Do Pakistanis deserve a democratic system?

#169 TAHMED32, happy new year. Nehru`s socialism and the 4% growth which resulted was approrpiate for those times. Note: Indian situation at that was not different from the one in Pakistan right now. The land holdings were skewed, illiteracy was rife, feudalism had a great hold on the nation. To create a modern economy and society, people have to feel equal, and needto be empowered. Those initial days, were just the initial conditions for growth to come later. Today, in many parts of India you sense a certain dynamism and a can do atitude. these would not have come about were it not for the socialism and the affirmative actions espoused by Nehru and his generation.

Today many kids can think of doingmuch better than their parents because of awareness and empowerment. that is a big positive. ou have to keep in mind the initial conditions in the first half of thezoth century.

Re: # 169

Here is the problem with this suggestion.

In 1947 ... Pakistan`s Sir Zafrullah Khan raised the issue of genocide in Punjab in the UN. It was raised to bring to the attention of the world. He did not say that only Muslims were being killed... V P Menon almost hit the roof. He declared that the violence at partition was merely communal disturbances...

It turns out that ... while indeed there was violence on our side... the mass scale butchery happened only in India and with a specific intention.

Therefore... the Bab-e-Pakistan monument to the martyrs of 1947 being built in Lahore is quite enough for the purpose of recognising the real victims of the butchery of 1947.

Re: # 166 and the post by the other blood clot idiot...

The world once believed the earth was flat... too you know. It does not matter what the world thinks... it is more important to know what Gandhi really was:

Good old African American politician Edolphus Towns... elected representative from New York to the US Congress for 24 years...

He is at it again...


HON. EDOLPHUS TOWNS
OF NEW YORK
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
TUESDAY, JANUARY 9, 2007
Mr. TOWNS. Madam Speaker, I have recently encountered a book entitled Gandhi: Behind the Mask of Divinity, which sheds new light on the founder of India . The author, Colonel G. B. Singh, USA, portrays Mohandas Gandhi as a person who was more interested in advancing his own group than in the advancement of all people. Using Gandhi`s own words, Colonel Singh portrays a very different Gandhi than you and I have been told about. Colonel Singh argues that the Gandhi we have been told about isn`t the real Gandhi. He writes that he hopes that his book will stimulate discussion and provoke people to think about who Mohandas Gandhi really was. Since Gandhi is considered the father of the Indian nation, understanding his character is essential to understanding India.
Colonel Singh`s book is definitely controversial, but it is an important contribution to a full understanding of this important
historical character. Madam Speaker, there is an excerpt from the book`s introduction on the back cover, which has been reproduced, and I would like to introduce that two-paragraph excerpt into the Record at this time to give a flavor of the book and encourage people to broaden their perspective on Gandhi.

FROM THE INTRODUCTION TO GANDHI: BEHIND THE MASK OF DIVINITY
(By G.B. Singh)
Over the years I have discussed Gandhi with many Americans, both formally and informally. ..... What continues to irk me is the amount of Gandhi “propaganda material`` that has flooded our libraries and bookstores. For an unsuspecting Westerner, the reading of Gandhi as he is portrayed on these shelves can bring about the intended result. That is understandable. This book is an attempt to close the gap between the popularized Gandhi and the historical Gandhi. This book will incite readers to be more open-minded and to seek to validate the “truths`` presented. My hope is that it will provoke honest, healthy, and open dialogue and foster more scrutiny about him.....

Years of dedicated research on Gandhi convinced me that our hero was fundamentally a racist. In this book, I present the facts. The evidence presented here is not a matter of speculation or distorted interpretation. Much of the irrefutable evidence lay buried beneath a mountain of Gandhi`s own writings--in his own words, which I have uncovered--comments that will be difficult to dispute once they are read. In this book you will read the evidence in its entirety. My primary intention is to untangle the web that Gandhi weaved--and his followers are still weaving--for many years. Only through a methodical probing can we expose Gandhi`s campaign of deception: the lies, the propaganda, the misinformation, the half-truths, and the effort to hide behind religion. Where Gandhi left off, his followers have picked up, and they continue their own sophisticated campaigns, both in India
and abroad. The book should not be looked upon as another Gandhi biography. Rather, it should provide a standard by which to weigh the Gandhi literature for accuracy and objectivity. Also, this book, though narrowly focused, should stand as a guide alerting us to how thoroughly the Gandhi propagandists and others have succeeded in deceiving us.


Gandhi once said `` Be the change that you want to see in the world``. Don`t grudge me for wanting to expose Gandhi`s fraud.

bjkumar: I await patiently, bj, for the answer to my question on why exactly the creation of Pakistan was a folly. :-)

dost mittar: I agree that there should be some kind of a memorial to those killed or who were forced to flee on both sides of the border in 1947. Perhaps instead of leaning on the two governments to do this, such a monument should be built based by funding raised from individual Indians and Pakistanis. That would require a significant commitment in time and effort on someone`s part.... (something to think about).

As for Nehru vs Patel, I dont think Nehru can ever be considered as having been popular in Pakistan. He personified the Indian occupation of Kashmir (as Pakistanis saw it), and did not represent anything much beyond that in Pakistan. As far as I can tell, Nehru of course is much more than that, both on the negative side (his misplaced love for socialism that stagnated the Indian economy for 3-4 decades and which led to jokes among development economists of the ``hindu rate of growth`` of 4% in the GNP), and on the positive side (his wellplaced emphasis on western education, leading to the development of IITs, causing India to be well placed to benefit from the IT revolution and to thus get its economy moving at a brisk pace).

How do you know this for sure... just because unlike Gandhi, Jinnah was not a drama doesn`t mean he didn`t make some real solid efforts....

THERE has been quite an uproar over Mr L. K. Advani’s statements while in Pakistan about Mr M. A. Jinnah’s secular outlook. I wonder if what I had witnessed in Karachi during the riots in the first week of January 1948 would throw some light on the subject.

I forget the exact date — Jan 6 or 10, l948 — when riots broke out in Karachi and Hindus were at the receiving end. They were being killed and their houses looted. This went on for three days. Three attempts were made on us at our first floor house in Trikona (Triangular) Park area near Artillery Maidan. A nawab family on the second floor, who had migrated from Lucknow protected by their Hindu neighbours, saved us.

On the fourth day and not a day too soon, I was passing the Eidgah Maidan when I found Jinnah Sahib addressing the crowds. He had passionately spoken for about 10 to 15 minutes. He had his famous “Jinnah cap” in his hands upside down, extended towards the crowds, imploring them to desist from bloodshed and not to make Hindus the target of their wrath. His unforgettable words spoken in Urdu, which ring in my ears even today, were about Pakistan not having been created for the massacre of Hindus who had an equal right to live with Muslims and others in this “pak” (pure) land not to be made “napak” (impure) by killing them.

He desired the crowds to return and help in returning all the loot to their area police stations. He had sternly warned the masses that shoot-at-sight orders were being given to deal with offenders. And that did have a salutary effect as under the direct orders of the then military chief, the military did open fire a few times on the miscreants and riots came to a halt much to the relief of everyone including our family. It was a pleasant surprise to find the crowds returning the “loot” which piled up at Eidgah Maidan to form a mini hillock.

That was the only time I had seen and heard the creator of Pakistan. I owe my life to him and to my Muslim neighbours, the migrants from India.

HIRA GULRAJANI
Mumbai, India.


This is confirmed by reading Jinnah`s Speeches and statements from the same period and also his speeches and statements from Lahore. Jinnah actually was quite successful in bringing law and order on Pakistan side. If one reads the events of partition, one realises that most of those killed were killed in East Punjab under Nehru and Mountbatten`s watch.

taokanout#128: Jinnah may well have, as you say, sought troops to bring law and order on the Pakistan side in 1947, and thus prevent the horrors inflicted on the hindu and sikh residents of what is now Pakistan. Didnt happen though.

What I do know for sure is that not one Pakistani leader, Jinnah included, ever called for justice being served on the perpetrators. What I also know for sure is that there has never been any official apology to those people who were forced to leave their homes and property behind in Pakistan, those who were brutalized, and no official regrets about those who were killed. (The same of course is true for the Indian side, btw, but that is irrelevant to what we should be doing).

That is what I keep ranting about on chowk.

Manto is a one man army against the world

world: Who the heck is Jinnah? Never heard of that..is it like the Asian Bird Flu?
Manto: Jinnah was the greatest political figure the world has ever seen
World: if he was so great, how come we have never heard of him
Manto: You have not heard of myself either..but I am the greatest economist, historian, writer ever
World: pull this leg it plays Jingle bells.

world: Lets put a statue fo Gandhi in the park to consecrate the mahatma`s message of peace and non-violence
Manto: He was a racist,bigot, dirty, communal, sleeping with young chix naked fakir
world: Ok lets put up two statues of Gandhi
Manto: Jinnah, partition, Muslim league...ribbit..ribbit..Jinnah Saville row suits...ker-poof (Manto spontaneously combusts like the funeral pyre of Gandhi) Irony is a bitch!!!

#164

Yes, lapdog - the whole sentence came to me in one package!

And why stop at that one sentence - go analyze the whole story and keep looking for ``connections``. (Be careful, you may not like what you might run into!)

So what do you want to do about it?!!

Go screw yourself!

And the same holds for your ``owner``!

#161 by bjkumar

Hmm .. so `spring smiles` came to you, and `autumn leaves` came to you, and `dirt roads` came to you ... all in the same sentence ... and in the same sequence, and with the same meaning ...

Wow ... you must be one hell of a guy ...!

Abey Manto, let me put it in simple words.

Here is how the world sees things:

Gandhi = man of peace

Pakistan = land of terrorists

Jinnah = the man responsible for Pakistan

Since when have terrorists become great champions of democracy?! They will simply laugh at you.

Now if you guys were to accept your REAL heritage, and your REAL history, and your REAL geography, the FIRST thing you guys would start is calling yourselves by your RIGHT name!

West India you always were, West India you now are and West India you shall forever remain.

So squirm all you want but there is not a thing you can do about it. There is no physical way to transport your country to the land of the Mecca and Medina!

#160 by ramchandar

Ohh I see .. didn`t know that ... but since you say ...

But its kinda odd coming from someone who bathes in foecal infested waters to `purify` himself ...

#151 Zee

Listen you lapdog, I write what comes to me and there is not a thing that you or your owner can do about it - so squirm all you want, dear worm!

ref#152
[#141 by ramchandar

Muslim Jihad ( read sex + violence)

Jihad = sex+violence ???

Are you drunk again ... ?

(head scratching)]

Dear Zeemax

Jihad = Sex + Violence

Sex = 72 houris and some boys too if you entertain Nawaabi Shauk

Violence = Make unbeliever believe in Allah and Mohammad as his prophet.

(scraching middle of my suthan)

I find it very disheartening when people start differentiating democracy as western style and eastern style or islamic etc.

The fundemental point in democracy has not been identified by us orientals very well and this appears to be the flaw (atleast in my humble opinion). The key issue is that there can be differences of opinion and opinion has to be voiced. We cannot all be yes men. When my opinionn differs from yours, you either accept it or you do not. It is not a question of life and death and neither should it be. In the west this notion has been accepted and people are allowed to voice this and yet carry on living and make a decent life. Their families are not targetted etc etc etc.

Unfortunately this is not the case in the rest of the world - where clearing the stables is taken to an extreme - and a regime of yes sir yesir 3 bags full is the norm.

Anil, Dostmittar,

I strongly suggest both you gentlemen pick up Sajjad Zaheer`s ``League-Unionist Conflict`` and read it several times to understand what is being said.

Now Evan Jenkins has become the new Indian hero... but for god`s sake who said the British secret reports and claims were in anyway honest? Sadna`s selective meanderings notwithstanding, following go without saying:

1. The British and the Congress threw their entire might behind the unrepresentative and unpopular Unionist Party regime... I am just surprised that today, the old cronies of the British Empire... the jee huzooris who took their orders from Deputy Commissioners ... the likes of Sir Fazli Hussain, Sikandar Hayat and Khizer Hayat are being ``championed`` by the Indians... in exclusion the Muslim League, which was the only force in Punjab that was fighting the British bureaucracy and toadyism... while Congress- despite its tall claims and self righteousness of freedom struggle- was siding with the Unionists ....

2. The Muslim League did not favour partition of Punjab and Bengal but was completely against it...

[On May 17 Mahomed Ali Jinnah made this following appeal to reason – which Mountbatten and Nehru had none:

“The Muslim League cannot agree to the partition of Bengal and the Punjab… it cannot be justified historically, economically, geographically, politically or morally. These provinces have built up their respective lives for nearly a century… the principle underlying the demand for the establishment of Pakistan and Hindustan is totally different… In the name of justice and fairplay, do not submit to this clamour. For it will be sowing the seeds of future serious trouble and the results will be disastrous for the life of these two provinces.” (Jinnah’s letter to Mountbatten TOP X, p 852)

Sir Eric Meiville met with Jinnah on May 20th and reported the following to Mountbatten:

“At the end of our talk he (Jinnah) took my arm and said ‘I am not speaking as a partisan, but I beg to tell Lord Mountbatten once again that he will be making a grave mistake if he agrees to the partition of Punjab and Bengal.” (TOPP X 916)

What had Jinnah offered the Sikhs: Essentially a signed blank cheque… inter alia autonomy, defence ministry, permanent position as the Forces Chief…This is confirmed by Terrence Shone’s discussion with Jinnah . According to Terrence Shone, Jinnah said that he had offered 3.5 million Sikhs and Master Tara Singh everything he wanted, but “Sikhs in many ways admirable people lacked the leadership of the highest order”. (TOP Volume X P. 280) ]

The fact of the matter is that it was Master Tara Singh, who was egged on by Nehru and the lot who was responsible for the misery of the Sikhs... they would have gotten an autonomous Sikh state and would have been Pakistan`s strongest defence. Instead they chose Golden Temple massacre.


3. I am yet to see the smoking guns that you keep talking about. The smoking guns I see through the ``diligent research`` is that of British imperialist make in the hands of the Congress` funded murderers.