Do Pakistanis deserve a democratic system?

#187 Hamidm2

Mian H2, it is easy enough to respond to this interact. All I need to do is to re-present the following interact from a past board.

Therefore, peshe-khidmat hai!

Listen H2 – the light-gas, actually you are as much, if not more, one of the “homies” of Allah as the Zee.

You share the same damn characteristics of liking all the wrong things – like liking the TB-infested vamp Jinnah, like liking his prejudice against Hindus, like liking his screwed up sense of Muslim supremacy and like liking his apartheid of making a distinction among people based on whether they are Muslims or not!

You have the same crappy attitudes, the same crappy perverted “Muslim” prejudices and the whole crappy shebang that goes with it!

With one important exception!

Unlike the Zee and the Boomer and the Truly and even wolf Naqshi – who are open with their Islamic prejudice, you are trying to cover your modesty by giving the airs of a liberal!

You are no darn liberal – you are as much of a fraudulent liberal as the Manto is and as the dead man Jinnah was!

For anybody who truly believes in “all men are created equal” will NEVER turn around and malign Hindus with such pleasure to the point of ultimate self-arousal, as you do!

And like all the dishonest Pakistanis here, you try to use very limited cover to hide your “modesty” - like Draupadi trying to cover herself after her own mian (like your Jinnah) had gambled it all – and lost it all – such a moron!

There is no Krishna for your rescue, you fat cat!

The nakedness of your hypocrisy shows to everybody more plainly than the green fraud the Mushy keeps stuffing into the rears of the Pakistani awaam on a day in and day out basis. And for your information, the closest the Kashmiris will ever come to “unification” with the land of the Pure will be when courtesy of the Indians, Kashmiri apple or some other fruitcake gets stuffed into the same location!

Which the Pakistanis have no choice but to “enjoy” – just like they enjoy the painful experiences from the Mushy presently!

#180 by Mantolives on January 15, 2007 6:55am PT


Yes... the Bengali count is still on.. the body count in that goes up every year.But it turns out that your Indian scholar Sarmila Bose went around proving that the figures were simply an exaggeration.


What did Sarmila Bose write about the prosecution of paki armymen(or lack thereof) for all those killings?

bj,

...... please don`t insult me by claiming to be `my people` ....... i have already admitted that great grandpa gopinath was a horrible hindoo, but since then we have tried to bleed out the bad genes by marrying pathans, germans and even an english laundry woman ......... that is why we call ourself pakis - those of pure blood .......... what do we have to do to convince you guys that we don`t want anything to do with you ? ......... all we want is for ya`ll to settle the unfinished business of kashmir so that we can all get on with our lives .......... is it that hard to understand ?

....... by the way, thanks for introducing me to the hon adolphus towns - the man is incredible and i am seriously thinking of having a fund raiser for him in detroit !

#184:

BTW, Jinnah would also have a more practical reason for stopping communal riots in Karachi during 1948. Gandhi`s assasination had brought communal peace in India but communal killings in Karachi would have had the potential of re-igniting communal riots in India and causing another mass exodus of Muslims, which Pakistan could ill afford at that time. Whether or not this was a motivation for Jinnah, he ought to get the credit where credit is due.

........the impact of partition violence on pakistanis and their next generation was (is) significantly higher than that on indians.........one cannot even remotely compare the two.....

......the reasons are simple......india, as a whole, really didn`t get divided.......only punjab and bengal did (and kashmir)......punjab and bengal constituted a very small fraction of the future indian population.........while they constituted nearly all of future pakistan`s population........

......in addition, another major pakistani community, i.e. muhajirs literally migrated from india and hence were the worst affectees........

.........it will thus be common to find pakistanis whose families were, in some way affected by the partition and its violence......while it will be difficult to find indian families........on this site alone, i am quite sure, nearly every pakistani had someone close to them who was directly affected, as most of the pakistani here are punjabis and muhajirs.......yet i doubt too many indians on this site had anyone who was directly affected........only punjabi and bengali indias - a tiny % of overall india - would have had someone affected.......

...........both my parents came in from india......one by ship and one by road.........my wife`s grandmother lost two of her siblings........they have never been heard from since........my grandfathher left his life`s earnings in kashmir and migrated, including a fully furnished house........

........this will be very common for pakistanis.......% wise, around 80-90% of pakistan`s population was directly affected, as it was in punjab and bengal...........while probably less than 10% (?) of india`s population must have been affected......

..........community-wise the largest affect must have been on sikhs..........they were affected more than even muslims - culturally, physically, religiously, socially etc..........and i can understand their complains.........actually the largest affect would be on kashmiris, as they are still suffering..........

having said that.........i cannot figure out why sikhs did not accept jinnah`s offer of an autonomous state, when they would only later go and fight for one in 1984.......

needless to say that the affects of partition and reasons behind it are not what they are taught in india and pakistan.........one needs to keep an open mind and look at historical facts and figures and then reach conclusions.........

on the whole, indians (barring sikhs and dost-mittar etc.) were hardly affected by the partition......as nearly all of india remained geographically isolated and intact.......pakistanis, were devestated by the partiiton, at a personal level........since punjabis, bengalis (and to a smaller % muhajirs) were a gigantic % of pakistanis........

Hi Manto:

Although I respect Wolpert as a good researcher, I have a built-in preference for primary sources over secondary sources and multiple lines of evidence over single evidence. Therefore, I pay more credence to Hira Gulrajani`s letter or Jenkin`s words than to what comes from secondary sources. It is clear from Gulrajani` letter as well as other sources of information -for example Sri Prakasa`s account- that Jinnah did, indeed, try to protect minorities in Karachi during 1948 (I believe that Karachi remained more or less calm during August 1947). However, this was like bolting the barn after most of the horses had literally left through the other door.

That Suhrawardi and Sarat Bose had explored the idea of a united Bengal has been frequently mentioned elsewhere also (however, so little is said about this that I suspect that it was not something seriously pursued beyond a casual conversation or two). Moreover, this seems to come generally from secondary sources; I never read anything from Sarat Bose himself on this issue although I was quite an adult when Sarat Bose was alive and still active in Indian politics (I believed he was involved in the Forward Block). I also know that whenever this issue is discussed, the only name that gets mentioned is that of Sarat Bose, so I suspect that he was perhaps a loner who did not have the support of the Hindu masses, and unlike his famous brother, Sarat was not a very prominent figure in Bengal.

I have not read Zaheer`s account but it stands to reason that the communists would support any party opposed to feudals, and Muslim leagues was perhaps the only party opposing the feudal-led Unionist. I am not well versed in the Punjab politics of that era but I think that by 1947, ML and Unionists were together and the Congress, with all its faults, was not a party of the feudals. Since you consider the Congress to be a hindu party, Hindus were not the feudals in the Punjab and the earlier Congress support to the Unionists could only be of a tactical type, just as the communists and other leftists join the Congress against the common enemy, the BJP, in India today although they disagree with most of its policies. BTW, regardless of the stand of the communists in Punjab, none of the Hindu communists stayed behind, unlike Muslim communists in India or that famous Sindhi Hindu communists (I forget his name) who carried on his fight for workers in Pakistan and refused to go to India despite the efforts of the Pakistani police to urge him to leave.

#182 Lapdog

Go Screw yourself!


#170 Tauheed sahib

I will get around to that answer soon. Right now, got to do some household chores. :(

... even injuns agree he`s a plagiarist ... do check out the thread on UP ...

Good night.

Re: # 178

Yes... the Bengali count is still on.. the body count in that goes up every year.But it turns out that your Indian scholar Sarmila Bose went around proving that the figures were simply an exaggeration.

However... the way we treated our Eastern Brothers was exactly the way Hindus had treated Muslims in United India... and had we acquiesced to their demands ala 1940 Resolution... everyone would have been spared a lot of embarrassment.

#170 by tahmed32

You`re expecting a reliable answer from a known plagiariser?

#174 by Mantolives on January 15, 2007 6:21am PT



Jinnah by comparison to all these gentlemen remained committed to bringing Hindus an Muslims together


Yeah..Pakiland brought them together..into the muslim fold...that is why Pakiland is 97% muslim..



emphasising the protection of minorities at all costs.


Duh..he should have emphasized the protection of majorities too..when a whole bunch of bengalis were killed in 71, with the body count being more than have died in India in the last 60 years, the bengalis were a majority...

BTW: we`re still waiting for you to give us some links on successful paki women like Indra Nooyi...public information please..nothing from the PIOMPA list...

Dear Tahmed,

Please read 168 again.

It confirms what has been noted in several books on the issue... Jinnah ordered the shooting of Muslim rioters who were attacking Hindus and it was done. This did not happen once but several times.

Good that you acknowledge that the other side didn`t do anything to bring the perpetrators of violence to justice. As for Jinnah- who was morally a much higher person than Gandhi or Nehru- bringing those responsible to justice... let us forget that after March 1948, Jinnah was bed ridden almost till his death later that year... it was impossible to bring killers to justice when entire communities on both sides were involved.

What we should be looking at is the efforts of government functionaries... Jinnah, Sir Francis Mudie and Mian Iftikharuddin come out as sterling heroes for the way they brought order to chaos and brought killings to a complete halt. It was a super human effort infact ... but no one bothers to read history.

It is however true that Francis Mudie came to the conclusion that he had to send all Hindus to East Punjab after a certain point to save their lives... but even this he reported to Jinnah would be a temporary situation and they would be allowed to come back once the dust settles... However... Jinnah was no more after 11th September and Mudie ceased to be the governor soon after.

#173 dot; greetings my friend. happy new year.

What you write is no doubt part of the truth. It is however also the truth that misguided policies of socialism contributed greatly to keeping third world economies stagnant after independence in the second half of the 20th century. Only the fall of the Soviet Union made it unfashionable to denounce capitalism (and thus have the effect of discouraging entrepreneurs, the true economic movers and shakers in society).

#168 I agree with what you say, and no doubt Jinnah was appalled at the savagery of 1947. But please see #167 below and tell me if I am wrong in saying that Jinnah did not do anything to go after the perpetrators (as did no one else ever since on either side, but that does not make it right).

I suspect that a careful study of history would indicate that it was a combination of 1. the eagerness of the Congress (including Gandhi) to get the brits out that led the Congress to make some fundamental mistakes (e.g. the ``Quit India`` movement, which made the brits less receptive to Congress calls on the other big issue, namely partition; and then by hastening the british departure which led to the breakdown of law and order); and 2. the eagerness of the british to get out once they decided to let go of their Indian colony.

No matter who is to blame, the fact remains that perhaps 12 million people on both sides of the border suffered and half a million died. There is no Holocaust Museum for these people (hindus, sikhs, muslims), no tears shed, no national outcry. No poets have bothered to write about them.

That generation, on both sides, has lived with its traumatic memories and almost died out. Those are the people who deserve your attention much more than these gandhi and jinnah who never suffered as any of those 12 million!!