Muharram 10: ’Ashura: Commemorating Imam Hussain- The Prince of Martyrs

Re: # 101

Sattar Sahib, Asalama O Lakum. can you ask these bastions of civility and good manners and followers of the Sunnah and other stuff, how many Sunni mosques or Synagogues have been desecrated by Ahmadis, Kalmas painted over in Sunni mosques by Ahmadis, Copies of the Quran burnt by Ahmadis, and Sunnis killed in their temples while praying by Ahmadis. Perhaps they can also tell us what action they took to make sure that things like that don’t happen again. Actions other than teaching politeness of the prophet to others. I will be obliged.

Sincerely,

Kulharee

Sattar - I did read what you wrote. My question had a different perspective in mind. By writing it in black and white, I am in the process of getting further clarity. I am sorry but I cannot distract myself from jumping into your ongoing skirmishes. My apologies if you mistook my earlier post addressed to you. I sensed sarcasm there. I guess there was a reference to the context and perhaps I did not pay much attention to it. Let me carry on with my delusions. To each their own :)

Re #95 …

… What “chats” with people of other faiths are you talking about?

You started your discussion on Ahamdis by telling a perverted lie about Mirza Sahib (another board, another time). When asked for a reference, a source, you changed your story. Your story was looked into by Urstruly as well … who admitted to it being unsubstantiated.

But you did not have the decency to take back, or substantiate the filth you had written.

Tell us more about your “chats” … it may (or may not!) cure Zahra of her delusions …

Your ullema are hateful extremists without a conscience. No wonder the ummah is going to the dogs …

Re: # 94

Nasah - Thank you for a well thought out post. I intentionally kept the focus on paying respect, saying a prayer or curiosity. But there was much more to it. I 100% agree with you that the arhcitecture of many churches, cathedrals, and basilicas is immensely beautiful and the ambience is extremely peaceful. There is no concept of loud noise or people walking in and out considering that to be a playground. And I guess basilica is a church with magnificent architecture that has been out there for over a 100 years or so. Ironically, we were on a trip to Montreal together and she is a Canadian who probably has never ever explored that part of her own country. But I must say that is a personal prerogative. I was just curious to understand the concern or the fear a Muslim feels or thinks about on visiting a non-Muslim place of worship.

Re: # 93

Urstruly: You have been on Chowk for quite a while. In that long time, you have evolved in certain areas. I do not think you read my post in the right context. In any case, thank you for a perspective.

Re: # 95

Asif - I was curious to read your take since you happened to be on a certain journey and I thought you will entertain the ideas/places of worship of those who do not follow your faith. By the way, when I said prayer that did not imply our ``ritual`` with all its bells and whistles. It`s just a natural reaction when you visit or enter a calm and serene and holy place which carries an aura - all positive. For me, it`s not what the place of worship believes. It is the belief that the place of worship is also under the supereme being`s jurisdiction and has to be appreciated.

On a recent out of town trip, I came across a small shrine many times on and off the highway. After a week`s stay, as I was ready to head out to the airport, I again saw the same sign. I ended up visiting the shrine and it was a different layout, architecture and above all peaceful and very serene ambience inside and outside of the shrine. There were tourists taking pictures of still water and little creation of God jumping up and down on the banks of the still water. I must have spent 10-15 minutes inside and as I left it was just a relief that I at least paid my respects by respecting the existence of the shrine of a non-muslim.

Some observations about this Shia/Sunni clash happening all over the world.

Here is the truth:

Shias are really called Shiaan-e-Ali (Friends of Ali). Hazrat Imam Ali was the first cousin and son-in-law of The Holy Prophet (PBUH) and the husband of Hazrat Fatima, the daughter of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). Hazrat Ali was renowned for his courage, his strength, and his full devotion to The Holy Prophet (PBUH) and Islam. In fact, he risked his life by staying behind in Mecca in the Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) house to fool his enemies.

After the Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) death, while Imam Ali and the rest of the family were busy preparing the Prophet`s (PBUH) body for burial, the Quraish leaders (Abu Baker, Omar, Othman, and others) gathered to select one among them as the ``Successor`` or Khalifa (Caliph). It was not democratic, because only Quraish men of Mecca were considered for leadership. Imam Ali quietly accepted the decision and for the sake of Muslim unity continued to honor the Caliphs Abu Baker and Omar during their lifetimes. Finally, when Othman was made Caliph, Imam Ali and others noticed the corruption that was surrounding this man. Tribal relatives, mostly of the Ommayyad clan, were appointed to high offices throughout the land. The most notable was Muawiya, the son of Abu Sufyan, who was the sworn enemy of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). Needless to say, Othman was assassinated by mobs of Muslims who were fed up with his corrupt adminsitration. Muawiya, who was by now Governor of Syria in Damascus, blamed Hazrat Ali for the death of Othman. Hazrat Ali was proclaimed the 4th Caliph, but Muawiya started a civil war that he evenutally lost. Imam Ali was murdered by so-called Kharijites who were conspicuously unable to murder Muwayiha and Amr Bin Al Ass (the Governor of Egypt). Muwaiya just happened to be out sick that day. (T)

Following the martyrdom of Imam Ali, Muawiya took over the Caliphate after a brief rule by Imam Hassan, who was too weak to take on the Ummayads. Muwayiha restarted the wars of conquest by attacking Cyprus, buidling a navy, and sending the first expedition to conquer Constantinople. Unfortunately, during his last days, he started grooming his son, Yazid for succession (so much for the democracy touted by the Sunnis). Eventually, Imam Hussain, the second son of Imam Ali, refused to acknowledge Yazid as Caliph, and Hussain and all of his male relatives were slaughtered by Yazid`s army in Karbala on the banks of the Euphrates in Eye Rack.

The friends of Ali (Shian-e-Ali) supported Imam Hussain`s struggle against Yazid. The rest of the Muslims, those who were not Shias, later came to be called Sunnis (meaning following in the footsteps of the Prophet PBUH)).

To make a long story short, Shiaism spread to Iran, Iraq, India, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Azerbaijan, and as far as Tunisia and Sicily.

The Fatimids were Shias who later became the Agha Khanis.

In 1979, after the fall of the Shah and the Iranian Revolution, the US (under Soodi influence) determined that Sunnis were the good Muslim and Shias were the bad Muslims. This all changed when in 2001, on 9/11, AlKayda`s 19 Sunni Wahabbi fanatic terrorists committed mass murder and mayhem. Now Sunni fanatics are bad in Soodi Arabia and Eye Rack where the Shias are the good guys because they were the enemas of Sadman Houston, who was a Sunni. But in Eye Ran, where the government is Shia, the Shias are bad, even though those Shias of Eye Ran are on freindly terms with the Shias of Eye Rack. To make matters even simpler, the Kurds who are themselves die-hard Sunnis hate the Sunni Arabs and are in cahoots with the Shia Arabs who hate Sunnis. Turkey, which is almost all Sunni, is at odds with the Kurds who are Sunni. The mostly Sunni Punjoos killed the almost completely Sunni Bengalis in East Pakistan in 1971. In the Sudan and Somalia, both Sunni countries, there is civil war and genocide, with Sunnis killing Sunnis.

Bottom line is this. Sunnis love to kill. They prefer to kill Hindus and Sikhs. If they can`t find them, they try to kill Jews and Christians (whom they call Ahl-e-Kitab or People of the Book). If the Sunnis can`t find any Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, or Jews, then they pick on their own Ahmedis, whom they kicked out in 1974. Finally, if they can`t find any of them, they pick on the Shias, starting with the Smilyes first and then on the real Shias the Asna Ashuris. Finally, when there are no Hinus, Sikhs, Christians, Jews, Ahmedis, Shias, then they just start killing each other - witness Soodan, Somalia, Sumatra, Bengal, Turkey, Palestine, and many other places in Africa. :))

Open Letter to Mantolives:

Manto Payee, I am very disappointed in your lack of judgment

Manto Bhai,
I have always admired your sense of logic, your vision for Pakistan, and even your aspirations for high office. I have supported you against Injuns, against Moolas, and even against those who would deny you membership in Muslimhood.

While I have disagreed with your views concerning the misfortune that is called partition of 1947, I am even more disappointed by your hasty and illogical altercation with Ms. Nadia. I consider her bravery, courage, and determination to take on a whole gang of goons to be the model of Pakistani feminininininity. Moreover, being a Shia of the Asna Ashuri persuasion, she is twice the Shia that you are. This of course is due to your becoming a Smiley, who while Shias, only believe in half of the saintly leaders we call Eye Maams.

When your own community of Sunnis, or ``losers`` as coined by the rag what covereth and protecteth, ejected your esteemed father and persecuted you because of your former faith, it was the Shia Smileys who gave you a home.
What did you do in return?
You joined a gang of hooligans in picking on a single Pakistani Shia female as she struggled to ward off the evil witches who were ganging up and hurling all kinds of abuse and venom at her.
If I were in your place, I would have protected and defended the solitary victim - but then from the results of various threads, it is obvious that she whipped some ass and I am sorry to note that one of them was yours.

I hope that you apologize to Nadia for your faux pas.
Thanks,
Salim Chauhan


The latest threat to Islam - Islam Khatrey meN hay

While I am offended by the rag what covereth and protecteth in saying that ``shias stink,`` I can understand her feelings. After all, hanging around and spending too much time with the only flatulent Shia on Chowk, I can see why she thinks that all Shias stink. Also, referring to Sunnis as losers can also make sense, if her only contact with Sunnis is the gay Mullah Atif2 who takes pride in calling himself a loser.

Now on the matter of ``FLYING FUKK,`` it`s obvious that the heavy dose of sugar-coated, lard-laden, and fattening Lahori Dunkin Donuts was bound to take its toll. She is obviously hallucinating about airborne copulation.

As to her asspirations for mass murder of all shias and sunnis, this is further positive proof of the freedom enjoyed by Pakistan`s religious minorities. In free and democratic Pakistan, every religious community, including Christians, has the right to plan murder and mayhem against any other religious community, including the majority Sunnis.

As for her taking over Pakistan, once again she is displaying very common Paki behavior. Anyone can become President of Pakistan, simply by threatening violence and ``taking over Pakistan.``

Let`s congratulate our future First Christian President in declaring her exploratory intentions and wish her well in her endeavors to decrease Pakistan`s population, reduce terrorism by killing Muslims, and rescuing our dear country from Mushy.

Here is the full text of her speech declaring her candidacy for high office:

#57 by Sobia on February 1, 2007 4:21am PT
lol..i don`t give a FLYING FUKK about you sunnis and shias..if i had my way, i`d kill all of you and take over pakistan to be the first christian president..i think sunnis are losers and shias stink...

Hafiz Shirazi, another Sunni sufi saint (from Iran!) says about Imam e Hussain:

Namaz e zaahidan mihrab o minbar
namaz e ashiqan bar dar didam

**********************************

Ba jurm e ishq e tu-am mikushand o ghogha ast
Tu niz bar sar e bam aa keh khush-tamaasha ast!

Re: # 92

Zahra - No, you did not make yourself clear. It is nothing condescending about any prophet … I fully believe in Quran, teachings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), and other prophets mentioned in Quran. Rather, my faith in Islam would not be complete without acknowledging Ram, Krishna, Buddha, Zaratushtra and many more as prophets of Allah … just like Moses, Jesus, Abraham and others. Peace be upon them all.

The condescending part has to do with views held by ullema ... and not about proophets. I am quite alright with a person worshipping a monkey-god or a man or a cow, or believing in prophets that performed miracles ... as long as he practices his faith peacefully. What a person believes is his own business …

Problem lies with extremists using religion for oppression. Ullema and their followers are to be blamed for this mess. I cannot have a discussion without “devout Muslims” maligning Mirza Sahib, or accusing Ahmadis of being against Pakistan and Muslims. Furthermore, every time I have negated views of ullema based on Quran, ahadith, or reasoning, I am told that ullema cannot be wrong, so sattar must be wrong … and that Ahmadis are evil ... end of discussion.

These ullema also tell us that Moses parted ocean, Jesus raised the dead, etc. If one cannot make sense of any of this, then why listen to the same ullema who tell us to kill apostates and adulterers? … that Ahmadis should be imprisoned for practicing Islam … ? And don’t even get me started on what perverted lies are being told about Mirza Sahib. What’s wrong with criticizing fanatic ullema?? Rather, every person of conscience should be criticizing these ullema and what they preach.

Read posts from Urstruly, Naqshbandi, zeemax, and now abu_safwaan. They have gone out of their way to criticize Ahmadis and told blatantly hateful lies about them. And all along they have failed to criticize excerpt from writings of Maudoodi and what the ullema have been preaching in the name of Islam. Do you see this contradiction and hypocrisy ???

+++

Whan a person uses the name of Prophet of Allah (pbuh) to initiate, perpetuate, and validate oppression and violence, he himself insults the Prophet (pbuh) and what he stood for ... in the most ignominious manner. This is what is really condescending, disrespectful, shameful, blasphemous ...

No, you did not make yourself clear. You yourself have failed to see the point ... so cut it out ...

taqi usman is a nasibi wahabi and his fatwas have been shown, by for example, dr. gibril fouad haddad, a lebanese scholar of ahlus sunnah, to be full of holes and not verry learned.

his equally repugnant father signed his name to the book ``rashid ibn rashid`` in which yazid mal`oon was praised and called ```ameer al mumineen`` and imam e hussain alayhisalam was heavily criticised and abused with words such as khariji and baaghi. astaghfirullah.

so whatever taqwi baymaani says, i dont care. id rather follow the traditional muftis of ahlus sunnah like shah wali allah, ala hazrat, ibn abidin shaami, imam e azam and so on out of millions who ALL agree on calling on the prophet and saying ya muhammad. they never considered it shirk. only wahabis do that. we dont make it farz but when u deny its validity and attribute shirk to those who do it, it is no longer just a fiqh issue but becomes an aqeedah issue.

when it suits them even deobandits like ashraf ali thanawi say Ya Shaykh and Ya Muhammad!

Zahra,

I also visit the worship places of other religions out of interest and curiosity and respect and i seek out spiritual travellers of other faiths too just for a chat.

``Despite being a Muslim, I do stop by at a church or a mausoleum or a monastery or other religious places for a prayer or out of curiosity or simply out of respect. I remembered spending a few hours in a basilica in Montréal where my Canadian Muslim friend chose to sit outside. For her, it was as if someone will forcibly convert her into Christianity`` (Zahra J)

Zahra J -- this is one of the most decent questions that have been asked on this garbagized forum -- I am no Maulana but I will say this -- you did it and you do it because you are a well educated well read rational being -- with a broad perspective -- very secure in your beliefs -- very confident of your Muslimhood -- eager to know, study learn and admire others -- your friend is a supertititious insecure nervous nellie -- who wants to remain ignorant of others -- a calamitiy common to the our community -- that insists we remain a Muslim frog in our `beautiful` deep Muslim well.

Any Muslim who goes to Paris and does not visit the imposing Cathedral of Notredame is a deprived Muslim -- of course it is no Taj Mahal -- no seventh wonders of the world -- but it is the epic of Catholic architecture -- one of the most exquisitely carved monument of Christian gothic art -- and to sit on one of the benches and look at those colorful glass murals is one of the most peaceful feelings one gets in that city crammed with tourists.

ZahraJ

Sometimes ago I read a fatwa by a scholar on the issue. According to him, it is quite OK to visit a place of worship of another religion given the three conditions are met:

1. The visitor (Muslim) must be sound in his knowledge of faith and fiqah (religious law). It is not that every Tom, Dick, and Ghafoora can do that whenever they like.

2. The intent of the visit should be for non-religious reasons e.g. promoting inter-faith harmony. You cannot just go there and offer dou rakaat namaz nafil or take part in their religious rites.

3. It is stictly forbidden to be in a place where shirk or polytheism is being practiced. For eaxmple, Christians, excluding some orthodox ones, for all intent and purpose worship three gods. Allah has attributed shirk and polytheism as the highest sin that can never be forgiven. The punishment is eternal hellfire. In my personal opinion, I think Jews, Zorthostorians, and orthodox Christians, who still consider Jesus (pbuh) as the Prophet of God, no more no less, are ok to visit.

Re: # 91

Sattar - Please do NOT say anything condescending about any prophet. You don`t make any point. You end up stirring unnecessary emotional reaction from otherwise rational beings. That`s a little unwise approach. Do I make myself clear?

#85,

“Finality” is only a small portion of ummah’s comedy. We should start with “Issa in the sky” and work our way to more serious matters…

… look, there’s all this other stuff like, I don’t know, Jesus reviving the dead, Solomon talking to animals, Moses parting the ocean, and the Prophet flying to heavens at night to meet god. Lumping it all into aqeedah is one way to validate it … I agree … labaik …

re zahra … go away woman … men are discussing serious matters here …

… and besides, what do you mean appreciate non-Muslims … ? They are kaffirs going to hell … what respect?? Not only that, but we must also blow up their woman and children … serves them bastards right …

Asif and Zeemax -

Thank you.

Since all the ulemae` karaa`m of Chowk are present on this board, I would like to present a question.

As a child (I am a grown-up now), I have always read about Muslim sufis and sages being well respected by even some non-Muslims. I have made similar observations as an adult. But when it comes to (some) Muslim believers, I am not sure if they extend the same sentiment towards the non-Muslim sages and monks and other good people. Why is that? Do we consider that a shirk? Or it`s not ok to show appreciation towards a non-Muslim?

Despite being a Muslim, I do stop by at a church or a mausoleum or a monastery or other religious places for a prayer or out of curiosity or simply out of respect. I remembered spending a few hours in a basilica in Montréal where my Canadian Muslim friend chose to sit outside. For her, it was as if someone will forcibly convert her into Christianity. Later down the road, she has become more accepting but there is a reticence. This is just one example.

I am curious to get the male ulemas take on it. I apologize for diverting the subject but I guess an innocent query that stimulates the brain and soul is much better than the constant tinctures male ulema are bestowing upon each other (~_~)

I will appreciate candid views.

Thanks.

Naqsh,

Don’t give up … these badmamah wahabis are ganging up on you. I have always doubted their taqwaa. How dare they denounce centuries of tradition and what countless divine sufis have died teaching us in order to purify our souls ... ??? Wah bhai, wah.

… start by reminding us of what you think of Maudoodi. Look, abu_safwaan has already denounced his teachings … and should easily convert to sufi tarriqah. Urstruly on the other hand is a hopeless case … he does not even believe in Issa in the sky … can you believe this …???

Ya Ali, Ya Hussain
Save the ummah, O’ fathers of faith
You have all the power …