Sanskritization, de-Sanskritization and Colonial Rule

Re: # 69, khamy1,

As I know `Persian` I can very well `translate` this ghazal for you. But I am not going to do that for free. Moreover, you have asked me to `explain`, which is not my forte, so excuse me.

#68 by Kaalchakra,

Well said Kaal saheb. They are all mixing up language with script, may be due to religious reasons. I have no problem with different scripts, even naming these language(s) differently don`t concern me. But insisting on these being different languages is harming majority of Urdu speakers and writers.

But I agree to disagree till the matter is not decided by the people.

Samar

samar,
``They are all mixing up language with script, may be due to religious reasons. ``
yaar, when did i talk about script(or religion)? khair ...lets agree to disagree as we earlier did.Since kaalchakra understands what I am trying to say and what is at stake here...let me reply to him.
``Indian urdu poetry will be very different from Arabic/Persian poetry of the past.``
kaalchakra...My point is that Urdu has internalized these ``influences`` since it was born.These are innate. not acquired. These influences are in its dna; which the poetry of earliest Urdu poets like Ghalib,Mir would tell you. One fine day you decide this influence has to go.Fine..arrey bhai accept toh karo.!! Why this continued dishonesty of ``One language two scripts``? In fact you are allowing only that part of Urdu to flourish that is already common(intersects) with Hindi.So one day this dishonest statement of ``One language two scripts`` will be true in India,if it is not already.
``And he would draw more words and sensibilities from his connections to awadhi and brajbhasha than from Arabic and Persian languages and cultures. ``
That Indian has no other choice! He may want to write like Ghalib, Mir, Faiz but he does not have the ammo for it.He can try, but he will end up with a watered down version..and the sad part is..he would not even know why is that so..for he is been fed the mantra of one laguage two scripts for so long..he thinks he actually knows Urdu.Of course...some may be ndustrious enough to realize this and learn,but that is another thing.
``By the way I could figure out most of Sri malihabadi, although not all. Had we been up against something like kamayani, I would have been in worse trouble :( ``
now tell me, when you read kamayani.what is the problem? Only some words that you can go look up.You can actually write like that if you so desire.But this by Josh..you can understand...(and understanding is not a problem yet), but can you imagine yourself writing iike that?
So..lets not even talk about Urdu/Hindi/Hindu/Muslim/Nastalique/Devnagri for a while. Lets talk in terms of poets..The land which is the birthplace of poets like Mir,Ghalib, Josh ,Firaq, Majaz..will never have any other poet like them.Poets like them will be on the other side of the border, and the greatest of them all ..Faiz`s mother tongue is Punjabi.Ironical, isnt it?
But as Ghalib would have said..
GHalibe-KHasta ke bagair, konse kaam band haiN ? roi`ye zaar zaar kya, kiji`ye haaye haaye kyuN

As a person who does not know much about Hindi / Urdu, I was watching a Pakistani (free preview channel, Indus I think..) . I could not figure out any difference between watching `Zee` and `Indus`.. They sound the same..

Re: # 73, masanamuthu,

I will tell you why! It was because what Indus aired in Urdu got communicated to you in Hindi!!

What is in a name yaar!!!

Samar

samar:

Hindi and Urdu are the same. Thinking about it, this looks like a good weapon in the hands of anti-Hindi-imposition folks. They could make use of the fact to get ``Hindu parties`` to support pure Hindu languages like Tamil, Kannada, Telugu etc.. against the bastardized Hindi.. I din`t mean to start a ``flame war``..

Re: # 72, rahul_capri,

We are communicating on different wavelengths. This is my last attempt to get to you.

What I am trying to make you understand is Urdu/Hindi poetry was/is safe in the hands of Muktibodhs, Raghuvir Sahais, Rahi Masoom Razas, Asad Zaidis, Devtales, Rajesh Joshis and many others plus some others who write this language in Saudi script. OK! How dare you think after 60 years of independence genuine Urdu/Hindi poets could be counted on fingers?

Samar

Re: # 75, masanamuthu,

No problem! Every human being has been bastardized to the core. I can not use this word for languages though. Any language.

Samar

#66 rahul dont be afraid to open the can of worms ;-)

i guess there is a hindi/urdu of 99% of the masses, then there is the khalis-zuban of the asharafiyas and shuddh-hindi for Bharat sarkar sevarth (even here the word sarkar is ``urdu``).

i did a little experiment by going on the matrimonial site of rediff and did a search for musslman rishtas and hindu rishtas. hindu rishtas has languages listed as telugu, rajasthani, haryanvi, panjabi, marathi, hindi and so on .. no urdu in sight. of 20 urdu rishtas from various areas, two listed as hindi (both from UP), 1 as bengali and the rest as urdu, and they were from vizag, pune, bangalore, rajasthan, chattisgarh, bangal and so on.

so, its clear, that in the least, hindus dont think they speak urdu and muslims, even from vizag and pune speak ahle-zuban.

Re: # 71
[As I know `Persian` I can very well `translate` this ghazal for you. ]

...thank you for being honest...may i then assume that if you did not know persian, you could not understand/explain this piece of poetry by shri josh?...are you going to tell us now that persian and hindi are the same language written differently? if that is your contention then your earlier comment about urdu script being saudi script which is really no script makes you an idiot, which you probably are...however, your being an idiot is based on my initial assumption, which may or may not be correct...so there....;)

rahul, samar

Perhaps you guys are speaking of different things. The word `language` does not mean the same in the way you two use it. :(


khamy1

Stop bullying samar :)

If he knows Persian (see, I am impressed!), he knows that there is no such thing as saudi script. He is making a `cultural` argument.

---

Rahul, it`s clear that you know this stuff. What do you think we should or can do, other than people learning an additional script, nastaliq?

rahul:

I wonder if we are talking semantics here. When I think of grammar, I generally think of the sentence structure, for example, placement of nouns, verbs, subjects, objects, etc. and not the difference between hindi maatras and Urdu zer/zabar etc.

Khammy:

It is a matter of spoken and literary languages. I think of Urdu and Hindi as a continuum, with a rich variety of vocabularies. On the one extreme is the Sanskrit vocabulary and the other extreme are Persian/Turkic/Arabic vocabularies. At the Sanskrit end of the literature, you get Hindi like Kamyani, which only those who have learned Hindi literature can fathom and at the other end, you get Urdu, like some Josh and Iqbal poems, which only those who learned Urdu literature can understand. Remember that even those who call themselves Hindi or Urdu speakers will not understand those literary works in their respective tongues. On the other hand, there is a huge big middle of the continuum where the two languages converge; you may call it the spoken middle.

Re: # 79, khamy1,

Yaar, as Kaal has addressed you in his first post you are a real `cheat`. First you wanted me to `explain` Josh Saheb`s poetry and now you want to extract from me all the knowledge about the intricacies of languages. It is beyond your capacity to pay for all this, my dear!

Yes, I do realize my mistake about the SAUDI script though. It has skipped my mind and still not coming. Could you tell me it`s correct name, please. Off course, if you could afford it free of charge.

Samar

Re: # 82

naskh, nastaliq or shikasta, take your pick...

samar1982

Two points for your consideration.

1. For some (possibly completely inexplicable) reason I have this image of you as a ``young kid`` (which to me means, someone 23-24 years of age). I might even have addressed you as such (only affectionately). If I was and am wrong, apologies.

2. Khamy1 is a wonderful person. In time you might get to like him as much many of us do. Of course, that doesn`t mean he won`t try to beat up on you when he feels like it. :)

You and rahul are conducting this debate at a very high level. It`s a joy to sit back and learn from you two knowledgeable folks. Thanks for some good reads.

dost , grammar is what you say, and what I say too.The reason why what I say I think is important, I have explained in other interacts.
jang , I am in awe of your felicity in using matrimonials as a general purpose crystal ball ;to analyse any and every social phenomenon. As for the other point, I am not really ``afraid``,but just resisting because it is not directly concerned with our current topic ,which is linguistics.
samar, ``OK! How dare you think after 60 years of independence genuine Urdu/Hindi poets could be counted on fingers? ``
Relax, bro.You are losing it now. ``Urdu/Hindi``, you said? When my whole point on this board is that its ``Urdu,Hindi`` not ``Urdu/Hindi``.and why did you weasel out of khamy1`s post? Dont you think you owe an answer to yourself, if not to anyone else? Finally, I genuinely appreciate your attempt to get to me.

kaal,
``The word `language` does not mean the same in the way you two use it.``
I have tried to explain.Maybe its still not clear.anyhow....
``What do you think we should or can do, other than people learning an additional script, nastaliq? ``
First step is to realize and accept the current position,regardless of what the history may be.
I think, there is some unconscious ideological commitment , which causes some of us to stick to this ``one language two scripts`` formula.I have no idea what it is.Perhaps it is the ethos of the ``Ganga Jamuni tehzeeb`` that some of us have.But it should be remembered that Ganga and Jamuna are two separate rivers.We can take the best from both, but they can(should) never be thought of as one river.
But anyway,I dont see any shortcuts.
I have tried to think on the lines of , if Hindi can be expanded to accomodate arabic/persian influence; but that is too tacky a solution and full of confusion.You can write hosh-o-hawas, but you cant use that construct with hindi words.It just wont feel right .
The only way to save Urdu is to recognize it as a separate language.
I am too lazy right now to think about how the social and political logistics of how such a realization can be brought about.What do you think?