Saddam - The Sacrificial Lion

#31 masadi {``The people cannot be blamed for the decisions and doings of their elite especially when they have little or no control or representation, consciousness or organization``}

Masadi Sahib,
Eid Mubarak and Happy New Year to you, my friend. Now, as for who is to blame, don`t you agree that at some point, we Muslims need to take responsibility over our own environment? We can`t even remove, try, and hang our own criminals without the support of foreigners.
East Pakistani Bengalis had to resort to Indian interference to obtain their freedom and expel the West Pakistani oppressors. The poor people of Afghanistan had to wait for American interference (more like vengeance and retribution) to rid them of the horrible Tally Bans. The Somali government needed the help of mostly Christian Ethiopian army to drive out the crazy Islamic Courts Union thugs. The Soodis needed American (Christian and Jewish) forces to protect them from brotherly Ayrab and fellow-Sunni Muslim Sadman Houston. All the Stans (Kazakh, Kirghis, Uzbek, Tajik, Turkmen) and Azerbaijan needed Christian Russian and godless Communist Soviet occupation to drive their literacy figures into the 90%+ range.
Slavery is a state when others decide when, why, where, and how you live.

....i think the best way to see how things will pan out in the future is to look at past trends.......most of them are quite clear, yet so many people totally ignore them........

1. no one has, historically, been able to defeat the afghans through an invasion and occupy their lands......the british tried it, the soviets tried it, pakistanis and iranis (?) kind of tried it.......based on this, it should be obvious that nato and usa are not going to be able to do it either........

hence we will soon be seeing a defeated nato coming out of afghanistan.......

2. it is nearly impossible for a structured military to defeat an insurgency, when the military is trying to occupy land.........the only successful example is in malaysia (?) with the brits (?).........all other occupations have failed......at best they have resulted in long term perpetual violence........at worst in all out defeat for the occupying country......french in algeria......soviets in afghanistan.......usa in vietnam.........pakistan in bangladesh.......india in kashmir........israel in lebanon..........israel in palestine.........russia in chechnya.......turkey in kurdistan.........

based on this, the americans were bound to be defeated in iraq......which is what has happened........though it was even a lot faster than i thought.......

3. any dictator, in a muslim country, who sides with the usa, will eventually, one day, get hanged by the usa at some point.........the reason is that sooner or later, the population of that country will rise up against the pro-usa policies of the dictator, thereby forcing the dictator to adopt anti-usa policies....or even more dangerously, anti-israel policy........or the dictator will over-extend himself, in trying to assist the usa, in its conflicts with other countries, thereby weakening himself in his own country............

shah in iran.......zia in pakistan.......saddam in iraq......noriega in panama.......mujahideen leaders in afghanistan........based on this trend, the next on the list are hosni in egypt.....sauds in saudi arabia.......the gulf shiekhs.........the king of jordan.....the leaders of lebanon......and most of all, our own musharraf....

.......the best policy is to niether be a friend of the us govt. nor be an enemy........one is screwed if one does either.......especially if one is a dictator........either your own population will hang you or the americans will.........rumsfeld shaking hands with saddam one day, and executing him the next is a very good example.......

........hence, the best thing for musharraf to do now is to distance himself from the usa and start doing what his own population wants him to do.......rather than waiting till the last second when he has to ditch the usa, in the fear of his own population overthrowing him......or he has to become anti-usa.........in both the later cases, he is screwed............if hilary clinton or borack obama don`t hang him then john mccain or qazi hussain (or nawaz sharif will).........

Re: # 28

Salim bhai:

What are the differences between Shia and Sunni, for a non-religious person to understand?

#35, Anil,
While it is dangerous to generalize and considering that there are many many offshoots of Shiaism and Sunni schools of thought, it is probably fair to state that:

Shias believe that Ali, the cousin and son-in-law of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), should have been the first caliph (successor).
Shias believe that the ruler must rule with the will of the majority, be a good Muslim, and should be removed if not appropriate as a ruler.
Shias believe that Islamic law is not inflexible and should evolve based on interpretation.
Shias believe that true Islam was maintained by the 12 Imams (father and son successors of Ali, the first Imam) - Asna Ashuri (12 ers) are the majority of Shiites from Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, India, the Gulf. Ismaili (7 ers) are an offshoot and found in Pakistan, India, and previously were the majority in Egypt during the Fatimid Caliphate.
Shias believe that the last Imam, Imam Mahdi, did not die and will return to spread justice just before the end of the world.


Sunnis believe that Abu Baker, Omar, Uthman, and Ali were properly selected as the first four Caliphs.
Sunnis believe that Islamic Law is based on the Holy Koran and the Sunnah (tradition of the Holy Propohet (PBUH)) and is not subject to further modification.
Sunnis supported the caliphate of Muawiyah and his son Yazid and their descendants that formed the Ommayad dynasty.
Sunnis supported the Abbasid Caliphate, another hereditary dynasty.
Sunnis supported the Ottomans as Caliphs, another hereditary dynasty.

Over the years, some minor differences in rituals (the position of arms during prayer, time for breaking fast, funeral rites) have taken place between the two major divisions. But these differences also occur within each sect among their various offshoots.

#31 by masadi on January 2, 2007 8:48am PT


``Pakistanis`` are just as much guilty of the blood of 3 million Bengalis (the numbers that you throw out are still contested)


That`s right comrade...tht number is contested...however, the blame for the 600K dead iraqis, most of whom have been killed in shia-sunni violence, lies on america...that can`t be contested..no siree...

SC writes <<< Masadi Sahib,
Eid Mubarak and Happy New Year to you, my friend. Now, as for who is to blame, don`t you agree that at some point, we Muslims need to take responsibility over our own environment? >>>

Eid Mubarak and HNY to you as well. You are confusing public issues having to do with social institutions with ``personal`` responsibility. When the institutions of a country are designed to operate in a particular fashion, no `personal responsibility` can achieve anything except personal sacrifice and slaughter. When Muslims become conscious of the true issues that affect their lives more will be able to take `personal responsibility` towards meaningful ends. Right now they are busy with petty differences which are exploited by those that ensure that Muslim instutions do not serve Muslim people but serve the West.

Jang writes <<< Masadi, why should the people and the society not be blamed? the leaders do not come from a vaccum. pakistani leadership in not un-representative, it represents the will of many of its people. >>>

Amazing, now coups and rule by force is defined as ``representative``. The military as an institution has no part in the political but unfortunately in Pakistan it defines the political. You have absolutely no proof that the rule by this military tyrant defines the will of the people of Paksitan. Even in the atmosphere where these people are offered little hope and little choice people reject these tyrants when given the opportunity.

#38 by masadi on January 2, 2007 10:12am PT

conrade...didn`t you read it in the news...a majority of pakis(and bangladeshis) don`t believe in democracy...which explains why they were dancing when el-presidente heroically, harrison ford style, rescued himself from a hijacking and took over the country....

#37 arjun writes <<< however, the blame for the 600K dead iraqis, most of whom have been killed in shia-sunni violence, lies on america...that can`t be contested..no siree... >>

You posts progess from stupidity to ignorance, every successive post beats the previous one in being dimwitted. If universities, like the ones that come up with the Iraq dead had conducted those studies and come up with the numbers and not only the victims claiming the numbers killed (a biased source) then there would be little contest in those numbers. That however is not the case.

Regarding the blame of the Iraq dead, these occurred in the post US invasion period when the US was the overlord in Iraq. If Saddam can be held responsible for deaths in his period the blame for the country-wide deaths in the US/US puppet thugs time lies on the US, not to mention that these killings are the direct result of the war and how it destroyed civil society in Iraq and deliberately played one group against the other, and let me remind you that both Shias and Sunnis are going to lose in this game the US is playing...

Masadi, it is the same woe is me and blame-displacement mantra that uneducated of your ranks have been spewing from day one. Never to take responsibility but always to find faults some place else. Why can’t you admit that it is your filthy faith that has yielded such results. You guys are more worried about who the last prophet is, and what sky Allah lives in, and less about progress and human rights. George Bushes of the world serve you well. The day your Ummah protests in streets of Cairo and Lahore over suicide Sunni bombers in Iraq, and Palestinian terrorists, Holocaust deniers, your words might resonate with the world, until then, go eat some goat.

Re: # 32

It is a good thesis; however,on one side if it is debateable whether Pakistani leadership is representative or not but there is no doubt that it is in US. Therefore, contrary to masadis 31, Us population is absolutely responsible for the genocide of 650K Iraqis and maintaining a slaughter house in the occupied Palestine and many attrocities around the globe. With an access to all media including internet to overwhelming majority of the population in US, they cannot be given benefit of doubt. Please keep in mind that about 80% of them supported the butchering of Iraq and despite Abu Gariab, death squads, torture cells, extraordinary renditions of human beings from all parts of the planet, and torture centers like gitmo they chose to elect the whole cadre of the buthchers of Iraq once again. The current change of heart on Iraq is not because of some inherent goodness in their hearts but because of the realization of the fact that they cannot win this war and every passing day brings more disgrace and defeat to their country.

Re: #35 In other words meaningless things that are used by those that want to harm Muslims, even though the Quran warned Muslims that those who break up their deen and become sects are like idolators and you have ``no concern with them``. All this difference and not using your sense and the Quran is what has become the opium of the Muslim masses as they lose all sense of morality and justify slaughter of each other for these ``formulas`` that have no justification in the Quran. That is all the ``theology`` I am willing to discuss

Anglo/America the mighty created him and destroyed him. They have written and dictated the history of Asia since the 17th century. Another pawn died when he became of no use.

Pawn is a more approriate term for the tinpot dictators of the world who are used to colonize the former colonies. They are remote controls whose buttons are pushed by these European powers.

Urstruly writes <<< Therefore, contrary to masadis 31, Us population is absolutely responsible for the genocide of 650K Iraqis and maintaining a slaughter house in the occupied Palestine and many attrocities around the globe. With an access to all media including internet to overwhelming majority of the population in US, they cannot be given benefit of doubt. >>>

Your ``thesis`` assumes that the US is a democratic system where people make the choices, the media gives great information, and the internet can be a check on this media if need be. All assumptions are incorrect. The US is not a democracy, the elite that decide are far removed from the people. The people are controlled through polite means using moral symbols of nationalism, and when given proper information they do correct their position as swings in polls often reveal. I do not hold the US public responsible for the Iraq deaths, as a whole, that is because regardless of what they want the US elite would do whatever it saw fit in Iraq, not to mention those that openly opposed the war inspite of the media which is something worthy of respect.

kaurasach writes <<< Pawn is a more approriate term for the tinpot dictators of the world who are used to colonize the former colonies. They are remote controls whose buttons are pushed by these European powers. >>>

In this new form of colonization, they don`t need to ``push buttons``. The institutions they have set in place ensure that these ``tinpot dictators``, operate on auto pilot, any glitch in this automatic system is apltly fixed for the sake of ``human rights`` by killing more than the ones they were claiming to save...

kulharee writes <<< Why can’t you admit that it is your filthy faith that has yielded such results. You guys are more worried about who the last prophet is, and what sky Allah lives in, and less about progress and human rights. >>>

I cannot admit something that is untrue. The only thing filthy is your intellect and your morality, of which you have no sense. Those that are worried about differences in theology and make sects based on those are ``no concern of mine``- as the Quran tells me, Allah will decide between them. What I am concerned with is your biased/prejudiced/rank racist assigning of blame based on nonsense evidence and totally absolving the real culprits whose crimes are open books for all to see, covered up by a flimsy shroud of ``progress and human rights``- when they don`t respect either except for their own tiny little group...

Re: # 36

Salim

Please read your post again and look at the nature of differences that you have cited; half of them are untrue anyway. But the point that I am trying to make here is that Shia-ism is nothing but a cult which is cultivated on the mantra of hatered based on the events that happened 1500 years ago - right or wrong. The fact of the matter is that I will lay down my life for the honor of Ali (ra) or any ahl-e-bait, just like any Muslim, then why a shia child is raised on the basis of hatered for his fellow Muslim.

Personally, I have nothing to do in the matters of selection or election of caliphs that happened 15 centuries ago, then why such hatered for me? Hell, even my ancestors have nothing to do with the whole debacle. Why do this battle of caliphate is still being faught in subcontinent-please explain. At the time when battle for caliphates were being fought in Arabia my great great grandpa lord Ram was mired in the troubles of his own. The then emperor of sri lanka, had kidnapped grandma. It took long time to recover grandma even though grandpa had help from the chief minister of tamil nado, who happened to be a monkey at that time. So I appeal to your good sense to get out of this cult mindset and let human beings live in peace. Say no to cult - say no to tunnel vision.