This Really Gets My Goat

Re: # 87

Sadna:

````In fact, you are well aware that without the US, there was going to be no Jihad in Afghanistan. ``

On the contrary, Bhutto began sheltering mujahiddeen leaders and encouraging jihad uprisings in the mid 70s itself. ``

Mujahideens have been sheltered and given access to other parts, including Kashmir, since 1948.

Anil

Sadna has once again lit a fire under Islamabad Bob`s a$$... the guys is babbling uncontrollably... :)

#86
``James Woolsey was CIA chief. He now works for neocon groups…Is the CIA supporting neocons… Or Gill worked for Indian govt and now he writes anti-Pakistan articles…does he sill represent Govt of India? ``

Do you not see some difference between government complicity when a man writes articles and govt complicity when a man trains/indoctrinates suicide bombers?

``I asked you specific questions about your claims that the Army has jihadi agenda and you still have to reply to my questions…``

As I said, it will be of no use for me to reply to your ``questions``. You will simply make more dismissive statements like before without giving any basis for them, this is your style of ``debating`` which goes nowhere.

However since you will keep claiming your ``logic`` is unanswerable, I will reply.

`` Why do you think the Pak army would give up all that money and the US support for its control of Pakistan? ``

I presume you mean control of Afghanistan. Pak Army wants it all. It does not want to give up on all that money and US support and it does not want to give up control of Afghanistan. So it is supporting the Taliban and denying it is doing so. Doing this has worked for the last 2 odd years and by it Pak establishment hopes to create a ground situation in Afghanistan which will force NATO to compromise with Taliban and install a Taliban dominated govt in Kabul.

It is no surprise that the Pak Army is doing this, this is its longstanding policy of ``win-win`` war of thousand cuts which Pak Army waged in Afghanistan in the Soviet era and has been waging against India in J&K for years.

The US/NATO are responding by raising the cost to Pakistan of its denials.


``You also claim that the pak army and the religious parties do not expect US to remain in Afghanistan for long. Why would they have these expectations?``

I don`t ``claim``, this is a view expressed by many. The Soviets left, didn`t they? nazarhayatkhan on this very board said that the US/NATO can`t win in Afghanistan. If his view is shared by Pak Army brass, then they are already planning for what happens in Afghanistan after the US/NATO exit which they anticipate.

``Religious parties were never and they still are not part of the ruling class in Pakistan. To be a ruling class they need to show permanent interests in state’s resources. The religious parties have never shown that interests so they could only be an accomplice of the army they don’t become the ruling class by merely supporting the army. ``

This is a quibble over terminology. The religious parties have enormous leverage over Pakistani state`s Afghan policy and they are using their ideology and fighters which are still needed for the Afghan policy to make their domestic position stronger in a way other political parties cannot. They also currently hold the deciding vote for whether Musharraf gets another term or not.

``In fact, Indian presence in Afghanistan is used as a ruse by Pakistan.``

The whole argument for backing the most religious extremist mujahiddeen was that they would be anti-India and anti-Pashtunistan, so that Pakistan does not have to face enemies on both borders. Some people take these concerns to be reasonable, some others (like myself) think it is indeed a ruse by Pakistan, followed for 30 odd years since the Soviets left, to demand domination of its clients over the Kabul government as the price for peace there.

``As I asked earlier: do the religious groups in Pakistan form a permanent interest in the state resources? As long as they don’t, they pretty much have no control over the policy.``

As I said earlier, they are indispensible tools of state policy. They have the funding sources and contacts in Arab countries, they have the madrassas and mosques to preach, they have the cadres and the organisations. Pak Army can`t run a covert war policy with PPP or PML cadres, for that it needed/needs the JI and/or JUI.

``Again there is no history that suggests that the pak army is ideologically motivated.``

There is history to suggest that it is at a minimum ideologically motivated to consider Hindus the eternal existential enemy (and the Taliban in contrast existential allies); also to protect its interests versus Pakistani civilian institutions and to follow the orders of the Army Chief. It has also in the last 30 years been ideologically motivated to consider a non-puppet govt in Afghanistan as a existential threat to Pakistan.

``In fact, you are well aware that without the US, there was going to be no Jihad in Afghanistan. ``

On the contrary, Bhutto began sheltering mujahiddeen leaders and encouraging jihad uprisings in the mid 70s itself.


``It is a good booty on individual level and perhaps good enough to run the afghan government but maintaining the Pak army requires not only serious money but also ability to procure modern arms year in and year out, do you think the Pak army would not understand this simple arithmetic?

By supporting the Taliban, Pakistan becomes an enemy of the US and NATO so what would the Army gain by taking a risk that can possibly jeopardize all the goodies over $5 billion a year and military supplies which help the Pak army maintain its control over Pakistan.``


As I said earlier, the Pak Army wants it all, US support, arms and aid AND control over Afghanistan`s government. The route it sees to having it all is to help the Taliban make military gains in Afghanistan and to deny all such help, until a time when the US/NATO are forced to make a deal with the Taliban on Pakistan`s terms. It will not be the first time Pakistan follows such a policy in its neighbouring regions.

Just yesterday a retired ISI chief was suggest that NATO agree on a ceasefire so that the problem can be solved through negotiations between Afghanistan and Pakistan. The question arises that if Pakistan officialdom has nothing to do with Taliban military attacks, then what good would a NATO ceasefire do any Pak-Afghan talks, and why on earth should Afghan officialdom have to talk to Pakistan about powersharing in Afghanistan`s own government?

#85
About Hamid Gul...
James Woolsey was CIA chief. He now works for neocon groups…Is the CIA supporting neocons… Or Gill worked for Indian govt and now he writes anti-Pakistan articles…does he sill represent Govt of India?

#83
“Um, you are the one who essentially said in #59 that for the Pakistan Army to have a jihadi agenda today does not make any sense.”

I asked you specific questions about your claims that the Army has jihadi agenda and you still have to reply to my questions… The whole thing does not make sense to you because you cannot show me the Jihadi agenda…..

I am trying to figure out why you said and what you said about the Jihadi agenda...

#80
``And who cares about Hamid Gul types. He left services a long time ago. He is not a pak govt spokesperson. He holds no official position. He can say whatever he wants only immature and amateur would worry abt his stories. ``

Well, the Afghans say that he is training suicide bombers in Balochistan these days. I think he himself admits he visits the region to encourage people to join up for waging jihad in Afghanistan.

Again some more ridiculous posts.

Zia ulhaq’ grandson lives and works in Wash, DC metro area. He does not agree with his father and nor does he agree with his grandfather…

People decide for themselves eventually what they feel and think. People with western education just have more choices in making up their mind on issues….

HP#80
Um, you are the one who essentially said in #59 that for the Pakistan Army to have a jihadi agenda today does not make any sense. I was replying to that point in #72, that by the same measure Pak policy in the past also did not make any sense but the lack of sense didn`t prevent Pakistan from following it.

#78 by bongdongs

Many, infact all CIA operatives present themselves as state dept officers unless they have a private cover like Plame had....

#79
It also doesn`t matter which best Western-oriented school a general went to, because as long as he is in the Army either he implements orders/policies dictated by the Army chief or he resigns.

So at any given time it only matters which policy school the current Army chief and his advisors (including ISI/MI top brass who run the Afghan covert policy) adhere to.

#72

“usually waste my time digging up stuff to support my contentions and to challenge yours and then you simply brush them off”

Well I doubt that newspapers reports add any creditability to any discussion. Most of them are just reports. There are thousands of journalists writing many things and they change their opinions every day. I don’t know how a newspaper report can be cited unless it is about some specific event that is relevant to the discussion. The asiatimes report did not add any thing to the current discussion except for telling us there is a crazy mullah out there selling his CD at $4 a pop. So a mullah’s taunts in a small town of miranshah are enough for the Pak army to change its policies? How many times Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell have changed the US foreign policies?

“So yes, if Pak policy today makes no sense that shouldn`t be a surprise.”

To you, yes, it doesn’t make any sense because you don’t even understand the Pak army or the US policies nor do you understand what is happening in that area.
Your post is just a rant and there is nothing really to talk about except one thing that you finally admitted that the policy does not make sense to you…. Well if does not make sense to you then why do you even bother talking about the Jihadi agenda? All I asked: what is that Jihadi agenda and now the whole thing does not make sense to you….You can’t even justify something that you wrote in your earlier post.

“Inspite of the nuclear- related sanctions in 1989, the US kept up funding/arms to Pak for mujahiddeen until 1992 and the CIA did its very best to get Pak client Hekmatyar his military victory over other mujahiddeen and Najibullah till then. But in 1992 after a blink of an eye the US went from ally no. 1 and sucker no.1 to enemy no.1 for Pakistan. That makes no sense either.”

Again it makes no sense for you because you don’t understand it. It makes perfect sense to several others who develop US and Pakistani policies and analyze it with the right tools.

And who cares about Hamid Gul types. He left services a long time ago. He is not a pak govt spokesperson. He holds no official position. He can say whatever he wants only immature and amateur would worry abt his stories.

#75 by PewResearch

“you are eminently qualified”
sure! a hell lot more than you…If you agree with Sadna then try and respond to my posts now that Sadna has accepted that the whole thing does not make sense to her.

“Not sure why ‘Physical’ threat is relevant. A boundary dispute with Afghanistan exists.”

Physical is when China entered India to resolve a border dispute and physical is when China captured supposedly part of India and still owns it…..



#71 by harish_hyd
“cannot believe just two consulates at Herat and Kandahar were enough to trigger an uproar in Pakistan with every Paki (including the COAS of the Paki Army himself, Gen. Pervez Musharraf) and his mother-in-law accusing India of fomenting unrest in Baluchistan through these two consulates and now HP pops in and says they`re just not enough to cause any trouble to the Paki Army!”

Every thing has a propaganda value at a given time. Like Iraq had WMDs in a tractor trailer or the shadows of mushroom clouds if Sadam was not removed or the ISI behind peasants suicides in AP, India.

Re: # 75

Speaking of pakis at ‘the best Western-oriented schools` - Zeemax`s son is ivy-league[or so he claims] and yet he has a couple of dynamite belts stashed in... this is by his own admission... when you have koran stuffed up your a$$ from the day one - there isn`t much anybody can do about it... even Allah pUBH himself can`t save you...

best western schools actually make it worse, because it shows them how much of losers muslims are compared everybody else... and as typical of losers, instead of working to remove their own weaknesses and backwardness, they blame it on others: jews, neo-cons, hinuds, charlie, his aunt... and start making the dynamite belts... :)

#66

``How can I argue with Peter Tomsen who cannot respond to my arguments? Basically, Peter was CIA facilitator despite high sounding resume for couple of years.``

Peter Tomsen represented the state departments POV in Afghanistan which was dramatically different than that of the CIA. His long running fued with Milt Bearden (the then CIA station chief in Islamabad) is well documented.

Kulharee #74
The policy of deniability (of both Pakistan and the US) meant that most of these proxy war policies were out of ambit of public discussion or decisionmaking.

Masadi,

It appears that Sadna, Pew, HP etc are all ``DIMWITS``....

Re: HP #66
“Peter was CIA facilitator despite high sounding resume for couple of years. Does that qualify him to discuss issues”

Not at all! But without a similar ‘high sounding resume’, you are eminently qualified, Your Highness!

Also, one can go to ‘the best Western-oriented schools in Pakistan, and then they send them abroad’ and still pursue a jehadi agenda. Omar Sheikh (Daniel Pearl case) went to LSE. Mohd. Atta studied architecture in Berlin. So, going to ‘Western-oriented schools’ is insufficient. After all, the Pakistan Army official motto is jehad.. See my post #53

“Pakistan was never challenged by Afghanistan physically over the Durand line”.

You are being disingenuous here. Not sure why ‘Physical’ threat is relevant. A boundary dispute with Afghanistan exists. It is a well known that Afghanistan opposed Pakistan’s UN entry because they did not recognize the Durand line. Even the Taliban government did not recognize it. Karzai government does not recognize it either.

Re: # 73
Abu-Safwaan ..But the Army does not descend from the skies, it comes from within the country. Isn’t it? This Mohajir dude Mushy (and Zia before him) would stand no chance of raising to such high level in an atmosphere of vested interestism that you paint. It’s not only the Army, but the entire nation built on a foundation of rotten skunk my dear. Morons like Dr. Israr can blame everyone they like, but what exactly has he done for the country?