From Tribalism to Humanism

Re: # 80 yes, that is why I left #79 incomplete....and is implicit in one of the questions

``2) ... What matters is that when there is conflict...between our families and tribes and humanity at large...do we act only protecting our tribe...such mental set I call TRIBALISM.

But, why do you dump all religions of the world in this category? And why do you think your humanism requires `freedom from religion`?
Are you aware of the Christian roots of modern western humanism?

#79 not true. even right now the nations of the world (US, EU, China and to a lesser extent Japan and Russia) have serious money earmarked for exactly this purpose. and we know a lot about these resources:

e.g. the mineral value alone of just the asteroid belt between mars and jupiter has been calculated to be worth trillions and trillions of dollars. add to that the materials in the rest of the solar system - giant planets and scores of moons some almost the size of earth, the millions of objects in the kuiper belt, and the massive energy generatd by the sun itself - all this is within reach.

if this ``tribal mindset`` was not diverting resources into wars, those resources would be going towards these true frontiers - mankind`s control of the solar system, curing disease and prolonging life...

iron_mask,

You`re going down a really slippery slope. Have you decided what describes a human and what describes a resource first? Is it possible that humans may themselves be a resource? Or a resource which you consider non-human may actually be human? Have you ever seen tears in the eyes of an animal? I have. Are there wilting willows and Raat-Ki-Raani?

Real slippery slope ...

#78 that is in the realms of speculation - since
(a) we do not know what type the resources are?
(b) we do not know how of what is there can be exploited right now?
(c) we do not know how to exploit what we have not encountered in terms of resources ?

#77 on resources: if human beings stopped squabbling over the land and wealth, they would be able to focus on the vast resources of the solar system, compared to which the planet earth is a drop in the ocean.

In other words, even the most greedy of matkas would realize that resources are virtually limitless. And humans can aim for things that are far, far more rewarding than merely ``getting wealthy``.

dr sohail, I have read your article many times these past few hours (okay I do have some time on hand). You have an interesting way of putting things (and this includes your interacts).

What intrigues me, are a number of things, (see #69 to Kaalchakra for example). You have also left out a very important componenet of the equation, namely resources. All fo the fights are for resources and who these resources can be equitably distributed (not equally). Unless and until you take this into account, all the bright ideas can be chucked out of the window. No.

Ramchandar,

Do come back when you`re sober ... LoL !

#71 by drsohail

1) ... there are a number of psychologists who call `spiritual experiences` as `peak experiences` and show that those peak experiences can be experienced by any human being even those who have no faith in God or follow any religions.

Of-course, even though I didn`t bring up spiritual experiences - just spirituality. You`re probably referring to experiences like NDEs and you`re right that such experiences happen to anyone. But that was not the point.

2) ... What matters is that when there is conflict...between our families and tribes and humanity at large...do we act only protecting our tribe...such mental set I call TRIBALISM.

So in the tribe of the small fish in the evolved food-chain, for sake of the `fish` tribe at large, the small fish should be happily eaten by the tribe of the big fish, because that`s `humanism` in the overall fish community, irrespective of size, creed, colour and all the rest. Is that it Sir? Or is there a problem with my mindset.

Now I`m even more confused than I was before .. you`re not helping me at all Doc.

addendum to #73
in the second case it is ridiculous to talk of humanism.......

Re: # 69

kaalchakra you are asking for an answer to a question which in itself is many layered.

``Is your tribalism a mindset, a personality, an individual-level emotion/behavior, group/tribal behavior, a philosophy, an ideology, religion in general, some group of religions, one particular religion? ``

And somewhere in there is the word ``philosophy``. Surely this is the highest layer. It is this which dictates to all other definitions. Let me explain:

starting with the individual, he or shehas a mindset which dictates his/her emotions. Taken as group thisgets modified to accomodate others mindsets. Religion imposes a rationale (if youcouldcall it that) of the dominant mindset on the whole group (or groups) thus making the ``concept of accomodation`` moot upto a point. When many groups with many religions come together, you get an interesting dynamic. I
f they are already accomodating, you get a debate and a philosophical outcome - which is essentially a rationalisation of everything from the individual mindset, to a groups mindset to the mindsets of groups. At this point the outcome has to be perforce humanistic.
If on the other hand they are not accomodating, you end up in a never ending crusade to figure out which isthe dominant religion. Philosophy and argument and rationale go out of the window. What remains is the law of the brute?

``There is one kind of people who will be closest to God on the Day of Final Judgement - they will be even closer to Him than the prophets and the martyrs. It will be those people who found each other as complete strangers but then established relationships and friendship with each other; their friendship deepened and they became so close to each other that they helped each other emotionally and financially if need be and they started feeling pain of the other and they stood by each other through thick and thin. Blessed are they``


...........Holy Prophet Mohammad (pbuh)


Dr. Sohail

There is a reason that some people scoff at some of the ideals of humanism, when they are presented as the next best thing after the sliced bread. Pahleez.

Re: # 64
dear zeemax....words can be misleading and since we are having a verbal dialogue here

we may not be able to fully communicate our ideas because of the limitation of words and

their traditional meanings. let me give it one more try.

for example i am of the opinion that `spirituality` has been traditionally associated with god

and religion but in 20th century there are a number of psychologists who call `spiritual

experiences` as `peak experiences` and show that those peak experiences can be

experienced by any human being even those who have no faith in God or follow any

religions. Neurologists are also showing that those experiences can be experienced by

stimulating Right Temporal Lobes. I have discussed that issue in my earlier

article...Science, Psychology, Spirituality

and shared my position that as a Humanist I believe that spirituality is part of Humanity

and not part of Divinity. My opinion is that human beings are gradually evolving with their

experiences and becoming wiser. Such wise people are developing COMPASSION and that

COMPASSION is not only for their own family and tribe but all families and tribes and see

all humanity as part of human family and human tribe. Whether you call it thinking

global....universal love.....`spirituality....humanism....to me does not matter. What matters

is that when there is conflict...between our families and tribes and humanity at large...do

we act only protecting our tribe...such mental set I call TRIBALISM [you can call whatever

you prefer] or we act keeping the whole humanity in mind [...such mental set I call

HUMANISM [you can call whatever you choose]. But there is a significant difference is such

mental sets, mental attitudes, such personalities and lifestyles from a psychological and

social level and that difference is going to decide between our regression or progression,

collective suicide or living long, violence or peace as a species in the next few centuries.

sincerely sohail

ps...this discussion is inspiring me to write another article for www.chowk.com for future

dialogue. thanks for the inspiration

It`s OK, ramchander. Idolatry is a very interesting thing - in how it completely enslaves the human mind and destroys the mind`s ability to function independently. If you have been thinking about it, please do write more.

Trivialism to Even More Trivialism

On every return visit to this article, one finds it more trivial than one originally assumed. Now it is beginning to read a lot like another spin of an ersatz and despicable religious doctrine that everyone should detest.

I am trying hard to be a sympathetic reader, Dr. Sahib. Is the problem here that you didn`t clearly define what you mean by tribalism? Is your tribalism a mindset, a personality, an individual-level emotion/behavior, group/tribal behavior, a philosophy, an ideology, religion in general, some group of religions, one particular religion?

These different defintions should make your analysis and its conclusions very different.

Ref#67

Dear Kaal

You may be right. It may be the effect of bit of red wine.