Is it time to recognize Dalit Muslims and Dalit Christians?

Re: # 65

mohar11

``The point is: spirituality may be a necessity for modern human existence... where as organized religion(cults) is not... ``

An interesting observation it is, but what do you mean by religion without spirituality. In fact the very term `religion` is ambiguous and contradictory in terms. For instance, Islam does not recognize any other post-Islamic religion and terms it as `Kufr`. Other religions are also exclusivist to some extent but not extremist, the tendency which Bush calls `Islamo-faschism`.

What you mean by spirtuality is perhaps `Humanism` as reflected in a Punjabi poet-sage Bulleh Shah`s couplet wherein he says:

``Masjid dhaa de , mandir dhaa de, dhaa de jo kujh dheindaa
Ik bande da dil nah dhaavein, Rab dillaan wich rehnda``

But since every organized religion creates a powerful vested interest can it allow spirituality or humanism which challenges it to exist. This is the problem we face today in the world turned global village to day.

Re: # 66
Fiji is a really bad example. Indians have lived there for over 150 years and still are told they are not `real` Fijians. An Indian can never become PM of Fiji again under the constitution, which itself is in a state of flux.

Mohar,

As a member of National Secular Scoiety (UK) I can say that secularists wud never oppose u/anybody to worship whichever God u/anybody think fit but u/anybody cant impose ur/anybody`s views on others. Simply put, `live and let live`......as for specifics of gods...it`s one of the contentious subjects in this world.

Pl check pixes of Hubble Telescope: http://hubblesite.org/gallery/album/entire_collection/

None of the Books we know, know the true extent of the `known` universe. Science cant be a God but as an expert put it, `it gives little truths abt ourselves....`

Ref Shah2 #59

[......What do you have agains Italy or Sonia ..Dont Indians hold political posts in Fiji and your wish Tambrahmin second generation be accepted as senators congreess a god forbid as predident of USA ..]

Indians of the n-th generation hold political posts in Fiji, Mauritius, Seychelles, Guyana, etc.

Your sister is not going to be able to marry some Italian and ten years later become the Prime Minister-in-waiting in Italy.

That difference perhaps is too difficult for you to comprehend.

But then, you belong to the category of people who ought not be allowed to go out on their own.

Re: # 64

The concept of ``god`` or an higher power, has been there for a long time, in some form or the other... I am not sure when exactly this started...

humans are have a come long way since those days of ``simple`` existence... the human existence now is much more complex, human emotions are much more developed than it used to be... so in time of worst emotional situation, it helps to believe in some sort of higher power, it helps to cope... the mental crutch...

The point is: spirituality may be a necessity for modern human existence... where as organized religion(cults) is not...

Re: # 57 and # 63

There was NO religion before organised religion came into being just 5000 years ago.
The first Vedas do not even mention God.

Now compare this with the thousands and thousands of years that humans have been around. Though there may have been other superstitions, there was nothing about god.

ALL that is needed for religion to dissappear, is for children to be free of brainwashing abuse at an young age.

Re: # 56

Partha,

The forecast abt the growth of this Info Revolution and tapering-off Caste and Religion is most likely a possible scenario in the West. I have doubts abt the same effect in the Orient.

I hate to see the religious gurus (no exceptions, all do that) using the fruits of scientific inventions whilst reviling the advocates of science. Not so long ago these religious gurus called for the execution of the inventors & innovative thinkers.

Btw, I follow latest trends in the fields of science. I dont believe in the `Theory of Everything`. Try this! Can u have a machine that produces everything? Nope! If u have some thoughts pl share with us here so that it wud enrich my understanding of the subject.

#61 shah: virtually all muslims in the panjab fled for their lives in 1947 to pakistan. so i assume you are talking about muslims in UP, bihar etc. is it really true that the ``elite`` muslims in UP, bihar etc. call themselves ``ashrafi``? how long has this ``caste`` system been practiced by these ``muslims``?

btw, by ``elite`` i assume you mean wealthy, which is synonymous with elite only in poor societies where the poor are too busy scratching out a meal to have time to do anything else.

#3 by tahmed32 on December 30, 2006 6:20am PT
Disgraceful - Indian muslims calling themselves Ashraf or Ajlaf`s depending on circumstance of birth.
...............................

Dont blame wrongfullty IndianMuslims....It was the elitiest who wanted Pakistan and called themselves higher caste Ashrafi
the poorer were left behind in india hence cream of Indianmuslims opted for Pakistan .....

Hari what you gonna do??????????

Tension in Tripura hills over mass conversion
Manas Paul
[ 2 Jan, 2007 0010hrs ISTTIMES NEWS NETWORK ]


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AGARTALA: Serious discontent is brewing among tribesmen in Tripura following alleged large-scale conversion to Christianity in remote parts of North and West Tripura districts.

Tripura Baptist Christian Union secretary Rana Kumar Debbarma admitted that young tribals had been embracing Christianity in recent time on large scale.

He claimed that more than 250 persons, mostly from Tripuri community, changed their faith in this sub-division alone in December. He also gave the break-up of those converted in each area. In North Tripura district, it was the Jhumia Reangs who converted.

There has also been a sharp rise in the number of churches in this area with as many as 193 coming up in the past few years. Bikramjaypara which once happened to be a communist bastion and a village of Vaishnavite Reangs is now 50% neo-Christian.

A visiting team of reporters found that within last 15 days 110 Reang jhumias had converted in the sub-division.

``And you frikking Northies who now support the Italian b!tch.``

in the past 12 head was banned for fighting and using such vile language unecessarily without grounds......What do you have agains Italy or Sonia ..Dont Indians hold political posts in Fiji and your wish Tambrahmin second generation be accepted as senators congreess a god forbid as predident of USA ..ha ha ha

Re: # 56

There was this episode in ``South Park``, set in distant future when religion has been abolished completely from human society and science has taken over... but people were still fighting bitterly about whose science is better, with all their futuristic weapons...

As long as humans are there, in some form or other religion would be there... religion will go only if we go back to being apes... animals follow no religion... :)

Only thing we have to do is remodel the religion into spirituality... which is what it was originally designed for... most people need a mental crutch, every once in a while...

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