An Untouchable Apology

What Megasthenes the Greek (350BC-290BC) had to say about the castes:

The whole population of India is divided into seven castes, of which the first is formed by the collective body of the Philosophers, which in point of number is inferior to the other classes, but in point of dignity preeminent over all. For the philosophers, being exempted from all public duties, are neither the masters nor the servants of others. They are, however, engaged by private persons to offer the sacrifices due in lifetime, and to celebrate the obsequies of the dead: for they are believed to be most dear to the gods, and to be the most conversant with matters pertaining to Hades. In requital of such services they receive valuable gifts and privileges. To the people of India at large they also render great benefits, when, gathered together at the beginning of the year, they forewarn the assembled multitudes about droughts and. wet weather, and also about propitious winds, and diseases, and other topics capable of profiting-the hearers. Thus the people and the sovereign, learning beforehand what is to happen, always make adequate provision against a coming deficiency, and never fail to prepare beforehand what will help in a time of need. The philosopher who errs in his predictions incurs no other penalty than obloquy, and he then observes silence for the rest of his life.

The second caste consists of the Husbandmen, who appear to be far more numerous than the others. Being, moreover, exempted from fighting and other public services, they devote the whole of their time to tillage; nor would an enemy coming upon a husbandman at work on his land do him any harm, for men of this class, being regarded as public benefactors, are protected from all injury. The land, thus remaining unravaged, and producing heavy crops, supplies the inhabitants with all that is requisite to make life very enjoyable. The husbandmen themselves, with their wives and children, live in the country, and entirely avoid going into town. They pay a land-tribute to the king, because all India is the property of the crown, and no private person is permitted to own land. Besides the land-tribute, they pay into the royal treasury a fourth part of the produce of the soil.

The third caste consists of the Neatherds and Shepherds and in general of all herdsmen who neither settle in towns nor in villages, but live in tents. By hunting and trapping they clear the country of noxious birds and wild beasts. As they apply themselves eagerly and assiduously to this pursuit, they free India from the pests with which it abounds,--all sorts of wild beasts, and birds which devour the seeds sown by the husbandmen.

The fourth caste consists of the Artizans. Of these some are armourers, while others make the implements which husbandmen and others find useful in their different callings. This class is not only exempted from paying taxes, but even receives maintenance from the royal exchequer.

The fifth caste is the Military. It is well organized and equipped for war, holds the second place in point of numbers, and gives itself up to idleness and amusement in the times of peace. The entire force--men-at-arms, war-horses, war-elephants, and all--are maintained at the king`s expense.

The sixth caste consists of the Overseers. It is their province to inquire into and superintend all that goes on in India, and make report to the king, or, where there is not a king, to the magistrates.

The seventh caste consists of the Councillors and Assessors,--of those who deliberate on public affairs. It is the smallest class, looking to number, but the most respected, on account of the high character and wisdom of its members; for from their ranks the advisers of the king are taken, and the treasurers, of the state, and the arbiters who settle disputes. The generals of the army also, and the chief magistrates, usually belong to this class.

Such, then, are about the parts into which the body politic in India is divided. No one is allowed to marry out of his own caste, or to exercise any calling or art except his own: for instance, a soldier cannot become a husbandman, or an artizan a philosopher.

---

Philosophers are obviously the `Brahmins`.
Are Husbandmen the `Shudras`? and where is the business class - the vaisya (bania)?

`..speculate on how the caste-system might have begun`
#176
ranjit, good attempt my man!

Don`t mind if I try and poke a few holes here and there :)

`Aryan invasion`

The aryan invasion theory has been debunked left and right by people knowledgable in these topics. The theory was apparently propounded by europeans (English, German) in an attempt to promote `common ancestry` feelings with the enslaved and troublesome Indians, especially after the 1857 mutiny.

And yet, there might be a germ of truth somewhere in there.
After all, we do see among the general population, appreciably darker skin and less sharp features in TamilNadu and parts of AP, etc. Are they defeated people who fled south?
Why is brahui (spoken in baluchistan, Iran and Afghanistan) a dravidian language?

I hope you get a chance to read Spencer Wells (The journey of Man). This guy is a geneticist and explorer who`s project was to trace the routes of early Man from Africa to current places. The genes, he says, tell that the darker (southern) races of India came directly to India (by sea or coastal route) from Africa. The `aryan` branch struck a more northernly route into central europe. Became `white` and developed longer noses, both due to the cold (became aryan!) and a sub branch then found its way into northern India.


`Lower caste being militarily defeated people`

If you read the ramayan/mahabharata, both krishna and arjun were `darkies`. Not your garden variety shade, but pitch dark. So was draupati. In the ramayana also, rama is `brown skinned`.

Even the brahmin Veda Vyasa, the author of mahabharata who appears in his own book (a la hitchcock) was dark, and ugly...beat that for humility you authors!

I was often mystified why the AmarChitraKatha comics showed these characters having a `blue` skin color! Looks like the artist was hesitant to show these `holy` characters having `unholy` skin color (black/brown) :)

So, it looks to me that in those times, caste was not color-based or feature-based.

As an aside, if you observe a really,really dark person, at times you can perceive a bluish tinge in the skin color.
Maybe its an illusion. But I`ve noticed it a few times, and marvelled.

Re: # 207

Thanks Urvasi. I give u my explanation after seeing some other replies. As for tendency of northerners, I guess it lies in their desire to getting jobs.

U raised another topic for discussion i.e reservations for non-Hindus. I personally am against caste-based reservations but reservations shud be based on caste+economic criteria.

In any case this topic wud be addressed by Indians differently in the coming decades.

Re: # 205

You conquered nobody - you are the example of the conquered, the vanquished, the losers... sanatani, on the otherhand, actually survived the conquest, his faith[pathetic as it may be] and culture in tact... :)

Jangy,

Howya know this? Iyengars, I think are pure - like Parsis - genetically. Iyers in the meanwhile are mix between the natives and Central Asians. Iyengars had dolico-cephalic index similar to pure Persians whereas - like half-castes (a term to denote children of a white and a black parents) - Iyers have the best of both though they are identified as Brahmins.

Even among Brahmins, Vaidic (variant of Vedic but nothing to do with Vaidyas) type are at the apex of Brahmins. Iyengars are sober and hardly get into arguments. They are brainy type, mostly.

Iyengars are mostly Vaishnavaites i.e people with vertival tilak. Iyers are Saivaites (though panthiestic like most Hindus) with vibhuti put sideways i.e horizontal (i.e Saivites). If u notice closely, Lord Ganesa wud have horizontal ash marks on his forehead whereas he`d have vertical tilak in Maharastra and north India. This corruption of Gods (vertical & horizontal tilaks) is the handiwork of artisans and the priests. Most of the hoi polloi do not see these finer points in iconography & the sleight of hand of priests & artisans who work at the behest of priests.

In short, Hindus make many changes of their gods, which the people of other religions consider as sin.

If u are familiar with Lord Siva, he`s a nocturnal God. His vehicle is Bull. There`s a caste of beggers in rural South India who worship Lord Siva. They come for begging at mid-nights. It`s embarrasing for us but they dont stop coming at mid-nights. They stop begging before sunrise.

India is too myriad to understand! If u read the speech of Jinnah at AIML in Ahmedabad, he acknowledges the enormity of Indian divesity (after 1930, I guess). He changes this view after he tastes electoral victory in 1940s.

Re: # 200

Bandopadhyaya, Mukhopadhyaya, etc. have the suffix upadhyaya, so the suffix was knocked out and an acharya added in its place - ya=ja=ji/ee, so Bandopadhyaya =Bando+acharya = Ban+acharji, etc. Bhattacharya has acharya, so it became simply Bhatt + acharja=acharji/ee. These names were made easier to pronounce for the British masters during the Raj - as we all know, the Brits are notorious for not being able to pronounce any non-Anglo name, not because the Bengalis themselves wanted an abbreviated version. In formal discourse as in wedding invitations in Bengali they still use the long and correct forms. Incidentally, the Calcutta University degrees used to have Bandopadhyaya etc instead of the more commonly used Banerjee, so that used to cause a lot of confusion when people provided their graduation and postgraduation degrees for jobs and so on outside Bengal. Sufferers have even had to provide affidavits saying that Banerjee and Bandopadhyaya were the same name. I don`t know if the practice persists.

Don`t know why Gangopadhyaya became Ganguly -perhaps because there`s a South Indian (Kannada?) surname Ganguly, and it`s certainly easier on the lips to say Ganguly? And Gangoji might be too like the Muslim surname Gangjee - there`s a very prominent Calcutta Muslim family with that name.

Incidentally, as a Bengali I was first introduced into the intricacies and the complexities and the stereotypes of castes only when I began to live in North India. In urban Bengal itself the educated middle-class individual knows what his /her own caste is but that`s it. And this has been the case for more than half a century.

It`s usual that adopted children take on the caste of their adoptive parents - this goes right back to the Mahabharata - like Karna, for instance. A Sharma of my acquaintance was adopted as a young boy by a Srivastava, and has retained his Kayastha identity, not his Brahmin one. But now that there`s a built-in advantage in retaining one`s SC/ST/OBC status, at least among North Indians, some adopted children (and their adoptive parents as well, occasionally) prefer to remain SC/ST/OBC. Which just shows that reservations might have done a lot, but they`ve certainly deepened the caste schisms in society and entrenched privilege even further. That`s why affirmative action needs to go beyond reservation.

But what I can`t understand is why a discussion on caste should degenerate into one on the superiority of one religion over another. And can someone explain why Christian and Muslim converts demand the privileges of being Dalits if Christianity and Islam were really egalitarian?

great board and posts, esp from harimau, warrier, sanatani, sadna, mohar, satya and many others. looks like the urban conversation seems to be more about defence of family culture rather than caste. personally i love castes, dont mean to undermine the ill-effects but the bio-diversity is fantastically fascinating...i always ask folks what their caste (as PC as possible) is and try to get their perceptions of others and themselves.

one question: IMObervation Iyengars are more fair than Iyers and Iyers have thicker lips...is there any explanation for this?

Re: # 204

The only maadar I`ll be chauding will be yours you fcuking hindu urophiliac. You`re still hung up over the fact that your dark brown asses were conquered by us for centuries and by the Christians and that your own people are leaving your pathetic excuse of a religion for other faiths in droves.

Ouch.

Re: # 201

NTSYED,

u have become intelligent. Only a fool tries to defend the indefensible. So no point trying to defend this MURDEROUS, MORONIC and hateful cult spread by that RAPIST, PEADOPHILE MURDERER MUHAMMED.

So happy with conversions to Islam wait till anti-jihad starts your neighbors who have truly reverted will murder motherrrfookers like you.

MUSLIMS ARE MADARZAATS BECAUSE ISLAM TEACHES MAADARZAATGI

Sanatani

Re: # 186
Harimau
This may seem funny but I am not in favour of quotas, I don`t think it has solved anything. But that is only my opinion.

MS Subbulakshmi and M L Vasanthakumari were Isai Vellalars, not Brahmins.

By the way I`m looking for a new copy of the Madras Quartet by Indira Menon. Is it still available in India or is it out of print?

ntsyed -- have you been practicing psychiatry without license.....:).

now tell me -- have you been hearing voices from God -- looks like you have -- that is called `` a classic case of`` schizophrenia -- get it from one who has the license to practice medicine -- I bet u did not know that daddy daddy is another expression for grand pa.....:)

i have been away for a while but i must have written something truthful because the fascist sanatani has got his saffron pants on fire. why? because more and more hindus are converting to islam/christianity/buddhism all the time --isn`t that why one of the state govts in india had to try and change the law to make conversions illegal?!!!

****
how can he still defend casteism?

******

as for his second stupid question he is obviously ignorant of islam or islamic history. muslim women have been great saints too: rabia al basri to name one, sayyidah nafisa e paak to name another (who was from quraysh) and there are many others. there have been whole books written about them--eg the great andalusian sufi ibn arabi mentions a whole number of his female spiritual guides and teachers in his book `sufis of andalusia`. and umm al mumineen sayyidah aisha siddiqah was one of the most learned of all the companions and the teacher of many of the great scholars of islam.

****
btw if u swear again in your post either to me or especially to any islamic personality i will not bother to respond to you anymore.

A small diversion. Bongs are needed to think abt it. Non-Bongs are welcome with their comments.

Chattopadhyaya is Chatterjee
Bandopadhyaya is Bannerjee
Mukhopadhyaya is Mukherjee
Gangopadhyaya is Ganguly (why change like this i/o Gangorjee or Garjee?)

BUT

Bhattacharya is not Bhattarjee. Why Why Why?

I guess abt the origins of the first batch names to .....jee but I cant guess why there`s no short name for Bhattacharya. I asked all bongs abt this but nobody cud give me a reply :-)

Any comments please???

Re: # 197
[....Once an OBC, always an OBC...]

May be... why?... what`s wrong with being ``always an OBC``?... By the way - I am OBC...so don`t pull that stunt on me... :)

Anyway - my point was: legally, your adopted child can still claim to be an OBC, if he/she chooses to do so, for the purpose of claiming benefits under affirmative action...

Alternately - if an OBC person adopts a brahmin child, I am not sure what happens... I would think the child should be able claim benefit under affirmative action...

this further illustrates how silly this whole caste thing is and why we urgently need to move beyond this...

Re: # 40

Sorry about the late entry here. I think the Bengalis you`re saying you know of belong to at least 3 generations back, when people made a great deal about being kulins. Besides, there are Mukhopadhyayas etc who are not kulins, and Lahiris, Bagchis etc., who are. Incidentally, Bhattacharya is a title for a priest, and not a surname/family name by itself. Biswas is also a title, and there are plenty of Kayasthas and at least one Brahmin family with that title. There are even Roys, Choudhurys and Roy Choudhurus (zamindars) who are Brahmins, Baidyas, Kayasthas, as well as SCs. Also Mallicks. So one can`t generalize like that!
Also, there are plenty of kulin Brahmins who aren`t the ``Aryan``-looking kind you`re thinking of - perhaps you`re mixing up Bengalis with certain South Indian Brahmin communities? Where the colour of the skin and the sharpness of the nose guarantees upper-caste status? That isn`t so in Bengal. But your generalizations wouldn`t be surprising - there`s so much ignorance within India itself about our own communities. The lesson is, don`t generalize from knowing just a few people from any community. And don`t confuse Bengalis with any North Indian language/caste groups! The rules in Bengal are quite different!
As for me, I belong to a kulin family myself, but we stopped bothering about this more than 2 generations ago. And we have plenty of non-kulin relatives who are certainly not outside the pale.
Moreover, all ``caste`` communities in Bengali, whether Brahmin, Kayastha or Baidya, have their own little kulin groups. ``Kulinity`` itself is quite a flexibile label - if a non-kulin marries a kulin, and his son marries a kulin, and his grandson also marries a kulin, the next generation becomes kulin! And Mondols are usually what North Indians/Biharis call OBCs! This feet-touching of SCs of Brahmins belongs to about 70 years ago, I believe, at least in the urban/semi-urban areas of Bengal. Unbelievable today.
Agreed, though, that the ``caste no bar`` tag in matrimonial adverts often also have an added ``SC please excuse``. But certainly Bengalis over the last 50 years at least, if not more, have not bothered about caste - what`s been much more important is education - and money. Perhaps, ranjit, you aren`t aware that Brahmins aren`t the richest class/caste in Bengal - it`s the so-called OBCs of North India like the ``shonar benes`` (the goldsmith caste), and certain Kayastha family who made a lot of money during the Raj. As far as education goes, the most ``forward`` community is the Baidyas. Which says a lot for education removing caste distinctions.
The main point, however, which seems to have got lost in all the verbiage that has followed, is that most of us in privileged positions have been born to where we have because somewhere some time at least one of our ancestors has swindled, short-changed, hurt and destroyed his rivals, to whatever caste he may have belonged. And this was no doubt made easier if the person he was exploiting belonged to the dalit community.So if an apology helps in any way we should all do so. More important, though, is what we do to see to it that it never happens again. Affirmative action - not necessarily only reservation in schools and colleges and in jobs - is what is necessary. And let`s not trivialize the issue by going into things like ``my God is better than yours``.

Ref mohar11 #194

[Re: # 191

take it easy dude... if the adopted child is indeed OBC he/she should be eligible for quota...
because caste is determined by birth, not by adoption...]

So your position is: once an OBC, always an OBC.

And you are accusing ME of casteism? That is rich.