Get over the Victim Syndrome

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Re: # 234

Utterly respected Masadi,

Why were you chased out of faithfreedom.org ?

zeemax writes <<< masadi,

You didn`t answer my question in the last para of my #212. >>>

sorry, my analysis might lead to the same conclusions as his, against colonization and its effects that is, but in no way am I recommending an ``Islamic`` state, as the mullahs understand it, or Islamization from above which in the narrowness of the mullah`s Islam will equally culturally starve the people as appeal to the common denominator, what you describe as hedonism, is doing.

I am merely suggesting social justice and equity for the people as a precursor to them reaching their potential, to fulfill their destiny which is based on maximum freedom, to see which one of you is best in deed ``(Quran 67:2)

#232 by okhla99

Good. So now you`ve presented another hypothesis ``... that the Taliban/ Jehadis are evil, that the Mullahs are damging our socity/country and that the sooner these extremist mindsets are eliminated the better it would be for mankind & fro Pakistan.``

But this hypothesis has nothing to do with the 9/11 hypothesis, does it? It doesn`t prove nor disprove it, so it`s a fresh one and you can debate it seperately.

Then I take it you do not have any comments on the first hypothesis which is basically the US administration version, but believe it merely because of the untested bias contained in your second hypothesis, which in fact is precisely the reason why most people believe the first anyway (except for 36% americans, of-course)

:~)

No Dearest Zee.

I do not hypothesize at all. It is you who started with a hypothesis, eliminated inconvenient parts, moulded some half truths and arrived at the fantastic conclusion that 9/11 was a federal conspiracy and had nothing to do with muslim militants.

I unfortunately, belong to the vast majority of people who believe that the Taliban/ Jehadis are evil, that the Mullahs are damging our socity/country and that the sooner these extremist mindsets are eliminated the better it would be for mankind & fro Pakistan.

#230 by okhla99

Ok. So here`s your hypothesis:

Four young Arab men with a few hours of incomplete training on Cessna hobbyist aircraft alongwith 15 Arab accomplices after having a beer party the evening before and on the orders of someone sitting incommunicado in a cave in Afghanistan hijacked 4 wide-body jets with box-cutters and piloted them precisely avoiding Norad security through aerial maneuvers and caused the two world trade centre 110 storey towers to collapse exactly on their footprint in 9 seconds flat and a third one in the same manner without even hitting it as well as blasted a hole in Pentagon while coming in at utility pole level without even singeing the manicured lawn underneath and crashed a fourth jet in the ground without leaving any wreckage or furrows in the ground except a large straight down ditch and bodies or even parts of all passengers as well as the aircraft engines and fuselages etc totally evaporated in each of the four crashes without leaving a trace but however the passport of someone named Muhammad Atta was found in the debris quite undamaged.

That`s your hypothesis, correct?

My friend, if you believe this, then you better start running. Because if those guys could accomplish this, then they could accomplish far more after another 5 years of education. You`re in bad trouble.

:~)

Re: # 229

No Zeemax.

What would remain in such a situation would not necessarily be the truth. It would definitely be the ``last remains of the original hypothesis``.

#228 by okhla99

Yes. Fantastic, isn`t it?

When you take a hypothesis, and through the process of elimination, exclude the impossible, whatever remains must be the truth. Regarless of how unlikely it may seem.

Dear Zee,

This is from the same TIME magazine article you quoted in your #225.
<<
In world No. 2, al-Qaeda is not responsible for the destruction of the World Trade Center. The U.S. government is. The Pentagon was not hit by a commercial jet; it was hit by a cruise missile. United Flight 93 did not crash after its occupants rushed the cockpit; it was deliberately taken down by a U.S. Air Force fighter. The entire catastrophe was planned and executed by federal officials in order to provide the U.S. with a pretext for going to war in the Middle East and, by extension, as a means of consolidating and extending the power of the Bush Administration. >>

Fantastic...

The tighter we shut our eyes, the harder the truth will hit us

[....I generally find myself in agreement with most of your posts. ...]

you must be out of your mind.... in the Theater of Absurd - zeemax is the heroine... islamabad bob is the hero, ijaz gul is his sidekick and romair is the clown in chief... :)

#224 by okhla99

Time Magazine: Sep. 03, 2006

A Scripps-Howard poll of 1,010 adults last month found that 36% of Americans consider it ``very likely`` or ``somewhat likely`` that government officials either allowed the attacks to be carried out or carried out the attacks themselves. Thirty-six percent adds up to a lot of people. This is not a fringe phenomenon. It is a mainstream political reality.

#217 zee


This is amazing. Zeemax actually believes christians/Jews/Hindus were responsible for 9/11 and that the innocent Mohammad Atta etc were framed in by the administration.

Zee, I had creditted you with much more intelligence. I generally find myself in agreement with most of your posts. But this is one argument any one would find tough to swallow....

regards.

#217 zee


This is amazing. Zeemax actually believes christians/Jews/Hindus were responsible for 9/11 and that the innocent Mohammad Atta etc were framed in by the administration.

Zee, I had creditted you with much more intelligence. I generally find myself in agreement with most of your posts. But this is one argument any one would find tough to swallow....

regards.

#218 zeemax: That is indeed the focus on areas of common ground as opposed to areas of difference that I think we need more of on chowk. Of course, if it was only common ground we sought on chowk, most of us would probably become less frequent posters. So, I dont mind discussing areas of differences either, as long as we are not putting each other down as individuals.

Thus, like I mentioned, oil prices per se are not particularly important to most people in the US, e.g. (there was some survey which showed that most people would not care even if gas pump prices doubled). However, they are interest in the larger scheme of things given the impact of the environment of gas use. Thus, I think they should increase oil prices since this would ultimately result in in less damage to the environment (with the increase not going as additional unearned wealth in the pockets of arab sheikhs, but used to pay for the development of alternative energy sources or for poverty reduction). The way things are headed, we are literally jeopardizing the very ability of human life to survive in this planet. These are the broader aspects that I think are much more relevant - although not discussed as often - than middle east politics which are basically a storm in a teacup given that what is at stake. Trouble is we take our climate for granted - when the fact is the opposite.

#219 masadi: In other words, you stand exposed as a liar.

masadi,

You didn`t answer my question in the last para of my #212.

I would really appreciate your views on this, because it appears Syed Qutb`s views converge with yours, despite your outright dismissal of the Jehadis as marginal.

tahmed writes <<< You are a lier. If you prove otherwise, cut and paste where I have this generalization >>>

Dispicable fool, every time you attribute lack of development in the Muslim world to personal lifestyle issues you are ``generalizing`` based on stereotype. I don`t have to cut and paste anything, your posts are full of such bs when it comes to non western colored folk. And liar is not spelled lier, get an education...

Elixelx: Ad hominems and straw men don`t constitute arguments. Get an education and then if you can manage it, some morals as well...

#214 by tahmed32

The above is obviously not your world view. And that is fine. At least we share one thing in common - our love for Pakistan.

You know tahmed, I was really glad to read the above. You have correctly identified the one thing common even though our respective world views are poles apart. And that single common thing, is what motivates us to debate endlessly on Chowk. Otherwise why would anyone care? At the end of the day, I think more commonalities are perhaps discovered through logical interaction, and polarization reduced.

As I have noticed, the comments are getting more obnoxious by the day on Chowk. It could be because of the end-game being played in the US missions abroad which is not going well, and causing insecurity and anxiety to some people. But shouldn`t this outcome be food for thought instead of knee-jerks in a defensive/offensive reaction?

Anyway, thanks for your post. Polarization is the enemy. We must fight it.

#216 by okhla99

On the other hand if you are trying to say that perpetrators of 9/11 .... I must respectfully withdraw from the discussion.

I think that`s a good idea. Because if you found out that almost half the American population does not believe the US Admin`s version which you are parroting, you will still have to withdraw from the discussion but disgracefully.

Zeemax #205

You say
***How do you even know that Muslims had anything to do with 9/11****

I agree if you mean that Mohammad Atta & others were not ``true`` Muslims.
On the other hand if you are trying to say that perpetrators of 9/11 were Christians or Jews or Hindus or non-muslims, then respected Chachaji, I must respectfully withdraw from the discussion.

#209 Masadi; does your ignorance have no limit? does your denial have no bounds? the very poorest African-American wouldn`t trade places with you! YOU are what this article is criticizing; the ignorant denial of your problems while criticizing the problems of others, as though that will make your own situation better! Get a life, or better yet, get a job! Then you wouldn`t have time to blog your misconceived life onto us! Goy, are you a wimp!

#197 zeemax: I am not sure which post I wrote to which you are commenting.

As for ``US intentions``, what do you mean by that? Bush`s intentions? Barak`s intentions? The current Democrat controlled congress? the previous Republican controlled congress? Or the process through which intentions convert to policy and policy to actions? Start answering these questions and it becomes clear that just saying ``US intentions`` is way to simplistic to be the basis for discussing any political issue.

While I thank you for recommending that book to me, I must admit that Arab oil politics is not a topic of any particular interest to me. I consider oil politics to be an issue of parochial interest to arabs (who have become rich beyond their wildest dreams a few decades ago due to oil), but insignificant in the broader scheme of things in the world today - I am more interested in issues of parochial interest to Pakistan or the US, or in issues of broader concern (science, anthropology, etc.). Thus, the last few books I have read have been on US history, and I make no apologies for my love for the United States and what it stands for. Just as I make no apologies of my love for Pakistan and of my respect for the Quran.

The above is obviously not your world view. And that is fine. At least we share one thing in common - our love for Pakistan.

masadi #195: You write ``I don`t make stereotypical generalizations like you and your masters do about blacks and the rest of the colored world``

You are a lier. If you prove otherwise, cut and paste where I have this generalization.

#211 by masadi

Ok I see your point now. Thanks. I agree.

...an anarchy of production and consumption that is managed and forced on the rest of the world....

Yes that`s the larger picture and oil is a part of it. That is why globalisation in the first place.

A drive towards hedonism, to sustain the endless grinding of machines, manufacturing and selling leisure, and of-course disposable consumption.

But tell me, isn`t that what Syed Qutb had foreseen while at the University of Colorado?

Zeemax writes <<< From where does the system crisis arise? >>>

It arises out of the system in which the very (very...very) few control and dominate the resources and wealth of the planet. Such haphazard accumulation cannot survive without crisis. The system that ensures this accumulation is based on an anarchy of production and consumption that is managed and forced on the rest of the world....of which oil is a part. Reducing this entire gameplay to ``oil`` is reductionism of the worst sort, in fact a distraction from the main issues...

#207 by masadi

Sure. Taking physical possession will not end the system crisis, US has learnt that in Iraq. But at the end of the day, how do you say oil is not a factor? From where does the system crisis arise? It is certainly not civilizational, as Muslims to a greater extent are more or less culturally westernized by now, except for maybe the core Jehadis you term as fringe groups.

I`m sorry, but I don`t get to your point. Can you kindly elaborate further?

Okhla writes <<< Economic, technological progress is inevitable. Our younger college going generation shall ensure that >>>

Just like the poverty stricken African American community in the US, living in the most technologically advanced country in the world, yet not being allowed to benefit from any of it. Economic and technological progress of old didn`t benefit the ``Third World`` even as it benefitted the few that dominated the system, what makes you think the ``new`` will now benefit us? Huh dimwit, have an answer for that? Keeping people busy with ``technological progress will save you``, is an old trick of this elite, that has ``saved`` people only for one purpose, i.e. where it enhanced thier profit or capital accumulationj or power.

Our younger college going generation, and I see them everyday at one such institution are being ``factory processed``, moronized to serve the West and their multinationals as peons thinking that they have ``made it``. It is very sad but damn fools like you want to deliberately obfuscate the facts and keep them enslaved.

read <<< unfortunately for the (masses in the ) ME, all these things come at a point of confluence for the US elite > as

unfortunately for the (masses in the ) ME, all these things come at a point of confluence for the US elite in that region

zeemax writes <<< Then what is it about? >>>

The question is a ``chicken and egg`` kind of question- answer that question and you`ll know that its not about the oil. It is about system survival and crisis management, and preventing any challengers from emerging....unfortunately for the (masses in the ) ME, all these things come at a point of confluence for the US elite. Regarding oil what matters more to this elite are profits and not access. Nothing is preventing the US from physically taking possession of the oil fields in every country of the ME, that will not prevent system crisis from arising, in short that will not end US wars or threats of war....oil control therefore is no factor.

Masadi,

...and finally, it is not about the oil stupid...

Then what is it about?

#202 by okhla99

Hugo Chavez in Venezuela is doing a commendable job of simultaneously cocking a snook at and being the fourth largest oil supplier to the US.

Do you think Hugo Chavez is doing all that without Jehadi Iran`s explicit support?

``Rag tag Jehadis`` exploding bombs ... sniping/ beheading soldiers and journalists ... increasingly marginalised in the evolving scheme of things. Mindsets which seriously believe that 9/11 was justified because there were sufficient ``root causes`` will not survive for long.

Is losing limbs by a cluster bomb or beheading by a hellfire more moral than losing limbs or beheading with a primitive sword? How much do you know about the journalist you`re referring to? How do you even know that Muslims had anything to do with 9/11, and even if they did, were three thousand american civilians dead`s blood redder than the 650,000 dead in Iraq?

My friend, more efficient killing methods are no more moral than the primitive ones, as the object is to kill. Certainly the primitive ones are more terrifying because you can see the killer in personal capacity, while in the modern ones, it may be just an unmanned drone. Completely impersonal. However as it is, those primitive killing methods have the efficient ones on the run.

As for marginalised in the evolving scheme of things, marginalised by whom? It was just yesterday`s news that Karzai has announced a pardon for Mullah Umar and Hikmatyar, when there`s a $ 25 million reward on Mullah Umar`s head by USA. Do you think Karzai did that without USA`s approval? Instead of being marginalised, these guys have shown an upper hand and forced USA to retreat.

So think twice before making such statements against the Jehadis. USA vastly underestimated its enemy, and that realization is now dawning on the US administration.

Utterly and completely respected Masadi Sahib,

From your #203, it is apparent that you believe that the Iraq scenario has nothing to do with oil. Well, why don`t you ask some ``research scholars`` at your ``institute`` to enlighten you on this aspect.

It also appears that you do not have much confidence in the nation`s capacity to handle crises. You would rather prophesy doom. Well, the plague be on you. Your ravings & rantings are hollow. Your sermonising is devoid of substance.

Economic, technological progress is inevitable. Our younger college going generation shall ensure that. Share their confidence. Share their enthusiasm. Try interacting with them for a change.

And no, the rest of the world does not consist of ``dimwits``.

okhla writes <<< It is high time you opened your eyes to the fact that the world is changing. Duo Core processors and Vista have arrived, like it or not. There is zero tolerance for terrorists and Jehadi mindsets like yours. The ``root cause`` alibi does not hold water any more >>>

I wish you would listen to your own advice. You are busy applying the same rules of the old colonial game, of divide and rule (balkanization), and oil (resource theft) and applying it to a new colonial power that works in different, more evolved ways. And one of those ways of this evolved neo-colonial power is to construct and manage ``reality`` of which the Jihadi fringe is an asset to them so don`t expect them to become ``marginal`` anytime soon.

Then this ``dimwit`` writes <<< And Pakistan shall emerge from this ordeal more stable, more determined and well on its way to economic progress. >>>

Pakistan being part of the larger US global ``farce`` war, is nothing new. It did not emerge from the last one more stable or developed and will not emerge from them one any different. It will go from one crisis to the other, from one dictator to the next and to problems greater than any it has faced before given the time it is losing in controlling them. By the way Ahmadenejad has emerged by design out of the plans of this evolved neo-colonial power, which has done everything to strengthen him, Musharraf giving him a phone call is no ``third world`` revolution...and finally, it is not about the oil stupid.

Chacha Zeemax,

Please let me have the right to disagree with you on some aspects. On the oil game, we are in unison. On some other points we may differ.

I think, Hugo Chavez in Venezuela is doing a commendable job of simultaneously cocking a snook at and being the fourth largest oil supplier to the US. And without any Jehad or Bombings or beheadings.

Zee, Correct me if I am wrong, but I sincerely believe that it is economic strength which acts as a greater deterrent in this century. ``Rag tag Jehadis`` exploding bombs in market places or sniping/ beheading soldiers and journalists shall find themselves increasingly marginalised in the evolving scheme of things. Mindsets which seriously believe that 9/11 was justified because there were sufficient ``root causes`` will not survive for long.

And Pakistan shall emerge from this ordeal more stable, more determined and well on its way to economic progress.

But Okhla,

Your #198 is completely in varience with my #197 which you agree with. What gives?

While saying ``There is zero tolerance for terrorists and Jehadi mindsets like yours. The ``root cause`` alibi does not hold water any more.``, you forget, it is only the rag tag Jehadis fighting to resist the Oil confiscation scenario, which is the root cause, and succeeding. Not any Oil state.

USA tried to confiscate Middle East Oil through military agression, and failed. Now it is trying through balkanisation of large Muslim states as you rightly say. Pakistan is next after Iran and noone should have any doubts towards that.

#199 by okhla99

It is all the more important that Pakistan should ensure that its own self interests are protected in this dangerously evolving scenario.

Absolutely. I think Musharraf knows perfectly well what is going on, and is playing a very tough game. His phone call to Ahmedinejad (the first by any Pakistan ruler since ZAB), initiative in the offer to mediate in the Israel/Palestinian dispute (even though Pak has no leverage in the matter, but still display of goodwill), announcing willingness to recognise Israel diplomatically once the dispute is resolved, and threat to distance Pakistan from the war on terror after the Pakistan Checkpost attack by Nato, are all signs of a visible shift.

The strongest leverage that Pakistan has is China in this Oil game. Even though Pakistan does not have Oil, but it does have the energy clearing house at Gwadar soon coming online. I don`t know if anyone realises it but Gwadar is solely for Chinese energy interests.

As for USA`s designs, these are nothing new. My favourite and oft-repeated quote is what James Baker III had said to Inder Kumar Gujral in 1991 ``Oil is our very civilization, and we will never allow nomads to sit on it``.

Zeemax,

I think you have it spot on. The game is all about control over the oil resources. And this can, in the opinion of the think tank, be easily achieved by balkanisation of the Iran-Iraq-Pakistan region. Small states with oil resources can be ``managed`` effectively (the Kuwait model). Other small & medium states without any significant oil resources can surely be relied upon to maintain a hostile environment with constant mini wars amongst themselves. These regional conflicts shall continuously threaten to spill over into and engulf the ``oil holders`` which would be ``duly protected`` by the US. For a price.

And we have seen the de-facto fracturing of Iraq. The country is slowly drifting towards a Shia Sunni (and maybe Kurd) kind of a political & geographic divide. The possibility of a split up into smaller independent states (mutually hostile) looms large in the medium range future. It is all the more important that Pakistan should ensure that its own self interests are protected in this dangerously evolving scenario.

Utterly & Completely Respected Masadi Sahib,

It is high time you opened your eyes to the fact that the world is changing. Duo Core processors and Vista have arrived, like it or not. There is zero tolerance for terrorists and Jehadi mindsets like yours. The ``root cause`` alibi does not hold water any more. The despots and the dictators will fall, one by one. The world is moving on, not that it really matters to you cave dwellers. Pakistan`s economy has to progress and conform. IMF and World Bank are not enemies of Pakistan as you would have us believe. Pakistan`s Polity has to evolve into credible institutionalized frameworks. Models of successful countries can be adapted to our requirements.

Pakistan shall survive the current crisis, and in a few years it will occupy its rightful place in the comity of nations. Head held high. The young generation are intelligent, articulate and do not really care for archaic notions. This, in your exalted opinion, is blasphemy but then you know what your exalted opinion is really worth.

And no, the rest of the world does not consist of dimwits. Feroz or Tahmed or Freethinker or Hamidm or many others whom you casually dismiss as ``dimwits`` are many times more intelligent than your fellow residents of lululand.

tahmed32

Do go out and buy a book named ``The blood of the Earth. The politics of Oil`` by Dilip Hiro.

I`m sure you will change your mind.

USA has almost used up it`s own oil, and whatever remains has to be extracted with donkey pumps (hen-peck). While in the Middle-East, no pumps are needed. You just dig a hole and Oil comes gushing out by it`s own pressure. The cost difference is between $ 40 a barrel and $ 5 a barrel respectively. China and India`s vehicle per thousand of population is 0.10 now. If it even becomes 1 per thousand in ten years of further growth, you can imagine the increase in demand. According to Dilip Hiro, the fair price of oil is $ 200 a barrel even now taking expected consumption into account.

Now my own analysis of the movement in oil prices from $78 per barrel to $52 is due to Saudia and Kuwait increasing production at USA`s behest so USA can replenish and build up its gasoline storage stocks which fell to minimal due to refinery closures because of Katrina. Once these stocks are at levels to sustain USA consumption for a few months, Bush will widen the M.E. conflict.

I hope these facts lift some blinkers from trusting eyes of USA`s intentions.

The author writes <<< If Pakistan doesn’t have a welfare system for the poor, if the chaudhry of your pind abducts the innocent girl for his pleasure while the administration sits idly by, if public health care system is a sham, if numerous school systems are running in parallel out of which only one is capable of producing “winners” hence too expensive & out of reach of about the 90% populous, if the laws of the country are only enforced on you if your uncle isn’t a brigadier in the army; if your imam sahib asks you to go blow yourself up in the mosque down the road so you can be on the fast route to the promise-land, then how is that a doing of Jews and Christians? >>>>

A typical illiterate/uneducated methodology of looking at the surface and then generalizing to causation, without having any clue that public issues like the above cannot be fixed by personal responsibility because they have institutional causes that transcend the poor countries and have to do with global forces, as a result the effects of them are not geography specific, or religion specific or nationality specific. If Pakistan develops a social welfare system, a viable political institution that serves the people and that cuts into its other expenditures and stance that serves the West, surely your global institutions like the IMF and WB are going to make big noise, because doing such is part of their structural adjustment through which they circumvent the sovereignity of nations, they might even brand the nation ``terrorist``, if their indigenous occupation force, i.e. the Pak Military is somehow threatened, as they are itching to do with others that try to break free of their domination.

Further, the conditions created by such lack of basic necessities ensure that a climate where the lower thugs like your Chaudry of pind, or the mullah attains positions of power by taking over functions of non existant institutions, and the resulting chaos and crimes that are then detached from their roots and presented as bad cases of the national character as a whole. Even then, their crimes are much lower than the higher immorality that has become structured in Western institutions, that give a sanitized and flowery picture but rob and destroy entire countries. Look around the world scene and who is interfering in the affairs of every region of the world, who has military bases all over the globe and who dominates trade and finance while assigning labels to all that disagree with it. If you begin to understand that then you will understand that these petty effects you mention are caused by forces much bigger than any single country.

tahmed writes <<< you are bound by the chains of your own inferiority complex that you try to overcome by putting down others. >>>

Leave it to a unconditional slave of the West to tell others about their ``inferiority complex``. Of course pseudo-nut job- shrinks like tahmed will equate all calls for independance and freedom and self determination as ``inferiority complex``. They will also ignore the racism as social fact of the white elite as they force death and destruction and poverty among colored races while any attempt at breaking away from their system is termed by them as racism against whites. I don`t make stereotypical generalizations like you and your masters do about blacks and the rest of the colored world, I make scientific generalizations about the effects of the policies of those basta***, and their bast*** peons, the likes of you and Musharraf.

#193 so i sold my soul because i dont subscribe to your views about the ``evil elite``? in fact, i am a free man because i dont need to toe and political line and my soul is very much intact. and it is you who makes generalizations and racist remarks about the ``crimes of the white man`` who is the dimwit. and it is you who is a slave even without being put in chains - you are bound by the chains of your own inferiority complex that you try to overcome by putting down others.

so, like i said - your personal insults are as hollow as your self-important bs.

tahmed writes <<< your posts are as hollow when you are writing personal insults as when you are pontificating on politics.>>

people like you, who have sold their souls, their mamas and papas and their nation for half an ounce of white man sh** wouldn`t know anything about substance and ``hollow``/ Your ignorant dimwit is exceeded only by your lack of morals when you try to justify the crimes of the white man against humanity....

#191 masadi: you read my posts addressed to others even though you know i dont read your lengthy posts even if they are addressed to me. that makes you my campfollower. and only a sick individual would think that one would have ill-wishes to some individual in real life merely because of his obnoxious posts.

so call me whatever names you like - your posts are as hollow when you are writing personal insults as when you are pontificating on politics.

tahmed writes <<< #188 Greetings, my loyal campfollower. I hadnt heard your good wishes lately and was concerned about your welfarre. >>>

hypocrite

Re: # 185
BJKumar:

Whose photgraph is this?
What is this skinny, old half clad Fakir doing here on Chowk ? I he not yesterday`s man?
Do Indians know about him?

Kamath

#188 Greetings, my loyal campfollower. I hadnt heard your good wishes lately and was concerned about your welfarre.

tahmed writes <<< You are only kidding yourself when you try to promote the Divine Right of Kings under the guise of the Theory of the Social Contract. >>>

A typical hypocrites hypocritical response. What kind of social contract theory is it when you support colonization and dictatorship by the Western elite? What kind of ``guise`` is it when a whole country is brutally attacked, its people butchered and a puppet regime that partakes in revenge killings installed under the ``guise`` of democracy. The mother and father of all scum on Chowk is none other than you, tahmed. Be ashamed of your damn self.

further to #186, i see you had already confirmed in #182 what I wrote in #186. unable to resolve an obviously self-contradictory position, you chose to simply back away. i dont get paid either for pointing out your self-contradictory set of views - so you can hang on to them forever. .

urstruly #180 like hell you are ``forfeiting``. :-) you are merely taking refuge in sarcasm. facts and common sense run in terror before your blinding faith in mullahism.

The following is a special delivery exclusively for mian Hamidm2 (everyone else, please look elsewhere!).

Re: # 179

joshi mian,

.... that`s why i never rush to the bar ...

Darn :)

Re: # 181

Don`t be so upbeat yet, it was all plain old sarcasm. However, something has had changed. It is the awareness that I have an agenda and time is money.

A rare sight on Chowk, again! Seriously, congrats Urstruly (and tahmed32) :)

Since it`s so unusual, we should understand what has changed. Ustruly bhai, what did you believe earlier and what has changed now?

Re: # 176

This is an incredibly forceful argument, leaving me no choice but to forfiet.

Re: # 143 Hamid mian

History isn`t all that useless. You can always find some good lessons. For example, reading about Humayun, you may learn to be careful while walking on stairs. :)

Re: # 174

shahji:

you didn`t answer my question. do you believe in mo simply because a hindu believes in bhagwan joe?
or you really think that 7th century code of regulations would serve humanity to eternity.

... the ill wind is blowing

pretty soon sharia will be the law of the land in india, iit`s will be converted to madrassas, and instead of wagging their heads sideways and memorizing microsoft manuals, the head-waggers will be wagging their noggins back and forth while memorizing useless passages from the koran ...........

........maybe thackerey has a point and this evil needs to be nipped in the bud ..... arjun and bj have my full support if they want to don khaki knickers and go on a rampage in keralaland ...............

http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007 01 30 story_30-1-2007_pg7_1

#175 urstruly: you had written ``A social contract takes place between an authority and individual ``, and the quote you now provide to support that says ``A concept used in philosophy, political science and sociology to denote an implicit agreement within a state regarding the rights and responsibilities of the state and its citizens; ``

The significance becomes all the more obvious when you look at the origins of the term - The term Social Contract was used by Rousseau, Hobbes and Locke to challenge the theory of the Divine Right of Kings that prevailed at the time in europe. And which the Khalifa-wannabe`s (the mullah omars and fazloos), mard-e-momins and other scum of the muslim world would like to use to become absolute rulers beholden not to the electorate but to God. You are only kidding yourself when you try to promote the Divine Right of Kings under the guise of the Theory of the Social Contract.

So - like I said, you twist english terms just as easily as you twist the message of Islam to suit your preferences.

Re: # 168

Look my definition of ``Social Contract`` is consistent with that of White people, then how could it be wrong:

Social Contract: A concept used in philosophy, political science and sociology to denote an implicit agreement within a state regarding the rights and responsibilities of the state and its citizens;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Contract_%28disambiguation%29

[yes Rousseou has defined the term a little different but practiclly all around the world the term is defined as above now]

#67..netzenji..i did never say that you believe in mo...in fact quran explecitly says`` to you your belief to me mine``....
the problem however
muslims all over have commonality of quran but whether you worship sarsvati durga ganesh or some vishnu its not clear to me.i appreciate philosophy of some geeta and veda but i plead ignorence so should you about areas you do not know

THE INDIAN CHRISTIAN MARRIAGE ACT, 1872

Re: # 171

is there christian personal law?... AFAIK - ``hindu`` personal law applies to hindus, sikhs, jains, buddhists, etc etc... I am not sure if it applies to christians or they have a separate law...

Re : concerned1 #170
//afaik there is no ``Hindu Personal Law`` in India. There is ``Muslim personal law`` and
there is ``everybody else`s law``. //

Wrong! Personal law is based on religion in India. It’s just that personal law has kept up with the times for other religions.

Regards,

Faruk

urstruly,

[...The only other document that provides such autonomy to its citizens is the constitution of present day India where there is provision for Muslim and Hindu Personal Laws...]

afaik there is no ``Hindu Personal Law`` in India. There is ``Muslim personal law`` and there is ``everybody else`s law``.

Re: # 163

shahji

``Same way billions of christians believe Christ was born unlike you....immaculate conception no easy concept for you ...``

and millions of hindus believe that baghwan vishnu flies on a giant eagle.............

so ???

but please don`t tell me that you believe in mo`s story simply because christians believe that a jesus rose from the dead and went to heaven only to come back later on...

same stands for hindu beliefs too.

in the end none of them would stand a close scrutiny.

urstruly #166 ``A social contract takes place between an authority and individual as well as an authority and an interest group ``

I see that you make up your own meaning of english terms the same way you make up your own meaning of islam.

Re: # 163

shahji

``Same way billions of christians believe Christ was born unlike you....immaculate conception no easy concept for you ...``

and millions of hindus believe that baghwan vishnu flies on a giant eagle.............

so ???

but please don`t tell me that you believe in mo`s story simply because christians believe that a jesus rose from the dead and went to heaven only to come back later on...

same stands for hindu beliefs too.

in the end none of them would stand a close scrutiny.

Re: # 165

There is a difference between decrees and a social contract in their make up even though they are applied similarly during their application stage. A social contract takes place between an authority and individual as well as an authority and an interest group and there is a general free consensus; whereas a decree is one sided affair and an overwhelming number of people may not have consensus in it. After the Constitution of Medina was written down, there was a general vote (bayt) to obtain that consensus. I am unaware of any Roman or Greek law where consensus of subalterns was sought. May be there is one, I claim my ignorance.

As far as the specific clauses that you have mentioned, they are perfectly in accordance with the very first clause of the constitituion which starts with the statement that this ``contract is between believers and non-belivers, who together form one ummah i.e. nation``. One of the clause (probably 16th) grants judicial autonomy to the signatories to the contract. The clauses you mentioned thus are consistent with the autonomy as applicable to the belivers. I fail to see a moral or legal dilemma or ambiguity in it.

#160 by Urstruly

”As a matter of fact Constitution Of Medina is mankind`s first ever written Social Contract that took place between government and subalterns.”

The first constitution ever! What about the Athenian constitution and that of all Greek city states, how about the constitution of Rome and Roman law which continued to be practiced in the West till the eighteen century.

“The constitution is unique among all constitutions of the world that it gave judicial autonomy, based on religion, to all citizens.”

Not only religion it gave full autonomy to all the tribes as well. According to this constitution all tribes could do as they pleased among themselves. Beyond that it has gems like

12b- A believer shall not take as an ally against him a freedman of another Muslim.

14- A believer shall not slay a believer for the sake of an unbeliever, nor shall he aid an unbeliever against a believer.

#159 the Quran explicitly and repeatedly makes clear that in matters of religion an individual is answerable only to God. A contract, and this includes the medina contract, is an agreement between individuals. The medina contract therefore resides outside the perview of religion, unless you assume that anything the prophet did or say is part of religion - and that would mean considering him to be a divine being. Which amounts to committing shirk. Which is what urstruly does every time he tries to over-write the Quran with sharia, e.g.

#161 by Netizen on January 29, 2007 2:00pm PT
Re: # 154

``forget the social stuff, how in the world did he know that the earth goes around the sun and not vice-versa.......when galileo and copernicus wouldn`t be born for another seven to eight hundred years.......one almost gets the feeling that God was talking to him.......that couldn`t be, could it...... ``

not only that.............

he was the first human in space that too in his lungi, well ahead of yuri gangarin by thousands of years.......that couldn`t be, could it........

all praise to alla and her goat
`````````````````````````````````````````
Same way billions of christians believe Christ was born unlike you....immaculate conception no easy concept for you ...

Re: # 149
Unstruly:

Your pessimism is simply very depressing. If this state of affairs continues at this rate, in a matter of a couple of decades, the society will implode with disatrous effects not only in Pakistan but also touching adjacent countries. May be that is the reason why, my Pakistani friends don`t want to talk about these things at all at any time.

So I am going to take off for my cup of hot Chai. Wa Salaam.

Kamath

Re: # 154

``forget the social stuff, how in the world did he know that the earth goes around the sun and not vice-versa.......when galileo and copernicus wouldn`t be born for another seven to eight hundred years.......one almost gets the feeling that God was talking to him.......that couldn`t be, could it...... ``

not only that.............

he was the first human in space that too in his lungi, well ahead of yuri gangarin by thousands of years.......that couldn`t be, could it........

all praise to alla and her goat

Re: # 159

As a matter of fact Constitution Of Medina is mankind`s first ever written Social Contract that took place between government and subalterns. The constitution ended the 120 years old civil war in Medina among tribes and ordinary citizens. The constitution is unique among all constitutions of the world that it gave judicial autonomy, based on religion, to all citizens. The only other document that provides such autonomy to its citizens is the constitution of present day India where there is provision for Muslim and Hindu Personal Laws; a remarkable and commendable feat nonetheless.

158 by tahmed32

muhammed never claimed to have written a constitution. he claimed only to have relayed what he believed to be a message from God.

What about the constitution of Medina? That is called the al-dastur which the prophet wrote and is not part of the Quran.

#156 muhammed never claimed to have written a constitution. he claimed only to have relayed what he believed to be a message from God.

so it makes as much sense to compare muhammed with madison as it does to compare mozart with jinnah.

Now if you compared the founding fathers of pakistan with the founding fathers of the US - then you would have a basis for comparison.

this article makes no sense. pakistan issues are pakistan issues..what is the point of dragging palestine or other muslim countries in this? and does not pakistan also have non-muslim hindus, isais and ahmedis in them..so muslimity is not the issue.

personally i like ben franklin is hotter than madison since he is on $100 bill.

Re: # 154

romair mian,

...... we are not talking about slavery here, we are talking about putting in place a process that would have insured an orderly transfer of power - in this james madison was a better man than mo of mecca ....... if you want to talk about slavery, then abraham lincoln was a better man than muhammad who might have freed a slave or two but did nothing to abolish the institution of slavery which persisted in the place of his birth well into the twentieth century .............. on both accounts the man was a failure ...... tehsin will tell you that he did not grasp the very human concept of arete even though he claimed to be a prophet ..............

#151 by hamidm2

I am so happy to see that you have finally started paying attention to Socrates. I always knew there was hope for you.

hamidm2 mian #153: ``...... as long as you accept the fact that james madison was a better man than mohammad, i am okay with with your conclusion ..............``

...actually i don`t accept that.........i think madison may have been on the right track, but he didn`t do anything revolutionary......he was, at best a few decades ahead of his time......his group had slaves in the 18th/19th centuries......mohammad freed his and made them governors..........1300 years befor madison.......

........all i am trying to say is that, for his time, mohammad`s ideas were extraordinarily revolutionary........i have yet to see any other individual who was so far ahead of his time......he was ahead of madison in the 7th century!.....granted he may not have been ahead of where the world is today.......but he was pointed in the correct direction..

.....in fact, he was so far ahead, that there is no way an illiterate shepherd with little exposure could have thought up, and implemented all these things, when a thousand years later educated lawyers couldn`t do the same.......

forget the social stuff, how in the world did he know that the earth goes around the sun and not vice-versa.......when galileo and copernicus wouldn`t be born for another seven to eight hundred years.......one almost gets the feeling that God was talking to him.......that couldn`t be, could it......

Re: # 152

romair mian,

...... as long as you accept the fact that james madison was a better man than mohammad, i am okay with with your conclusion .............. it is only that we accept better work from people who get their instructions directly from god - unless you want to blame it on poor gabby who might have been a little high on peyote when he was talking to our man in the cave ..............

hamidm2 mian #143: ``it was your typical tribal powerplay with ambitious crrooks negotiating with goats and women as the currency of politics ............ i wouldn`t be surprised if omar got a few fast camels and some healthy load-bearing women as part of the bargain, in addition to the guarantee that he would be made chief bedouin after abu-bakr kicked the bucket ........... this kind of `transfer of power` still goes on among the incorrigible pashtuns today -``

this could be true.....but i believe this is what goes amongst congressman also.....this is what politics is....and the fact that such a process exists, where everyone can go around trying to undermine the other (as opposed to a smooth transfer to the king`s next generation) is an indication that some sort of democratic norms are in play.......

Re: # 146

tehsin,

``The Chinese, the Egyptian or the Indus valley civilizations had tremendous monuments, but no relevance to the present, whereas classical Greek culture continues to remain an integral part of any curriculum. ``

...... i know that you can`t add one number to another unless it has a dollar sign attached to it, but are you suggesting that the decimal system that my grandpa gopinath came up with in 2800 bc (2400 years before socrates) is irrelevant ? ...... and if we accept your dubious claims of ancestary, your forefathers invented the first numeral system and system of weights and measures around 3400 bc .......... and way before that, in 20,000 bc, the egyptians knew all about prime numbers - something you are incapable of understanding even today ...........

......... i know that you will come back and say that mathematics is not relevant and that socrates, who sat around playing with little boys while refusing to answer any questions, was more clever than gandpa gopinath ...... as far as i am concerned he was a pompous charlatan full of himelf ..... and what about your grandpa (or so you claim) hammurabi`s code of law ? ........... he wrote down all the answers 1400 years before your man showed up to ask more questions in answer to simple questions ..... and he he wrote it on stone so that his pet goat wouldn`t eat it and cause confusion later ........... as far as i know socrates didn`t write down a darn thing and we have to take plato`s word for it - it is kind of like believing that god actually said all that stuff in the koran ..........

#139 zeemax

You`re wellcome.

You see you`re missing the whole point.

Please, read my whole post again. GUNDA tAX is the illegal bribe which we have to pay for all these work done.

Just read my post again.....May be you`ll come to the point ..........

[[[So, You are favouring GUNDA TAX and not only favouring, but, supporting this evil with all your strength @ hand.

Alright, for a moment GUNDA TAX is acceptable. I am willing to pay that with no regret.

GUNDA TAX is easy to be payed by privileged Pakis and they can easily have anything they wish via this gunda tax. Now, come to reality, Who are we favouring here?

We are favouring only 20 % of privileged Pakis by agreeing to pay this GUNDA TAX. So, we`re the part and parcel of this corrupt Paki culture. WoW!!!! Wonderful!!!

What about rest of the 80% of really Poor Less fortunate Pakis? How will they pay this GUNDA TAX?
I am NOT worried about 20% really corrupt Pakis, all I am ranting, raving and feeling is for 80% poors who have to pay bribes or else face harassment in their daily lives..........be it getting a check or passport or license or any kind of normal routine work................so far these 80% poor Pakis are helpless.

And the dilemma is they can only curse the system and do nothing for the eradication of this evil.....................tsk, tsk, tsk...........................each one of those 80% Pakis wonders that there would be ever a time in their life times when they would get rid of this curse and would lead their routine lives lil easier.......................

Corruption has had real deep and dramatic effects on the lives of poor Pakis, they are enslaved by this corrupt culture...........Pakistan has become a hell to live for these poor Pakis who are deprived of even the basic services like electricity , b/c they can`t afford a GUNDA TAX...........................there is no light in their homes, no warmth for their kids and unfortunately no escape from this hell.......................

Corruption has engulfed their daily lives and nobody is willing to eradicate it...................
And even more disturbing aspect is, majority of Pakis have lost their insight , have given up to raise voice for their basic rights.

They have silently accepted the corruption as the part of their normal culture. For them corruption is normalcy. They don`t defend or they don`t get offended by such corruptions.

Individual corruption has had deep impact on general poverty of the poor Paki public. They have lost their self esteem, their sense of fairness, their bravery, their insight.


Zeemax

As for as helping earthquake victims is , yes I admit Paki citizens have shown a great solidarity in those times of need for those victims, but, why only those times?

Isn`t this kind of solidarity needed for every aspect of Paki society?

Why Pakis are unable to eradicate CORRUPTION from their society which is the MOTHER CANCER, and everything else is CHILD CANCER.....................IF ONLY WE CAN realise and feel with our SENSITIVE SIDES........................................thanks ]]]]

Re: # 145 Kamath

Yes, it is true that corruption, disorder, and human rights violation etc. are common problems in many (every) countries around the globe but in case of Muslim world in general and Pakistan in particular it has a special significance. Let me elaborate. In case of India or any third world country corruption is systemic and can be attributed to poor governance. It is like many social evils that exist in any human society like theft, murder, larceny and any other socially deviant behavior. In such cases as the quality of governance is improved the level of such corruption and deviance go down. or becomes under control.

But in case of Pakistan and other Muslim countries ``corruption`` is used as a tool to control masses by an oppressive ruling class. This class was once remanant of the colonial rule and it constituted those who collaborated with their colonial masters and helped establish their rule over masses. Once the colonials left the occupied territories this social class took at the helm and started controlling the masses. Over the years this class has morphed and now it includes people from all walks of life, i.e. military, industrialists, bureaucrats, teachers, students, feudal lords, professional mullahs, politicians, and ordinary people. Now it is a mindset or a phenomenon rather than a class. This class considers itself the rulers of this country and ruling as their birth right. It is a tiny but extremely powerful segment of the society but this segment has no roots in the society. It considers itself foreign and the local people as just vassals who have to be ruled no matter what. This very fact makes them illegitimate by any standard. In order to legitimize their position in the society they use two lethal tools:

1. Corruption
2. Military force.

As far as corruption goes, it is the tool that ensures their survival. If they can make a significant part of society corrupt then no one will point fingers at their illegitimacy. When I say corruption, it does not mean just the financial corruption but it means corrupting every aspect of life, moral and social. For that they take steps that will ensure the breakdown in the basic unit of society i.e. a family. The most effective tool in this regard is to desseminate a culture of fornication and adultery. Let me elaborate on this. Suppose a society legally controls the practice of fornication and adultery but government through media promotes the values that lead to sexual promiscuity then at the end of the day as the society is corrupted enough government can safely remove laws about adutery and fornication. How can you expect a youth to be morally and sexually upright when he is bombarded day in and day out with the images of sexual stimuli and promiscuity. Similar thing goes with other moral values as well. The corrupt ruling class feeds sugar coated poison of corruption into the minds of people. So just scroll through this thread of interacts or any thread on this board and you will see an overwhelming people who think that a woman in the knickers is a sign of modernity but they will start mumbling if asked whether rule and law and good governance or democracy is a symbol of modernity.

Going back to governance, as I elaborated the example of India above, compare Pakistan. Most of the time in history Pakistan has been ruled by Martial Law, which is the absolute power humanly possible on earth. No Martial Law has ever succeeded in controlling corruption because they cannot. The vicious circle not only takes them back to their own legitimacy but the fact is that they don`t want to. Frankly why give up a weapon of power (corruption) when it serves your purpose so well???

At the end of the day now we see that this ruling social class has successfully stolen the Pakistani Dream from the people of Pakistan. Today if you ask any Pakistani, he is disappointed and hopeless in the State of Pakistan and as a society. Pakistani society did not become this way overnight, we worked very hard to get it to this point. We allowed this to happen with our complacency. Pick up any Pakistani on the street and he will say ``yeh nizam to nahiN badal sakta``. This is the ultimate victory of the corruption that no one has no dream left to dream. Yes you will see many Pakistanis who will put up a brave face and will talk of hope but you can smell the doubt in them from miles away.

But no society is a coherent mix. There are all kinds of people who live in it and definitely there are those who abhor all this and want things to change. But they are rendered helpless. In the recent years the phrase ``sufaid poshi ka bharam`` has become a standard adjective to decribe these people. These people are not only helpless in front of corruption but brutal military force is used against them under one pretext or another. Thousands of people in Pakistan have ``disappeared`` in Pakistan in the past 8 years. An example has been made out of them for the rest as to what will happen if they raise their heads. So what is the solution: more women in knickers, right?

So in short the people who are struggling to liberate Pakistan, are facing a double edged sword. One of this edge is moral corruption that is being desseminated to weaken the vassals and other edge is the military force which chops off the head that goes against the system. Therefore, people who are struggling to change the system must also respond on two fronts - on one front tackle the corruption through education and reform and on the other hand a militant response is becoming an inevitability.

#134 by zeemax

I must concede! Whereas the brief paraphrase that I wrote was from The Cambridge History of Islam, you went to Al Tabri an eminently more authoritative source. Your first conclusion I agree with entirely. But in your second para you end it with a question, “What could be more democratic than that?” Without giving any labels can we just say that – a very limited nomination process followed by general ratification. That I would think should sum up the process by which the Khulfai-Rashidun got their positions.

#146 tehsin: no doubt modern science and notions of democracy (not to mention the olympics!) owes much to the ancient greeks. just as modern jurisprudence and system of government and architecture owes much to the romans. but.....

they there were other civilizations too that have contributed directly or indirectly to where humanity is today. thus: while romans are rightly applauded for their aquaducts and other public works - the persian empire that preceded them by centuries constructed public works (canals, roads) that were of no less a magnitude. this must have required the development of science and engineering that one never hears about. similarly, at marathon, the example you give as a struggle of a democracy against an evil empire, reality is a bit more complicated. e.g. greeks had slaves no less than persians. persians armies were multinational (a contingent from the easternmost province of the persian empire, namely the area that is now pakistan fought at marathon as well, and thus introduced the subcontinent to european people for the first time in history), and this multilingual army must have required a sophisticated level of coordination that no one has researched.

my point is - while ancient rome and greece no doubt laid the foundation for european civilization, and that in turn has taken the world in the past few hundred years on a roller coaster ride from the ancient world to today`s world. However, this can easily lead us to overemphasize the importance of ancient rome and greece relative to other civilizations that preceded them.

However, parts of the world that can rightfully claim the honor of being the place where the first torches of civilizations were lit, the spots where mankind advanced from the hunter/gatherer stage to laid the foundations for todays world, were not greece and rome. they were ancient babylon and ancient pakistan (and i am using this term deliberately, since it is time we recognized this reality of the sacred ground pakistan has inherited). the domestication of plants and animals, a system of writing, public infrastructure, and other essentials of modern civilization were the work of these civilizations.

#142 by tahmed32

It is not a question of looking at previous civilizations as to how big they were, what is important is there relevance to us. The Chinese, the Egyptian or the Indus valley civilizations had tremendous monuments, but no relevance to the present, whereas classical Greek culture continues to remain an integral part of any curriculum. The Socratic method and the Academy remain the method of teaching through out the world. The sciences, the subjects that we learn even today are mostly Greek subjects. The doctors continue to take the Hypocratic oath before they are allowed to practice medicine.

The concept of liberty, not bowing to the whims of a tyrant, where every body was free is uniquely Athenian. The battle of Marathon was fought precisely to preserve this freedom from the rule of the Persian king (a tyrant) who wanted to enslave the Athenians by making them his vassals. That victory of the Greeks which was communicated by a young man running back to Athens continues to be celebrated in marathons through out the world.

In the rest of the world at that time or any time tyranny ruled (rule of a potentate or king). Moreover there was no learning (in the modern sense), everything was myth based, story explanations of how natural phenomena occurred. It was the Greeks who formalized the cause and effect explanation of nature. So, Pakistan Zindabad!

A note about Hamid: Hamid is a dear personal friend, so please don’t interfere with his utterings about me. He in his unique extremely humorous style is welcoming me back to chowk. I wish, I could match him in his wit, but cant, so I continue to communicate in my dronish style.

Hi fellows:

Don`t you have anything else but griping, bitching and whining about corruption, disorder, human rights violation etc. in Pakistan. These exist in ALL societies in different degrees.

Why don`t you think of the country in optimistic terms and come out with some constructive suggestions and solutions however small they may be?

Why don`t you get on with life than get fixated on this depressing talks?

Kamath