Muharram 10: ’Ashura: Commemorating Imam Hussain- The Prince of Martyrs

Re: # 92

Zahra - No, you did not make yourself clear. It is nothing condescending about any prophet … I fully believe in Quran, teachings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), and other prophets mentioned in Quran. Rather, my faith in Islam would not be complete without acknowledging Ram, Krishna, Buddha, Zaratushtra and many more as prophets of Allah … just like Moses, Jesus, Abraham and others. Peace be upon them all.

The condescending part has to do with views held by ullema ... and not about proophets. I am quite alright with a person worshipping a monkey-god or a man or a cow, or believing in prophets that performed miracles ... as long as he practices his faith peacefully. What a person believes is his own business …

Problem lies with extremists using religion for oppression. Ullema and their followers are to be blamed for this mess. I cannot have a discussion without “devout Muslims” maligning Mirza Sahib, or accusing Ahmadis of being against Pakistan and Muslims. Furthermore, every time I have negated views of ullema based on Quran, ahadith, or reasoning, I am told that ullema cannot be wrong, so sattar must be wrong … and that Ahmadis are evil ... end of discussion.

These ullema also tell us that Moses parted ocean, Jesus raised the dead, etc. If one cannot make sense of any of this, then why listen to the same ullema who tell us to kill apostates and adulterers? … that Ahmadis should be imprisoned for practicing Islam … ? And don’t even get me started on what perverted lies are being told about Mirza Sahib. What’s wrong with criticizing fanatic ullema?? Rather, every person of conscience should be criticizing these ullema and what they preach.

Read posts from Urstruly, Naqshbandi, zeemax, and now abu_safwaan. They have gone out of their way to criticize Ahmadis and told blatantly hateful lies about them. And all along they have failed to criticize excerpt from writings of Maudoodi and what the ullema have been preaching in the name of Islam. Do you see this contradiction and hypocrisy ???

+++

Whan a person uses the name of Prophet of Allah (pbuh) to initiate, perpetuate, and validate oppression and violence, he himself insults the Prophet (pbuh) and what he stood for ... in the most ignominious manner. This is what is really condescending, disrespectful, shameful, blasphemous ...

No, you did not make yourself clear. You yourself have failed to see the point ... so cut it out ...

Hafiz Shirazi, another Sunni sufi saint (from Iran!) says about Imam e Hussain:

Namaz e zaahidan mihrab o minbar
namaz e ashiqan bar dar didam

**********************************

Ba jurm e ishq e tu-am mikushand o ghogha ast
Tu niz bar sar e bam aa keh khush-tamaasha ast!

Some observations about this Shia/Sunni clash happening all over the world.

Here is the truth:

Shias are really called Shiaan-e-Ali (Friends of Ali). Hazrat Imam Ali was the first cousin and son-in-law of The Holy Prophet (PBUH) and the husband of Hazrat Fatima, the daughter of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). Hazrat Ali was renowned for his courage, his strength, and his full devotion to The Holy Prophet (PBUH) and Islam. In fact, he risked his life by staying behind in Mecca in the Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) house to fool his enemies.

After the Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) death, while Imam Ali and the rest of the family were busy preparing the Prophet`s (PBUH) body for burial, the Quraish leaders (Abu Baker, Omar, Othman, and others) gathered to select one among them as the ``Successor`` or Khalifa (Caliph). It was not democratic, because only Quraish men of Mecca were considered for leadership. Imam Ali quietly accepted the decision and for the sake of Muslim unity continued to honor the Caliphs Abu Baker and Omar during their lifetimes. Finally, when Othman was made Caliph, Imam Ali and others noticed the corruption that was surrounding this man. Tribal relatives, mostly of the Ommayyad clan, were appointed to high offices throughout the land. The most notable was Muawiya, the son of Abu Sufyan, who was the sworn enemy of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). Needless to say, Othman was assassinated by mobs of Muslims who were fed up with his corrupt adminsitration. Muawiya, who was by now Governor of Syria in Damascus, blamed Hazrat Ali for the death of Othman. Hazrat Ali was proclaimed the 4th Caliph, but Muawiya started a civil war that he evenutally lost. Imam Ali was murdered by so-called Kharijites who were conspicuously unable to murder Muwayiha and Amr Bin Al Ass (the Governor of Egypt). Muwaiya just happened to be out sick that day. (T)

Following the martyrdom of Imam Ali, Muawiya took over the Caliphate after a brief rule by Imam Hassan, who was too weak to take on the Ummayads. Muwayiha restarted the wars of conquest by attacking Cyprus, buidling a navy, and sending the first expedition to conquer Constantinople. Unfortunately, during his last days, he started grooming his son, Yazid for succession (so much for the democracy touted by the Sunnis). Eventually, Imam Hussain, the second son of Imam Ali, refused to acknowledge Yazid as Caliph, and Hussain and all of his male relatives were slaughtered by Yazid`s army in Karbala on the banks of the Euphrates in Eye Rack.

The friends of Ali (Shian-e-Ali) supported Imam Hussain`s struggle against Yazid. The rest of the Muslims, those who were not Shias, later came to be called Sunnis (meaning following in the footsteps of the Prophet PBUH)).

To make a long story short, Shiaism spread to Iran, Iraq, India, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Azerbaijan, and as far as Tunisia and Sicily.

The Fatimids were Shias who later became the Agha Khanis.

In 1979, after the fall of the Shah and the Iranian Revolution, the US (under Soodi influence) determined that Sunnis were the good Muslim and Shias were the bad Muslims. This all changed when in 2001, on 9/11, AlKayda`s 19 Sunni Wahabbi fanatic terrorists committed mass murder and mayhem. Now Sunni fanatics are bad in Soodi Arabia and Eye Rack where the Shias are the good guys because they were the enemas of Sadman Houston, who was a Sunni. But in Eye Ran, where the government is Shia, the Shias are bad, even though those Shias of Eye Ran are on freindly terms with the Shias of Eye Rack. To make matters even simpler, the Kurds who are themselves die-hard Sunnis hate the Sunni Arabs and are in cahoots with the Shia Arabs who hate Sunnis. Turkey, which is almost all Sunni, is at odds with the Kurds who are Sunni. The mostly Sunni Punjoos killed the almost completely Sunni Bengalis in East Pakistan in 1971. In the Sudan and Somalia, both Sunni countries, there is civil war and genocide, with Sunnis killing Sunnis.

Bottom line is this. Sunnis love to kill. They prefer to kill Hindus and Sikhs. If they can`t find them, they try to kill Jews and Christians (whom they call Ahl-e-Kitab or People of the Book). If the Sunnis can`t find any Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, or Jews, then they pick on their own Ahmedis, whom they kicked out in 1974. Finally, if they can`t find any of them, they pick on the Shias, starting with the Smilyes first and then on the real Shias the Asna Ashuris. Finally, when there are no Hinus, Sikhs, Christians, Jews, Ahmedis, Shias, then they just start killing each other - witness Soodan, Somalia, Sumatra, Bengal, Turkey, Palestine, and many other places in Africa. :))

Open Letter to Mantolives:

Manto Payee, I am very disappointed in your lack of judgment

Manto Bhai,
I have always admired your sense of logic, your vision for Pakistan, and even your aspirations for high office. I have supported you against Injuns, against Moolas, and even against those who would deny you membership in Muslimhood.

While I have disagreed with your views concerning the misfortune that is called partition of 1947, I am even more disappointed by your hasty and illogical altercation with Ms. Nadia. I consider her bravery, courage, and determination to take on a whole gang of goons to be the model of Pakistani feminininininity. Moreover, being a Shia of the Asna Ashuri persuasion, she is twice the Shia that you are. This of course is due to your becoming a Smiley, who while Shias, only believe in half of the saintly leaders we call Eye Maams.

When your own community of Sunnis, or ``losers`` as coined by the rag what covereth and protecteth, ejected your esteemed father and persecuted you because of your former faith, it was the Shia Smileys who gave you a home.
What did you do in return?
You joined a gang of hooligans in picking on a single Pakistani Shia female as she struggled to ward off the evil witches who were ganging up and hurling all kinds of abuse and venom at her.
If I were in your place, I would have protected and defended the solitary victim - but then from the results of various threads, it is obvious that she whipped some ass and I am sorry to note that one of them was yours.

I hope that you apologize to Nadia for your faux pas.
Thanks,
Salim Chauhan


The latest threat to Islam - Islam Khatrey meN hay

While I am offended by the rag what covereth and protecteth in saying that ``shias stink,`` I can understand her feelings. After all, hanging around and spending too much time with the only flatulent Shia on Chowk, I can see why she thinks that all Shias stink. Also, referring to Sunnis as losers can also make sense, if her only contact with Sunnis is the gay Mullah Atif2 who takes pride in calling himself a loser.

Now on the matter of ``FLYING FUKK,`` it`s obvious that the heavy dose of sugar-coated, lard-laden, and fattening Lahori Dunkin Donuts was bound to take its toll. She is obviously hallucinating about airborne copulation.

As to her asspirations for mass murder of all shias and sunnis, this is further positive proof of the freedom enjoyed by Pakistan`s religious minorities. In free and democratic Pakistan, every religious community, including Christians, has the right to plan murder and mayhem against any other religious community, including the majority Sunnis.

As for her taking over Pakistan, once again she is displaying very common Paki behavior. Anyone can become President of Pakistan, simply by threatening violence and ``taking over Pakistan.``

Let`s congratulate our future First Christian President in declaring her exploratory intentions and wish her well in her endeavors to decrease Pakistan`s population, reduce terrorism by killing Muslims, and rescuing our dear country from Mushy.

Here is the full text of her speech declaring her candidacy for high office:

#57 by Sobia on February 1, 2007 4:21am PT
lol..i don`t give a FLYING FUKK about you sunnis and shias..if i had my way, i`d kill all of you and take over pakistan to be the first christian president..i think sunnis are losers and shias stink...

Re: # 94

Nasah - Thank you for a well thought out post. I intentionally kept the focus on paying respect, saying a prayer or curiosity. But there was much more to it. I 100% agree with you that the arhcitecture of many churches, cathedrals, and basilicas is immensely beautiful and the ambience is extremely peaceful. There is no concept of loud noise or people walking in and out considering that to be a playground. And I guess basilica is a church with magnificent architecture that has been out there for over a 100 years or so. Ironically, we were on a trip to Montreal together and she is a Canadian who probably has never ever explored that part of her own country. But I must say that is a personal prerogative. I was just curious to understand the concern or the fear a Muslim feels or thinks about on visiting a non-Muslim place of worship.

Re: # 93

Urstruly: You have been on Chowk for quite a while. In that long time, you have evolved in certain areas. I do not think you read my post in the right context. In any case, thank you for a perspective.

Re: # 95

Asif - I was curious to read your take since you happened to be on a certain journey and I thought you will entertain the ideas/places of worship of those who do not follow your faith. By the way, when I said prayer that did not imply our ``ritual`` with all its bells and whistles. It`s just a natural reaction when you visit or enter a calm and serene and holy place which carries an aura - all positive. For me, it`s not what the place of worship believes. It is the belief that the place of worship is also under the supereme being`s jurisdiction and has to be appreciated.

On a recent out of town trip, I came across a small shrine many times on and off the highway. After a week`s stay, as I was ready to head out to the airport, I again saw the same sign. I ended up visiting the shrine and it was a different layout, architecture and above all peaceful and very serene ambience inside and outside of the shrine. There were tourists taking pictures of still water and little creation of God jumping up and down on the banks of the still water. I must have spent 10-15 minutes inside and as I left it was just a relief that I at least paid my respects by respecting the existence of the shrine of a non-muslim.

Re #95 …

… What “chats” with people of other faiths are you talking about?

You started your discussion on Ahamdis by telling a perverted lie about Mirza Sahib (another board, another time). When asked for a reference, a source, you changed your story. Your story was looked into by Urstruly as well … who admitted to it being unsubstantiated.

But you did not have the decency to take back, or substantiate the filth you had written.

Tell us more about your “chats” … it may (or may not!) cure Zahra of her delusions …

Your ullema are hateful extremists without a conscience. No wonder the ummah is going to the dogs …

Sattar - I did read what you wrote. My question had a different perspective in mind. By writing it in black and white, I am in the process of getting further clarity. I am sorry but I cannot distract myself from jumping into your ongoing skirmishes. My apologies if you mistook my earlier post addressed to you. I sensed sarcasm there. I guess there was a reference to the context and perhaps I did not pay much attention to it. Let me carry on with my delusions. To each their own :)

Re: # 101

Sattar Sahib, Asalama O Lakum. can you ask these bastions of civility and good manners and followers of the Sunnah and other stuff, how many Sunni mosques or Synagogues have been desecrated by Ahmadis, Kalmas painted over in Sunni mosques by Ahmadis, Copies of the Quran burnt by Ahmadis, and Sunnis killed in their temples while praying by Ahmadis. Perhaps they can also tell us what action they took to make sure that things like that don’t happen again. Actions other than teaching politeness of the prophet to others. I will be obliged.

Sincerely,

Kulharee

Zahra,

I have failed to follow your perspective … and no one asked you to jump in these skirmishes anyway. You warned me against condescending prophets. I have explained that prophets of all faiths are extremely respectable for me and I cannot imagine maligning them or their followers in any way. However, I have maintained, if you look closely, it is the “ullema” who have maligned and abused Mirza Sahib and Ahmadis … and violently persecuted the Ahmadi-Muslim community.

I poke fun at views of ullema only when their verdicts are used to validate persecution of Ahamdis and hatred and violence against others. Hateful propaganda has consequences. Read #103 from Kulharee. Every now and then I hear about Ahmadis being martyred in mosques, homes, shops and streets. I can cite numerous accounts of mobs attacking mosques and houses of Ahmadis in towns and villages in Pakistan. None of this gets reported due to fear of repercussions from mullah. Many more Muslims (from other sects) are killed and hurt owing to general sectarian violence stemming from ullema’s fanatic teachings. It’s not just Ahmadis, but everyone suffers.

Problem lies not with what I wrote, but somewhere else. And if you still want to pursue who is maligning who … and who is hurting who … start with Naqsh … the very author of this article …. who does not tire of talking about taqwaa and ways to achieve nearness to the divine. Refer to #101 for some details. Also question Urstruly and zeemax on their views that Ahmadis are engaged in anti-Pakistan and anti-Islam activities. What is the basis of such claims? … I remain curious. Also ask abu_safwaan about his hatred for Ahmadis … there seems to be no rhyme or reason for what he feels. Why does law of Pakistan make it illegal for an Ahmadi to practice Islam?

Is this what Islam teaches us? Are these the examples set by the dear Prophet of Islam (pbuh). These are the questions you should be asking. And your questions should be directed towards the ummah and custodian of its faith, and not me. And if you still don’t get it, I have little idea of what you were trying to achieve …

ZahraJ,

If you believe in Tauheed ... i.e. God is one and nothing seperates any animate or inanimate object from God, and that includes yourself, then you can go to anyone`s place of worship and pay your respects.

Rgds.

``God is one and nothing seperates any animate or inanimate object from God, and that includes yourself.``

Zee, vow, is that the concept of God as presented in the Quran? I ask because it sounds too Eastern, and is quite different from the way people of semitic traditions practically appraoch the subject of God. Also, do you think it reflects an average Muslim`s understanding of God?

#106 by kaalchakra

Yaar Kaalchakra ... you pose very profound questions.

It was just an advice to ZahraJ who really wanted to know if it was OK to visit Temples and Churches. I just told her it was fine as long as she believed in `Tauheed`. I have paid respects to inanimate Moortis in my Hindu friends` homes while staying with them just as their own family several times. I`ve also prayed in Churches as well as sat with Budhist monks in Thailand. My best and dearest friends are Jews.

Tauheed means `Oneness with God`, or in other words ``A Single Unified Reality of Everything``. As you may see on my Interactor Profile page here, Einstein agreed.

Islam in its deepest understanding is nothing but `Tauheed`. That is the core and the sole belief (Allah) for those who can discover that reality through arduous experience and it isn`t easy. That`s the stuff of people like Dr. Muhammad Iqbal, and there`s nothing mightier than that. People who get there easily, perform miracles.

For those who cannot get there because of limitations of intellectual capacity, next level is the prescribed code of conduct which is less arduous, but leads in the same direction.

And for those who can do neither of the above, they can just follow rituals, say La Ilaha Illalah, pray five times a day, fast in Ramzaan, go for Hajj, and that`s ok too as long as they do it with sincerity and not to deceive themselves or anyone else.

Your next question, yes, this is the concept of God presented in the Quran.

And thirdly no, it does not reflect the average Muslim`s understanding of God. But you see, it doesn`t have to, in order to have committed followers. There`s blind Faith in Quran as well.

It is rather difficult to explain, but my best attempt would be that it says if you really want to know, you can. But if you can`t, there`s someone up there who`s telling you what it is all about and you don`t have to lose any sleep over it. Just do it and you`ll be OK. That is Blind Faith. And it works upon hundreds and hundreds of millions quite effortlessly.

I`ve written before on how immensely powerful just the intonation of the Quran is, let alone the meaning. Quran inspires just by recitation without even needing to tell what it means to non-Arabic speakers. This is the power of the Quran. It is a living miracle to this day.

Hope I succeeded in addressing your questions. I`ll be very glad if I did.

Cheers.

(P.S. To answer in advance your follow-up question as to in which of the three categories do I fall? It is the second. Conduct and Conduct alone. Can`t aspire for the first.)

Afterthought to elaborate on the postscript to #107 ...

....Conduct and Conduct alone....

..... that prescribed conduct is not all goody goody Reader`s Digest conduct of rescuing stray dogs from oncoming trains. It includes pretty nasty stuff.

Cheers.

Zeemax,

Masha Allah bro, I have to admit that alhough our understanding of Islam differs at times, I found your post 105 very succint and beautiful.

Kaalchakra,

Yes, the concept of Allah which Zeemax describes is definitely in the Koran (and the hadith too). Verses such as, ``Wherever you turn, there is the Face of God`` and, ``God is closer to the believers than their jugular vein`` are proof-texts for the foundations of the spiritual aspects of Islam aka tassawuf in Arabic and Sufism in English.

There is also the famous Hadith of the Prophet which is known as the hadith of Gabriel. It is very long but basically the Prophet described to Gabriel 3 layers of Islam: Islam, Iman and Ihsan with the last corresponding to the highest states of the Sufi saints and which the Prophet said was, `to worship God as if you SEE him and if you do not see him to know that He sees you`. i.e. it is a very immanent idea of God whereas the first stage, for the common Muslim, is ritualistic and God is very transcendent.

Similarities between the spiritual dimensions of Islam and aspects of Eastern religions have been studied by academics. The best book on the topic is probably Sachiko Muratas`, The Tao of Islam.

or the books of or beloved Shaykh Abu Bakr Siraj akl Din aka Dr. Martin Lings.

I meant Zeemax` posts 105 and 107.

Linking that back to this article topic about Imam Hussain (upon him be peace), his noble father, the fourth caliph and first Imam, Sayyidina Ali ibn Abi Talib, the Saint of God, is reported to have said, ``I do not worship I God I cannot see`` and the ulama/sufis believe this to mean that Mawla Ali saw God --with the eyes of his heart not with the eyes of his head (that is impossible except for the Messenger sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam on the night of Miraj)--each time he did sajdah (prostrated in ritual prayer).

Allahu Akbar! It is also possible for saints to have spiritual visions of Allah and indeed the books of the saints [awliya] are full of such descriptions using figuratie language. Allah`s Habib sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam said, ``I saw my Lord in the most beautiful form`` and there are other hadith too. Imam Abu Hanifa--whose school of jurisprudence the majority of Muslims follow--is said to have seen Allah in his dream 100 times!

That is why Imam Ghazali described the sufi path as the only path of certainty.

Naqshbandi,

I haven`t read any books. I just wrote what I`ve experienced and have come to believe as the truth.

Rgds.

Thanks, Naqshbandi!

Naqsh and Zee

Fascinating stuff!

Does Islam/Quran also teach the concept ``Allah is the only true God/god?`` If so, what is this concept called?