From Tribalism to Humanism

Re: # 129

tahmed,

....... who said humanists cannot be crooks ?.......... but they are small fry and relatively benign compared to the popes, presidents and prophets (real ones who actually talk to god) ..............

#128 ``pure humanism``? as opposed to ``impure humanism``?? that makes as much sense as hamidm`s self-contradictory post.

but carry on...dont let me interfere with these profound thoughts. :-)

#126 hamidm: so, per your post, mahesh yogi was a humanist and a crook, at the same time. You get to pick one only.

hamidm2

That is so right. That`s why pure humanism can never defend itself (it suffers from a natural auto-immune deficiency).

Re: # 126

kaal mian,

.......... humanism cannot succeed simply because there is no money or power in it for most people ........... crooks like maharishi mahesh yoga and shri rajneesh managed to convince a few thousand fools to part with their money, but they could never hope to muster the support of millions of people like the mullahs and presidents who beat the drums of religion and patriotism .............

..........humainsm is small business compared to corporate tribalism ........... and besides, it just doesn`t appeal to human nature - it is silly to expect ohio state and university of michigan to have a friendly football game in which everyone wins ............ from early childhood we learn that for you to win, someone has to lose .............

........... and most people, living rather insignificant lives in the shadows, get a perverse pleasure out of belonging to a group and identifying with a `cause` that gives their pathetic lives some meaning ............ religion is the biggest beneficiary of this human weakness .........

Zee ustaad, what a coincidence/good fortune to read that. Woke up this morning thinking something very similar:

Faith, when it goes horribly wrong, will become religious BDSM (Bondage-Domination-Sado-machism) chamber, incapable of any real change or genuine relief. Humanism when it goes horribly wrong, will quickly die on drugs or of auto-immune deficiency.

Aaah, need to brew me some morning coffee...

... contd ...

So let`s ponder upon where the humanism of the Hippies went wrong. Why did it disappear? Was it the drugs or the music or the problems with parenting and responsibility? Can humanism succeed now if these elements are removed but the spirit retained? And how? Another sub-culture perhaps, but can humanism be achieved without sacrificing the family system and value systems? Or is there a universal value system (other than the usual platitudes) which can be adopted as a value system while dispensing with religions` influence?

Another prophet will be needed to answer the above. But haven`t there been hundreds of thousands of those already? Would another one be able to convince mankind of the benefits to be derived from the `asli tey wadda` humanism? Dr. Timothy Leary certainly failed on that count.

Cheers.

In any event, humanism was tried as a sub-culture and did gain tremendous momentum during the 60s with the Hippie movement and their communal marriages and communal offspring, free love, flower power and the rest. I guess that spirit is what the good doctor has discovered somehow without being aware it is nothing new, and that there`re still `gatherings of the tribes` (yes ... that`s what they call it) of the remnants of the Hippie movement all over USA and Europe.

My complaint with the doctor`s articles is that they are routinely shallow and devoid of historical references or present day parallels. Just his opinions on his personal emotional journey in pursuit of `love` (whatever the heck that emotion means if not tribal ...).

#120 by hamidm2

...are you suggesting that `spiritual` people like ayman zawhiri and obl who wear the dark mark of their spirituality on their foreheads ...

This remark is examplary of the misguided perception that islamophobes have about the persona of the aforesaid gentlemen.

There`s a BBC documentary running these days titled ``Time to talk to Al-Qaida?``. In it a Harvard professor, expert on the subject, is asked re ``what does Al-Qaida want?`` He names three things specifically as below:

1) End of US complicity with Israel against Palestinians.

2) End to US support of authoritarian/dictatorial regimes in the Islamic world.

3) Withdrawal of all US troops from all Islamic countries.

That`s it. Nothing more or less. Where do you see any `dark mark of their spirituality on their foreheads` in these demands?

Some Islamophobists like Blair add an additional angle i.e. establishment of a Caliphate, which is not OBL`s objective. It is though of a small group based in the UK named Hazb Al Tahreer, which is non-violent. It is certainly not OBL/Zawahiri`s objective.

BTW, the documentary advocates talking to them because it is not OBL or the likes who can be crushed by military means, it is a political movement with political solutions.

And yes, OBL/Zawahiri are tribal, just as entire Islam is tribal, but no different from any other small or large groupings of loyalties, and there`s no escaping that. (Pls note Khurram`s posts).

Therefore, I agree with you completely on the central thesis being discussed here. I fully endorse your view that a child is born into a tribe, and nothing will change that. I also agree that there`s not a single humanist or universalist gene in man ... evolution (or God ... take your pick) took care of that while establishing the food-chain.

Re Paris Hilton ... she`ld have her own tribe ... everyone does!

A video of Paris Hilton having sex with God will make a lot of people very religious very fast.

---

Hope this won`t put ideas into the heads of some religious friends. Otherwise such videos would soon start being shipped out by the millions, as another ``proof`` of a ``Loving God.`` :)

#120 hamidm: do you have any doubts that paris hilton (even with her internet video) is anywhere as primitive as zawahiri or ben laden? i dont see paris hilton gloating over the death of people, e.g.

Re: # 118

zeemax,

...... are you suggesting that `spiritual` people like ayman zawhiri and obl who wear the dark mark of their spirituality on their foreheads are less `tribal` than paris hilton who wouldn`t recognize god even if she had sex with him ?

hamidm; while united manchester fans may get into drunken brawls, manchester stars go to the highest bidder (as in beckham and his $1 million a week salary for next 5 years with LA galaxy. that is what the good doctor is talking about.

the primitives brawl over their clubs/religions/ethnicities; the enlightened ones bend it like beckham and have a good life, ``with malice towards none``.

.............. how do you explain this hostility against a purlple dinosaur ?

Read #64 & #75.

dr sohail,

............ inspite of the fact that i raised my children to love dinosaurs and hindoos, i was really shocked when my daughter, who was six years old at that time, came home from school singing :

I hate you!

You hate me!

Let`s hang Barney from a tree!

With a knife through his back and a gun to his head,

Pull the trigger, Barney`s dead!



.............. how do you explain this hostility against a purlple dinosaur ?

drink beer, get drunk and beat the crap out of the other guy


dr sohail,

.......... i hate to tell you, but this this article is a piece of mealy-mouthed crap that might appeal to wusses and nerds and lily-livered pusillanimous `scholars` who are out of touch with the bloody reality of life ..........

............ tribalism is the natural state of man and hyena ......... think about it: man is born into a family, even if he is the illegitimate son of god - and what do you think a family is? .... it is simply a small tribe which protects the baby from being eaten by the tribe (family) next door ........... and the baby grows up belonging to one group or another that is often at war with some other group ......... as a school boy he teams up with his `friends` to beat up other kids from the other tribe during recess or after school ....... and if that doesn`t happen, the school organizes a soccer match against a `rival` school so that the kids can beat up on each other under adult supervision ............. as an adult he might join a political party so that he can rough up folks belonging to the other party and, if he is really ambitious, he joins the army so that he can kill people from the other tribe ........... if nothing else, he becomes a united manchester fan so that he can get into drunken brawls with other football tribals .........

....... the humanism gene simply does not exist ........