Last Gasp of the Imperial Misadventure

#97 by hamidm2

Hamidm, and I think it is about time you really started packing up ... as many others are ... to move to a safer place, which is back to Pakistan. Before Bush`s term is out (and it`s still a couple of years), he`s going to do what he has to do, and the Muslims will do what they have to do.

I gave you this advice before but you didn`t listen. Since then do you think things have gone better or worse? Then you thought the bunker busters are enough to do the job, and then a bit later you thought Israel will finish the job. But did it? Now it`s the shia/sunni thing as the Salvadore Option, but that won`t do it either. Nothing will.

So stop yapping and start packing.

Re: # 94

zeemax,

..... personally i think it is a stupid idea to pass any law that puts a limit on freedom of speech (as long as it does not incite violence against a group of people) ....... but even if such a law is passsed in the us it will only be used against the wild-eyed islamists and their suicidal followers - which is a good thing .......... in any case, how do you explain the shia-sunni carnage in the islamic world which has been going on long before the us appeared on the scene :

A bomb blast in Pakistan`s north-west city of Peshawar has killed at least 15 people - mostly policemen including two senior officers - officials say.
At least 30 others were injured by the explosion just as a Shia religious procession was about to start.

........ i think it is about time you did some introspection under your gariban instead of looking under the bed for imaginary foes ........ stop playing the victim - it is pathetic .......

zeemax:

I was born and lived in India for 12 years, lived in Pakistan for 13 years and have been visiting Pakistan now and then, lived in Nigeria for nearly 20 years and lived in England for more than two years. The world didn`t begin for me in the U.S. although it will most probably end here. I am trying to be quite objective in my outlook.

Read the title of this article (Last Gasp of Imperial Misadventure). I am not always supportive of the U.S. foreign policy.

I believe that the Muslim world can progress if it develops a constitutional system and adhere to it. If in Pakistan, the ruler has to be a military general, why can`t they agree on it and include it in the Constitution? They should develop a procedure to select such a head of state. I am sure you`ll not support it. Nor do I. Our problem is that we don`t have any system and don`t respect the rule of the law. To break the law and get away with it is a status of symbol in Pakistan.

Thanks for your patience,

Mohammad Gill

#91 by freethinker

Agreed.

However, USA`s system is one domestically, and quite another for the rest of the world. I think our perceptions diverge where since you reside in the US, the world begins and ends within the US, which is fine because USA is a self-contained world within itself. For the rest, USA is quite another story.

#92 by hamidm2

Hamidm, the holocaust denial law is not only in Europe but now being passed in USA too. How come you didn`t mention that?

As for beheadings and amputations and the rest, how many Muslim countries do that? KSA is not a good example because they`re kings. They can do whatever they want. I do not, repeat do not support harsh Sharia laws because I genuinely think these are outdated, and this is the area in which there must be Ijtihad. As an interactor said very validly on another board, that even Umar stopped amputations when the amputees were never able to rehabilitate and started lining up on Bait-ul-Maal. And to your knowledge, Hudood laws were only in force (other than KSA) in Pakistan introduced by your adopted country`s stooge Zia. One part of these has now been repealed, and others never carried out after Zia despite sentencings by the Sharia courts.

So do not kindly write off Islamists as some kind of barbarious ignoramuses.

Re: # 91

gill sahib,

.......... it is impossible to convince islamists that the reason they are miserable is because of fundamental flaws in their system of beliefs and values - it is much easier for them to blame the west ........... these people are like impotent men who beat their wives and kick their dogs instead of admitting their own inadequacies and seeking a cure ..........

Re: # 89

zeemax,

..... you are clutching at straws and you know it ........ there is a differnce between laws designed to protect innocent people from being slaughtered and those designed to protect the honor of an imaginary god and his long-dead prophet ....... in any case, even though i think the european laws against holocaust denial are silly, they cannot be compared to the barbaric hadood laws in islamic countries ........as far as i know, no one has been beheaded and stoned so far, and the one person who was jailed for it in austria was released after a few months ............ on the other hand, thousands of people are languishing in jails in pakistan for crimes against god and the imposter ........ and just yesterday saudi arabia threw 56 people in jail and deported many others .......... their crime ?..... they were ahmedis ........

......... so stop whining about the `injustice` in the west - it is downright silly !

zeemax: #89

Your point regarding holocaust is well taken. My point is that such exceptional things will occur from time to time and will be sorted out in due time according to the law.

There was a great deal of discussion recently in the news regarding the Black Muslim, Keith Ellison who was elected as a member of the Congress from Minnesota. The point of discussion was whether he should be allowed to take ceremonial oath on a copy of the Quran and not of the Bible. The debate was started by a neo-con. Eventually, Mr. Ellison took his oath on a copy of the Quran because it did not contravene the constitution, When I say that the western system is working, I mean, it is working on the whole.

I am glad you are following the discussion and raising some valid questions. I want to reiterate that I am not writing my posts to win points in any argument. I am hoping that my posts might open some closed minds which are allergic to the west.

All the valuable scientific knowledge resides in the west and that is the reason many of us come here to acquire it. I want to encourage my Muslim brothers to acquire this knowledge and improve it for our own benefit. This cannot be done by isolating ourselves from the west.

Mohammad Gill

#86 by ahmedmadani


Actually it`s no problem at all, as long as you can get a Mr. Durand to give the areas floating on oil to the people who love you the most ... :)

Gill saheb,

Excuse me for jumping in this fine debate. Your questions are valid and I expect Masadi Mian to answer these to your full satisfaction. However just one remark to keep things in perspective:

They (westerners) have abolished the blasphemy law.

.... and put in place laws which jail Holocaust Sceptics? Now in USA too? How do you justify that. I mean, it`s all about respecting or hurting the feelings of any particular community, isn`t it?

Continue please.

Rgds

masadi: #87

“Grapes are Sour”

You have again indulged in general accusations. You probably did not read when I wrote nothing is perfect in the world. Some power holders are corrupt but there exists a control system in a democratic system to bridle them.

I had asked you to inform the readers with which system you want to replace the western democracy if it is so bad. You evaded that question. Do you want to adopt a Pakistani, an Egyptian, a Syrian, an Iranian, a Saudi Arabian (so on and so forth) system, or what? You did not answer specifically but went on tangentially accusing the western system. This is what I had called “theories, ideology, and big mouths.”

The western system gradually progressed from its old, religion dominated, system and is still evolving. This is so because it is governed by man-made (and not Word of God) constitution which can be amended according to the changing conditions. This system evolved from the one which had silenced Galileo in the seventeenth century and had put him under house arrest. The evolved system now allows the development of sciences freely, allows people to think and express freely without any fear from the fundamentalist and retrogressive theologians. It encourages to open the minds and not to seal them, They (westerners) have abolished the blasphemy law.

This system allowed Darwin to publish his “Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection.” We are not even allowed to this day to publish any objective piece on theory of evolution in Pakistan (and in other Muslim countries) unless it condemns it and toes the line propagated by Harun Yahya. The western system has produced Galileo, Kepler, Newton, Clark Maxwell, Faraday, Einstein, and many other distinguished scientists. How come if this system is so bad, these geniuses were not only tolerated but greatly honored as well.

Mistakenly, you and others of your ilk, believe that I am against the Muslims (because I am a freethinker and criticize the decadent trends openly); I am indeed hoping and wishing the Muslim world comes out of its self-imposed darkness and progresses to become a notable entity in the world again.

I may be a “moron” as you called me but the Muslim world needs many more (many, many more) morons like me.

Be well,

Mohammad Gill

``Free``thinker writes <<< Mr. masadi, open your eyes and your mind. Maybe, you`ll learn a few good things from the west. >>>

What you describe as my ``blind hatred`` of the West is actually based on fact and is not ```hatred`` but rather concern for humanity, your worship of the Western elite, which you describe as the way of the West is based on widely generalized bs based on popular slogans of democracy and ``constitution``- which means nothing to this elite and hypocrisy of how this elite treats both its own and others. If you have become a cheerful moron due to the adaptation that this system forces on its inhabitants for implicit compliance, all I can do is feel sorry for you...

Re: # 85
What will be so bad if Iraq is made in three parts just india make in two parts. India there were two nations now here are three nations so its logical in long terms.

Is Iran next?

Farrukh Saleem
The US is signalling to Iran to stay out of America`s path in Iraq or face the terror of nuclear-powered supercarriers

US President George Bush’s ‘surge policy’ has been switched on. Here’s how it is further tilting the balance of terror in the Persian Gulf in America’s favour:

One, Army General John P Abizaid, Commander of the United States Central Command (CENTCOM), is commander no more. Admiral William J Fallon, one of the most hawkish of America’s military leaders, takes over as Commander CENTCOM.

Two, USS John C Stennis , a Nimitz-class nuclear-powered supercarrier, is on her way to the Gulf. Stennis has eight to nine squadrons of F/A-18 Hornet, EA-6B Prowler, S-3B Viking, E-2C Hawkeye and SH-60 Seahawk. Stennis can “destroy enemy aircraft, ships, submarines, and land targets or lay mines hundreds of miles from the ship”. Stennis can also “conduct strikes, support land battles, protect the Battle Group or other friendly shipping, and implement a sea or air blockade”.

Three, USS Ronald Reagan, another Nimitz-class supercarrier, is reportedly following USS John Stennis in the same direction (a supercarrier is a ship that belongs to the largest class of aircraft carrier with displacements greater than 75,000 tons). The Ronald Reagan Carrier Strike Group comprises USS Ronald Reagan , Destroyer Squadron (DESRON) 7 and Carrier Air Wing (CVW) 14.

Additionally, there’s USS Dwight Eisenhower (nicknamed: ‘Ike’), a Nimitz-class supercarrier, and USS Boxer a Wasp-class amphibious assault ship (Wasp-class vessels are “designed to land forces on hostile shores and are the largest vessels of this type in service anywhere in the world”). USS Dwight Eisenhower is accompanied by a guided missile cruiser USS Anzio, guided-missile destroyers Ramage and Mason and the fast-attack submarine Newport News (in another development, Ryan C Crocker the Persian-speaking current United States Ambassador to Pakistan will be the new United States Ambassador in Baghdad).

Is Iran next? Iraq is now turning out to be a contest between the US and Iran. The US wants to install a pro-US coalition government in Iraq while Iran considers a unified pro-US Iraq a direct threat to Iran and Iran’s influence in the region. Iran may actually prefer a partitioned Iraq with a pro-Iranian government lording over the oil-rich region of southern Iraq.

If Iran is next then Iran will be all about America’s naval and air power. Consider this: The United States Army’s active component has a total of 33 combat brigades. Of the 33, a total of 16 are deployed in Iraq, 2 in South Korea, 2 in Afghanistan and a combat brigade each in Kosovo and Bosnia. That makes it a total of 22 combat brigades that are already deployed. As combat brigades are deployed on rotation, the US Army will have little or no role in Iran. In effect, the US Army has no surplus while America has at her disposal plenty of surplus air as well as naval power. That also explains why Army General John P Abizaid is out and Admiral William J Fallon is in.

USS John C Stennis, USS Ronald Reagan and a new Commander of the United States Central Command are all signals to Iran to stay out of America’s path in Iraq or face the terror of nuclear-powered supercarriers. All this air, naval and marine power in the Indian Ocean-Persian Gulf region shall also serve as a strong reminder of American military might to all other countries in the vicinity of the theatre of war.

Re: # 83

But iran was persia, a cradle of civilization... how the heck did it got messed up with the bedouins?...

........... the us has nothing to do with the mess in iran ..... it all started when the prophet`s relatives and cronies started squabbling over who would succeed him as the caliph ......... if, instead of writing down the gibberish supposedly dictated by a demented winged creature in a cave, he had written a useful document like james madison and his cronies, we could have been spared all this bloodshed ........... abu bakr knew exactly what he was doing when he married off little aisha - little did he realize the bloody consequences that would follow for centuries ...................