An Untouchable Apology

Ref paulose #145

[Yes! Your overwhelming support makes me wanna go and make India a 100% Christian Nation today!!! And I will go to every corner of India spread the gospel of Jesus Christ and make all your wishes come true.]

You are likely to be succesful in your endeavors. After all, most of the Masanamuthus, Bhagwan Dases, and Kunhikrishnans think that if only they get a college degree they will actually have an education and are following the Brahmins into Western-style education a century after the Brahmins started doing that. Folks like you of the Christian and Muslim persuasion have taken this apeing to the next level and are actually copying the behavioral patterns of Europeans and Arabs respectively in religion and personal lives too.

``Monkey see, monkey do`` fits you guys to a T. No wonder Tahmed32 calls you all macacas. I am inclined to agree with him.

Ref paulose #145

[Yes! Your overwhelming support makes me wanna go and make India a 100% Christian Nation today!!! And I will go to every corner of India spread the gospel of Jesus Christ and make all your wishes come true.]

While you are at it, would you tell them the story of how the Portuguese thought the Mar Thoma Church followers to be heretics and in fact captured a new Metropolitan of the Church sent to India by the Patriarch of Antioch and burnt him at the stake in Goa after subjecting him to the tortures of the Inquisition?

Ref paulose #145

[Yes! Your overwhelming support makes me wanna go and make India a 100% Christian Nation today!!! And I will go to every corner of India spread the gospel of Jesus Christ and make all your wishes come true.]

Do you actually HAVE to import Jesus, Mary, Joseph, etc., from the Middle East?

There are a lot of unwed mothers in India who are disclaiming any carnal knowledge. Could we have a Maragatham as your next Mother of the Son of God? Also, camels are not native to Kerala and it will be a strange sight when the Three Wise Men ride through Kerala looking for an unwed mother and a newborn baby. Can we substitute elephants for camels?

RE- #142 by harimau

I am really overwhelmed with all the thanks that you are giving me.

OK. OK. OK. I accept your whole-hearted thanks.

I always knew you were a good taker of gifts but did not know you would thank me so much. And you have’nt given me anything back yet? That’s alright. You are not only NOT a Christian but also a Brahmin. I forgive you.

You are a Naughty boy. And I am a little annoyed. There is few more hours to go before Christmas and you’ve already opened your presents !!!

And tho I want to just put you upside down on my lap and spank you, I am gonna leave you alone this time because you are just a little cutie-pie.

Harimau, you are my new BFF. Hugs and Kisses

Everyone here, please treat Harimau gently.

You know my Santa bag was over-flowing with presents for you but I just did want to give it all. Sometimes giving a lot of presents make you more of a Grinch than Santa. Don’t you agree?

I know, I know, I know – now you want to know if I am going to go on my conversion missions to tribal areas of India again?

Yes! Your overwhelming support makes me wanna go and make India a 100% Christian Nation today!!! And I will go to every corner of India spread the gospel of Jesus Christ and make all your wishes come true.

Thanks for all the love and support. I am overwhelmed.

Bye. Bye.

Ref teshah #117

[dost-mittar

``I agree with you that, collectively, we upper caste hindus should apologise for the behaviour of our ancestors in practising untouchability.``

Excuse me dear DM, this is your ego speaking ``we upper caste hindus``. It reminds me of `Hindu paani` and `Muslim paani` at the railway stations in the prepartition India. Interestingly, there was no Sikh or Christian paani.]

You have to understand something.

In the hierarchy, there are Hindus (Hindus generously include Buddhists, Jains and Sikhs in this category), and then there are those who belong to other religions.

If there was no ``Christian paani``, that was because the Hindus figured that Christians are reasonably okay.

``Muslim paani`` indicates that Muslims are the dregs of society that Hindus won`t have any truck with.

[It was only the establishment of Pakistan which put an end to this silly practice. What is the position in India now I don`t know.]

It is just that ALL the paani in Pakistan is ``Muslim paani``. So there was no need for two different paanis in Pakistan.

As to the situation in India, I would like to refer you to the incident at Godhra. Hindu pilgrims were accused of drinking tea and eating samosas sold by a Muslim vendor and not paying him. So at least there is no ``Hindu chai`` and ``Muslim chai``. It has been a while since I travelled by train so I am not current on the ``paani`` situation. However, I will update you as soon as I get an update from recent train travellers.

satya11

``it would create lot of problem and more conflict``

Real progress occurs when people voluntarily take steps to go beyond the present. On their own initiative, of their own goodwill.

Obviously, in any such endeavor, some people will join in early, other will not, or take time to get on board! Yet, a beginning would have been made.

We have now ruled over ourselves for some sixty years. There is no reason to remain frozen in time as we did for over a thousand years.

Let some people take the lead. Then others, once they have considered matters some more, can freely decide whether they are ready to do the same. And we will then accept their decision as a sign of our dynamic pluralism.

That way everyone feels respected AND we get to make the necessary progress as a people.

Ref paulose #121

[Everyone knows Muslims and Christians together form close to 50 % of Kerala population now. But what most people don’t know is before British consolidated their hold on Kerala, around 1792, the population of Christians (the Syrian Christians) was less than 5 % and Muslims about 5 - 7 %. Today Christians are 22 % and Muslims more than 25 %.]

Ever heard of birth control, you mufukkas? Oops, banned by the Church. So go ahead and screw your brains out; the next generation will be starving. Ever heard of Malthus? Nope, that is NOT a typo for ``Mallus``. Check out Malthus on Google.

[The reason being Malayalis are generally smart....]

So, here is the standard joke about Malayalees in Tamil Nadu: There was this Malayalee who was travelling by train. After a night on the train, the travellers discovered that the Malayalee`s suitcase had been stolen when they were all asleep. However, the Malayalee was non-chalant about the loss of his suitcase and said, ``Thaakkol ivada undallo!`` (``But I have the key with me!``)

[....... and the low castes found self-respect in Christianity and Islam and converted to these religions in large numbers and pulled themselves and Kerala up.]

Let us see. You guys claim that the Apostle Thomas landed in Kerala in 52AD and all you could show for 1900 years of Christianity was a measly 5% of the population?

Christianity pulled Kerala up? Hey, how about the Philippines? Do you think Christianity pulled the Philippines up? There are no Hindus there, man! The Philippines ought to be like the United States it it was all due to Jesus F. Christ. I think the Filipinas live mostly in slums and working as sanitation workers and sex slaves in the Middle East. That is what Jesus F. Christ brought to the Philippines. That, and a no-no to birth control. Yep, the greatest contribution that the Church could make to the world at large is a population boom. And I am definitely NOT including the illegitimate children fathered by Christian priests here.

[And now Kerala leads India in Social Indicators like high literacy, low infant mortality, low birth rate, longer life, etc.]

Yep. And in Communism and in unemployment rates. You conveniently forgot the last one. A cancer on Indian society!

By the way, the State of Travancore and Cohin used to import a large number of TamBrahms as teachers so thank me if you can read and write. My granddad was a schoolteacher in Quilon and then in Trivandrum. I have other relatives who are setled in the southern half of Kerala whose grandparents went there as teachers.

You Unnikrishnans and Krishnankunjus were about the same level as the Masanamuthus of Tamil Nadu when it came to literacy till the 1960s.

[In present day Kerala it is an accepted fact that being a Hindu is not the most kosher thing and Muslims and Christians are running the show. Most Hindus are apologetic about being hindus. In fact Hindus in Kerala, especially Nairs and Ezhavas, are under attack from
everywhere especially from the Brahmin communities from outside like Iyers, Pardeshi Brahmins and Nambudiris. That is why I am just here to just set matters straight and defend them. And though RSS has fairly good presence no real Malayali hindu communites
like Ezhava or Nair would dream of voting for BJP. Only votes BJP gets is in Palakkad area where the migrant Iyers live.]

The only Hindu apologetic about being a Hindu and remotely connected with Kerala is Sadna on Chowk. The rest of us look at the totally screwed up state of Kerala and are wondering when the US would provide India with neutron bombs so that we can kill off riff-raff like you without spoiling the environment.

[The so-called Kerala Iyers in Kerala go out of their way to say they are from Kerala but
they are definitely not real Malayalis , I can tell you that, because of their innate casteist bearings which is very evident here on this forum.]

I am a TamBrahm, not a Palghat Iyer. And Palghat Iyers are migrants from Tanjore district, and we generally don`t marry them either! (Both the Palghat and the original Tanjore variety.) There IS a caste hierarchy within the brahmin community and I intend to retain my superior position in that!

[It is generally accepted that it was only because of Nairs, who were in power, that the Iyers felt welcome and at home in Kerala after they were kicked out of Tamil land, and they have prospered in Kerala. So it is very surprising to see when I saw an Iyer guy here trying to slander Nair people here with half-truths and insinuations. Anyways you cannot expect more from Brahmins who introduced caste-system into Kerala and divided a whole people.]

Again, no idea of what happened in real-life but that is what one can expect from a man brought up to believe that all of a sudden Mary hatched a baby without a man`s help.

Iyers were invited to come and settle in Palghat because the local Namboodhiri brahmins got a bit too uppity for the King`s tastes. Nobody kicked any brahmins out of Tamil Nadu. There are still plenty of brahmins in Tanjore district ready, willing and able to supply additional brahmin seasoning for the insipid Kerala society.

At least the immigrant Iyer-men figured out the low morals the locals and entered into publicly known extra-marital affairs with the malayalee women. The Namboodhiri brahmins wouldn`t do it so it wasn`t the Iyers who imported the caste system into Kerala.

**correction**

Read ``Brahim`` as ``Brahmin``..

harimau:

It is interesting to note that you are assigning (not even speculating) idols to me (or people like me) without myself making any such claims. You can find desirable and not so desirable traits in any person and ofcourse Periyar and MGR have many such traits. You are one fascinating case for studying the Brahim Ku-Klux-Clan syndrome..

Now a learning exercise

*******************************************************

These are Periyar`s words

I am human
I am a plain person. I have merely spoken out my mind. I do not say you should believe what I have said because it alone is certain. Accept such ideas as can be accepted, with the help of your reason, after a sound enquiry. Reject the rest.

Do not for any reason bestow upon me any traits that are beyond human characteristics. If I were to be considered divine, people will not inquire into my words.

I will not subject you to a restraint, in the manner of scriptures and ancient works, by stating that you should trust what I say, that my words are Apocalyptic; and that if you do not believe me, you will become atheists and go to Hell. If what I say is not agreeable to your instinct, knowledge, experience and inquiry, reject it.

Every one has the right to refute any opinion. But no one has the right to prevent its expression

************************************************

Ref satyamvada #135

[Harimau - By your moronic writings - you are living up to caricatures of others
about who you are. You write amazing nonsense.]

What I write is either historically accurate or articulates a viewpoint that needs to be articulated but is not PC (politically correct). F@ck political correctness. Sombody ought to change the basic premise of discourse and I am going to do it even if I have to do it single-handedly.

[Also - credit is due to Masanamuthu and soysause for their rational responses.]

Their responses are not rational responses but Rationalist responses. They believe that an immigrant Naicker from Karnataka is the Father of Modern Tamil Nadu. That is the sign of a Rationalist.

Of the two, Masanamuthu is slightly better. Soyaf@%*ingsauce is drunk on that immigrant Naicker`s anti-Hindu tirades.

Ref paulose #129

[Yes, I am trying to promote conversion from OBC and SC/ST religion to become respectable Christians. What’s wrong with that.]

There are NO respectable Christians in India.

You are a pathetic low-caste two-time loser who doesn`t know the hisory of India.

Father Constantine Beschi found how difficult it was to find sheep for the Lord`s flock in India. In his writings, he condemns the European traders, soldiers and settlers in India for their public drunkenness and their open liaisons with women of questionable morals. In fact, he writes that the brahmins wield enormous influence on the local population by their virtuous ways which Christians only preach. Despairing of ever creating a positive impression on the local people, he finally adopted the manners of Hindu brahmins, wearing the saffron robes of a Hindu renunciate and refraining from eating meat or drinking alcoholic beverages, even sacramental wine. Still, he didn`t find many suckers to buy his theory that Man cannot get rid of Original Sin except by accepting God`s commandments and the latest transmittal medium for the same otherwise known as Jesus F. Christ.

What you need is to watch the movie ``Marjoe``. Here is something about Marjoe Gartner:

{``You go into it as a business and you treat it like a business,`` says Marjoe Gortner, the curly haired preacher of Sarah Kernochan and Howard Smith`s long-unavailable Oscar-winning 1972 documentary Marjoe, now receiving a limited Manhattan theatrical engagement after a perfectly preserved print was recently discovered. The business to which Marjoe refers is the grassroots Pentecostal church-and-tent revival circuit that, by the age of four, his parents had him working as an ordained minister, fire-and-brimstone proselytizer, and all-around huckster. Forced by Mom and Dad to memorize sermons (under threat of physical abuse), shuck-and-jive at churches while dressed in Lord Fauntleroy suits lined with cash-ready pockets, and even perform a marriage ceremony before his fifth birthday, Marjoe—despite his early realization that the industry was driven more by currency than divinity—became something of a brainwashed Bible Belt child prodigy, an early tabloid-ready gimmick whose flailing hand gestures and Southern preacher verbal affectations (``I`m-ah, in town-ah, to give the Devil two black eyes!`` he froths in archival footage) made him akin to a living, breathing, scripture-quoting Howdy Doody. As he grew into a teen and his carnival sideshow appeal wore off, however, Marjoe (his name a combination of Mom ``Mary`` and Dad ``Joseph``) abandoned the biz, shacked up with an older, sexually experienced woman, and eventually embraced the burgeoning counterculture and a more vague, Zen-like spirituality.

Compelled by financial reasons to rejoin the revival circuit as a jaded adult, 28-year-old Marjoe enlisted Village Voice writers Kernochan and Smith to document the corruption of those who preach the Word, resulting in an all-access pass to both the limb-convulsing, tongues-speaking hysteria of Pentecostal sermons as well as the backstage greed of the men and women behind the pulpit. Its immediacy undiminished by its crude construction, Marjoe, in its juxtaposition of weeping zealots with holy men claiming their new Cadillacs are part of God`s will, captures the latter`s psychological manipulation tactics and the former`s willing complicity in their own deception. When not providing step-by-step details on such fraud, Marjoe (who used the film to launch a brief B-movie acting career) prances about like a Mike Jagger-Elmer Gantry hybrid, mixing his messages of Heavenly love with (in his view distasteful) warnings of Hellish punishment. In these sincere acts one can sense the man`s tortured struggle to reconcile his piousness with his dishonesty, an effort his African-American girlfriend seems unwilling to undertake when she scoffs at an interviewer`s question about Marjoe being ``a con man.`` And if the impact of their film`s behind-the-curtains portrait of religious deceit is now palliated by the past thirty-plus years of skuzzy televangelists, Kernochan and Smith`s sustained focus on their subject`s performances still results in a pathetic portrait of interior disconnect between authentic faith and cynical disillusionment.}

I am seriously thinking of going to one of these revivalist meetings these guys conduct in India, you know, the kind where they plant a guy with perfectly good legs in a wheelchair and at the appropriate moment when the preacher calls for people to accept Jesus, the guy screams that he is accepting Jesus and starts to rise from the wheelchair and walks unsteadily toward the stage to prove that Jesus cured him. Except that, I will be standing all the time, accept Jesus, fall down frothing, crawl to the stage, then declaim ``Hey Bhagwan`` and start walking normally again. That would be dramatic footage that you guys wouldn`t show on your televised proceedings but nevertheless ought to be instructive to the dumb shit that buys this kind of drama and embraces Christianity.

You are better off buying Revlon cosmetics and Ivory soap than Jesus Christ. When you check the statistics in the West, you will notice that sales of cosmetics and soap keep going up whereas the Jesus business has been on a downturn since about the year 1700 when the Europeans decided that they wanted religion out of their lives. Fortunately for unemployable Malayalees like you, there is the Church pouring in money for conversion. My friend Ranjan whose family has been Christian for 300 years or more, probably having been converted by Joseph Beschi himself and hailing from a town called Nazareth in coastal southern Tamil Nadu, disapproves completely of the in-your-face Christianity that paid hands like you preach.

[Unlike you guys we Christians are doing something for India. I have led 2 Christian humanitarian missions to tribal areas of Gujarat (Dangs) and Orissa and looking to go there again and save some more souls.]

You in particular are doing sh!t for India. Ranjan and I have gone three times in a year to tsunami-struck villages with European do-gooders to help the locals. I am leaving again next January 20th on another mission. Nobody is preaching a damn thing. The European guys (and women) work to build schools and community centers and Ranjan and I act as interpreters and gofers. In fact, the Christians whom we employ as laborers are astonished that the Europeans do not attend Church service on Sunday mornings and I am stuck in the position of explaining to the Europeans why the laborers want to slink off at 11 am on Sundays. And some of these laborers come from families that have been Christian for three centuries, having been converted by the Reverend Bartholomeus Ziegenbalg himself.

Even in rural India, I can attest to the fact that soap outsells Jesus Christ.

[From your handle it seems you are Tamil. Are you pissed because a Malayali Nair guy like MGR ruled your Tamil Nadu State for 10 long years?]

Actually, MGR is a Menon, a surname taken by those born out of wedlock to a Nair woman and an Iyer brahmin. Masanamuthu is not pissed at MGR ruling Tamil Nadu; MGR is his idol. And that MGR is a damn sight better than the Commie mufukkas who have f@*ked up Kerala since 1957 when they first got elected to the State Assembly as a majority.

[And he had Brahmin wives and Brahmin mistresses? Maybe that’s why Harimau Iyer is pissed off at Nairs. Now I get it.]

You really don`t know sh!t, do you? MGR`s last wife was Vaikom Narayani-ammal Janaki. That middle name Narayani-ammal is a dead giveaway indicating she was born out of wedlock, otherwise it would have been her father`s name. And in typical Malayalee fashion, we have Wikipedia stating, ``She was born to Rajagopal Iyer and Narayani Amma in the Town of Vaikom in Kerala State.`` Yep, another Iyer-man having his fun at the expense of the Malayalees!

Re: # 129

Try hard paulose, your are trying to mislead people with your little success. My community (belongs to SC), and other backward communities I know and live with them, have no interest in Christianity or conversion. You might find few adopting Buddhism, but Christianity, no way. Christianity, like Hinduism is a great religion, but the way you guys are promoting it is destabilizing the region.

I don’t think apologizing (as a group) by upper caste is a good idea. Instead it would create lot of problem and more conflict between upper caste and lower caste. Castism is not just followed by UC but is also followed within LC against other lower sub caste. So at what level of caste hierarchy apologizing should begin and where should it end. How will we identify the lowest of the lowest caste? Even the reservation has failed to reach these people.

There is no way anyone can justify castism. I think, BJP/RSS/VHP instead of focusing so much on Ram Temple, if they spent half their energy focusing on getting rid of castism from Hindu society. They would be doing great service to the nation and the religion.

There are fanatic/castist upper castes who feel that all their problem is because of dalits and reservation.
There are fanatic among dalits, who think it is their right to demand whatever they want, because of supposedly 1000 years of discrimination. Both this group should look at themselves and think rationally about the root cause of problem in their lives. Neither of them is helping Hinduism or Dalit. They are just playing into hands of politicians.

For dalits and poor, converion to other religion will not help. It will just create people, who talk about US/Canada/Saudi, but not about India and or India’s poor.

Government or Politician cannot solve the problem of Castism, but common people can solve it.

Here is a simple suggestion that I have seen works in breaking caste barrier. When doing family pooja or dewali or dushera, involve your friends and servents from other caste, not just members from your caste. Take their help in cleaning your pooja room, decorating Gods, preparing prasadam etc. Such inclusion will help breaking caste barriers faster than reservation.

There are many such things we can do to in getting rid of castism.

I am a dalit, I can narrate instance from my life about the social discrimination by some upper castes people. But there are many many more instances where I have taken help from UC people ( well, this is not at all surprising).

India or Hinduism cannot exist without UC or LC, we need each other help in breaking this caste barrier. Please, do not let your heart fill with hatred against each other. And just when we are starting to see economic progress and when progress is slowly reaching poor, please, do not let politician and our enemies divide our society.

Dost-mitter wrote:
My greatest complaint against the Mughal and other Muslim rulers in India is that they did nothing to make the local society more egalitarian, even accepting the Hindus treating them as Malechhas. The converts took the negative aspects of the Hindu society - mistreatment of lower castes, widows and dowry - to Indian Islam but left behind the more positive features of the society, such as acceptance of religous plurality.

Dost-mitter - sheesh so you have thought that the mughals were somehow `egalitarian` huh ? so you even had expectations eh ? Gosh - you need even more help than I had thought. You have no basic knowledge on most things but still pontificate. amazing.
Some of the most bigoted and discriminatory states is Saudi Arabia - verify if there
is marriage between various saudi tribes.
But of course, to people like you - pretense is more important than facts and honesty.
Contempt to you.

Harimau - By your moronic writings - you are living up to caricatures of others
about who you are. You write amazing nonsense.

Also - credit is due to Masanamuthu and soysause for their rational responses.

I have a feeling paulose is a troll. He appears to be someone who has read something about india but hasn`t actually lived there.

Ref paulose #124

Mallus are the same kind of riff-raff as the Bengalis with greater pretension to intellectual debates and lesser predilection to actual hands-on work, as if that were possible. But, yes, Mallus have proved that they can beat the Bengalis to the bottom of the barrel by the simple device of lifting the barrel up and crawling into the dirt underneath.

Most Mallus are sanitation workers in the Persian Gulf. Most Indians are sick and tired of these idiots whose first task is to organize workers into unions and go on wildcat strikes. No sane Indian industrialist will hire a Malayalee, not even just one. Thus all that these worthless scum can do is to look for jobs that can be gotten. Most run roadside tea stalls and are thus ``self-employed`` which gives them unlimited time for bull sessions with passers-by. When every nook and corner in India has been taken by these ``enterpreneurs``, they started looking for an ``export market`` for their skills. Fortunately for India, the Persian Gulf is geographically close to Kerala, needs cheap and compliant labor, and offered opportunities to Malayalees. By banning strikes and impounding the passports of migrant labor, the Arabs made sure that the frikking Malayalees did not get up to their usual antics of unionization and wildcat striking. Of course, the threat of public flogging, jail time and deportation for real or imagined violations of the law kept these idiots under control.

Once they Arabs figured out that there actually exist Malayalee Muslims, they started restricting themselves to Muslim migrant workers. The low-caste Hindu and Christian Malayalees (who are low-caste converts) are as usual chewing cud in tea stalls and on Chowk.

The Christian Mallus have one other advantage. Their females got trained as nurses and spread into neighboring Tamil Nadu and Karnataka. More recently, these nurses have been recruited by the hospitals in the US. Thus you will find that most Malayalees are in the New York - New Jersey area where the wives work in te hospitals and the husbands work in gas stations as attendants, having no worthwhile skills. Unfortunately for them, Americans do not talk politics nor will they take crap about American Imperialism from a foreigner who speaks Malayalam in the Roman script (listen to a Malayalee if you don`t believe me) so they are a sullen lot who go home and beat their wives.

No Malayalee has invented anything useful. Even Waste Bengal has an IT industry but no matter how lavish an IT Park they build in Kerala, no investor shows up to use it. This ought to tell the Malayalees that something is wrong with them. But even if you handed them a clue on a platter with watercress around it, an average Malayalee wouldn`t recognize it.

The only good thing the Malayalee does is to fatten the coffers of the Indian government by bringing in TVs, VCRs, gold ornaments, etc., from the Persian Gulf and paying customs duty on them. Just land in Bombay; when the Customs officials look at your declaration and notice that you are coming from the US or Europe, they disgustedly wave you through the Green Channel whereas every single traveller from the Middle East is put through body cavity searches to ensure they have not hidden a 36`` TV somewhere.

The bad thing is that these returning Malayalees have brought full body armor otherwise known as the shuttlecock burqa to Kerala. All of a sudden, you see little schoolgirls wearing an abaya/chador and graduating to the full burqa as they reach puberty, which usually happens at age 7-1/2.

The Vatican has found a use for the unemployed/unemployable Christian Malayalees. These get a scholarship to study at some theological seminary in Rome and then get sent back to India for missionary work. These are the missionaries who go to Arunachal Pradesh and convert the local yokels. You should see the ecstasy on the faces of these people as they leave Rome at the end of their theological studies; they are in seventh heaven since the last thing that happens is an audience with God on Earth.... er, the Pope. I have had the misfortune to spend an hour at the airport in Rome with them and several hours confined in a metal tube along with them, an experience I would not wish on Tahmed32 or Urstruly.

On the whole, Bishop Reginald Heber had the wrong place in mind when he said about Ceylon, `` Though every prospect pleases, And only man is vile.`` It fits Kerala better.