Sanskritization, de-Sanskritization and Colonial Rule

i know it is fashionable to blame the British for all our ills in the Subcontinent but arguing that they were responsible for the solidification of the caste system is a bit much! Excuse my ignorance but aren`t the Laws of Manu responsible? The British in fact were the ones who outlawed many of the more obscene aspects of the caste system.

Buddhism developed as a reaction to the caste sytem--how can you cite that as evidence for the flexibility of it before the British came?!

I am glad that I read this article because from its name “Sanskritization” I thought it has something to do with the Sanskritization of Urdu language. While having a conversation with an Indian friend she asked me that she loves Faiz and can I recommend some good translation of his works? I responded that why don’t you read “Nuskha-hai-Wafa” in original Urdu or Hindi? She told me that she cannot read Urdu/Hindi in Arabic script because she can only understand English and Sanskrit alphabet. Then it occurred to me that probably after independence (or before?) the Indian government has changed the alphabet from Arabic to Sanskrit. Majority of the people of India belong to Hindu civilization and they probably want to revive their ancient civilization. Therefore my objection to this change of alphabet will be undemocratic, but from my perspective it’s a pity that most Indians now can’t read the original works of Ghalib and Faiz. Translations can convey the meaning and substance in prose but poetry is mostly about words and if you change the letter, the beauty of words is lost.

#2 Almost all Urdu writers are available in Devnagri script.

Re: # 1
Actually you should read the article again. By the way Manu Smriti is a Smriti not a Shruti and therefore can be rejected whenever necessary. Of course I would say the same about a Shruti too if I didn`t like it. -)

Secondly it was the English who gave so much importance to the Manu Smriti. Most Brahmanic communities were not even aware of the damn thing.
Don`t get carried away by Deepa Mehta and other types. It takes very little time to implement a dogma. For example Scottish Highlanders never actually considered kilts a ethnic dress.

And even the Manu Smriti is not dogmatic. This bit is from chapter 10 .

``As the son of Shudra can attain the rank of a Brahmin, the son of Brahmin can attain rank of a shudra. Even so with him who is born of a Vaishya or a Kshatriya``

You see it`s all interchangeable. Just us, who like to hang on to power, like to keep the status quo.

I`d like to know where you got your ideas about Buddhism too.

I agree that British used our internal differences to their advantage but Naqsha had a valid point here.

Overall, I didnt find anything substantial in this article.

Differences, institutional or otherwise is natural among any collection of human beings BUT how we meet those issues collectively is the point. I dont think there`s any consensus on the `solution` aspect among Indians.

Re: # 4

I`ve read a lot on Buddha and Buddhism including the excellent books of Karen Armstrong and also her biography of Buddha...

If it is so interchangeable why do upper castes still treat the lower castes like shyte?

Author,

You keep writing on important issues but u barely cut thru the issues. It appears that u prefer to skate across the issues.

Abt de-Sanskritisation: I see westernisation happening not de-sanskritisation. Western culture is the new age sanskriti in India. Though protests erupt when Gere kisses Shilpa, we ignore that our movies project worse kind of vulagarity (but nobody protests then!).

Ur quasi-definition of DS appear to be made by keeping the electoral politics in mind. Nothing else.

This bihari chick keeps writing useless articles for chowk and doesnt even bother to interact on them. Why should anyone bother about her bihari BS?

Ref nauman72 #2

[I am glad that I read this article because from its name “Sanskritization” I thought it has something to do with the Sanskritization of Urdu language.]

You were mistaken before you read the article and your comments show that you remain mistaken.

``Sanskrit`` means refined, ``Urdu`` means language of the army camps. There is no way Urdu can be Sanskritized. So have no fear on that account.

[While having a conversation with an Indian friend she asked me that she loves Faiz and can I recommend some good translation of his works? I responded that why don’t you read “Nuskha-hai-Wafa” in original Urdu or Hindi? She told me that she cannot read Urdu/Hindi in Arabic script because she can only understand English and Sanskrit alphabet.]

You may think that Urdu/Hindustani/Hindi must be written in Urdu script for it to be comprehensible. It can be written in the script of the Hindi language (called Devanagari). Just as Taiwanese students read Shakespeare written in Chinese characters but in the English language. Several Hindi advertisements and slogans in India are now written in the Roman script so that people who can`t read Devanagari can still read them. Language is different from the script employed to write the language with.

[Then it occurred to me that probably after independence (or before?) the Indian government has changed the alphabet from Arabic to Sanskrit.]

Nope. Once the pesky Muslims left East Punjab, the Punjabis figured there weren`t enough Urdu-reading customers for them to continue using the Urdu script for the Punjabi language. So they dumped it in favor of Gurmukhi and Devanagari scripts. The Government still caters to the Urdu-speaking population. Just go to Allahabad or Varanasi and you will notice that the railway station names are written in Urdu also.

[Majority of the people of India belong to Hindu civilization and they probably want to revive their ancient civilization. Therefore my objection to this change of alphabet will be undemocratic, but from my perspective it’s a pity that most Indians now can’t read the original works of Ghalib and Faiz. Translations can convey the meaning and substance in prose but poetry is mostly about words and if you change the letter, the beauty of words is lost.]

If those works are published in the Devanagari script, no translation is needed for North Indians to understand them. As to the rest of Indians, nope, we don`t speak Urdu or Hindi and we are happy speaking Java and C++.

After reading Aparna Pande`s crap on Chowk, I understand why my father-in-law called all American PhD degrees of his generation complete crap! His opinion seems to have continued validity!

Yes, the Nadars of Tamil Nadu have attempted to improve the standing of their caste but the British most certainly didn`t help them along. When the Nadars petitioned to be allowed entry into the Meenakshi Temple in Madurai, the Madras High Court (of the 1880s, consisting of Englishmen as Justices) tartly observed that the Nadars historically haven`t had the right of entry into that temple; that they have temples to their own gods and goddesses to which they are denying entry to the Scheduled Castes; and so, they could bloody well lump it and should stay out of the Meenakshi Temple.

It took Sri Vaidyanatha Iyer of Madurai, a leader in the Congress Party, to spearhead the entry of all people into temples and it was the efforts of the Brahmin leadership of the Congress that got these idiots the right to enter Meenakshi Temple or any other temple in India, a grave mistake in my opinion.

A good example of de-Sanskritisation by a Nadar would be the living together without the benefit of the clergy by one Rajathi Ammal who has been co-habiting with Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion and bore him a daughter, Kanimozhi, out of wedlock. Considering that such behavior was tolerated only from the Devadasi community, it is indeed a great step backward by a Nadar woman, who would normally have ranked herself well above a Devadasi, to have come down to that level.

#2

do they mix hubris and distribute it in the municipal water supply in Pakistan?

I read some of the books of M.N.Srinivas and what really struck me was the Caste is a ``permanent`` entity that even survives the change of religion- atleast to some generations. Also , there have ben movement across varna with caste/communities or parts of them moving across varna. I read ``Chachanama`` some time back and found that the Kshatriya king Dahar was actually a brahmin who got involved with the queen and became a king and his ascetic relatives abandoned him. So there does appear to be some truth in Srinivas` writings that the varna is a theoratical construct and the caste is a much permanent feature of the hindoo society. `Sankritization` is like Pakistan`s `Arabianization` which serves as a reference for societies trying to search for its` identity in the modern world.

Re: #7, 8
I checked spelling it is Sanskrut but here used as Sanskrit. Wonder which is correct pronounciation ?
Now Ranjitji you may be from IIT college but according to UNO only institution of higher learning and international stature is mentioned as J . Nehru Univ. It appears all Indians politicians children go there to learn. Does Sanjay , Rajiv or Rahul Gandhi or children of big people go there so future leaders and thinker and social scientist and political scientists of india are being groomed. Present nepali rebel leader was trained at JNU. Now you exindians are not bad. But if you right letter to your pM you do not expect answer. Same way Ms.Pande does not want to answer and waste her time. You mortal should feel preveliged to reads words. Future indian children may have chance to read her selected works. Newton never answer quaries from farmers.
To expect response from write means to believe in miracles. ( Old times miracles happened not now days)

13 ahmedmadani,

U are right. The spelling shud be Sanskrut or more accurately Sanskrutam. These words were `donated` by Britishers to us.

Singapore shud be Singapuram. Malaysia, Indonesia were the names given by Britishers. Thailand is not the real name of the country. Japan`s asli name is Nippon. Many countries in Africa were `named` by colonisers.

As 4 the rest of ur post...LOL.

British were over there, that`s one reason Indians are over here.


Changing places
Where immigrants to the UK come from
1 India 92,000
2 Australia 78,000
3 Poland 69,000
4 South Africa 63,000
5 US 50,000
6 China 49,000
7 Pakistan 46,000
8 Germany 43,000
9 France 28,000
10 New Zealand 27,000
11 Spain 27,000
12 Philippines 20,000
13 Nigeria 19,000
14 Japan 17,000
15 Bangladesh 17,000
Where British citizens choose to emigrate
1 Australia 71,000
2 Spain 58,000
3 France 42,000
4 New Zealand 30,000
5 US 25,000
6 Canada 17,000
7 Netherlands 8,000
8 UAE 7,000
9 Germany 6,000
10 South Africa 6,000
Source: ONS 2004-05

Re:ahmedmadani#13
Madaniji, I think it is plain rude to publish long winded articles with strong opinions in them, while ignoring all interacts from people. I mean, what is the point of it? Does she want to give a lecture or have a discussion? If she just wants to lecture, I saw screw her.