An Untouchable Apology

satya11, Thanks and wish you and fellow chowkies and chowk staff the same!

Ref swarrier #203

[MS Subbulakshmi and M L Vasanthakumari were Isai Vellalars, not Brahmins.]

Oh puhleeeeze! Isai Vellalar is a designation used by Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion to hide the fact that he is a descendant of devadasis....as were MS Subbulakshmi and M L Vasanthakumari. But MS and MLV had talents that were nurtured by the brahmins and in fact both married brahmins and were fully accepted as brahmins. Whereas Muthuvel Karunanidhi (why is he using his ``Father`` Muthuvel`s name instead of his mother Anjugam`s name as his initial as he really should since the ``Father``, in the absence of DNA tests, is unidentifiable?) will forever be treated as the low-caste f@%*er that he is.

[By the way I`m looking for a new copy of the Madras Quartet by Indira Menon. Is it still available in India or is it out of print?]

I checked the bookatore at the Madras Music Academy and the book is still available. Send me your address and I will mail you a copy. My e-mail is: harimau1947@hotmail.com.

Hi Chowkies,

Wish you all a very happy new year -2007.

Re: # 256
We both seem to agree that, through affirmative actions or otherwise, lower castes would be moving upward economically and socially.

I also agree to the points you make in last para of your post.

According to you, this would eventually lead to persons castes becoming irrelevant.

My point is caste system is the root cause of this entire problem. And we should focus on getting rid of it. By affirmative actions or any other social arrangements by any groups, we will be successful in breaking the castes barrier to a certain extent only, but this by itself will not make castes irrelevant.

You say, getting rid of castes system is unrealistic and we will have to wait an eternity.

I say, this is very difficult to achieve and will take time, but is not unrealistic. I am optimist, I already see many people rejecting castes.

The Swamiji incident, was to give an example of how, economically successful does not always guarantee social acceptability, and reinforces my view that caste system should go away. I narrated the incident as it is. And I would not comment on what family could have done and what not, as there are many other factors unknown to me.

Re:satya11#246

[..They have learnt their lesson. Now they will never invite a Swamiji, nor do they go to any ‘satsangs’. This happened in a big city and a decent locality....]

Satya, if you want upper caste hindus to forget about caste and accept lower caste people as their social equals, you will have to wait an eternity. People`s identity is defined by their caste in India, in spite of all the protestations to the contrary. This is true not just for hindus but even for muslims and christians. Just look at how HD was talking about his wife worrying about N and N+Delta caste!!

Here is what this family could have done. It could have designated someone within their own caste as a ``Swamiji``, brought him over and conducted huge satsangs. They they could have made some charity contributions to forward castes as an act of socially accepting the forward castes!!

My point is very simple. Castes will never go away on their own. However, the constitution of India coupled with demographics, provides lower caste people with the opportunity to get their act together. That means they can take over political and economic power and improve their lot through education, employment and enterprise (via affirmative action or otherwise). Then they should form their own alternative social arrangements. Forward caste people have no choice but to accept this situation and cooperate or become irrelevant. When Laloo Prasad Yadav exercises his commands, brahmin officers in the railway jump up and down and listen to him, right? If you wait for brahmins to respect Laloo Prasad Yadav out of kindness of their hearts, forget it. In other words, you want social acceptability? Go and grab it, my friend. Get education, get money, get power, kick some forward caste a$$ (figuratively of course!!) and get them to respect you. You will see how easily the equation can change.

Re:HD#243

[...Ok, ranjit, start shooting :).....]

HD, if you claim that a crow is white, there is not much left to shoot at. :-)

As per your theory, Saudis, Egyptians, Iraqis and South Indians are the same people. That means South Indians are semitic people!! What can I say to such a claim?

Also you claim that aryan mixture occured gradually without conquest, yet somehow we have this varna based caste system that morphed into occupation based caste system. If it was evolutionary as you guys are claiming, can you explain how it was universally applied in the same manner all over India? Desis can hardly agree on anything from Punjab to Tamil Nadu, but somehow without any central government or bureacracy, people all over India spontaneously adoped the same, identical caste structure, such that we have brahmins in Kashmir, Tamil Nadu or Bengal!! Must have been the one and only time in our history that all the millions of people in India got the same identical dream at night!!

Anyway, lets just agree that we are all descended from Africans and leave it at that!! :-)

harimau, I wasn`t generalising off course.

There are good people and also megalomaniacs and nuts of various hues in all castes and religions.

You might possibly be mistaken if you think today people respect you for the sole reason of being a brahmin.
Maybe 50 years ago, but not today.

They probably respect you for your skills, your wealth and your acheivements, which you mistake for `caste respect`.

Ref HD #249

[The brahmin will eagerly tell the white foreigner how he/she is `so superior` back home. The white man will smile indulgently, all the while thinking `what imbeciles`.
And the brahmin is so happy with that smile!]

A true brahmin does not do that. Like me, he will treat the entire world as beneath him.

It is surprising what that does. People from every walk of life recognize me for the brahmin that I am, be it a fortune-teller with a parakeet on the beach at Chennai, a hotel owner in Karaikkal, a fellow customer at a restaurant in Pondicherry or a hotel manager in Chidambaram (all recent incidents). Even when I travel in North India where I don`t speak a word of Hindi.

Brahmins have no inferiority complex with regard to white men. They are all `mlechhas` to us, lower than the People of the Fifth Varna. And about the same level as Muslims and Christians and people of other Faiths.

HD,

Funny, tragic, and true...Hope we will leave our children wiser than our parents left us in this regard.

kaalchakra, if you`ve lived in India you must know.

Its not only caste-A oppressing caste-Z, or caste-M over caste-N.
It goes to fine levels. caste-N and caste-N+delta

My dear wife complains that Mrs L. is always ordering her around at get-togathers.
She feels its because Mrs L.s caste is a small delta over her caste.
I tried telling her its probably because Mrs L. is a bit bossy by nature and you`re submissive.
But no avail. She feels in her bones, its the delta.

Then sometime ago my wife was looking (surfing) for a suitable groom for a relative of hers. She came across an adv. from a family we know, who`re a small delta below, caste wise.
In the adv, they had specified the same caste as her.
This shocked and offended her greatly, much to my consternation.

Needless to say, this kept me amused for a few days :)

HD

Yaar, HD, I truly don`t believe that happens, but does it? I mean, have you yourself seen this shyt occur? (It very well may: Satya`s anecdotes are appalingly real. So one wouldn`t put any kind of foolishness past us).

satya11,

Yes, how many hundred thousand times has this kind of incident been repeated all over our poor country.

We have become a joke among other nations, yet how proud we are of our casteism!

The brahmin will eagerly tell the white foreigner how he/she is `so superior` back home.
The white man will smile indulgently, all the while thinking `what imbeciles`.
And the brahmin is so happy with that smile!

Re: # 247

And Sir, they preach love, compassion equality at these satsangs.

Satya

``a powerful forward castes group conveyed to him that they cannot come for ‘Satsangs’ in the their house.``

Dammit...this kind of stupidity one saw twenty years ago in our village. That happening in a city in this day and age is extremely depressing...:(:(

Re: # 242
When discussing about caste issues, too much emphasis is placed on reservation then on social acceptability.

Our leaders are focusing more on affirmative action, instead on focusing on correcting the religion itself. Caste System is the root cause of problem.

Affirmative action will not solve caste problem, even if it continued for another 200yrs.
I don’t think all caste will ever become equal. I don’t think there will be a time when every section of society gets equal opportunity and therefore person’s caste would not matter. The only way we can have equality is to get the castes out of Hinduism. This should be our main focus. I predict a very dangerous outcome of current caste based politics, if it continued without any improvement in social acceptability within castes.

When a low castes converts to Christianity or Islam, it is not like he is landed with some great job, but because his is been given a promise of social acceptability. Christian missionary have got this right, where as our Hindu leadership do not seem to understand this, sadly even after so many years.

Reservation does not play any role in tainting low castes. It is the casteist attitude.

Even if a low caste group were to become economically successful without the help of reservation, castiest attitude do not change.

A hard working family of low castes, I know off, have become rich because of growth in their business. None of their family members are beneficiary of affirmative actions. They are not highly educated people, and are content with running their business.
5yrs back they had invited a popular Swamiji from our city for ‘Satsangs & Ram-naams’ (Religious gathering for prayers). The Swamiji was suppose to stay for 3 days in their house. He was given lots of gifts & dakshina, and was treated very well. After staying for a day, the Swamiji left, saying that a powerful forward castes group conveyed to him that they cannot come for ‘Satsangs’ in the their house and therefore, do not want Swamiji to stay in their house. It was a big time humiliation for this family. They have learnt their lesson. Now they will never invite a Swamiji, nor do they go to any ‘satsangs’. This happened in a big city and a decent locality.

Questions for those people who support castes system in Hinduism –

1) What is benefit of caste system?
2) With caste system in place, how can we achieve equality among people?
3) Who decides who belongs to which castes?
4) What problems do you see if Hinduism is caste free?

Re: # 243

Good points... especially the one on daitya and aditya...