The Spirit of Pakistan is Failing
Mubashir Butt December 30, 2006
#33 Posted by Akberm on January 5, 2007 3:06:47 pm
Re: # 16
Unfortunately, you dont seem to be optimistic :) There seems to be a lot of hatred and sarcasm in both of your responses (16 and 12). To rectify a problem, you do an analysis and while doing that you look into certain things, you compare them with the past and then make predictive measurements, consequently you see results. When I do the comparisions to what Pakistan was in the past and what Pakistan is in the present, there has been a tremendous improvement.
Rozaiba, things will not change over night BUT one has to be OPTIMISTIC, we can ONLY change things if we are OPTIMISTIC. In one of your posts you mentioned about Aga Khan, how did he changed the global poverty of some of the third world countries? was it mere magic? was it planned? or did he do it instantly .... change requires time, patience and committment ....
Unfortunately, you dont seem to be optimistic :) There seems to be a lot of hatred and sarcasm in both of your responses (16 and 12). To rectify a problem, you do an analysis and while doing that you look into certain things, you compare them with the past and then make predictive measurements, consequently you see results. When I do the comparisions to what Pakistan was in the past and what Pakistan is in the present, there has been a tremendous improvement.
Rozaiba, things will not change over night BUT one has to be OPTIMISTIC, we can ONLY change things if we are OPTIMISTIC. In one of your posts you mentioned about Aga Khan, how did he changed the global poverty of some of the third world countries? was it mere magic? was it planned? or did he do it instantly .... change requires time, patience and committment ....
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#32 Posted by Pakfin on January 4, 2007 3:16:39 pm
Re: # 7 The majority of muslims who voted for Pakistan opted out in 1971 by creating Bangladesh.
#31 Posted by VRV on January 1, 2007 3:43:05 pm
Re: # 30
Inquirer,
New Year wishes & wishful thinking lasts a day or a week, like many New Year resolutions.
All big events had small beginnings. Look at midnight vigil at Attari-Wagah border nowadays on 14th Augusts. It was originally srated by Kuldip Nayyer, Kushwant Singh & Vinod Mehta in 1997. Though vested interests didnt allow further developments and bystanders laughed at them for their innocence...it had a salutory effect on the bilateral relations and opened up many initiatives......all by the people of India and Pakistan.
Hope this site wud encourage such thinking so that the ideals for which this was started wud be encashed by Indians and Pakistanis...........
Inquirer,
New Year wishes & wishful thinking lasts a day or a week, like many New Year resolutions.
All big events had small beginnings. Look at midnight vigil at Attari-Wagah border nowadays on 14th Augusts. It was originally srated by Kuldip Nayyer, Kushwant Singh & Vinod Mehta in 1997. Though vested interests didnt allow further developments and bystanders laughed at them for their innocence...it had a salutory effect on the bilateral relations and opened up many initiatives......all by the people of India and Pakistan.
Hope this site wud encourage such thinking so that the ideals for which this was started wud be encashed by Indians and Pakistanis...........
#30 Posted by Inquirer on January 1, 2007 9:33:36 am
Re: # 26, VRV:
Your idea for the New Year is good. But propose a forum to succeed.
Your idea for the New Year is good. But propose a forum to succeed.
#29 Posted by Inquirer on January 1, 2007 9:33:24 am
Re: # 26, VRV:
Your idea for the New Year is good. But propose a forum to succeed.
Your idea for the New Year is good. But propose a forum to succeed.
#28 Posted by ballukhan on January 1, 2007 12:18:26 am
POSTCARD USA: Ah! the Pakistani mindset! —Khalid Hasan
Conspiracy as a cause of events is a constant in Pakistan. The theory is packaged in a paradigm that can be slapped on any situation. In other societies conspiracy theories are marginal; in Pakistan they are mainstream
Finally, somebody has worked out as to what ails Pakistanis. The Columbus of this effort is Mohammad Abdul Qadeer, professor emeritus at the School of Urban and Regional Planning at Queen’ University, Kingston, Canada. He lives in Toronto. I suppose you need to be physically at a distance from what you are observing to get its contours right. When you are close, you can’t see the wood for the trees.
Qadeer, who once wrote a book on Lahore from a sociologist’s and urban planner’s point of view, when told that Pakistan had won a hard-fought Security Council seat, beating India, observed, “What Pakistan needs is not a seat on the Security Council but more public toilets in Lahore.” He has just published a book in London on Pakistan and what our social strengths and foibles are. He has devoted a section of the work to the Pakistani mindset and he seems to have got it right.
Qadeer writes that the Pakistani way of perceiving and apprehending reality has been forged in the crucible of an agrarian economy and caste-clan relations. While being an evolving structure of many different parts, the Pakistani mindset is marked by a set of persistent assumptions. We tend to personalise the impersonal. Whether the event to be explained is a flood, poverty, a child’s truancy or marital unhappiness, it is attributed to someone else’s manipulation, malevolent intentions — and when it is something positive — to outside goodwill. The prime mover of every event is believed to be a person. Social or economic processes and even physical forces play a secondary role in the standard Pakistani narrative.
The popular explanation, Qadeer writes, for the break-up of Pakistan in 1971 is Yahya’s, Mujib’s and/or Bhutto’s treachery. A more institutional explanation ends up blaming the Bengalis, India and/or the United States. Pakistanis studying at American universities have a standard explanation if they fail a course. “My professor was prejudiced because I am a Muslim or because I was a person of colour.” And if the student scores a success, it is attributed to his unassailable intellectual and academic superiority. In Pakistan, every occurrence has to have a human agent behind it. Over time, this has been reinforced by the corruption, nepotism and capriciousness of the state. Everyday life is based on ad hoc decisions and personalised dealings. This manifests itself in blaming others and weaving conspiracy theories.
Blaming others, Qadeer argues, has been burnished into a philosophy. He offers examples. The Pakistan Engineers Association blamed foreign consultants and the WAPDA chief for the Tarbela Dam’s cracks. Zionists and Hindus were blamed for breaking up Pakistan, ‘the citadel of Islam’. Terrorism and violence when it first occurred in Karachi was seen as the work of ‘the hidden hand’. NGOs are viewed as engaged in corrupting Pakistani women. If an employee fails to get promoted, it is attributed to the stronger connections of the person who did get promoted. It can also be the boss’s ethnic prejudice.
Qadeer writes that “from blaming others to believing in active plotting by enemies, imagined or real, is a short step. The Pakistani mindset is predisposed to presume conspiracy as the driving force of many events.” The roster of conspiring agents varies with the ideological disposition of the proponent and with the political or social tenor of times. In the 1960s, it was India, the communists and the CIA who were the plotters. The Jews and Israelis were added to the list after the 1967 war. Bhutto in his waning days proclaimed that the Americans had conspired to punish him for his friendship with China and for his fathering of the ‘Islamic’ bomb.
In the 1980s with the Soviets in Afghanistan, they were seen as primarily responsible for the turmoil in Pakistan. The Afghan ‘jihad’ spun out a new strain of conspiracy theories that have morphed into the militant Islamist creed of America, “the perpetrator of the clash of civilisations” and the leader of the infidels. The Ahmadis were blamed for most of the problems in Pakistan’s early days. Rival sects of Deobandis and Barelvis have blamed each other for Pakistan’s sectarian strife.
Qadeer points out that one person’s conspirator is the victim for the other side. Conspiracy as a cause of events is a constant. The theory is packaged in a paradigm that can be slapped on any situation. In other societies conspiracy theories are marginal; in Pakistan they are mainstream. Responsible people propound them and school textbooks offer them as historical truths. Then there is the Pakistani doublethink. The West is portrayed as immoral and yet almost everyone wishes to migrate to the West.
Road traffic in Pakistan is another example of doublethink. Drivers curse others for breaking the rules, yet routinely run red lights, drive on the wrong side of the road or tailgate. The archetype of the Mard-e-Mujahid or the Holy Warrior is embedded in the Pakistani psyche. Pakistanis also believe that given the right connections, anything can be fixed. The pursuit of the ‘fix’ feeds back on the state, making it all the more arbitrary. The ‘Dubai challo’ culture is strong and underscores Pakistani enterprise and the desire to pursue success and advancement in life. The Pakistani diaspora continues to grow.
Pakistanis, Qadeer notes, are verbose. Most people make speeches rather than ask questions. He ends by quoting that superb intellectual Eqbal Ahmed who wrote on the 50th anniversary of Pakistan’s independence, “The most striking feature of our national life has been the equanimity with which our elite has experienced disasters. We are consumed by appetites of life and devoid of moral instincts.”
And it will be a bold man indeed who will speak after Eqbal Ahmed has spoken.
Khalid Hasan is Daily Times’ US-based correspondent. His e-mail is khasan2@cox.net
Home | Editorial
Conspiracy as a cause of events is a constant in Pakistan. The theory is packaged in a paradigm that can be slapped on any situation. In other societies conspiracy theories are marginal; in Pakistan they are mainstream
Finally, somebody has worked out as to what ails Pakistanis. The Columbus of this effort is Mohammad Abdul Qadeer, professor emeritus at the School of Urban and Regional Planning at Queen’ University, Kingston, Canada. He lives in Toronto. I suppose you need to be physically at a distance from what you are observing to get its contours right. When you are close, you can’t see the wood for the trees.
Qadeer, who once wrote a book on Lahore from a sociologist’s and urban planner’s point of view, when told that Pakistan had won a hard-fought Security Council seat, beating India, observed, “What Pakistan needs is not a seat on the Security Council but more public toilets in Lahore.” He has just published a book in London on Pakistan and what our social strengths and foibles are. He has devoted a section of the work to the Pakistani mindset and he seems to have got it right.
Qadeer writes that the Pakistani way of perceiving and apprehending reality has been forged in the crucible of an agrarian economy and caste-clan relations. While being an evolving structure of many different parts, the Pakistani mindset is marked by a set of persistent assumptions. We tend to personalise the impersonal. Whether the event to be explained is a flood, poverty, a child’s truancy or marital unhappiness, it is attributed to someone else’s manipulation, malevolent intentions — and when it is something positive — to outside goodwill. The prime mover of every event is believed to be a person. Social or economic processes and even physical forces play a secondary role in the standard Pakistani narrative.
The popular explanation, Qadeer writes, for the break-up of Pakistan in 1971 is Yahya’s, Mujib’s and/or Bhutto’s treachery. A more institutional explanation ends up blaming the Bengalis, India and/or the United States. Pakistanis studying at American universities have a standard explanation if they fail a course. “My professor was prejudiced because I am a Muslim or because I was a person of colour.” And if the student scores a success, it is attributed to his unassailable intellectual and academic superiority. In Pakistan, every occurrence has to have a human agent behind it. Over time, this has been reinforced by the corruption, nepotism and capriciousness of the state. Everyday life is based on ad hoc decisions and personalised dealings. This manifests itself in blaming others and weaving conspiracy theories.
Blaming others, Qadeer argues, has been burnished into a philosophy. He offers examples. The Pakistan Engineers Association blamed foreign consultants and the WAPDA chief for the Tarbela Dam’s cracks. Zionists and Hindus were blamed for breaking up Pakistan, ‘the citadel of Islam’. Terrorism and violence when it first occurred in Karachi was seen as the work of ‘the hidden hand’. NGOs are viewed as engaged in corrupting Pakistani women. If an employee fails to get promoted, it is attributed to the stronger connections of the person who did get promoted. It can also be the boss’s ethnic prejudice.
Qadeer writes that “from blaming others to believing in active plotting by enemies, imagined or real, is a short step. The Pakistani mindset is predisposed to presume conspiracy as the driving force of many events.” The roster of conspiring agents varies with the ideological disposition of the proponent and with the political or social tenor of times. In the 1960s, it was India, the communists and the CIA who were the plotters. The Jews and Israelis were added to the list after the 1967 war. Bhutto in his waning days proclaimed that the Americans had conspired to punish him for his friendship with China and for his fathering of the ‘Islamic’ bomb.
In the 1980s with the Soviets in Afghanistan, they were seen as primarily responsible for the turmoil in Pakistan. The Afghan ‘jihad’ spun out a new strain of conspiracy theories that have morphed into the militant Islamist creed of America, “the perpetrator of the clash of civilisations” and the leader of the infidels. The Ahmadis were blamed for most of the problems in Pakistan’s early days. Rival sects of Deobandis and Barelvis have blamed each other for Pakistan’s sectarian strife.
Qadeer points out that one person’s conspirator is the victim for the other side. Conspiracy as a cause of events is a constant. The theory is packaged in a paradigm that can be slapped on any situation. In other societies conspiracy theories are marginal; in Pakistan they are mainstream. Responsible people propound them and school textbooks offer them as historical truths. Then there is the Pakistani doublethink. The West is portrayed as immoral and yet almost everyone wishes to migrate to the West.
Road traffic in Pakistan is another example of doublethink. Drivers curse others for breaking the rules, yet routinely run red lights, drive on the wrong side of the road or tailgate. The archetype of the Mard-e-Mujahid or the Holy Warrior is embedded in the Pakistani psyche. Pakistanis also believe that given the right connections, anything can be fixed. The pursuit of the ‘fix’ feeds back on the state, making it all the more arbitrary. The ‘Dubai challo’ culture is strong and underscores Pakistani enterprise and the desire to pursue success and advancement in life. The Pakistani diaspora continues to grow.
Pakistanis, Qadeer notes, are verbose. Most people make speeches rather than ask questions. He ends by quoting that superb intellectual Eqbal Ahmed who wrote on the 50th anniversary of Pakistan’s independence, “The most striking feature of our national life has been the equanimity with which our elite has experienced disasters. We are consumed by appetites of life and devoid of moral instincts.”
And it will be a bold man indeed who will speak after Eqbal Ahmed has spoken.
Khalid Hasan is Daily Times’ US-based correspondent. His e-mail is khasan2@cox.net
Home | Editorial
#27 Posted by ballukhan on January 1, 2007 12:12:11 am
POSTCARD USA: Ah! the Pakistani mindset! —Khalid Hasan
Conspiracy as a cause of events is a constant in Pakistan. The theory is packaged in a paradigm that can be slapped on any situation. In other societies conspiracy theories are marginal; in Pakistan they are mainstream
Finally, somebody has worked out as to what ails Pakistanis. The Columbus of this effort is Mohammad Abdul Qadeer, professor emeritus at the School of Urban and Regional Planning at Queen’ University, Kingston, Canada. He lives in Toronto. I suppose you need to be physically at a distance from what you are observing to get its contours right. When you are close, you can’t see the wood for the trees.
Qadeer, who once wrote a book on Lahore from a sociologist’s and urban planner’s point of view, when told that Pakistan had won a hard-fought Security Council seat, beating India, observed, “What Pakistan needs is not a seat on the Security Council but more public toilets in Lahore.” He has just published a book in London on Pakistan and what our social strengths and foibles are. He has devoted a section of the work to the Pakistani mindset and he seems to have got it right.
Qadeer writes that the Pakistani way of perceiving and apprehending reality has been forged in the crucible of an agrarian economy and caste-clan relations. While being an evolving structure of many different parts, the Pakistani mindset is marked by a set of persistent assumptions. We tend to personalise the impersonal. Whether the event to be explained is a flood, poverty, a child’s truancy or marital unhappiness, it is attributed to someone else’s manipulation, malevolent intentions — and when it is something positive — to outside goodwill. The prime mover of every event is believed to be a person. Social or economic processes and even physical forces play a secondary role in the standard Pakistani narrative.
The popular explanation, Qadeer writes, for the break-up of Pakistan in 1971 is Yahya’s, Mujib’s and/or Bhutto’s treachery. A more institutional explanation ends up blaming the Bengalis, India and/or the United States. Pakistanis studying at American universities have a standard explanation if they fail a course. “My professor was prejudiced because I am a Muslim or because I was a person of colour.” And if the student scores a success, it is attributed to his unassailable intellectual and academic superiority. In Pakistan, every occurrence has to have a human agent behind it. Over time, this has been reinforced by the corruption, nepotism and capriciousness of the state. Everyday life is based on ad hoc decisions and personalised dealings. This manifests itself in blaming others and weaving conspiracy theories.
Blaming others, Qadeer argues, has been burnished into a philosophy. He offers examples. The Pakistan Engineers Association blamed foreign consultants and the WAPDA chief for the Tarbela Dam’s cracks. Zionists and Hindus were blamed for breaking up Pakistan, ‘the citadel of Islam’. Terrorism and violence when it first occurred in Karachi was seen as the work of ‘the hidden hand’. NGOs are viewed as engaged in corrupting Pakistani women. If an employee fails to get promoted, it is attributed to the stronger connections of the person who did get promoted. It can also be the boss’s ethnic prejudice.
Qadeer writes that “from blaming others to believing in active plotting by enemies, imagined or real, is a short step. The Pakistani mindset is predisposed to presume conspiracy as the driving force of many events.” The roster of conspiring agents varies with the ideological disposition of the proponent and with the political or social tenor of times. In the 1960s, it was India, the communists and the CIA who were the plotters. The Jews and Israelis were added to the list after the 1967 war. Bhutto in his waning days proclaimed that the Americans had conspired to punish him for his friendship with China and for his fathering of the ‘Islamic’ bomb.
In the 1980s with the Soviets in Afghanistan, they were seen as primarily responsible for the turmoil in Pakistan. The Afghan ‘jihad’ spun out a new strain of conspiracy theories that have morphed into the militant Islamist creed of America, “the perpetrator of the clash of civilisations” and the leader of the infidels. The Ahmadis were blamed for most of the problems in Pakistan’s early days. Rival sects of Deobandis and Barelvis have blamed each other for Pakistan’s sectarian strife.
Qadeer points out that one person’s conspirator is the victim for the other side. Conspiracy as a cause of events is a constant. The theory is packaged in a paradigm that can be slapped on any situation. In other societies conspiracy theories are marginal; in Pakistan they are mainstream. Responsible people propound them and school textbooks offer them as historical truths. Then there is the Pakistani doublethink. The West is portrayed as immoral and yet almost everyone wishes to migrate to the West.
Road traffic in Pakistan is another example of doublethink. Drivers curse others for breaking the rules, yet routinely run red lights, drive on the wrong side of the road or tailgate. The archetype of the Mard-e-Mujahid or the Holy Warrior is embedded in the Pakistani psyche. Pakistanis also believe that given the right connections, anything can be fixed. The pursuit of the ‘fix’ feeds back on the state, making it all the more arbitrary. The ‘Dubai challo’ culture is strong and underscores Pakistani enterprise and the desire to pursue success and advancement in life. The Pakistani diaspora continues to grow.
Pakistanis, Qadeer notes, are verbose. Most people make speeches rather than ask questions. He ends by quoting that superb intellectual Eqbal Ahmed who wrote on the 50th anniversary of Pakistan’s independence, “The most striking feature of our national life has been the equanimity with which our elite has experienced disasters. We are consumed by appetites of life and devoid of moral instincts.”
And it will be a bold man indeed who will speak after Eqbal Ahmed has spoken.
Khalid Hasan is Daily Times’ US-based correspondent. His e-mail is khasan2@cox.net
Home | Editorial
Conspiracy as a cause of events is a constant in Pakistan. The theory is packaged in a paradigm that can be slapped on any situation. In other societies conspiracy theories are marginal; in Pakistan they are mainstream
Finally, somebody has worked out as to what ails Pakistanis. The Columbus of this effort is Mohammad Abdul Qadeer, professor emeritus at the School of Urban and Regional Planning at Queen’ University, Kingston, Canada. He lives in Toronto. I suppose you need to be physically at a distance from what you are observing to get its contours right. When you are close, you can’t see the wood for the trees.
Qadeer, who once wrote a book on Lahore from a sociologist’s and urban planner’s point of view, when told that Pakistan had won a hard-fought Security Council seat, beating India, observed, “What Pakistan needs is not a seat on the Security Council but more public toilets in Lahore.” He has just published a book in London on Pakistan and what our social strengths and foibles are. He has devoted a section of the work to the Pakistani mindset and he seems to have got it right.
Qadeer writes that the Pakistani way of perceiving and apprehending reality has been forged in the crucible of an agrarian economy and caste-clan relations. While being an evolving structure of many different parts, the Pakistani mindset is marked by a set of persistent assumptions. We tend to personalise the impersonal. Whether the event to be explained is a flood, poverty, a child’s truancy or marital unhappiness, it is attributed to someone else’s manipulation, malevolent intentions — and when it is something positive — to outside goodwill. The prime mover of every event is believed to be a person. Social or economic processes and even physical forces play a secondary role in the standard Pakistani narrative.
The popular explanation, Qadeer writes, for the break-up of Pakistan in 1971 is Yahya’s, Mujib’s and/or Bhutto’s treachery. A more institutional explanation ends up blaming the Bengalis, India and/or the United States. Pakistanis studying at American universities have a standard explanation if they fail a course. “My professor was prejudiced because I am a Muslim or because I was a person of colour.” And if the student scores a success, it is attributed to his unassailable intellectual and academic superiority. In Pakistan, every occurrence has to have a human agent behind it. Over time, this has been reinforced by the corruption, nepotism and capriciousness of the state. Everyday life is based on ad hoc decisions and personalised dealings. This manifests itself in blaming others and weaving conspiracy theories.
Blaming others, Qadeer argues, has been burnished into a philosophy. He offers examples. The Pakistan Engineers Association blamed foreign consultants and the WAPDA chief for the Tarbela Dam’s cracks. Zionists and Hindus were blamed for breaking up Pakistan, ‘the citadel of Islam’. Terrorism and violence when it first occurred in Karachi was seen as the work of ‘the hidden hand’. NGOs are viewed as engaged in corrupting Pakistani women. If an employee fails to get promoted, it is attributed to the stronger connections of the person who did get promoted. It can also be the boss’s ethnic prejudice.
Qadeer writes that “from blaming others to believing in active plotting by enemies, imagined or real, is a short step. The Pakistani mindset is predisposed to presume conspiracy as the driving force of many events.” The roster of conspiring agents varies with the ideological disposition of the proponent and with the political or social tenor of times. In the 1960s, it was India, the communists and the CIA who were the plotters. The Jews and Israelis were added to the list after the 1967 war. Bhutto in his waning days proclaimed that the Americans had conspired to punish him for his friendship with China and for his fathering of the ‘Islamic’ bomb.
In the 1980s with the Soviets in Afghanistan, they were seen as primarily responsible for the turmoil in Pakistan. The Afghan ‘jihad’ spun out a new strain of conspiracy theories that have morphed into the militant Islamist creed of America, “the perpetrator of the clash of civilisations” and the leader of the infidels. The Ahmadis were blamed for most of the problems in Pakistan’s early days. Rival sects of Deobandis and Barelvis have blamed each other for Pakistan’s sectarian strife.
Qadeer points out that one person’s conspirator is the victim for the other side. Conspiracy as a cause of events is a constant. The theory is packaged in a paradigm that can be slapped on any situation. In other societies conspiracy theories are marginal; in Pakistan they are mainstream. Responsible people propound them and school textbooks offer them as historical truths. Then there is the Pakistani doublethink. The West is portrayed as immoral and yet almost everyone wishes to migrate to the West.
Road traffic in Pakistan is another example of doublethink. Drivers curse others for breaking the rules, yet routinely run red lights, drive on the wrong side of the road or tailgate. The archetype of the Mard-e-Mujahid or the Holy Warrior is embedded in the Pakistani psyche. Pakistanis also believe that given the right connections, anything can be fixed. The pursuit of the ‘fix’ feeds back on the state, making it all the more arbitrary. The ‘Dubai challo’ culture is strong and underscores Pakistani enterprise and the desire to pursue success and advancement in life. The Pakistani diaspora continues to grow.
Pakistanis, Qadeer notes, are verbose. Most people make speeches rather than ask questions. He ends by quoting that superb intellectual Eqbal Ahmed who wrote on the 50th anniversary of Pakistan’s independence, “The most striking feature of our national life has been the equanimity with which our elite has experienced disasters. We are consumed by appetites of life and devoid of moral instincts.”
And it will be a bold man indeed who will speak after Eqbal Ahmed has spoken.
Khalid Hasan is Daily Times’ US-based correspondent. His e-mail is khasan2@cox.net
Home | Editorial
#26 Posted by VRV on December 31, 2006 8:05:38 pm
New Year wishes to one N all.
Pakistan means the people of Pakistan. We all know that. We Indians shall know that they too are a bunch of people who seek riches and all the good things this world offers. Given a choice between an all-expsenses paid Moulvigiri OR Jihad in India AND a full scholarship to study in the US/Canada/Europe, the young Pakistani girl/boy wud prefer the latter. (If anybody chooses the former, I am ready to change my views).
I request Indians to socialise with Pakistanis more and more to know them better. Let`s not blame an average Pakistani for the deeds of Mush and his Army or the army of Jihad foot soldiers produced in multitudes by Hafeez Sayed and the men of his ilk.
I totally disagree with the way they approach their history. As outsiders we cant change that.
NEW YEAR`S NEW IDEA:
THERE ARE MANY GROUPS ON BOTH SIDES OF RADCLIFFE LINE WHO GO TOURING THE OTHER SIDE. FOR EG. LAWYERS, PARLIAMENTARIANS, JOUNRLISTS EVEN PROSTITUTES GO ON VISITING THEIR COUNTERPARTS ON THE OTHER SIDE.
WHY CANT WE, NOT THE LIKES OF HP (FROM PAKISTAN) OR HIS COUNTERPARTS FROM INDIAN SIDE, BUT NORMAL GUYZ (I EXCLUDE MYSELF AS MY INTERACTOR INDEX OF 1 SPEAKS FOR ITSELF!) MAKE ANNUAL OR BIENNUAL FORAYS INTO OTHER`S DOMAIN?
IF THIS IDEA ENTHUSES OTHERS PL ADD UR OWN IDEAS FOR THIS EXCHANGE OF CHOWKIES. WE HAVE STORMS IN TEA CUP ALL THE TIME ON CHOWK FP & UP. THE STORMY GUYZ MUST BE KILLED WITH LOVE AND COMPASSION BY OTHERS ON THE WRONG SIDE OF RADCLIFFE-LINE!
OK??? :-)
Pakistan means the people of Pakistan. We all know that. We Indians shall know that they too are a bunch of people who seek riches and all the good things this world offers. Given a choice between an all-expsenses paid Moulvigiri OR Jihad in India AND a full scholarship to study in the US/Canada/Europe, the young Pakistani girl/boy wud prefer the latter. (If anybody chooses the former, I am ready to change my views).
I request Indians to socialise with Pakistanis more and more to know them better. Let`s not blame an average Pakistani for the deeds of Mush and his Army or the army of Jihad foot soldiers produced in multitudes by Hafeez Sayed and the men of his ilk.
I totally disagree with the way they approach their history. As outsiders we cant change that.
NEW YEAR`S NEW IDEA:
THERE ARE MANY GROUPS ON BOTH SIDES OF RADCLIFFE LINE WHO GO TOURING THE OTHER SIDE. FOR EG. LAWYERS, PARLIAMENTARIANS, JOUNRLISTS EVEN PROSTITUTES GO ON VISITING THEIR COUNTERPARTS ON THE OTHER SIDE.
WHY CANT WE, NOT THE LIKES OF HP (FROM PAKISTAN) OR HIS COUNTERPARTS FROM INDIAN SIDE, BUT NORMAL GUYZ (I EXCLUDE MYSELF AS MY INTERACTOR INDEX OF 1 SPEAKS FOR ITSELF!) MAKE ANNUAL OR BIENNUAL FORAYS INTO OTHER`S DOMAIN?
IF THIS IDEA ENTHUSES OTHERS PL ADD UR OWN IDEAS FOR THIS EXCHANGE OF CHOWKIES. WE HAVE STORMS IN TEA CUP ALL THE TIME ON CHOWK FP & UP. THE STORMY GUYZ MUST BE KILLED WITH LOVE AND COMPASSION BY OTHERS ON THE WRONG SIDE OF RADCLIFFE-LINE!
OK??? :-)
#25 Posted by rashid_s on December 31, 2006 6:11:26 pm
#21
``young libral``?--Thanks!
``I do not understand what so big about children working in rug industry. You have any other good jobs lined for them``. YES!
Children are considered as a Nations potential wealth. As such they should be in schools and playing sports as normal children MUST do as their job That is their natural RIGHT. That any STATE and its CITISENS must, as their RESPONSIBILITY provide them-Sir.
If we were to accept - shamefuly-that Pakistan is so poor that its children have to work in RUG industry, even then a nation built on the premise of KHUDI and justice must see that the labour is rewarded in the most equitable manner. These carpets are sold in hunreds and thousands of dollars, overseas. Who pockets the millions?
By performing umra and hajj by the laakhs, the ilgotten wealth can not be laundered with the blood of, even if one pays coror rupees for a prised bull!
The doco showed children in chains and shakled to the woodden benches.
DON`T SHOOT THE MESSENGER- do the right thing to correct the situation to gain human respect for your women and children. If one does not UNDERSTAND this than indeed the Nations spirit is lost!
Rashid
``young libral``?--Thanks!
``I do not understand what so big about children working in rug industry. You have any other good jobs lined for them``. YES!
Children are considered as a Nations potential wealth. As such they should be in schools and playing sports as normal children MUST do as their job That is their natural RIGHT. That any STATE and its CITISENS must, as their RESPONSIBILITY provide them-Sir.
If we were to accept - shamefuly-that Pakistan is so poor that its children have to work in RUG industry, even then a nation built on the premise of KHUDI and justice must see that the labour is rewarded in the most equitable manner. These carpets are sold in hunreds and thousands of dollars, overseas. Who pockets the millions?
By performing umra and hajj by the laakhs, the ilgotten wealth can not be laundered with the blood of, even if one pays coror rupees for a prised bull!
The doco showed children in chains and shakled to the woodden benches.
DON`T SHOOT THE MESSENGER- do the right thing to correct the situation to gain human respect for your women and children. If one does not UNDERSTAND this than indeed the Nations spirit is lost!
Rashid
#24 Posted by Inquirer on December 31, 2006 2:39:44 pm
When everything is said and done, today Pakistan is better than any time since 1947. It is different if you differ from Musharraf and have lost your privileges. I can understand.
#23 Posted by Urstruly on December 31, 2006 1:57:54 pm
THE LAMENTS OF A DAUGHTER OF PAKISTAN
Where is my father?
A question from cantonment kuttas
#22 Posted by Urstruly on December 31, 2006 10:19:33 am
DISAPPEARNACES IN PAKISTAN - An open letter by the wife of one victim of GOP (Gestapo of Pakistan) i.e. NaPak Fauj
The symbol of victim of military oppression, Mrs. Masud writes:
#21 Posted by ahmedmadani on December 31, 2006 9:49:01 am
Re: # 18
Rashid... ..... I do not want show disrespect but you seems to be young romantic liberal and anti establishment leftist radical revolutionary. Now you should never mention BBC and western media to authenticate your views as these establishments want to make slave country of pakistan and use liberals as unpaid agents who are shooting at moral of country.
Indirectly you are attacking GOP in service of BBC is problem really big problem. Sure if you feel country is failing or failed then it is that way but I feel problems are being tackled and things are looking better specially in area of economics, stock market ( from 800 to 12000 kse shot) if people have saved and put say 50,000 they would have 750,000 Rs. Not bad return for 7 years from time general and army stated cleaning mess left by liberal NS and BB before that. Now i agree anything becomes little boring when for 7 years but just like medicine you need to complete dose of antibiotics or problems come back. Now people are talking against army all time but its like little boys talking against shots, injections. Now generally poor people are good and patient and ready to sacrafice for country the problem is with liberals, lefts and rights, they want to make problems for country as they are always nervious people. What they need is good whipping till they will begin to feel better and will feel country is doing better. Now I am for poor people but poor are unnecessarily attached too many virtues, not virtues but due to necessicity they behave good.
I do not understand what so big about children working in rug industry. You have any other good jobs lined for them. Now he is learning trade which he can do throughout life. This job is better than working in brick making operations or working as waiter boy in Karachi or Lahore. If we get majority like your attitude then country will go down fast, but fortunately spirit of people is hopeful and army will never allow things to go that bad where leftist liberals can start revolutions which are all bougus in short term and tragic in long terms. I feel you need to look at things cheerfully , you need to feel happy and world will feel happy to you.
I wish you good, happy , prosperous 2007 for all race people. Good night.
Rashid... ..... I do not want show disrespect but you seems to be young romantic liberal and anti establishment leftist radical revolutionary. Now you should never mention BBC and western media to authenticate your views as these establishments want to make slave country of pakistan and use liberals as unpaid agents who are shooting at moral of country.
Indirectly you are attacking GOP in service of BBC is problem really big problem. Sure if you feel country is failing or failed then it is that way but I feel problems are being tackled and things are looking better specially in area of economics, stock market ( from 800 to 12000 kse shot) if people have saved and put say 50,000 they would have 750,000 Rs. Not bad return for 7 years from time general and army stated cleaning mess left by liberal NS and BB before that. Now i agree anything becomes little boring when for 7 years but just like medicine you need to complete dose of antibiotics or problems come back. Now people are talking against army all time but its like little boys talking against shots, injections. Now generally poor people are good and patient and ready to sacrafice for country the problem is with liberals, lefts and rights, they want to make problems for country as they are always nervious people. What they need is good whipping till they will begin to feel better and will feel country is doing better. Now I am for poor people but poor are unnecessarily attached too many virtues, not virtues but due to necessicity they behave good.
I do not understand what so big about children working in rug industry. You have any other good jobs lined for them. Now he is learning trade which he can do throughout life. This job is better than working in brick making operations or working as waiter boy in Karachi or Lahore. If we get majority like your attitude then country will go down fast, but fortunately spirit of people is hopeful and army will never allow things to go that bad where leftist liberals can start revolutions which are all bougus in short term and tragic in long terms. I feel you need to look at things cheerfully , you need to feel happy and world will feel happy to you.
I wish you good, happy , prosperous 2007 for all race people. Good night.
#20 Posted by arjun2 on December 31, 2006 7:19:37 am
#14 by mohar11 on December 30, 2006 5:56pm PT
pakis should have a blameboard 100, like the billboard 100...the list would be a weekly countdown of the 100 things pakis blame...the usual suspects would have a permanent position, sort of like the beatles...you know..the jews, the crusaders, the hindus etc etc...
pakis should have a blameboard 100, like the billboard 100...the list would be a weekly countdown of the 100 things pakis blame...the usual suspects would have a permanent position, sort of like the beatles...you know..the jews, the crusaders, the hindus etc etc...
#19 Posted by Inquirer on December 31, 2006 6:34:28 am
Re: # 10,Salim
Good, now you have come and stated the blunt truth. Thanks, I can leave this.
Good, now you have come and stated the blunt truth. Thanks, I can leave this.
#18 Posted by rashid_s on December 31, 2006 1:03:57 am
# 17
``If you look around globe and ask question which nation has no problems which are no prblem countries answer is all have problems``.
The citzens of any nation that use the above excuse to stifle its constructive cricism is indeed a Nation whos spirit is not only failing, but may have already failed.
Couple of years ago BBC showed a doco on Pakistan`s Carpet Industry, thriving on the labour of enslaved children. Most horrible scenes of child abuse ever. My Pakistani friends retorted that it is even worse in India!
Although it turned out that it is as bad in India, one can not but feel sorry for both.
Rashid
``If you look around globe and ask question which nation has no problems which are no prblem countries answer is all have problems``.
The citzens of any nation that use the above excuse to stifle its constructive cricism is indeed a Nation whos spirit is not only failing, but may have already failed.
Couple of years ago BBC showed a doco on Pakistan`s Carpet Industry, thriving on the labour of enslaved children. Most horrible scenes of child abuse ever. My Pakistani friends retorted that it is even worse in India!
Although it turned out that it is as bad in India, one can not but feel sorry for both.
Rashid
#17 Posted by ahmedmadani on December 31, 2006 12:12:02 am
The article is wrong from start to finish. Pakistan is going in normal ways, problems come and nation overcome them. I do not love liberal and progressive left wing people as they are bised aginst religious nations and entities from start. If you look around globe and ask question which nation has no problems which are no prblem countries answer is all have problems. We patriotic , old fashioned old people hate liberal agenda as it is idealogically driven that army is bad and people are wise and devine and they have brains to elect proper people in election. Election is all drama as in democracy only counting matters as they measure wrongly. Now it is fake protest by saying we do not care for bihari etc. Now govt is lead by MQM man and MQM can get anything they want. But they want bihiris to stagnate in BD as then they have cause to flare up mind of Mohagirs. Why they do not lift all biharis as general can do anything he wants. It has become just propaganda to blame people of pakistan.
Any waythe article is with pessimist attitude and author should take out goggles of misery and look at cuccesses also and feel little better. If you think -ve all time bad things happen. Its fashion to blame army but why not blame avrage citizen. One should look in Macro terms. Liberal , left have tendency to look at misery and magnify and feel vindicated. May be such -ve attitude people should be exiled as they give message of doom and failure.
Ayub, Y. Khan, Zia, Mush. comes and goes but Pakistan and pakistani preople go ahead and 2007 is going to be great year.
Good 2007 for everybody.
Shia govt of Iran should have put saddam in jail for 30 years by killing him they lost chance to be magninomus to Minority Sunnis they lost good chance. Time of Victory is time when sin and blunders occurs. Atleast 20,000 people will be killed in sectarian violence due to Saddam`s death. Same mistake zia make killing mr.Bhutto and Musharaff made same by killing Bugti war lord. He should have captured and put in prison and then let him go when is old and incapable.
Anyway if you do not like Pakistan leave and go to usa or uk etc but please no bad pessimistic attitude.
Any waythe article is with pessimist attitude and author should take out goggles of misery and look at cuccesses also and feel little better. If you think -ve all time bad things happen. Its fashion to blame army but why not blame avrage citizen. One should look in Macro terms. Liberal , left have tendency to look at misery and magnify and feel vindicated. May be such -ve attitude people should be exiled as they give message of doom and failure.
Ayub, Y. Khan, Zia, Mush. comes and goes but Pakistan and pakistani preople go ahead and 2007 is going to be great year.
Good 2007 for everybody.
Shia govt of Iran should have put saddam in jail for 30 years by killing him they lost chance to be magninomus to Minority Sunnis they lost good chance. Time of Victory is time when sin and blunders occurs. Atleast 20,000 people will be killed in sectarian violence due to Saddam`s death. Same mistake zia make killing mr.Bhutto and Musharaff made same by killing Bugti war lord. He should have captured and put in prison and then let him go when is old and incapable.
Anyway if you do not like Pakistan leave and go to usa or uk etc but please no bad pessimistic attitude.
#16 Posted by rozaiba on December 30, 2006 10:01:45 pm
Re: # 15
Wrong analogy Chauhan. The chowkidars play all the roles - they are the contractors, the sub-contractors and the manufacturers of the sub-standard cement.
Wrong analogy Chauhan. The chowkidars play all the roles - they are the contractors, the sub-contractors and the manufacturers of the sub-standard cement.
#15 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on December 30, 2006 6:15:58 pm
#12 rozaiba {``Pakistan is a failed state because Musharaf and the Army is ruling the country. ...It`s a futile exercise trying to put some conclusion to the exercise of partition in 1947. Justification for Pakistan and what it should be or should not be is irrelevant and uncessary to solving today`s problems.``}
Rozaiba,
You sound like the mob that wants to lynch the chowkidar for the collapse of a building due to the contractor`s use of substandard cement.
Rozaiba,
You sound like the mob that wants to lynch the chowkidar for the collapse of a building due to the contractor`s use of substandard cement.
#14 Posted by mohar11 on December 30, 2006 5:56:38 pm
Here is an interesting perspective why pakis are failing: Blaming others for their own problems...
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006 12 31 story_31-12-2006_pg3_3
``Qadeer writes that the Pakistani way of perceiving and apprehending reality has been forged in the crucible of an agrarian economy and caste-clan relations. While being an evolving structure of many different parts, the Pakistani mindset is marked by a set of persistent assumptions. We tend to personalise the impersonal. Whether the event to be explained is a flood, poverty, a child’s truancy or marital unhappiness, it is attributed to someone else’s manipulation, malevolent intentions — and when it is something positive — to outside goodwill. The prime mover of every event is believed to be a person. Social or economic processes and even physical forces play a secondary role in the standard Pakistani narrative.``
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006 12 31 story_31-12-2006_pg3_3
``Qadeer writes that the Pakistani way of perceiving and apprehending reality has been forged in the crucible of an agrarian economy and caste-clan relations. While being an evolving structure of many different parts, the Pakistani mindset is marked by a set of persistent assumptions. We tend to personalise the impersonal. Whether the event to be explained is a flood, poverty, a child’s truancy or marital unhappiness, it is attributed to someone else’s manipulation, malevolent intentions — and when it is something positive — to outside goodwill. The prime mover of every event is believed to be a person. Social or economic processes and even physical forces play a secondary role in the standard Pakistani narrative.``
#13 Posted by jay1 on December 30, 2006 4:59:44 pm
Hi all,
Pakistan is failing because...
It is more severely afflicted by a malaise spread deeply all over the islamic world.
Its symptoms are as under:-
1 - An all encompassing arrogance ..a feeling of superiority..
(by associating itself with wrong type of conquerors..looters like gaznavi / Ghouri ..without pausing to wonder if their ``role models`` were really islamic heroes or just plain rascals out for a quick booty and women they could enjoy and dispose of as they willed under a religious sanction).
There are good ordinary people in this ummah even today ..who sincerely believe in mal -e - ghanimat ..even sharing and using women of ``plundered people`` as valid islamic duty!!
2 - Complete failure to isolate religion rom the state.
3 - An unexplainable love of power and tendency to extoll the source of that power.
(That is why not a whimper of protest at any excesses committed by islamic people on others! Till date no one has been prosecuted even in absentia for the genocide in BANGLADESH but look at the pious shouts of complicity regarding Gujarat / palestine / Iraq)!!
4 - A Sort of gut hate for all things ``percieved as western``
That includes studying science.
We have mullahs debating solemnly on TV about wearing watches during prayer is haram or not!!
And psychotic euro-converts touted on state television saying ``allah`s wrath was causing earth quakes!
5 - Watching a ``pakistan image improvement`` documentary very much touted on ary or some such channel..i expected some nice cultural thing / scientefic achievements..but what does one see?
A guy wailing in the background something vaguely sounding like ``anarkali``..!
A pompous religio-military music and visuals of ghauri and tanks!!
How much can a government ``miss a point``?
6 - Unquestioning robotic will to ``do anything for Islam.
result?
Mindless suicide bombings !
Last but not the least, a blind faith in the power of (no not allah) but saudi arabia to strike terror in the heart of the world IF...(IT IS USUALLY A PROGRESSION OF IFS..
IF NOT KASHMIR
IF THEY KILL SADDAM
IF IRAQ ID CONQUERED..
I still remember how one INDIAN MUSLIM rien in the gulf only 2 days ago pompously warned ..
``SAUDI ARABIA VAAT LAGA DALEGA SABKI AGAR SADDAM MARA TO``
Wah how mean can Islamic ``dada-giri`` get?
In UK they are already dictating foreing policy guided by above ``AISA KAR O VARNA`` ..stuff.
In the end as a result ``yeh to homa hi tha``!!.
Pakistan is failing because...
It is more severely afflicted by a malaise spread deeply all over the islamic world.
Its symptoms are as under:-
1 - An all encompassing arrogance ..a feeling of superiority..
(by associating itself with wrong type of conquerors..looters like gaznavi / Ghouri ..without pausing to wonder if their ``role models`` were really islamic heroes or just plain rascals out for a quick booty and women they could enjoy and dispose of as they willed under a religious sanction).
There are good ordinary people in this ummah even today ..who sincerely believe in mal -e - ghanimat ..even sharing and using women of ``plundered people`` as valid islamic duty!!
2 - Complete failure to isolate religion rom the state.
3 - An unexplainable love of power and tendency to extoll the source of that power.
(That is why not a whimper of protest at any excesses committed by islamic people on others! Till date no one has been prosecuted even in absentia for the genocide in BANGLADESH but look at the pious shouts of complicity regarding Gujarat / palestine / Iraq)!!
4 - A Sort of gut hate for all things ``percieved as western``
That includes studying science.
We have mullahs debating solemnly on TV about wearing watches during prayer is haram or not!!
And psychotic euro-converts touted on state television saying ``allah`s wrath was causing earth quakes!
5 - Watching a ``pakistan image improvement`` documentary very much touted on ary or some such channel..i expected some nice cultural thing / scientefic achievements..but what does one see?
A guy wailing in the background something vaguely sounding like ``anarkali``..!
A pompous religio-military music and visuals of ghauri and tanks!!
How much can a government ``miss a point``?
6 - Unquestioning robotic will to ``do anything for Islam.
result?
Mindless suicide bombings !
Last but not the least, a blind faith in the power of (no not allah) but saudi arabia to strike terror in the heart of the world IF...(IT IS USUALLY A PROGRESSION OF IFS..
IF NOT KASHMIR
IF THEY KILL SADDAM
IF IRAQ ID CONQUERED..
I still remember how one INDIAN MUSLIM rien in the gulf only 2 days ago pompously warned ..
``SAUDI ARABIA VAAT LAGA DALEGA SABKI AGAR SADDAM MARA TO``
Wah how mean can Islamic ``dada-giri`` get?
In UK they are already dictating foreing policy guided by above ``AISA KAR O VARNA`` ..stuff.
In the end as a result ``yeh to homa hi tha``!!.
#12 Posted by rozaiba on December 30, 2006 4:37:08 pm
Pakistan is a failed state because Musharaf and the Army is ruling the country. They exist at the expense of Pakistan. While nothing has been done to change course, and the country slips from a failed state toward a train wreck, there are many elements which still exist that can be used and acted upon to alter disintegration.
It`s a futile exercise trying to put some conclusion to the exercise of partition in 1947. Justification for Pakistan and what it should be or should not be is irrelevant and uncessary to solving today`s problems. The problems stem from Army rule and an utter disregard for institutional development (whose most prominent manifestation is again in Musharaf`s parasitic rule). The framework, the institutions necesary for building a state exist.
It`s a futile exercise trying to put some conclusion to the exercise of partition in 1947. Justification for Pakistan and what it should be or should not be is irrelevant and uncessary to solving today`s problems. The problems stem from Army rule and an utter disregard for institutional development (whose most prominent manifestation is again in Musharaf`s parasitic rule). The framework, the institutions necesary for building a state exist.
#11 Posted by Shah2 on December 30, 2006 4:14:36 pm
Only if Pakistani founders had made Spirit of ISLAM as the basis rather than superior inferior feudalistic distinction of being RULiNG moghul history when majority (democracy) of muslims where not Moghuls or Ghourie descendents
#10 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on December 30, 2006 3:51:00 pm
Butt Sahib,
I applaud you for expressing your true feelings without the sugarcoating of the unholy and much abused trinity of Jinnah, Islam, and Koran. The reason for for the common malaise among Pakistanis is that the foundation of our country rests upon the cracking bones of the murdered and butchered held together not too firmly by the stench of the innocents` blood.
Any nation that refuses to take back or even acknowledge its own unfortunate citizens, stranded in another country, deserves to be dismantled, humiliated, castrated, hanged, and flogged in a public parking lot.
If you don`t respect or love your own people, how are you going to save the world from all the evils that beset it. The Holy Koran requires us to save the world from evil - instead we have rapidly become that evil. May Allah forgive Jinnah and all the rascals that followed him in office - from the stupid Liaquat Ali Khan to the stupid and diabolical Mushy Mush Mush. Too bad we only had enough rope for Bhutto and none for his cohorts.
I applaud you for expressing your true feelings without the sugarcoating of the unholy and much abused trinity of Jinnah, Islam, and Koran. The reason for for the common malaise among Pakistanis is that the foundation of our country rests upon the cracking bones of the murdered and butchered held together not too firmly by the stench of the innocents` blood.
Any nation that refuses to take back or even acknowledge its own unfortunate citizens, stranded in another country, deserves to be dismantled, humiliated, castrated, hanged, and flogged in a public parking lot.
If you don`t respect or love your own people, how are you going to save the world from all the evils that beset it. The Holy Koran requires us to save the world from evil - instead we have rapidly become that evil. May Allah forgive Jinnah and all the rascals that followed him in office - from the stupid Liaquat Ali Khan to the stupid and diabolical Mushy Mush Mush. Too bad we only had enough rope for Bhutto and none for his cohorts.
#9 Posted by TanS on December 30, 2006 3:06:36 pm
Re: # 1
The spirit of Pakistan was not ``exclusivist``; it was a decision based upon FACTS as much as ideology. The creators of Pakistan did not want to create a state for Muslims because they were convinced of Muslim ``superiority`` or Hindu ``inferiority``, but because living together was NOT FEASIBLE for the two communities.
Had future generations of Pakistanis not terribly misconstrued it all, the reation of Pakistan SHOULD HAVE benefitted hindus AS MUCH AS Muslims of the sub-continent..
The spirit of Pakistan was not ``exclusivist``; it was a decision based upon FACTS as much as ideology. The creators of Pakistan did not want to create a state for Muslims because they were convinced of Muslim ``superiority`` or Hindu ``inferiority``, but because living together was NOT FEASIBLE for the two communities.
Had future generations of Pakistanis not terribly misconstrued it all, the reation of Pakistan SHOULD HAVE benefitted hindus AS MUCH AS Muslims of the sub-continent..
#8 Posted by TanS on December 30, 2006 2:58:15 pm
The pakistan spirit... in my opinion, that is epitomized in Jinnah`s words:`` Justice, fair-play, impartiality.`` This messae has been most brutally manipulated; so much so,in fact, that it now exists merely in the form of words- it is absent from the hearts. Why? Maybe because now,there are no more ``Pakistanis`` as Jinnah envisioned them- there are only people leeching off whatever Pakistan has to offer, never feeling an ounce of gratitude. Why, then should there be a ``Paksiatn spirit``?
#7 Posted by mohar11 on December 30, 2006 2:50:02 pm
Re: # 6
Go easy there big man... don`t be so harsh on J-man... after all, a vast number of muslims did want and voted for creation of pakistan...
Spirit of pakiland is certainly failing... but all is not lost yet... there is still time to pull back and recover - as long as pakis focus on the basics...
Go easy there big man... don`t be so harsh on J-man... after all, a vast number of muslims did want and voted for creation of pakistan...
Spirit of pakiland is certainly failing... but all is not lost yet... there is still time to pull back and recover - as long as pakis focus on the basics...
#6 Posted by Inquirer on December 30, 2006 11:31:22 am
Re: # 5, mubakr:
What you want to discuss and avoid is your choice. But your wail needed an evaluation and response.
Now, I can fully understand that my comments were like salt on your wounds. But I am sorry truth is truth.
The truth is that the entire delusion of Pakistan was a foolish and pernicious trick played by Jinnahs and Liyaqats as has been amply established by the honest and wise muslims like Azad and Zakaria.
I further assert that Pakistani spirit shall inevitably fail and it MUST. My only apprehension is the in its disintegration Pakistan State will hurt India.
What you want to discuss and avoid is your choice. But your wail needed an evaluation and response.
Now, I can fully understand that my comments were like salt on your wounds. But I am sorry truth is truth.
The truth is that the entire delusion of Pakistan was a foolish and pernicious trick played by Jinnahs and Liyaqats as has been amply established by the honest and wise muslims like Azad and Zakaria.
I further assert that Pakistani spirit shall inevitably fail and it MUST. My only apprehension is the in its disintegration Pakistan State will hurt India.
#5 Posted by mubakr on December 30, 2006 10:34:14 am
Re: # 3
i never wish to enter in any kind of debate when both sides would have their conviction in the subject. but what pushes me to write is this mindset of seeing pakistan dissected into three or i-dont-know how many units forgetting about the basis of the nature of international relations. such an article or thinking could also have been taken as a comment of resistance against the situation that does not fit in the norms of a normal social or governance behavior but...three parts...four parts...five parts...six pa......
i would never get into a debate like this pointing daughters being exchanged in UP against a pair of dogs, missionaries being lynched alive with kids, mosques demolished and low-caste (whatever that means) people persecuted under a certain religion...or even eminent people writing about the ``end of india!`` spirit does matter and the ones who understand it, understand. the ones who dont, dont.
i would strongly suggest physicists doing physics and chemists doing chemistry etc.
i never wish to enter in any kind of debate when both sides would have their conviction in the subject. but what pushes me to write is this mindset of seeing pakistan dissected into three or i-dont-know how many units forgetting about the basis of the nature of international relations. such an article or thinking could also have been taken as a comment of resistance against the situation that does not fit in the norms of a normal social or governance behavior but...three parts...four parts...five parts...six pa......
i would never get into a debate like this pointing daughters being exchanged in UP against a pair of dogs, missionaries being lynched alive with kids, mosques demolished and low-caste (whatever that means) people persecuted under a certain religion...or even eminent people writing about the ``end of india!`` spirit does matter and the ones who understand it, understand. the ones who dont, dont.
i would strongly suggest physicists doing physics and chemists doing chemistry etc.
#4 Posted by arjun2 on December 30, 2006 8:58:34 am
first dibs on calling gandhi a racist casteist hindu nazi bastard...
manto...eat yer heart out....
manto...eat yer heart out....
#3 Posted by Inquirer on December 30, 2006 8:28:11 am
I never thought that I would agree substantively with bjkumar on much. But I do agree entirely with him/her about #1. However, I wish he had not descended to #2.
As for the article it is true that Pakistan is better than it was under the previous general, Zia (interpret him as darkness!). However, I do not understand what scuttled Mushrraf`s early declared efforts to modernize Pakistan to a more acceptable state. May be he himself did not do enough to achieve all he outlined.
However, it is quite possible that before the end of the first decade of 21st century, Pakistan will split into three or four states.
As for the article it is true that Pakistan is better than it was under the previous general, Zia (interpret him as darkness!). However, I do not understand what scuttled Mushrraf`s early declared efforts to modernize Pakistan to a more acceptable state. May be he himself did not do enough to achieve all he outlined.
However, it is quite possible that before the end of the first decade of 21st century, Pakistan will split into three or four states.
#2 Posted by bjkumar on December 30, 2006 6:09:00 am
I believe that those who stoked the fires of communal tension and brought the mayhem of religion-specific slaughter to the subcontinent, flooding it with rivers of blood ought to be yanked out of wherever they hide - even their graves, and hung by their necks!
Saddam Hussein, now executed, could not hold a tiny candle to such people - those devil-incarnates!!!
#1 Posted by bjkumar on December 30, 2006 6:04:42 am
Lofty words do not mean anything.
When all is said and done, the ``spirit`` of Pakistan was exclusivist - to make distinction among men based on the accident of their religion of birth. The end result of such ``spirit`` was predictable - based on simple common sense. Those who believe in making no such distinction should shed no tears on the ``spirit`s`` demise.
It never had a physical basis!
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