks like you for supporters.

I have SAID TAKANOT is a LIAR. By repeating such lies and trash about Mr Jinnah so as to cast him in the mould of your wet dreams you have proven you are not just a LIAR but A CHEAT A THUG A FRAUD AND A CHARLATAN.

All patriotic Hindus to Sing Praises of Jinnah the Gr8st Hindutwawadi (by default of course not design) on 25th of December.

Sanatani

Re: # 333

I know Jinnah died in 1948. Would Jinnah done any better than any of the Pakistani rulers ?