Re-Imagining Pakistan

Re: # 144

Brother_Zamanov,

No need to try so hard ... my point of view was adequately expressed in #37.

The objection in main is to Dr. Hoodbhoy`s insinuation (which mind you contradicts what he has said in several of his other articles and papers on this board) that somehow his suggestions, truth, diversity and creativity is in contradiction to Unity, Faith and Discipline which are presented (quite out of context) as some sort of fascist slogans of religious nationalism.

Whereas, the first thing that did strike me was that unity to Jinnah meant unity in diversity.. which was essentially the central point of Muslim League`s conflict with Congress which put forth the Indian Unity in exclusion to all diversity... that faith to Jinnah was faith in one`s own self and one`s abilities (yaqeen-e-muhkam) and that discipline was not necessarily a contradiction of creativity. From Law to Music, creativity is only fruitful if it is disciplined... and I reject the notion that creativity is a break from logic (and hence discipline)...

The reason Hoodbhoy`s credentials came up was probably because of my comment in response to Aisha Sarwari where I asked her not to call Hoodbhoy a professor of science lest we have to call Farhat Hashmi a scholar of Islam. Surely Farhat Hashmi too can produce her credentials as an Islamic Scholar and paper upon paper. Degrees and Madrassah sanads don`t make professors of science or scholars of Islam.

A scientist does not consider his theory irrefutable or even his ideas unchallengeable. Science cannot be science if it is not testable or irrefutable... it is the element of irrefutability that makes science science. The pompous tone of Hoodbhoy has often contradicted this element- to me he is a dogmatist not a scientist. And then we got into a pissing match about Hoodbhoy`s credentials... well if he is a great physicist surely there must be a great ground breaking achievement that he would have? I know of none. It need not be Nobel Prize.

So what is my problem with Hoodbhoy... it is certainly not private or personal. It is very public.

Manto mian,

(who are defending Pakistan and its founding principles )

Perhaps I too would be in favour of a democratic, secular Pakistan (or any other country that matter). But is it imperative for Pakistan to continue on its founding principles? What if its people were to reject altogether a democratic and secular path? Would it be right to force them to adhere to the founder`s vision.

I, for one, foresee a democractic Pak sometime in the future but not a secular one. A secular state would essentially imply an assumption on part of the state/citizens that all faiths ought to be equal and that adherents of all faiths be treated equally. Is that premise accepted in the Islamic world. The evidence suggests otherwise. But I could be wrong. Any views on your part on this.

Regards


Regards

Re: # 145

Yasser:

I fail to see where the Prof has done wrong. His `parallel` with Jinnah`s words was not criticized and there was no insinuation at all that those three words were in any way useless. This is a speech where he got kids to get their own theme for life - perhaps in line with encouraging people to think creatively.

Hoodhbhoy is doing a marvelous job taking on the fauji and fundo fuks. His opinions are naturally challengeable though they are in consonance with my views. He may be a mediocre scientist. I don`t know the metrics used to show what a `groundbreaking scientist` is. But he`s a scientist in a land where science is pissed upon. Arrogantly upholding the scientific method is required.

This place needs more Hoodhbhoy`s who give Pakistan a name in legitimate and credible research. http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Pervez+Hoodbhoy&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Search

Unlike other `scientists` like the chairman of the Punjab University Advisory Committee who publishes copied papers and submits them to international journals, gets caught and reaffirms Pakistan`s image of a sham-state.

[[[So we can change for the better. We can be like other nations on this planet. We can make responsible choices for who should govern us. We can bring justice to our people. We can be a decent civilized, peaceful, well-informed, educated people. It’s only a question of trying and getting our act together. That is the task before all of us, young and old.]]]

Mr.Hadood boy

Sir , with all due respect.

It looks like you`re unfamiliar with Pakistani society in general. What do you mean? can be???

Yes, Pakistanis are already decent civilized, peaceful, well- informed, educated people. There is no need of trying or getting our act together.

We are not beasts, we are much more refined people than any nation on this planet earth.

You are too, blind to see that . Please, correct your vision and change your prejudiced glasses with open minded glasses , so, that you can see with out being biased and inclined towards India.

Thanks

Dear Rozaiba,

No my friend the good professor is not upholding the scientific method any more than Dr. Farhat Hashmi. There is no arrogance in science. Testability and falsifiability are the essentials of the very definition of science. And no he is not taking on Mullahs and faujis and whoever and whatever group you have in mind... there is much more to all this than that which meets the eye.

Needless to say if he was actually taking any of these forces on, he would not be sitting as a tenured professor at Quaid-e-Azam University in Islamabad, the road to which, literally, goes from between the tall buildings and structures of Pakistani establishment. As for the first part... the insinuation is very clear- you cannot miss it.

The comparison should not be with Punjab University tenured professors... I already gave an example. Surely you agree that Dr. Abdus Salam... the person who rose from within the ranks of this very system, Dr. Hoodbhoy declares as sham.

Like Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan, Dr. Hoodbhoy is a master at self promotion.

Yasser:

You will certainly have my check for your campaign, if foreigners can contribute. It is good to compliment the adversary, as you have done to Sadna.

I apologize if my posting became a cause that trigerred many cat-call. Visions do not need to be opposite (Islamo-fascism if it comes in Pakistan would be an opposite vision indeed). Hence there is no need to think ``faith, unity and diversity`` must be opposite visions to ``truth, diversity and creativity``. My point to you was that you lend your support to the both, and other point I made was that that you subjectively applied your logic of body of work done in a non-specialization field by the person.

Indeed I have studied ``truth``, ``diversity`` and ``creativity`` from various aspects. I think chase of ``truth`` is futile and should be left to religious nuts, and forgive me to lawyers. Diversity has many aspects, and so has Creativity. The creativity to me is synthesization of known ideas, whereas ``inventitivty`` is coming up with completely anew. Later rarely happens.

I also think Romair has raised important questions, and some interesting discussions came out, if Chowk cat-calls don`t drown your voice.

I look forward to reading more of your views on these two visions.

Anil

Was hoodbhoy ever invited by Mantolives and his Mrs to contribute to Nasseb.com or whatever webzine they own? And did Hoodbhoy respond to it?

Otherwise it does not make sense for the two of them to carry on like the way they are on the FP. It is getting way to personal for anyones taste. There is a whiff of burning and smoldering embers are visible. The only person getting burnt here is Mantolives (and given his intelligence level he surely knows this).

Manto,

1. Discussing Dr Sahib`s academic credentials on this place shows that you are trying to be personal. Trying to undermine his academic achievements, because you don`t agree with him on some other political topic, is a cheap effort. And more shamefully, you are trying to gauge his research with your college physics knowledge and Dr Salam`s biography...

If you don`t have any idea of research, be a decent liberal and don`t try to prolong the discussion on academia and research only because you made a mistake of starting it not knowing that where Hoodbhoy stood in research community.

But you are continuing like a Mullah who keeps on emphasizing on something who he claimed wrongly out of emotions and now find it a disgrace to acceot that he was wrong.


2. I know you have studied a lot about Jinnah and Pakistan movement. I respect your knowledge about this issue. Go ahead and write another article tellingHoodbhoy thathe was wrong in his claims. (Without being personal indeed.)

Re: # 152

Charlie,

your entreties might have come too late. See hamidm2, ironmask (before 50s) Tahmed32 zeemax all have directly or indirectly asked the young whipper snapper to pull back.

And now, what is the urdu phrase (for pulling his leg), is being done on UP, and he is stuck with wiki...

each to his own!

Re: # 151

Dear dotty,

As you maybe aware that Hoodbhoy is a regular contributor and a featured author at Naseeb Vibes.. and he shall continue to be I am sure. Don`t always look for a personal angle.

Also... please point out where Zeemax and Tahmed have told me anything of the sort.

Re: # 152

Dear Charlie,

Now that was a very disappointing post coming as it did from a person who I have great respect for - unlike the other jokers here.

Had you bothered to read the interacts (which you didn`t) you would know that I did not raise the issue of Dr. Hoodbhoy`s credentials, which were brought up by Ironmask, which I countered with a simple question to which no one has given me an answer. What ground breaking research has Hoodbhoy carried out in the field of Physics? Apparently ... my knowledge of College Level Physics, Abstract Algebra and Dr. Salaam`s biography was enough to bamboozle those (check out unplugged) who were abusing me... so unless you can reasonably tell me of the groundbreaking research this gentleman carried out, my response to Iron Mask stands.

But that was not my point. I had merely pointed out that the pompous manner in which the good doctor sahab has claimed to be the votary of all progress and humanity. You may read my posts to Rozaiba and Brother Zamanov in this regard.

Dear Manto,

Since you will need loads of money to run your campaign and perhaps Anil mian is not necessarily a reliable source of support, I am forwarding to you this e-mail from somebody who may be able to help you out.

She seems to have loads of money and according to her, you will also be conducting a good deed!

I say, go for it!!

---

A letter from Manto`s potential campaign contributor
hello [mariamkoffi100@centrum.sk]

Dearest one in the lord,

I am Mrs Mariam Koffi, from Ivory Coast, Cote D`Ivoire. I was married to Mr.Stephen Koffi who was a contractor with the government of Cote D`Ivoire before he died in the year 2003 after few days in the hospital The doctor said his death was as a result of poison.We were married for so many years without a child. Before his death we were both born again Christian. Since his death I decided not to remarry or get a child outside my matrimonial home which the Bible is against. When my late husband was alive he deposited a trunk box with a security company here in Cote D lvoire.Which contains the sum of Us$22.million dollars.Presently this money is still in the custody of the security company here in Cote D lvoire but the consignment was not made known to the security company as money rather it was decleared as a family valuables to the security company for security reasons.

Recently, my Doctor told me that it is very likely i will die within the next nine months due to cancer problem. Having known my condition I decided to donate this fund to a church,organization or good person that will utilize this money the way I am going to instruct herein. I want a church organization or good person that will use this fund for orphanages, widows and other people that need help and also propagating the word of God and to endeavor that the house of God is maintained.

The Bible made us to understand that``Blessed is the hand that giveth``. l took this decision because I don`t have any child that will inherit this money and my husband relatives are not Christians not even good at all because they are the one that responsible for the death of my husband in other to have all my late husband`s properties and I don`t want my husband`s efforts to be used by those that conspired for his death. I don`t want them to know about this development and l know that With God all things are possible, This is why I am taking this decision.Though it was very painful to hear this kind of news from my doctor but I am not afraid of death because I know where I am going. I know that I am going to be in the bosom of the Lord.

I don`t think there is need for any telephone communication in this regard because of my health but the important thing to me is for you to do what i will require you in this regard. As soon as I receive your reply I shall give you the contact of the security company in Cote d` lvoire. I will also issue a letter of authorization to the security company that will prove you the present beneficiary of this consignment. I also want you, church or the organization to always pray for me because the lord is my only shepherd. My happiness is that I lived a life of a worthy Christian. Whoever that Wants to serve the Lord must serve him in spirit and Truth. Please always be prayerful all through your life.

Please assure me that you will act accordingly as i Stated herein. Hoping to receive your response immedaitely. Thanks and Remain blessed in the Lord.
l remain yours sister in Christ.please respond to this email.[mariamkoffi100@yahoo.fr]

Best regards,

Mrs. Mariam Koffi.

abey mantolives you are one hell of guy....always on the make trying to deflect arguments. You were the one who started it in #40 .... and carried on in that manner. My response was to your interact.

You are a real buffoon! A sorry excuse for a sentient being!

Re: # 157

I have seen 40 again... and it is exactly how I remember it.

All I had said in 40 was that he ought not to be called a professor of science because he is as much a professor of science as Dr. Farhat Hashmi is a scholar of Islam... (Farhat Hashmi has as many similar ``impressive`` credentials and ``papers`` and TV syndications as Dr. Hoodbhoy. )

The remaining discussion is in response to your posts 40-44 in which you claimed that Hoodbhoy`s credentials were sterling...

But the fact of the matter is that Hoodbhoy does not have any groundbreaking achievements in his field.... and I have asked you fellows to name one. You guys have been putting up papers and citations and abusing me and telling me that I have no right to comment because I don`t have a Physics degree (forget the mockery a certain self proclaimed physicist/mathematician who calls himself Alephnull but should be called A`null made of himself on unplugged when I raised some very elementary questions vis a vis like Lie Algebra and Lie Group Models which he had no clue about ...)

Instead of abusing me and attacking me personally feel free to produce this ground breaking achievement that you (IronMask) claimed the great ``Professor of Science`` had under his belt.

Re: # 150

Dear Anil,

Thank you for kind words and endorsement.

Vis a vis ... the same maybe applied to the other person and perhaps if applied and seen in that light that other person`s struggle may be understood better. It (that other person`s struggle) was nothing if not a class action law suit fought and won at the highest level.

In response to Dotty`s Boo boo...

Hoodbhoy...

www.naseeb.com/naseebvibes/authors-detail.php?uid=93461305107055 - 17k -