Muharram 10: ’Ashura: Commemorating Imam Hussain- The Prince of Martyrs
Asif Naqshbandi January 29, 2007
#1 Posted by philosopher on January 29, 2007 3:51:30 pm
Great piece; thanx naqsh
Imama-i-aaleey maqaam is the conscience of humanity.
``insaan ko baidaar tu ho lainey do
har qaum pukaarey gi hamaairay hain Hussain``.
Imama-i-aaleey maqaam is the conscience of humanity.
``insaan ko baidaar tu ho lainey do
har qaum pukaarey gi hamaairay hain Hussain``.
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#2 Posted by zeemax on January 29, 2007 10:46:15 pm
How much of this is fact, and how much fiction? Intriguing nevertheless.
Hindu Followers of a Muslim Imam
One of the most important events in early Muslim history was the battle of Karbala fought in 680 CE in which Imam Hussain, grandson of the Prophet through his daughter Fatima and her husband Imam Ali, was slaughtered along with a small band of disciples in a bloody battle against Yazid, a tyrant who had usurped the Muslim caliphate. The slaughter of Ali is one of the pivotal events that led to a divide between the `mainstream` Sunni and Shi`a communities, with the latter ascribing special importance to the family of Ali. This event occurred in the Islamic month of Muharram, and it is for this reason that this month is observed with great solemnity in many parts of the Muslim world.
What is particularly striking about the observances of the month of Muharram in India is the prominent participation of Hindus in the rituals. This has been a feature of popular religion for centuries in large parts of India, and continues even today, albeit on a smaller scale. In towns and villages all over the country, Hindus join Muslims in lamenting the death of Hussain, by sponsoring or taking part in lamentation rituals and tazia processions.
In Lucknow, seat of the Shia Nawabs of Awadh, prominent Hindu noblemen like Raja Tikait Rai and Raja Bilas Rai built Imambaras to house alams, standards representing the Karbala event. The non-Muslim tribal Lambadi community in Andhra Pradesh have their own genre of Muharram lamentation songs in Telugu. Among certain Hindu castes in Rajasthan, the Karbala battle is recounted by staging plays in which the death of Imam Hussain is enacted, after which the women of the village come out in a procession, crying and cursing Yazid for his cruelty. This custom is known as pitna dalna. In large parts of north India, Hindus believe that if barren women slip under an alam moving in a procession they will be blessed with a child.
Perhaps the most intriguing case of Hindu veneration of Imam Hussain is to be found among the small Hussaini Brahmin sect, located mostly in Punjab, also known as Dutts or Mohiyals. Unlike other Brahmin clans, the Hussaini Brahmins have had a long martial tradition, which they trace back to the event of Karbala. They believe that an ancestor named Rahab traveled all the way from Punjab to Arabia and there developed close relations with Imam Hussain. In the battle of Karbala, Rahab fought in the army of the Imam against Yazid. His sons, too, joined him, and most of them were killed. The Imam, seeing Rahab`s love for him, bestowed upon him the title of Sultan or king, and told him to go back to India. It is because of this close bond between their ancestor Rahab and Imam Hussain that the Hussaini Brahmins got their name.
After Rahab and those of his sons who survived the battle of Karbala reached India, they settled down in the western Punjab and gradually a community grew around them. This sect, the Hussaini Brahmins, practised an intriguing blend of Islamic and Hindu practices, because of which they were commonly known as `half Hindu, half Muslim`. A popular saying about the Hussainis has it thus:
Wah Dutt Sultan,
Hindu ka dharm
Musalman ka iman,
Adha Hindu adha Musalman
(Oh! Dutt the king-With the religion of the Hindu
And the faith of the Muslim
Half Hindu, half Muslim)
But there is also another version of how the Dutts of Punjab came to be known as Hussaini Brahmins. One of the wives of Imam Hussain, the Persian princess Shahr Banu, was the sister of Chandra Lekha or Mehr Banu, the wife of an Indian king called Chandragupta. When it became clear that Yazid was adamant on wiping out the Imam, the Imam`s son `Ali ibn Hussain rushed off a letter to Chandragupta asking him for help against Yazid. When Chandragupta received the letter, he dispatched a large army to Iraq to assist the Imam. By the time they arrived, however, the Imam had been slain. In the town of Kufa, in present-day Iraq, they met with one Mukhtar Saqaffi, a disciple of the Imam, who arranged for them to stay in a special part of the town, which even today is known by the name of Dair-i-Hindiya or `the Indian quarter`.
Some Dutt Brahmins, under the leadership of one Bhurya Dutt, got together with Mukhtar Saqaffi to avenge the death of the Imam. They stayed behind in Kufa, while the rest returned to India. Here they built up a community of their own, calling themselves Hussaini Brahmins, and although they did not convert to Islam they kept alive the memory of their links with Imam Hussain.
The Hussaini Brahmins believe that Krishna had foretold the event of the Imam`s death at Karbala in the Gita. According to them, the Kalanki Purana, the last of eighteen Puranas, as well as the Atharva Veda, the fourth Veda, refer to Imam Hussain as the divine incarnation or avatar of the Kali Yug, the present age. They hold Imam Ali, Imam Hussain`s father, and son-in-law and cousin of the Prophet Muhammad, in particular reverence, referring to him with the honorific title of Om Murti.
The Hussaini Brahmins, along with other Hindu devotees of the Muslim Imam, are today a rapidly vanishing community. The younger generation abandoning their ancestral heritage, often now seen as embarrassingly deviant. No longer, it seems, can a comfortable liminality be sustained, and ambiguous identities seem crushed under the relentless pressure to conform to the logic of neatly demarcated `Hindu` and `Muslim` communities. And so, these and scores of other religious communities that once straddled the frontier between Hinduism and Islam seem destined for perdition, or else to folkloric curiosities that tell of a bygone age, when it was truly possible to be a bit of both `Hindu` as well as `Muslim` at the same time.
Hindu Followers of a Muslim Imam
One of the most important events in early Muslim history was the battle of Karbala fought in 680 CE in which Imam Hussain, grandson of the Prophet through his daughter Fatima and her husband Imam Ali, was slaughtered along with a small band of disciples in a bloody battle against Yazid, a tyrant who had usurped the Muslim caliphate. The slaughter of Ali is one of the pivotal events that led to a divide between the `mainstream` Sunni and Shi`a communities, with the latter ascribing special importance to the family of Ali. This event occurred in the Islamic month of Muharram, and it is for this reason that this month is observed with great solemnity in many parts of the Muslim world.
What is particularly striking about the observances of the month of Muharram in India is the prominent participation of Hindus in the rituals. This has been a feature of popular religion for centuries in large parts of India, and continues even today, albeit on a smaller scale. In towns and villages all over the country, Hindus join Muslims in lamenting the death of Hussain, by sponsoring or taking part in lamentation rituals and tazia processions.
In Lucknow, seat of the Shia Nawabs of Awadh, prominent Hindu noblemen like Raja Tikait Rai and Raja Bilas Rai built Imambaras to house alams, standards representing the Karbala event. The non-Muslim tribal Lambadi community in Andhra Pradesh have their own genre of Muharram lamentation songs in Telugu. Among certain Hindu castes in Rajasthan, the Karbala battle is recounted by staging plays in which the death of Imam Hussain is enacted, after which the women of the village come out in a procession, crying and cursing Yazid for his cruelty. This custom is known as pitna dalna. In large parts of north India, Hindus believe that if barren women slip under an alam moving in a procession they will be blessed with a child.
Perhaps the most intriguing case of Hindu veneration of Imam Hussain is to be found among the small Hussaini Brahmin sect, located mostly in Punjab, also known as Dutts or Mohiyals. Unlike other Brahmin clans, the Hussaini Brahmins have had a long martial tradition, which they trace back to the event of Karbala. They believe that an ancestor named Rahab traveled all the way from Punjab to Arabia and there developed close relations with Imam Hussain. In the battle of Karbala, Rahab fought in the army of the Imam against Yazid. His sons, too, joined him, and most of them were killed. The Imam, seeing Rahab`s love for him, bestowed upon him the title of Sultan or king, and told him to go back to India. It is because of this close bond between their ancestor Rahab and Imam Hussain that the Hussaini Brahmins got their name.
After Rahab and those of his sons who survived the battle of Karbala reached India, they settled down in the western Punjab and gradually a community grew around them. This sect, the Hussaini Brahmins, practised an intriguing blend of Islamic and Hindu practices, because of which they were commonly known as `half Hindu, half Muslim`. A popular saying about the Hussainis has it thus:
Wah Dutt Sultan,
Hindu ka dharm
Musalman ka iman,
Adha Hindu adha Musalman
(Oh! Dutt the king-With the religion of the Hindu
And the faith of the Muslim
Half Hindu, half Muslim)
But there is also another version of how the Dutts of Punjab came to be known as Hussaini Brahmins. One of the wives of Imam Hussain, the Persian princess Shahr Banu, was the sister of Chandra Lekha or Mehr Banu, the wife of an Indian king called Chandragupta. When it became clear that Yazid was adamant on wiping out the Imam, the Imam`s son `Ali ibn Hussain rushed off a letter to Chandragupta asking him for help against Yazid. When Chandragupta received the letter, he dispatched a large army to Iraq to assist the Imam. By the time they arrived, however, the Imam had been slain. In the town of Kufa, in present-day Iraq, they met with one Mukhtar Saqaffi, a disciple of the Imam, who arranged for them to stay in a special part of the town, which even today is known by the name of Dair-i-Hindiya or `the Indian quarter`.
Some Dutt Brahmins, under the leadership of one Bhurya Dutt, got together with Mukhtar Saqaffi to avenge the death of the Imam. They stayed behind in Kufa, while the rest returned to India. Here they built up a community of their own, calling themselves Hussaini Brahmins, and although they did not convert to Islam they kept alive the memory of their links with Imam Hussain.
The Hussaini Brahmins believe that Krishna had foretold the event of the Imam`s death at Karbala in the Gita. According to them, the Kalanki Purana, the last of eighteen Puranas, as well as the Atharva Veda, the fourth Veda, refer to Imam Hussain as the divine incarnation or avatar of the Kali Yug, the present age. They hold Imam Ali, Imam Hussain`s father, and son-in-law and cousin of the Prophet Muhammad, in particular reverence, referring to him with the honorific title of Om Murti.
The Hussaini Brahmins, along with other Hindu devotees of the Muslim Imam, are today a rapidly vanishing community. The younger generation abandoning their ancestral heritage, often now seen as embarrassingly deviant. No longer, it seems, can a comfortable liminality be sustained, and ambiguous identities seem crushed under the relentless pressure to conform to the logic of neatly demarcated `Hindu` and `Muslim` communities. And so, these and scores of other religious communities that once straddled the frontier between Hinduism and Islam seem destined for perdition, or else to folkloric curiosities that tell of a bygone age, when it was truly possible to be a bit of both `Hindu` as well as `Muslim` at the same time.
#3 Posted by zeemax on January 29, 2007 11:08:39 pm
Naqsh,
Thanks for the article in rememberance, and particularly the footnote ``Indeed both the authors translated above were Sunnis.``
This is timely in the current debate on the Shia/Sunni divide. In my mind, there is none as far as the external role of Islam overall is concerned as a major player in world affairs. However, an internal schism does exist at the highest spiritual level, which translates into a temporal and political one, once inflamed. That divide is easy game for others to prevent its becoming a monolithic juggernaut.
What do you think?
Thanks for the article in rememberance, and particularly the footnote ``Indeed both the authors translated above were Sunnis.``
This is timely in the current debate on the Shia/Sunni divide. In my mind, there is none as far as the external role of Islam overall is concerned as a major player in world affairs. However, an internal schism does exist at the highest spiritual level, which translates into a temporal and political one, once inflamed. That divide is easy game for others to prevent its becoming a monolithic juggernaut.
What do you think?
#4 Posted by harish_hyd on January 30, 2007 2:01:49 am
#2 by zeemax
How much of this is fact, and how much fiction? Intriguing nevertheless.
In my city of Hyderabad, Hindus accompany the Tazia procession with as much vigor as Muslims do. I`ve heard the same about other places, both towns and cities in India, but I can only vouch for Hyderabad.
How much of this is fact, and how much fiction? Intriguing nevertheless.
In my city of Hyderabad, Hindus accompany the Tazia procession with as much vigor as Muslims do. I`ve heard the same about other places, both towns and cities in India, but I can only vouch for Hyderabad.
#5 Posted by beady on January 30, 2007 4:12:25 am
#4 Harish: And in Bhopal and Mhow in MP. If nothing else, we as kids used to join in so that we had the most excellent meals afterwards. Taaziya Badau
#6 Posted by harish_hyd on January 30, 2007 6:12:55 am
#5 by beady
I`ve heard the same about Bangalore, Lucknow, and Delhi besides other cities and towns too.
I`ve heard the same about Bangalore, Lucknow, and Delhi besides other cities and towns too.
#7 Posted by KaalChakra on January 30, 2007 6:31:02 am
Tazia processions, eid celebrations, annual urs programs - have been part of them all :)
#8 Posted by Kulharee on January 30, 2007 8:17:33 am
This article reinforces the perception that Muslims have always solved their quarrels by resorting to violence. Which is pretty consistent with how they solve their disputes with non-Muslims. With Islam, it’s my way or the highway. Today, 38 pilgrims in Karbala joined Hazrat Imam Hussain and the other 70 and some Pakistani Shias reached there as well during the last week. The place must be getting very crowded.
#9 Posted by kalihawa on January 30, 2007 8:37:14 am
Re-enacting the events of Karbala or flogging oneself to commemorate some hideous past is completely irrational. It is quite masochistic to even observe Moharram.
#10 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on January 30, 2007 9:03:00 am
Asif Sahib,
Thank you for sharing this passionate commemoration of Imam Hussain`s ordeal. The legend concerning the Hussaini Brahmins by Zeemax in #2 is also very inspiring. I have always believed that Islam was hijacked by the Ommayyads after the Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) death in 632 AD.
Islam, as expressed by Imam Ali and his son, Imam Hussain, was always more compassionate, less aggressive, and more egalitarian than the oligarchy represented by Ommayyad Quraish Meccan Arab-centric policy of the descendants of the Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) most serious and committed enemy, Abu Sufyan.
No wonder that so many Hindus sympathize with Imam Hussain and are usually very pro-Shia.
Thank you for sharing this passionate commemoration of Imam Hussain`s ordeal. The legend concerning the Hussaini Brahmins by Zeemax in #2 is also very inspiring. I have always believed that Islam was hijacked by the Ommayyads after the Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) death in 632 AD.
Islam, as expressed by Imam Ali and his son, Imam Hussain, was always more compassionate, less aggressive, and more egalitarian than the oligarchy represented by Ommayyad Quraish Meccan Arab-centric policy of the descendants of the Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) most serious and committed enemy, Abu Sufyan.
No wonder that so many Hindus sympathize with Imam Hussain and are usually very pro-Shia.
#11 Posted by Urstruly on January 30, 2007 12:08:01 pm
Imam Hussain was not the first and neither he will be the last who died for a cause. As a matter of fact when he requested a safe passage for himself and his family as an exile he forgo his cause as well. This turns the whole episode into a gruesome and shameless murder. But what is done is done.
What really worries me is the cult like mindset of the people who claim to be his followers. If one takes the example of Qramtah and Assassins of Hassan bin Sabah (The old man of the mountain) this cult has potential to be extremely deadly. Today a shia child is raised with the mindset that those who are not shia are the followers of the murderers of Hussain; and that really worries me. Personally, me, my ancestors have nothing to do with what happened to Hussain 1400 years ago; this is besides the point that everybody thinks that what happened to him was unjust and an attrocity but on the other hand shias have turned it into a ritual to formally curse everyone and everything that is not shia. It worries me. Worst of all the rememberance of Hussain (Maatam) has been turned into a form of worship and followers expect God`s blessing (swaab) for what they do. This is an innovation in the religion and it is detrimental to their own well being in the afterlife.
The CIA has funded some organizations in Pakistan who committs act of shameless violence on shias after the Revolution in Iran. These madarchods have to be eliminated by using state apparatus to its fullest. I wouldn`t mind if these very faujis Bugti them. As a matter of fact American government has to be held responsible for funding, training, and creating these thugs. They must be asked whether they are with us in the war against terror or against us. They just cannot keep on funding these nuts on one end and expect our cooperation for something else. Personally, the antics of these thugs turn my stomach. Frankly one has to be pretty shameless to chalk the walls with slogans like ``Yazeed Amir ul momineen hain`` ugghhh. what a mind job.
#12 Posted by Kulharee on January 30, 2007 1:06:17 pm
Re: # 11
Urstruly Sahib, the reason your ancestors have nothing to do with it is because they were busy worshiping monkeys in India when Imam Hussain was being butchered by bayghyarat thugs.
Urstruly Sahib, the reason your ancestors have nothing to do with it is because they were busy worshiping monkeys in India when Imam Hussain was being butchered by bayghyarat thugs.
#13 Posted by Naqshbandi on January 30, 2007 1:16:33 pm
urstruly,
i am saddened at the first paragraph in your number 11. it shows disrespect for imam e aali maqaam --a trait of nasibis--not that i am saying you are one of those. the terrorist organisations like sipah e sahaba and laskhar e tayyiba etc., as u mention rightly, are wahabis and nasibis. they think all shias are kafirs to be killed. they think (nauzibillah) that yazid paleed was the rightful leader. israr ahmad is another nasibi as was maudoodi. dr. israr got his daughter married on the 10th of muharram. what a khabis thing to do. traditional sunnis on the other hand have always loved the ahl al bayt with a passion not even shias can match. the difference is for us love of ahl e bayt does not equal hatred of sahaba and we do not mourn the blessed imam with extreme means such as flagellation as none of the earliest muslims did that. it is against shariah. indeed even in classical shia texts it is written that such acts are unislamic.
look, imam zayn al abidin alayhisalam who actually witnessed the martyrdom of his father [imam hussain] and his entire family never remembered imam paak in the manner shia do today.
the problem is with extremists on either side who kill each other and cause hatred: extremist shia called rafidis and extremist kharijis and nasibis who call themselves sunni but are actually wahabis.
the main body of the muslims i.e. traditionalist sunnis (incl. sufis) and moderate shia have lived together for millenia with no problem despite having theological differences.
so yes, these nasibis should be killed like the dogs they are.
Ya Rasul Allah!
Ya Abu Bakr!
Ya Umar!
Ya Usman!
Ya Ali!
Ya Hassan!
Ya Hussain!
Ya Fatima!
Ya Ghawth al Azam!
All these are sunni naaray!
i am saddened at the first paragraph in your number 11. it shows disrespect for imam e aali maqaam --a trait of nasibis--not that i am saying you are one of those. the terrorist organisations like sipah e sahaba and laskhar e tayyiba etc., as u mention rightly, are wahabis and nasibis. they think all shias are kafirs to be killed. they think (nauzibillah) that yazid paleed was the rightful leader. israr ahmad is another nasibi as was maudoodi. dr. israr got his daughter married on the 10th of muharram. what a khabis thing to do. traditional sunnis on the other hand have always loved the ahl al bayt with a passion not even shias can match. the difference is for us love of ahl e bayt does not equal hatred of sahaba and we do not mourn the blessed imam with extreme means such as flagellation as none of the earliest muslims did that. it is against shariah. indeed even in classical shia texts it is written that such acts are unislamic.
look, imam zayn al abidin alayhisalam who actually witnessed the martyrdom of his father [imam hussain] and his entire family never remembered imam paak in the manner shia do today.
the problem is with extremists on either side who kill each other and cause hatred: extremist shia called rafidis and extremist kharijis and nasibis who call themselves sunni but are actually wahabis.
the main body of the muslims i.e. traditionalist sunnis (incl. sufis) and moderate shia have lived together for millenia with no problem despite having theological differences.
so yes, these nasibis should be killed like the dogs they are.
Ya Rasul Allah!
Ya Abu Bakr!
Ya Umar!
Ya Usman!
Ya Ali!
Ya Hassan!
Ya Hussain!
Ya Fatima!
Ya Ghawth al Azam!
All these are sunni naaray!
#14 Posted by Naqshbandi on January 30, 2007 1:23:00 pm
Re: # 10
i don`t agree with all you`ve written. please remember that hazrat abu sufyaan became a muslim during the lifetime of the Prophet and was a great Sahabi as was Hazrat Amir Muawiyah his son. Imam Hassan would NEVER have handed over the rulership of the Ummah i.e. the Caliphate to him if he had thought otherwise. That Yazid the Accursed turned out to be a bad apple is not the fault of his illustrious father. You cannot blame the father for the sins of the son.
We consider Yazid a kafir. As for the rest of the Umayyads after Yazid, with the exception of Hazrat Umar ibn Abd al Aziz, I agree, the rest were tyrants and very bad Muslims and a disgrace who treated the Aal of the Prophet very badly.
i don`t agree with all you`ve written. please remember that hazrat abu sufyaan became a muslim during the lifetime of the Prophet and was a great Sahabi as was Hazrat Amir Muawiyah his son. Imam Hassan would NEVER have handed over the rulership of the Ummah i.e. the Caliphate to him if he had thought otherwise. That Yazid the Accursed turned out to be a bad apple is not the fault of his illustrious father. You cannot blame the father for the sins of the son.
We consider Yazid a kafir. As for the rest of the Umayyads after Yazid, with the exception of Hazrat Umar ibn Abd al Aziz, I agree, the rest were tyrants and very bad Muslims and a disgrace who treated the Aal of the Prophet very badly.
#15 Posted by Naqshbandi on January 30, 2007 1:27:24 pm
Re: # 8
Imam Paak never went looking for trouble. When all other avenues were exhausted and the only options left to him were to either pledge allegiance to the dog Yazid and thus accept a unjust person as ruler over the Muslims or to fight, Imam Paak chose to follow the honourable path of martyrdom thus fulfilling the words of his Grandfather sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam.
He saved Islam with his blood.
Ya Hussain!
Imam Paak never went looking for trouble. When all other avenues were exhausted and the only options left to him were to either pledge allegiance to the dog Yazid and thus accept a unjust person as ruler over the Muslims or to fight, Imam Paak chose to follow the honourable path of martyrdom thus fulfilling the words of his Grandfather sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam.
He saved Islam with his blood.
Ya Hussain!
#16 Posted by Naqshbandi on January 30, 2007 1:28:30 pm
Re: # 7
i`m surprised but happy!
most shias in india are in lucknow right~?
i`m surprised but happy!
most shias in india are in lucknow right~?
#17 Posted by Naqshbandi on January 30, 2007 1:31:04 pm
zeemax 3:
i agree. external forces are trying to exploit the sunni-shia schism for their own nefarious designs using extremists on both sides [rafidis and wahabis] as pawns.
i agree. external forces are trying to exploit the sunni-shia schism for their own nefarious designs using extremists on both sides [rafidis and wahabis] as pawns.
#18 Posted by nasah on January 30, 2007 1:36:09 pm
Naqsh -- a very well translated piece -- it brought tears in my eyes despite those improbable flowery felicitations -- but then again Muharram is no Muharram without Maatum, Mursia and and a good Mursiasgo....
``Huway jatay haiN ub dudndhlay nishaN say`-- kay iss mehfil hum aaye kahaN say``
thanks
``Huway jatay haiN ub dudndhlay nishaN say`-- kay iss mehfil hum aaye kahaN say``
thanks
#19 Posted by Naqshbandi on January 30, 2007 1:38:31 pm
Re: # 18
you`re welcome! ``wah Hussain! aap gustaakhon se bhii kalimah parwaa lete hain!`` :D
i didn`t add any `flowery felicitations` to the translation. it was literal word for word--except i removed some arabic salutations after names and titles!
you`re welcome! ``wah Hussain! aap gustaakhon se bhii kalimah parwaa lete hain!`` :D
i didn`t add any `flowery felicitations` to the translation. it was literal word for word--except i removed some arabic salutations after names and titles!
#20 Posted by Urstruly on January 30, 2007 2:02:20 pm
Re: # 13
Let us not just get carried away. I am neither criticizing Imam Hussain nor trying to lessen the tragedy he and his family had to endure. But what I said was just a statement of a fact.
I don`t know about Dr. Israr but Moududi definitely is not Nasibi. As a matter of fact every Shia who had read his magnum opus ``Khilafat aur Mulukiat`` has found deep respect for his absolutely balanced analysis of Khilafat of Four Righteous ones. As far as what Dr. Israr did was not legally wrong from Islamic point of view but Islam is more than just legalise; it has a very strong moral dimension as well. I do not think that there is anything wrong with getting married on day when your next day neighbor dies but it is absolutely discurteous and not nice. While Dr. Israr was not being very nice but the point that point that no day is a special day in Islam could have been made through some other way. Even if Shias are absolutely wrong, getting married on 10 Muharram is plain discourteous and goes against the teachings of Holy Prophet (pbuh) about ones neighbors.
And what is this business with ``Ya``. You know very well that invoking the name of anyone other than Allah is shirk (polytheism) and strictly Haram (forbidden).
If ya Ali or Ya uthman (nauzubillah) is right then why saying Ya zia-ul-Haq, Ya Quaid-e-eAzam, Ya Ram, Ya abba ji, or Ya Ishwar would be wrong.
#22 Posted by Naqshbandi on January 30, 2007 2:31:09 pm
Re: # 21
because they are saints of god and he has instructed us via his prophet to call on them for help.
tirmidhi sharif sahih hadith: ali is the helper of all muslims till the day of judgement.
because they are saints of god and he has instructed us via his prophet to call on them for help.
tirmidhi sharif sahih hadith: ali is the helper of all muslims till the day of judgement.
#23 Posted by Naqshbandi on January 30, 2007 2:34:31 pm
Re: # 22
it is only shirk if u think they can help INDEPENDENTLY of Allah`s Will and NO ONE believes that.
Imam Zayn al Abidin said:
Ya Rahmatulilalameen!
Adrikni Zayn al Abidin!
In the Battle of Yamamah, Hazrat Abu Bakr turned towards Madinah and shouted,
``Ya Muhammada!``
it is only shirk if u think they can help INDEPENDENTLY of Allah`s Will and NO ONE believes that.
Imam Zayn al Abidin said:
Ya Rahmatulilalameen!
Adrikni Zayn al Abidin!
In the Battle of Yamamah, Hazrat Abu Bakr turned towards Madinah and shouted,
``Ya Muhammada!``
#24 Posted by Urstruly on January 30, 2007 2:53:05 pm
Re: # 23
As a matter of principle what Holy prophet (pbuh) did, forms the sunnah and not anyone else. So what Abu-Bakr had done would have been an error. There is absolutely no hadith that attribute anything to him (pbuh) that he ever invoked any previous prophet`s or his ancestors name in distress. The only time he used the word ``ya`` to address dead people was whenever he happened to pass by a graveyard; he would say ``Assalam-o-Alaikum ya ehlul qaboor`` meaning ``peace be upon you O dwellers of necropolis``. It sounds more like addressing someone than invoking someone.
I have personally asked many people who utter ``Ya Ali`` or even ``Ya Panjtan pak`` (nauzubillah min zalik) mindlessly as to what was in their mind when they were invoking Ali or panjtan (whoever these are), and everyone of them has told me that they were only invoking Ali and they did not have even a hint of Allah in their minds.
Asif, why innovate things in the religion which take people away from the core of the message. Even something done with best of intentions turn into practices as horrible as shirk. May Allah save us all from the Hellfire and show us the right way,
As a matter of principle what Holy prophet (pbuh) did, forms the sunnah and not anyone else. So what Abu-Bakr had done would have been an error. There is absolutely no hadith that attribute anything to him (pbuh) that he ever invoked any previous prophet`s or his ancestors name in distress. The only time he used the word ``ya`` to address dead people was whenever he happened to pass by a graveyard; he would say ``Assalam-o-Alaikum ya ehlul qaboor`` meaning ``peace be upon you O dwellers of necropolis``. It sounds more like addressing someone than invoking someone.
I have personally asked many people who utter ``Ya Ali`` or even ``Ya Panjtan pak`` (nauzubillah min zalik) mindlessly as to what was in their mind when they were invoking Ali or panjtan (whoever these are), and everyone of them has told me that they were only invoking Ali and they did not have even a hint of Allah in their minds.
Asif, why innovate things in the religion which take people away from the core of the message. Even something done with best of intentions turn into practices as horrible as shirk. May Allah save us all from the Hellfire and show us the right way,
#25 Posted by Naqshbandi on January 30, 2007 3:05:46 pm
A marsiya in Punjabi by Huzoor Pir Sayyid Mihr Ali Shah Chishti Sahib of Golra SharifThe translation (from the official website):
- The messenger has brought the henna prepared from the blood of death
- This henna belongs to Lady Fatimah (Radhi Allahu Ta`ala `Anha)
daughter of the Holy Prophet (Sallallahu alayhi wa Sallam) and mother
of Imam Hussain (Radhi Allahu Ta`ala `Anhu) ;
- That is why it is unlike any other type of henna
It is made of the sacred blood of Imam Hussain (Radhi Allahu
Ta`ala `Anhu) the Martyr.
- Hussain the unique pearl of the Holy Prophet (Sallallahu alayhi wa
Sallam) and Hazrat Ali (Karram Allah Wajhah) ; The treasure of Lady
Fatimah (Radhi Allahu Ta`ala `Anha)
- Who wearing the bracelet of his Holy Grandfather (Sallallahu alayhi
wa Sallam) , set out towards the site of his martydom
- The Holy Prophet (Sallallahu alayhi wa Sallam) , Hazrat Ali (Karram
Allah Wajhah) and Lady Fatimah (Radhi Allahu Ta`ala `Anha) all called
out :
`` O Son Hussain (Radhi Allahu Ta`ala `Anhu) ! Come apace to join us
in paradise`` We yearn for thee moment by moment
- O Prince Hussain (Radhi Allahu Ta`ala `Anhu) ! The leaf of thy
henna shrub is green.
The men of Kufa have joined hands to pounce upon thee
- O Prince Hussain (Radhi Allahu Ta`ala `Anhu) ! The leaf of thy
henna shrub is yellow
In the desperate situation that befell thee, thou consigned thy kith
and kin to the care and protection of thy Lord Allah ! Alas ! The
calamity of Karbala overtook thee.
- O Prince Hussain (Radhi Allahu Ta`ala `Anhu) The colour of thy
henna is enchanting ;
The whole world mourns thee
- The entire creation wrings its hands in regret over thy unjust and
violent death
- O Prince Hussain (Radhi Allahu Ta`ala `Anhu) The colour of thy
henna is red
The muslim ummah looks up to thee as a model and feels the pain of
grief of the events of Karbala
- This henna comes from the beautiful garden of the Holy Prophet`s
(Sallallahu alayhi wa Sallam) household.
It belongs to the purified members of that household, that is why it
is like any other type of henna.
- On the one hand , the innocent , thirsty children yearned for
water, and were also subjected to a volley of arrows by the enemy.
- And on the other hand Imam Hussain (Radhi Allahu Ta`ala `Anhu)
himself was attacked on all sides with the sword.
- The great Lord had willed it thus, and had predestined to grant
thee ( Imam Hussain Radhi Allahu Ta`ala `Anhu )the rank of a martyr
- Otherwise he had all power to come to thy help in any manner he
wished.
- O Mehr Ali Shah ! The world is transient . Only the Great Lord
shall live on for ever.
#26 Posted by Naqshbandi on January 30, 2007 3:06:49 pm
Here the kalam of Pir Sahib (marsiya) recited by Sayyid Fasihuddin here:
You can listen to it recited by Sayyid Fasihuddin sahib at
http://www.naatsharif.com by typing in ``mehndi`` in the search box.
You can listen to it recited by Sayyid Fasihuddin sahib at
http://www.naatsharif.com by typing in ``mehndi`` in the search box.
#27 Posted by Naqshbandi on January 30, 2007 3:18:16 pm
Re: # 24
It is not innovation.
Hadith of Prophet:
My companions are like the stars, follow any one of them and you will be guided. Therefore to follow Hazrat Abu Bakr is following the Prophet.
How DARE you suggest that the most beloved to the Prophet of the whole Ummah, the most afzal after all Prophets in creation, committed shirk. The hadith of Ya Muhammada is recorded and battle of yamamah is history. So now you and other maudoodites know islam better than Sayyidina Abu Bakr? Or the aimmah e paak?
And what about all the others at the Battle of Yamamah? Would they stay silent if `shirk` as you call it was being committed? Would Hazrat Imam Zayn al Abidin have said Ya Rahmatulil alameen, adrikni [help me!] if it was shirk?
Allah save the Ummah from mullahs like you!
with all due respect, of course.
Nara e Haidari!
Ya Ali!
The grandfather of Ismail Dehlavi, whom you admire, and who wrote the utterly burnable book Taqwiyatul Iman, thus spreading wahabism in india, was Shah Wali Allah Muhadiss Delhvi. He (rahmatullah alayhi) writes that whenever I am faced with a problem I turn towards Najaf Ashraf in Iraq (i.e. the grave of Imam Ali) and say the Naad e Ali -i.e. Ya Ali Madad (in longer form). He also says his ancestors have always done this!
It is not innovation.
Hadith of Prophet:
My companions are like the stars, follow any one of them and you will be guided. Therefore to follow Hazrat Abu Bakr is following the Prophet.
How DARE you suggest that the most beloved to the Prophet of the whole Ummah, the most afzal after all Prophets in creation, committed shirk. The hadith of Ya Muhammada is recorded and battle of yamamah is history. So now you and other maudoodites know islam better than Sayyidina Abu Bakr? Or the aimmah e paak?
And what about all the others at the Battle of Yamamah? Would they stay silent if `shirk` as you call it was being committed? Would Hazrat Imam Zayn al Abidin have said Ya Rahmatulil alameen, adrikni [help me!] if it was shirk?
Allah save the Ummah from mullahs like you!
with all due respect, of course.
Nara e Haidari!
Ya Ali!
The grandfather of Ismail Dehlavi, whom you admire, and who wrote the utterly burnable book Taqwiyatul Iman, thus spreading wahabism in india, was Shah Wali Allah Muhadiss Delhvi. He (rahmatullah alayhi) writes that whenever I am faced with a problem I turn towards Najaf Ashraf in Iraq (i.e. the grave of Imam Ali) and say the Naad e Ali -i.e. Ya Ali Madad (in longer form). He also says his ancestors have always done this!
#28 Posted by Naqshbandi on January 30, 2007 3:22:08 pm
Re: # 24
and the Prophet also ordered us to follow the Sunnah of the Rightly Guides Caliphs after him.
Otherwise, for example, why do u read tarawih in jamaat? That was an innovation started by Hazrat Umar. Why do you have i`raab on the Koran? That was another innovation started by the Caliphs! Why do u have minarets in mosques? That is another innovation...
I am saddened that you have turned out to be another Wahabi. Sad...
and the Prophet also ordered us to follow the Sunnah of the Rightly Guides Caliphs after him.
Otherwise, for example, why do u read tarawih in jamaat? That was an innovation started by Hazrat Umar. Why do you have i`raab on the Koran? That was another innovation started by the Caliphs! Why do u have minarets in mosques? That is another innovation...
I am saddened that you have turned out to be another Wahabi. Sad...
#29 Posted by sattar2 on January 30, 2007 4:53:22 pm
What started as a tribute to Imam Hussain has turned into a spitting match between two brothers in faith …
… no wonder ummah is going to the dogs …
#30 Posted by sattar2 on January 30, 2007 7:06:54 pm
Urstruly,
… what Naqsh is saying is that … either you belong to the Ahle-Sunnah Ala Hazrat Imam Malik Wallahu Barelvi Sufian-e-karam W`ahle-ba`it jamaat-e-pir-o-murshad traditional Hanafi group …
……….… or you are a kaffir.
Naqsh,
… Urstruly’s response is … ’fcuk you, too …’
I hope this is now clear …
#31 Posted by nasah on January 30, 2007 9:48:43 pm
Naqsh miaN -- no need to go whirling overboard..... Time for quiet reflection about our regression in Iraq!
#32 Posted by Urstruly on January 30, 2007 10:24:22 pm
Re: # 28
THere is no need to go into an emotional outburst, which is a sure sign of ones weak position. You must try to understand the issue objectively. There are two kinds of innovations:
1. Innovation in deen i.e. belief system
2. Innovation that does not change or add to the deen.
Building of minarets, or putting accents on Quranic text, or settling a dispute on Traweeh through ijtehad is not an addition or alteration in the belief system. But saying that whirling like dervesh or dancing on the tunes of quwali is a way to connect to God is an innovation into the deen i.e. belief system. The reason is that the Holy prophet (pbuh) has already told us the ways to connect to Allah and any other way does not have his authorization. Saying that by dancing on the grave of some long dead guy connects me to God or it earns me blessing (sawab) is pure speculation; even though it is a feel good speculation it has no authority as such.
One thing for me is so absolutely impossible to comprehend that when we can invoke Allah the Ultimate at any time then why invoke Ghair-Allah, be it the Prophet (pbuh) himself; why?
A few months ago I was invited at a colleague`s house for dinner. The family had three teenage kids, who were also present there. Incidentally, on the same day it was either Shab Bara`t or Shab Miraj, and the lady of the household prepared some elaborate sweet dishes to comemorate the occasion. WE struck a conversation at the dinner table and the lady of the house said. ``Look we live in this foreign unislamic society and if we do not do these little things, the kids will forget about their religion. We have to do these things``. I said, ``I have been sitting here for the past couple of hours and I see that none of your kids or even you parents have offered any of the prayers during this time; and you have missed the time for at least two prayers. Have you substituted namaz with two sweet dishes per year. How do you know cooking sweet dishes have any sawab value?``
Of corse I wasn`t that blunt, but the point was made effectively. The fact of the matter is that too many innovative rituals HAVE replaced the teachings of Holy Prophet (pbuh). It all started with good intentions, and it has turned us away from the religion.
By definition even if Abu Bakr (RA) uttered the words ``Ya Mohammad`` at the battle of yamama and it is in the book of Tirmidhi, it does not make it a hadith; because hadith is the saying and action of Prophet (pbuh). All it is, is the saying of Abu Bakr. If the first criteria of checking the authenticity of hadith is to verify it with Qura`n then anything that Sahabeen, Tabaieen, and Taba-Tabayeen said, must also have to be verified with Qura`n AND Hadith first. If it is a religious issue, then it becomes a legal precedence, even though a new ijtehad can change it and if it is a secular issue then it is non binding.
THere is no need to go into an emotional outburst, which is a sure sign of ones weak position. You must try to understand the issue objectively. There are two kinds of innovations:
1. Innovation in deen i.e. belief system
2. Innovation that does not change or add to the deen.
Building of minarets, or putting accents on Quranic text, or settling a dispute on Traweeh through ijtehad is not an addition or alteration in the belief system. But saying that whirling like dervesh or dancing on the tunes of quwali is a way to connect to God is an innovation into the deen i.e. belief system. The reason is that the Holy prophet (pbuh) has already told us the ways to connect to Allah and any other way does not have his authorization. Saying that by dancing on the grave of some long dead guy connects me to God or it earns me blessing (sawab) is pure speculation; even though it is a feel good speculation it has no authority as such.
One thing for me is so absolutely impossible to comprehend that when we can invoke Allah the Ultimate at any time then why invoke Ghair-Allah, be it the Prophet (pbuh) himself; why?
A few months ago I was invited at a colleague`s house for dinner. The family had three teenage kids, who were also present there. Incidentally, on the same day it was either Shab Bara`t or Shab Miraj, and the lady of the household prepared some elaborate sweet dishes to comemorate the occasion. WE struck a conversation at the dinner table and the lady of the house said. ``Look we live in this foreign unislamic society and if we do not do these little things, the kids will forget about their religion. We have to do these things``. I said, ``I have been sitting here for the past couple of hours and I see that none of your kids or even you parents have offered any of the prayers during this time; and you have missed the time for at least two prayers. Have you substituted namaz with two sweet dishes per year. How do you know cooking sweet dishes have any sawab value?``
Of corse I wasn`t that blunt, but the point was made effectively. The fact of the matter is that too many innovative rituals HAVE replaced the teachings of Holy Prophet (pbuh). It all started with good intentions, and it has turned us away from the religion.
By definition even if Abu Bakr (RA) uttered the words ``Ya Mohammad`` at the battle of yamama and it is in the book of Tirmidhi, it does not make it a hadith; because hadith is the saying and action of Prophet (pbuh). All it is, is the saying of Abu Bakr. If the first criteria of checking the authenticity of hadith is to verify it with Qura`n then anything that Sahabeen, Tabaieen, and Taba-Tabayeen said, must also have to be verified with Qura`n AND Hadith first. If it is a religious issue, then it becomes a legal precedence, even though a new ijtehad can change it and if it is a secular issue then it is non binding.
#33 Posted by Urstruly on January 30, 2007 10:29:33 pm
Re: # 30
`` Urstruly’s response is … ’fcuk you, too …’ ``
This mode of conversation is the typical tradition of Mirza and his progeny. We discuss issues with ettiquettes and mutual respect. Yes, tempers flare, but no one calls the other ``Kanjriyon ke bachchay` as your Mirza did.
Thanks for chiming in, but I see no place for you in this dialogue.
`` Urstruly’s response is … ’fcuk you, too …’ ``
This mode of conversation is the typical tradition of Mirza and his progeny. We discuss issues with ettiquettes and mutual respect. Yes, tempers flare, but no one calls the other ``Kanjriyon ke bachchay` as your Mirza did.
Thanks for chiming in, but I see no place for you in this dialogue.
#34 Posted by MantoLives on January 30, 2007 11:03:14 pm
Excellent article...
``There cannot be a better and more illustrious example than that of Husein who was the greatest embodiment of courage, conviction and sacrifice and every Mussalman in particular should take the great example of his life and service and follow it.``
M.A.Jinnah on the 1300th commemoration of Muharram.
``There cannot be a better and more illustrious example than that of Husein who was the greatest embodiment of courage, conviction and sacrifice and every Mussalman in particular should take the great example of his life and service and follow it.``
M.A.Jinnah on the 1300th commemoration of Muharram.
#35 Posted by goonga on January 31, 2007 4:59:36 am
``Ahsan``(Best) article Asif!
#33 by Urstruly on January 30, 2007 10:29pm PT
right. I was just thinking where he was so far?
Urstruly!
You are one of my very few favorite interactors/writers at chowk since I visited this site very first time (you can see my interactor page) so I always read yours interacts.
To my memory you have written almost 150++ times that
“What really worries me is the cult like mindset of the people who claim to be his followers.” Certainly about shias and more like this as
“I am trying to make here is that Shia-ism is nothing but a cult”
and “a shia child is raised on the basis of hatered for his fellow Muslim.”
But my dear friend after reading your such comments for so many times, you seem to be like a child is raised on the basis of hatered for his fellow Muslim.
I believe you have studied a lot more than many muslims do but I think you need to study what you did without rage. I think you can do.
The questions you raises are not difficult to answer but if you make a lil bit effort you can find answers for yourself. I study only Quran but still I find answers.
Good Luck!
#33 by Urstruly on January 30, 2007 10:29pm PT
right. I was just thinking where he was so far?
Urstruly!
You are one of my very few favorite interactors/writers at chowk since I visited this site very first time (you can see my interactor page) so I always read yours interacts.
To my memory you have written almost 150++ times that
“What really worries me is the cult like mindset of the people who claim to be his followers.” Certainly about shias and more like this as
“I am trying to make here is that Shia-ism is nothing but a cult”
and “a shia child is raised on the basis of hatered for his fellow Muslim.”
But my dear friend after reading your such comments for so many times, you seem to be like a child is raised on the basis of hatered for his fellow Muslim.
I believe you have studied a lot more than many muslims do but I think you need to study what you did without rage. I think you can do.
The questions you raises are not difficult to answer but if you make a lil bit effort you can find answers for yourself. I study only Quran but still I find answers.
Good Luck!
#36 Posted by KaalChakra on January 31, 2007 7:02:57 am
re: Naqshbandi # 16
``most shias in india are in lucknow right~?``
I would think so, Naqsh. It wasn`t a big deal, and lots of Hindus joined in in various ways.
``most shias in india are in lucknow right~?``
I would think so, Naqsh. It wasn`t a big deal, and lots of Hindus joined in in various ways.
#37 Posted by Urstruly on January 31, 2007 7:36:20 am
Re: # 35
I understand your concern, but if you look around, currently a genocide is happening in Iraq as we speak. The two fighting factions who are perpetrating this vile act divide themselves on the basis of shia and sunni divide. It is a fact that an overwhelming majority of sunnis considers Imam Hussain to be the righteous one, and the one who was wronged. They also consider Ali (RA) to be the fourth righteous caliph - you might have noticed that in the interacts below and the article itself. But on the other hand shias have standardized the practice of cursing all companions of Holy Prophet (pbuh) as one of their religious duties. The practice is called ``Tabra`a`` and it irks the hell out of every fair minded Muslims including some shias. It is just another matter what is the true status of companions and how Qura`n and Hadith attributes a special status to the companions who made great sacrifices in the cause of Islam. But what really worries me :) is the act of Tabra`a` which is nothing but cultivating a cult mindset. I mean for heavens sake, these people died 15 centuries ago then what is the point in so much hatered and its continued cultivation. Why not work towards filling the divide rather than working on widening it further.
I once attended a khutba by Haq Nawaz Jhangvi in a mosque in Karachi; it is the same a-hole who started the anti-shia violence in pakistan right after the Iranian Revolution. It is one thing that he was a firebrand but the core theme of his lecture revolved around the practice of Tabra`a. That was the only part of his argument that had some `meat` in it; other than that it was all hot air.
Yes Tabara`a is abhorent and it turns my stomach but Jhangavi`s speech had an opposite effect on me and the group of my friends. (In those days we were into lectures and debates and used to make extra effort to find accomplished speakers from any group and would try to attend their lectures, just to learn the techniques). We were so irked that wherever we would find any wall chalking by Janghvi`s group, Anajmun-e-Sipah-e- Sahaba, we would make a cartoon of a donkey beside it, since they abbreviated the name of their organization as A.S.S., which they actually were. Later when too many donkeys started appearing on the walls they changed the name of their organization to A.S.S.P (P for Pakistan).
I understand your concern, but if you look around, currently a genocide is happening in Iraq as we speak. The two fighting factions who are perpetrating this vile act divide themselves on the basis of shia and sunni divide. It is a fact that an overwhelming majority of sunnis considers Imam Hussain to be the righteous one, and the one who was wronged. They also consider Ali (RA) to be the fourth righteous caliph - you might have noticed that in the interacts below and the article itself. But on the other hand shias have standardized the practice of cursing all companions of Holy Prophet (pbuh) as one of their religious duties. The practice is called ``Tabra`a`` and it irks the hell out of every fair minded Muslims including some shias. It is just another matter what is the true status of companions and how Qura`n and Hadith attributes a special status to the companions who made great sacrifices in the cause of Islam. But what really worries me :) is the act of Tabra`a` which is nothing but cultivating a cult mindset. I mean for heavens sake, these people died 15 centuries ago then what is the point in so much hatered and its continued cultivation. Why not work towards filling the divide rather than working on widening it further.
I once attended a khutba by Haq Nawaz Jhangvi in a mosque in Karachi; it is the same a-hole who started the anti-shia violence in pakistan right after the Iranian Revolution. It is one thing that he was a firebrand but the core theme of his lecture revolved around the practice of Tabra`a. That was the only part of his argument that had some `meat` in it; other than that it was all hot air.
Yes Tabara`a is abhorent and it turns my stomach but Jhangavi`s speech had an opposite effect on me and the group of my friends. (In those days we were into lectures and debates and used to make extra effort to find accomplished speakers from any group and would try to attend their lectures, just to learn the techniques). We were so irked that wherever we would find any wall chalking by Janghvi`s group, Anajmun-e-Sipah-e- Sahaba, we would make a cartoon of a donkey beside it, since they abbreviated the name of their organization as A.S.S., which they actually were. Later when too many donkeys started appearing on the walls they changed the name of their organization to A.S.S.P (P for Pakistan).
#38 Posted by Kulharee on January 31, 2007 7:56:36 am
Re: # 37
Urstruly, wouldn’t it be better if you shut up with your ignorant and insignificant self instead of worrying about what other people believe or do? What is it to you (personally) if someone curses the dead morons? Do you really believe that someone made you incharge of how people should react to historical dramas? Does anyone really give a shyt about who died and who didn’t? How come it is only Desis (mostly of Deobandi persuasion) who have made this the reason d’etre to find something to mourn about. It would be much better for jokers like you to get a job instead of worrying about Shias and Sunnis. People like Dr. Israr Ahmad and Moudoodi are the certified scum of the earth, worthy of being paraded in nude on the Mall road and exported to Mecca and be replaced with concrete pillars that Hajis throw stones at.
Urstruly, wouldn’t it be better if you shut up with your ignorant and insignificant self instead of worrying about what other people believe or do? What is it to you (personally) if someone curses the dead morons? Do you really believe that someone made you incharge of how people should react to historical dramas? Does anyone really give a shyt about who died and who didn’t? How come it is only Desis (mostly of Deobandi persuasion) who have made this the reason d’etre to find something to mourn about. It would be much better for jokers like you to get a job instead of worrying about Shias and Sunnis. People like Dr. Israr Ahmad and Moudoodi are the certified scum of the earth, worthy of being paraded in nude on the Mall road and exported to Mecca and be replaced with concrete pillars that Hajis throw stones at.
#39 Posted by Urstruly on January 31, 2007 9:03:37 am
Re: # 38
Since you are a Quadiani, I don`t see any reason why you should be poking your nose into this matter. But if you are practicing your quadiani oratory skills, as it is evident from your language, then go right ahead. This is something and only thing you people excel at.
Since you are a Quadiani, I don`t see any reason why you should be poking your nose into this matter. But if you are practicing your quadiani oratory skills, as it is evident from your language, then go right ahead. This is something and only thing you people excel at.
#40 Posted by Kulharee on January 31, 2007 9:16:17 am
Re: # 39
Yeah, and your idea of excelling is killing one another. You guys couldn’t take a day’s break even the day after the death of the Prophet. You have since been doing that, and will continue doing it. When you can’t stand to truth, the only thing you resort to is saying oh he is a Qadiyani. To you may be it is an insult, but to us it is a matter of pride to belong to the faith of the Last Prophet of Islam Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadiyan Shareef, whose status is only second and equal to Allah.
Yeah, and your idea of excelling is killing one another. You guys couldn’t take a day’s break even the day after the death of the Prophet. You have since been doing that, and will continue doing it. When you can’t stand to truth, the only thing you resort to is saying oh he is a Qadiyani. To you may be it is an insult, but to us it is a matter of pride to belong to the faith of the Last Prophet of Islam Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadiyan Shareef, whose status is only second and equal to Allah.
#41 Posted by Kulharee on January 31, 2007 9:40:04 am
Naqshbandi… what do you think of today’s news about 8 British-Pakis arrested for plotting to behead and post videos on the internet? What is their religious affiliation? Are they Shias or Qadiyanis? Are they gainfully employed or live off the dole? Were they regulars in neighborhood mosque? Etc. etc..
#42 Posted by Raw_Dust on January 31, 2007 10:59:57 am
Urstruly:
Naqshbandi has a point regarding following the sunah of Sahabah, the exlted companions of the Prophet, for the fact that it is Sunah of Usman that literally carved out Islam for Sunnis of today. Because it is the text of Quran that he published (along with Marwan) that is considered authentic. So for being sunni is in essence to acknowledge Usman`s version of Quran as the word of Allah. (Shias don`t recognize usman`s version as final so they are excluded).
Naqshbandi has a point regarding following the sunah of Sahabah, the exlted companions of the Prophet, for the fact that it is Sunah of Usman that literally carved out Islam for Sunnis of today. Because it is the text of Quran that he published (along with Marwan) that is considered authentic. So for being sunni is in essence to acknowledge Usman`s version of Quran as the word of Allah. (Shias don`t recognize usman`s version as final so they are excluded).
#43 Posted by Urstruly on January 31, 2007 11:28:46 am
Re: # 42
I do not think my opinion is any different in this regard, from Naqshbandi or what you have written.
Your information about different `versions` of Quran is incorrect. There is only one version of Quran, however, it is read differently. When the revelation of Qura`n was completed, Holy prophet (pbuh) himself edited the whole book. So the Qura`n that we see today is not in chronological order as it was revealed but it is arranged in the order as dictated by Holy Prophet (pbuh). That is the reason we see that the first surah (Chapter) was revealed in mecca during the earliest days of his prophethood, whereas immediately after that the 4 chapters were revealed during his Medinite life period which was 13 years later. Then again the 6th chapter was revealed in Mecca and so on and so forth. As a matter of fact the last few chapters are overwhelmingly from the Meccan period. Some of the verses even in some chapters were inserted from a different time period as Holy Prophet (pbuh) instructed e.g. last few verses of the Chapter titled The Women (4). As one reads the Qura`n the the reason for this editing becomes very clear.
Shias (I am not sure whether all of them or some) read the Qura`n in its chronological order as it was revealed. I do not consider it a bad practice, because if we read the Qura`n in chronological order the sequence is very traditional i.e. first it emphasizes on the beliefs and then introduces us to moral dimension; whereas if one reads Qura`n as it was edited by Holy Prophet (pbuh) it makes it a beautiful blend of moral dimension butteresed by a belief system. It is this blend that has moved humanity and established a new civilization on this earth.
Probably Allah wants us to preserve both version of His word - as they were revealed and as they were collated. That is what makes it so unique.
I do not think my opinion is any different in this regard, from Naqshbandi or what you have written.
Your information about different `versions` of Quran is incorrect. There is only one version of Quran, however, it is read differently. When the revelation of Qura`n was completed, Holy prophet (pbuh) himself edited the whole book. So the Qura`n that we see today is not in chronological order as it was revealed but it is arranged in the order as dictated by Holy Prophet (pbuh). That is the reason we see that the first surah (Chapter) was revealed in mecca during the earliest days of his prophethood, whereas immediately after that the 4 chapters were revealed during his Medinite life period which was 13 years later. Then again the 6th chapter was revealed in Mecca and so on and so forth. As a matter of fact the last few chapters are overwhelmingly from the Meccan period. Some of the verses even in some chapters were inserted from a different time period as Holy Prophet (pbuh) instructed e.g. last few verses of the Chapter titled The Women (4). As one reads the Qura`n the the reason for this editing becomes very clear.
Shias (I am not sure whether all of them or some) read the Qura`n in its chronological order as it was revealed. I do not consider it a bad practice, because if we read the Qura`n in chronological order the sequence is very traditional i.e. first it emphasizes on the beliefs and then introduces us to moral dimension; whereas if one reads Qura`n as it was edited by Holy Prophet (pbuh) it makes it a beautiful blend of moral dimension butteresed by a belief system. It is this blend that has moved humanity and established a new civilization on this earth.
Probably Allah wants us to preserve both version of His word - as they were revealed and as they were collated. That is what makes it so unique.
#44 Posted by Urstruly on January 31, 2007 11:39:27 am
Re: # 43
Even though Shias may prefer to read Qura`n in its Chronological order, the Qura`n itself is one and the same for everyone i.e. as it was edited by Holy Prophet (pbuh):
http://quran.al-shia.com/en/text/
Even though Shias may prefer to read Qura`n in its Chronological order, the Qura`n itself is one and the same for everyone i.e. as it was edited by Holy Prophet (pbuh):
http://quran.al-shia.com/en/text/
#45 Posted by Raw_Dust on January 31, 2007 11:58:21 am
Thanks Urstruly. I read somewhere (and i am not sure if it is true or not) that according to Shias belief original text of Quran contains 7000 verses and the only copy of that version is with Imam Mahdi.
Thanks for the link.
Thanks for the link.
#46 Posted by sattar2 on January 31, 2007 12:50:23 pm
Re #45 … actually it gets more interesting …
Apparently (some?) ulema of Naqsh believe in abrogation of Quranic verses.
This abrogation business is quite intricate and falls in 4 categories (more?): Sunnah of Prophet abrogating Quran (or vice versa, at times) … and ahadith abrogating Quran (or vice versa, at times).
What abrogates what is a mind-boggling business. It reminds me of video games, with each tank and aero plane out to destroy others before getting destroyed itself. It is like a “Survivor” battle of sorts …
… all of which is best suited for useless, unemployable ullema sitting on their over-sized butts, issuing fatwas left and right. Bring on the halwa, buddy …
Back to you, Naqsh …
#47 Posted by nasah on January 31, 2007 2:13:52 pm
How do you `convert` a Shia to a Sunni -- or a Sunni to a Shia..? What is the `procedure`.....?
#48 Posted by Naqshbandi on January 31, 2007 2:20:52 pm
urstruly:
Proofs from Quran and Sunnah for calling on the pious for help using the phrase ``Ya So-and-So``
this is a discussion between brothers. so followers of mirza lanati please shoo shoo.
Proofs from Quran and Sunnah for calling on the pious for help using the phrase ``Ya So-and-So``
this is a discussion between brothers. so followers of mirza lanati please shoo shoo.
#49 Posted by Naqshbandi on January 31, 2007 2:29:29 pm
urstruly what concerns me about what you wrote is not that you don`t do istigatha yourself--it is your loss--but that you consider those who do so as mushriks. this would make most of the ummah mushriks. astaghfirullah. the point about mentioning sayyidina abu bakr`s saying `ya muhammada` is that no one understood islam better than him, so if it was wrong or against the teachings of islam to call on the prophet then he would NEVER do it.
only wahabis of various types and modernists like sir syed ahmed khan consider it shirk. and coming back to the pure imam, imam e hussain alayhisalam, he who died for this ummah and who will do shifa for us on qiyamat, i HATE people like maudoodi, all of his followers incl. israar ahmed, deobandis and ahl e hadith who wrote the disgusting book ``rasheed bin rasheed`` where in they insulted the ahle bayt and tried to show that yazid khabis lanati kafir jahannami -kuttah was correct and imam paak was wrong. astaghfirullah. all the deobandi elders and maudoodi himself put their signatures to that sick book.
only wahabis of various types and modernists like sir syed ahmed khan consider it shirk. and coming back to the pure imam, imam e hussain alayhisalam, he who died for this ummah and who will do shifa for us on qiyamat, i HATE people like maudoodi, all of his followers incl. israar ahmed, deobandis and ahl e hadith who wrote the disgusting book ``rasheed bin rasheed`` where in they insulted the ahle bayt and tried to show that yazid khabis lanati kafir jahannami -kuttah was correct and imam paak was wrong. astaghfirullah. all the deobandi elders and maudoodi himself put their signatures to that sick book.
#50 Posted by Naqshbandi on January 31, 2007 2:36:10 pm
Re: # 33
well said urstruly. in qaadiyaanio ka islaam se taaluq hii nahin so ignore them.
well said urstruly. in qaadiyaanio ka islaam se taaluq hii nahin so ignore them.
#51 Posted by Naqshbandi on January 31, 2007 2:38:03 pm
Re: # 41
i am not in england now. i don`t follow this story. i would be willing to bet they are wahabis.
i hope they get life imprisonment if guilty.
i am not in england now. i don`t follow this story. i would be willing to bet they are wahabis.
i hope they get life imprisonment if guilty.
#52 Posted by sattar2 on January 31, 2007 2:38:33 pm
… and while I am at it …
Urstruly MiaN,
… your ullema are no better either and pull the same tricks as Naqsh’s. They just package their mess differently and call it ijtehad (… or is it ijmah … or irtidad …??? … I dunno …).
Naqsh, it’s all in the name of fun for an innocent bystander like me. But don’t let me interrupt … please continue spitting on Urstruly …
… no wonder ummah is going to the dogs …
#53 Posted by Naqshbandi on January 31, 2007 2:41:01 pm
sattar since you are NOT part of the ummah why do u care?
#54 Posted by Naqshbandi on January 31, 2007 2:44:39 pm
yazid is a khabis lanati and there is ijma on his being faasiq faajir. [evil and wrongdoer]. there is ikhtilaaf on whether he is a kaafir or not amongst sunnis. i belong to those who consider him kafir. BUT there is NO ikhtilaf amongst muslims on the kufr of mirza qadiani.
#55 Posted by Raw_Dust on January 31, 2007 2:57:13 pm
There is a particular interesting interpretation i heard long time back about Yazid being Razi Allah. The argument is that Yazid sent first army to conquer constantinople and there is a hadith that promises Heaven to the muslims who would fight to bring contantinople under Islam, therefore, Hazrat Yazid Razi Allah Taala Anhu.
nasah:
to become shia, you have to acquaint yourself with Shia version of history (like about killing Muhsin bin Ali) and consider sunnism as perverted islam brought about by munafiqs/hypocrites like Umer, Abu Bakr and Usman. you will have to learn saying may God curse Umer on auto like you rage against bush and blair in your signature interacts. from shia to sunni route. you ofcourse have to consider all of this as doctored by shias.
nasah:
to become shia, you have to acquaint yourself with Shia version of history (like about killing Muhsin bin Ali) and consider sunnism as perverted islam brought about by munafiqs/hypocrites like Umer, Abu Bakr and Usman. you will have to learn saying may God curse Umer on auto like you rage against bush and blair in your signature interacts. from shia to sunni route. you ofcourse have to consider all of this as doctored by shias.
#56 Posted by sattar2 on January 31, 2007 3:01:32 pm
#53,
Nothing much ... just enjoying the pissing contest ...
So tell us once again what you think of Maudoodi ... (there is this word you used ... which sounds very much like Maudoodi ... only ``u`` was replaced with ``r`` ...
... and Urstruly is still upset with you, you know ...)
#57 Posted by Urstruly on January 31, 2007 3:02:32 pm
Naqshbandi
Do you even bother to check the references before you post them? The Quranic refernces to support the POV that it is OK to invoke dead people for help are absolutely irrelevant.
The first refernces is from the Chapter 28 : The Stories (Al-Qasas) that describes the story of Moses when he was a young man:
The Stories 28:15
And he (Moses) entered the city at a time when its people were not watching: and he (Moses) found there two men fighting,- one of his own religion, and the other, of his foes. Now the man of his own religion appealed to him against his foe, and Moses struck him with his fist and made an end of him. He said: ``This is a work of Evil (Satan): for he is an enemy that manifestly misleads!``
So here a living person is calling for help to another living person. I fail to see how it could be extrapolated to include invoking dead people for help.
The second reference is from Chapter 18: The Cave (Al-Kahaf), which describes the story of the king and prophet named Dhul-Qarnain (pbuh), who visited upon a nation in a far away land and following is the dialogue that happened between those people and Dhul-Qarnain
The Cave : 18:94
They (the people of that far away land) said: ``O Zul-qarnain! the Gog and Magog (People) do great mischief on earth: shall we then render thee tribute in order that thou mightest erect a barrier between us and them?
18:95
He (Dhul-Qarnain) said: ``(The power) in which my Lord has established me is better (than tribute): Help me therefore with strength (and labour): I will erect a strong barrier between you and them:
It is quite obvious from the text that Dhul-Qarnain is directly asking those people to help him build a protective wall. He is not invoking any dead people to help him errect the wall.
I have also scanned through the text of many hadith in the refernce but couldn`t find anything that supports your point of view.
Do you even bother to check the references before you post them? The Quranic refernces to support the POV that it is OK to invoke dead people for help are absolutely irrelevant.
The first refernces is from the Chapter 28 : The Stories (Al-Qasas) that describes the story of Moses when he was a young man:
The Stories 28:15
And he (Moses) entered the city at a time when its people were not watching: and he (Moses) found there two men fighting,- one of his own religion, and the other, of his foes. Now the man of his own religion appealed to him against his foe, and Moses struck him with his fist and made an end of him. He said: ``This is a work of Evil (Satan): for he is an enemy that manifestly misleads!``
So here a living person is calling for help to another living person. I fail to see how it could be extrapolated to include invoking dead people for help.
The second reference is from Chapter 18: The Cave (Al-Kahaf), which describes the story of the king and prophet named Dhul-Qarnain (pbuh), who visited upon a nation in a far away land and following is the dialogue that happened between those people and Dhul-Qarnain
The Cave : 18:94
They (the people of that far away land) said: ``O Zul-qarnain! the Gog and Magog (People) do great mischief on earth: shall we then render thee tribute in order that thou mightest erect a barrier between us and them?
18:95
He (Dhul-Qarnain) said: ``(The power) in which my Lord has established me is better (than tribute): Help me therefore with strength (and labour): I will erect a strong barrier between you and them:
It is quite obvious from the text that Dhul-Qarnain is directly asking those people to help him build a protective wall. He is not invoking any dead people to help him errect the wall.
I have also scanned through the text of many hadith in the refernce but couldn`t find anything that supports your point of view.
#58 Posted by sattar2 on January 31, 2007 3:39:34 pm
Urstruly (#57),
… I totally agree … you simply can’t trust these Ahle-Sunnah Ala Hazrat Imam Malik Wallahu Barelvi Sufian-e-karam W`ahle-ba`it traditional Hanafi bastards …
… march on mard-e-momin … we`re all pulling for you …
#59 Posted by Naqshbandi on January 31, 2007 4:08:15 pm
you cannot `scan` these references and thus dismiss them. u haven`t even answered my point that IF saying Ya Muhammad was shirk why did Hazrat Abu Bakr say it in Yamamah after the Prophet had honoured the Next World with his Presence? (alayhisalatuwasalam)? Why did Imam Zayn al Abidin alayhisalam (real name Ali bin Hussain ibn Ali ibn Abi Talib alayhimus-salam), the son of Imam Hussain and the 4th Imam, say the following:
Ya Rahmatulil alameen
Adrikni Zayn al Abidin!
In namaz why do you read al-tahiyyatu lillahi wa salawatu wa tayyibaat. assalamu alayka AYYUHA NABIYU wa rahmatullahi wa barakatahu....
In Arabic saying Ayyuha Nabiyu = Ya Nabi. ?
Ya Rahmatulil alameen
Adrikni Zayn al Abidin!
In namaz why do you read al-tahiyyatu lillahi wa salawatu wa tayyibaat. assalamu alayka AYYUHA NABIYU wa rahmatullahi wa barakatahu....
In Arabic saying Ayyuha Nabiyu = Ya Nabi. ?
#60 Posted by Naqshbandi on January 31, 2007 4:11:52 pm
for those who don`t know: assalamu alayka AYYUHA NABIYU wa rahmatullahi wa barakatahu.... means Peace be upon YOU, O` PROPHET and the mercy of Allah and his blessings...
#61 Posted by sattar2 on January 31, 2007 4:31:57 pm
#60 ... thanks for sharing...
Now get a life, you moron ...
#62 Posted by abu_safwaan on January 31, 2007 5:15:59 pm
Re: # 61
O saattariyyaaa, ...abbayy qadiyanii kii nasal tujh koo dunya ka orr koii kaam nahii hayy?? Jabb takk jottayy naa preinn baaz nahii aatayy tumm logg. Orr jabb partayy heinn to rein reinn kartayy hoo.
O saattariyyaaa, ...abbayy qadiyanii kii nasal tujh koo dunya ka orr koii kaam nahii hayy?? Jabb takk jottayy naa preinn baaz nahii aatayy tumm logg. Orr jabb partayy heinn to rein reinn kartayy hoo.
#63 Posted by sattar2 on January 31, 2007 5:57:46 pm
re #62:
... aren`t you supposed to be blowing people up somewhere ...
Apparently it`s the new kind of jihad …
Bad Muslim.
No banana.
#64 Posted by abu_safwaan on January 31, 2007 6:14:29 pm
Re: # 63
And aren`t u suppose to be licking the boots of ur british masters? Oh wait you ARE doing that, Ma BAD!
And aren`t u suppose to be licking the boots of ur british masters? Oh wait you ARE doing that, Ma BAD!
#65 Posted by sattar2 on January 31, 2007 6:21:39 pm
... you still seem upset about losing khilafaat ...
It`s time to move on, buddy ...
+++
Look, Urstruly, Naqsh, myself ... we all have moved to farangi land. What`s does that tell you ... ?
#66 Posted by abu_safwaan on January 31, 2007 6:42:45 pm
Re: # 65
Moving to farangiland is one thing, but licking their bung-hole is quite another.
Moving to farangiland is one thing, but licking their bung-hole is quite another.
#67 Posted by sattar2 on January 31, 2007 6:51:05 pm
... not my thing, but apparently it turns you on ...
#68 Posted by abu_safwaan on January 31, 2007 7:13:48 pm
Re: # 67
Yes and i am also infatuated with Mirza Ghulam Ahmed qadiyani as well. No wait, its all you ma Qadiyani dawg!
Yes and i am also infatuated with Mirza Ghulam Ahmed qadiyani as well. No wait, its all you ma Qadiyani dawg!
#69 Posted by Urstruly on January 31, 2007 8:53:09 pm
Naqshbandi
Following is the transliteration of the part of Salat usually referred to as attahayato lillahe...
``All greetings, blessings and good acts are from You, my Lord.
Greetings to you, O Prophet, and the mercy and blessings of Allah.
Peace be unto us, and unto the righteous servants of Allah.
I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah.
And I bear witness that Muhammad is His servant and messenger.
As it is evident from the text, the words O prophet is a figure of speech or an informal refernce; what it is not is an invokation.
As far as Hazrat Abu Bakr`s uttering the phrase ``Ya Mohammad`` during the battle of Yamama is concerned, we need more refernce to clarify the point. The tradition does not elaborate on the circumstances. It could very well be a figure of speech as explained above. But since it contradicts Qura`n and it is not suppoted by any other hadith, the conclusion that it grants us permission to invoke ghair Allah is preposterous. If we do cost benefit analysis of such invokations it is easy to see that they give an impression of shirk and there is more chance for it rather than the opposite as we see it in case of ordinary people who mindlessly invoke ghair Allah.
#70 Posted by Urstruly on January 31, 2007 8:59:44 pm
Re: # 68
The problem with arguing with idiots is that they drag you down to their level and beat you up at their turf. There is absolutely no need to bad mouth Mirza sahib or any other personality revered by any other religion, or the person arguing or cussing you, even if they do. It is explicitly forbidden by our Master (pbuh). It is counter productive and sets us astray from our mission, which is to convey the Message to as many people as we can.
The problem with arguing with idiots is that they drag you down to their level and beat you up at their turf. There is absolutely no need to bad mouth Mirza sahib or any other personality revered by any other religion, or the person arguing or cussing you, even if they do. It is explicitly forbidden by our Master (pbuh). It is counter productive and sets us astray from our mission, which is to convey the Message to as many people as we can.
#71 Posted by hamzaad on January 31, 2007 10:41:04 pm
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#72 Posted by ZahraJ on January 31, 2007 11:11:08 pm
Asif -
Thank you for a very informative and beautiful write-up. Out of curiosity, who was ``Hazrat Umm al Hârith`` ? I did not get that. Was Hazat Ali alive at the time of Hazrat Imam Hussein`s death?
Zahra
Thank you for a very informative and beautiful write-up. Out of curiosity, who was ``Hazrat Umm al Hârith`` ? I did not get that. Was Hazat Ali alive at the time of Hazrat Imam Hussein`s death?
Zahra
#73 Posted by MantoLives on January 31, 2007 11:33:59 pm
Dear Raw,
While I respect your free-thinking and free association even if I disagree with it ... please note that the author of this beautiful article is a Sunni.
While I respect your free-thinking and free association even if I disagree with it ... please note that the author of this beautiful article is a Sunni.
#74 Posted by zeemax on February 1, 2007 3:00:53 am
#72 by ZahraJ
According to the Hadees he foretold the event.
But to be honest, I think we should not attribute miracles to Muhammad, because he said so many times that he was not capable of miracles like say Moosa, but his only miracle was the Quran.
According to the Hadees he foretold the event.
But to be honest, I think we should not attribute miracles to Muhammad, because he said so many times that he was not capable of miracles like say Moosa, but his only miracle was the Quran.
#75 Posted by Urstruly on February 1, 2007 8:10:21 am
Naqshbandi
I went through the referred ahadith that you claim you your POV, thoroughly, but still could not find how they can be construed to invoke dead people. However I found this note to be of particular interest:
It is not said that all that is meant by the ``servants of Allah`` in the hadiths cited above are only angels, or Muslims among the jinn, or men of the realm of the invisible: for all of these are living. Hence, the hadith would not give evidence for asking aid from the dead, but this is not the case. We mention this because there is nothing explicit in the hadith whereby what is meant by ``servants of Allah`` are the categories we mentioned above and nothing else. Yet even if we were to concede this, the hadith would still be a proof against the Wahhabis from another standpoint, and that is the calling on someone invisible. The Wahhabis no more allow it than the calling on the dead
And interestingly enough this note was written right after quoting this hadith:
``Allah has angels on the earth - other than the [two] record-keepers - who keep a record [even] of the leaves that fall on the ground. Therefore, if one of you is crippled in a deserted land where no-one is in sight, let him cry out: a`înû `ibâd Allâh rahimakum Allâh, `Help, O servants of Allah, may Allah have mercy on you!` Verily he shall be helped, if God wills.`` Ibn Hajar said its chain is fair (isnaduhu hasan) in ``al-amali``.
Talk about the handicap in reading comprehension.
All of the other ahadith only elaborate on summoning help from real live people and not the daed ones or supernormal.
I went through the referred ahadith that you claim you your POV, thoroughly, but still could not find how they can be construed to invoke dead people. However I found this note to be of particular interest:
It is not said that all that is meant by the ``servants of Allah`` in the hadiths cited above are only angels, or Muslims among the jinn, or men of the realm of the invisible: for all of these are living. Hence, the hadith would not give evidence for asking aid from the dead, but this is not the case. We mention this because there is nothing explicit in the hadith whereby what is meant by ``servants of Allah`` are the categories we mentioned above and nothing else. Yet even if we were to concede this, the hadith would still be a proof against the Wahhabis from another standpoint, and that is the calling on someone invisible. The Wahhabis no more allow it than the calling on the dead
And interestingly enough this note was written right after quoting this hadith:
``Allah has angels on the earth - other than the [two] record-keepers - who keep a record [even] of the leaves that fall on the ground. Therefore, if one of you is crippled in a deserted land where no-one is in sight, let him cry out: a`înû `ibâd Allâh rahimakum Allâh, `Help, O servants of Allah, may Allah have mercy on you!` Verily he shall be helped, if God wills.`` Ibn Hajar said its chain is fair (isnaduhu hasan) in ``al-amali``.
Talk about the handicap in reading comprehension.
All of the other ahadith only elaborate on summoning help from real live people and not the daed ones or supernormal.
#76 Posted by sattar2 on February 1, 2007 11:35:43 am
re #68,
With a name like ‘abu_safwaan’ it is difficult to take you seriously.
Thanks for sharing your views though … (esp. starting with a ‘yes’ to my earlier comment …)
#77 Posted by sattar2 on February 1, 2007 12:00:12 pm
Urstruly (re #33),
Apparently this is your `respectful` mode of discussion …
“…These madarchods have to be eliminated …” (#11)
(ahem, ahem)
But I insist, if said properly, “fcuk” sounds very classy. It has a nice ring to it …
+++
And no one called anyone ``kanjriyon ke bachchay”, despite your vehement insistence. But if the shoe fits …
#78 Posted by Urstruly on February 1, 2007 12:55:37 pm
Re: # 77
I do not think I have used a foul language against someone`s belief system or revered personalities. The people I am referring to are ruthless killers who not only kill Muslims by the instigation and funding of kafirs but also create tumult in the Muslim land. If these two conditions are met, the Qura`n and Hadith authorizes state to go against such people with full force of state machinery and eliminate them through a judicial process.
I do not think I have used a foul language against someone`s belief system or revered personalities. The people I am referring to are ruthless killers who not only kill Muslims by the instigation and funding of kafirs but also create tumult in the Muslim land. If these two conditions are met, the Qura`n and Hadith authorizes state to go against such people with full force of state machinery and eliminate them through a judicial process.
#79 Posted by sattar2 on February 1, 2007 1:14:17 pm
Re #78
… and Quran or ahadith refer to them as … madar*** …?? I surely hope not ...
I was reciprocating about your own “respectful” mode of discussion ... hope the point is clear ...
Speaking of ruthless killers, here’s what Maudoodi wrote. What does that make him in your own language? Enjoy:
Foreign policy and jihad
“Human relations are so integrated that no state can have complete freedom of action under its principles unless the same principles are in force in a neighboring country. Therefore, both for its safety and the general reform, a “Muslim party” will not be content with the establishment of Islam in just one area alone. It should try to expand in all directions. On one hand it will spread its ideology, on the other it will invite people of all nations to accept its creed, for salvation lies only therein. If this Islamic state has power and resources it will fight and destroy non-Islamic governments and establish Islamic states in their place.”
This was the policy which was adopted by the Prophet (pbuh) and his Rightly Guided Caliphs. Arabia, where the Muslims Party was first formed, was the first to be subdued. After this, the Prophet (pbuh) sent invitations to all neighboring countries, but did not wait to see whether these invitations were accepted. As soon as he acquired power, he started the conflict with Roman Empire. Abu Bakr became the leader of the Party after the Prophet (pbuh) and attacked both Roman and Persian Empires and Umar finally won the war”
Haqiqat-e-Jihad (Reality of Jihad); Lahore: Taj Company Ltd., 1964; page 64, 65
+++
And you have a problem with Yazid?
It`s time to stop pointificating and to get serious ...
#80 Posted by Naqshbandi on February 1, 2007 2:06:26 pm
Re: # 69
My friend it is CLEARLY an invocation (i.e. nidaa, i.e. to call out to someone) as even the most elementary knowledge of english would show you.
problem is wahabis and their supporters--maudoodis lot come to mind along with israar ahmed--these are sophisticated vahaaabrey--have used every trick to try and prevent people saying YA MUHAMMAD! but have failed since Muslims have been saying it and calling on the Prophet from the earliest days of islam until now. the first munkar of Ya Muhammad was Ibn Taymiyyah who is 600 years or so afterwards from the Prophet. The next major denier was Mr. Ibn Abd al Wahaab Najdi Khabis Ma`loon and his followers for the past 200 years or so. Yet have Muslims stopped it? No!
So now you know Islam and Koran sharif and hadith better than Hazrat Siddiq e Akbar! Wah bhai wah!
My friend it is CLEARLY an invocation (i.e. nidaa, i.e. to call out to someone) as even the most elementary knowledge of english would show you.
problem is wahabis and their supporters--maudoodis lot come to mind along with israar ahmed--these are sophisticated vahaaabrey--have used every trick to try and prevent people saying YA MUHAMMAD! but have failed since Muslims have been saying it and calling on the Prophet from the earliest days of islam until now. the first munkar of Ya Muhammad was Ibn Taymiyyah who is 600 years or so afterwards from the Prophet. The next major denier was Mr. Ibn Abd al Wahaab Najdi Khabis Ma`loon and his followers for the past 200 years or so. Yet have Muslims stopped it? No!
So now you know Islam and Koran sharif and hadith better than Hazrat Siddiq e Akbar! Wah bhai wah!
#81 Posted by Naqshbandi on February 1, 2007 2:29:51 pm
ZahraJ:
Thanks. Lubaba bint al-Harith
Lubaba bint al-Harith (Arabic: لبابة بنت الحارث), also known as ``Umm Fadl``, is the mother of Abd-Allah ibn Abbas and Fadl ibn Abbas, wife of Abbas ibn Abd-al-Muttalib, and sister of Maymuna bint al-Harith, who was a wife of the Messenger and hence one of the Mothers of the Believers.
Hazrat Ali was martyred in about 30 AH (.i.e about 20 years after the Prophet`s honouring the Next World). Imam Husayn was martyred in 61 AH. i.e. about 31 years after the martyrdom of his father (upon them all be peace!)
Thanks. Lubaba bint al-Harith
Lubaba bint al-Harith (Arabic: لبابة بنت الحارث), also known as ``Umm Fadl``, is the mother of Abd-Allah ibn Abbas and Fadl ibn Abbas, wife of Abbas ibn Abd-al-Muttalib, and sister of Maymuna bint al-Harith, who was a wife of the Messenger and hence one of the Mothers of the Believers.
Hazrat Ali was martyred in about 30 AH (.i.e about 20 years after the Prophet`s honouring the Next World). Imam Husayn was martyred in 61 AH. i.e. about 31 years after the martyrdom of his father (upon them all be peace!)
#82 Posted by Urstruly on February 1, 2007 2:39:25 pm
Re: # 80
Curse all you want but it still does not support your POV, neither through Qura`n nor Hadith. Would there be a possibility that you could be wrong; I am open to the possibility that I might be wrong as long as you prove your case.
Look, it is the same thing Quadianis do i.e. when they cannot support their case through an argument they start cursing and making fun of their counter-interlocutors` belief system and ullema. Why fall into same abyss.
Saving ourselves from a possibility of shirk should be of greater priority than how we should manifest our love for dead people and Holy Prophet (pbuh). As a matter of fact saving ourselves from shirk IS THE manifestation of our love for our Holy Prophet (pbuh) and his companions who sacrificed so much so that we get a chance to know our One True Creator and save ourselves from the hellfire.
#83 Posted by sattar2 on February 1, 2007 2:46:21 pm
Re #81
Oops,
… I always thought Lubaba al-Harith was also known as “Bint-e-Unzul” and was the mother of Abbas bin Malilk al Quddus and Yahya bin Malik al Quddus (not to be confused with Yahya Bin Malik al Rafsanjani-al Maliki Qudsi) … and was sister-in-law of Mutahira bint al-Qudsi ibne Jabbar, who in turn was married to her sister, Milbaba al-Harith …
… thanks for clarifying naqsh … we can all sleep better now ...
+++
Back to you Urstruly ... naqsh is now cursing your ullema. How can you put up with such badmaashi?
#84 Posted by Urstruly on February 1, 2007 2:47:06 pm
Re: # 80
Take this for example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLvHP0m5vIE
Now please explain to me that the poet is invoking an abstract notion of ``Watan`` or just addressing it as a third person. This is just a plain figure of speech. Some times we utter phrases like ``O Urstruly abb teri shaamat aai``.
I will try to find the exact grammatical terminology that defines addressing someone or something as such and will let you know.
Take this for example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLvHP0m5vIE
Now please explain to me that the poet is invoking an abstract notion of ``Watan`` or just addressing it as a third person. This is just a plain figure of speech. Some times we utter phrases like ``O Urstruly abb teri shaamat aai``.
I will try to find the exact grammatical terminology that defines addressing someone or something as such and will let you know.
#85 Posted by abu_safwaan on February 1, 2007 2:49:28 pm
Re: # 80
Did “Hazrat Siddiq e Akbar” celebrated prophet’s birthday as a religious ritual year as well? What did “Hazrat Siddiq e Akbar” say about soyam, daswaan, chehlum , barsiyan, gayarhwiyaan, urs, asking “dead data” and “dead khwaja” to fulfill one’s desires, did he ever do that? And what would be the stance of “Hazrat Siddiq e Akbar” on dancing to qawwalis all nite and then missing fajr? Maulana Taqi Usmani has said that if you kiss ur thumbs just out of sheer love and immense love of the Prophet (PBUH) overwhelms and you kiss ur thumbs then its OK. But if you do it mechanically thinking that just the action itself has some reward in then its clearly a Bidaa. You can’t just list incident of Yamama and make it a rule, if in fact the narration of tirmidhi is accurate what do you think the intention of Abu-Bakar (may Allah swt be pleased with him) was? Was he under the impression that Muhammad (PBUH) can actually hear him some how? Didn’t he make himself rather clear when Prophet (PBUH) passed away and Omer (RAW) took out his sword and said that whoever says that Muhammad(PBUH) is dead I will take his head off and He(PBUH) has just gone to meet Allah swt just like moses did, at which Abu-Bakar (RAW) stood up and said whomsoever worshiped Muhammad (PBUH) his religion died today and surily we worship Allah SWT and Allah is ever-lasting. It all comes down to intentions, if you think Muhammad (PBUH) can physically some how hear you and is able to fulfill desires on his own than you are obviously demented, besides like URSTRULY said when Allah SWT has said numerous times himself, if you need something, ask me. So we will take Abu-Bakar’s opinion (RAW) (if in fact he even said it) over Allah’s SWT now? With all due respect make sure that you have your Fajar salah in order before you venture to criticize the scholars of the stature of Imam Taymiyah (Rahim ullah allayh). There are numerous stupidities that can be illustrated here that are linked to Raza barelwi, so pick up some respect. These are “Fiqh” issues that our scholars have Ikhtilaaf on , and it’s the most basic principle of Islamic jurisprudence that when there are 2 differing opinions on matters of fiqh, you don’t criticize, you follow what you deem appropriate and give me the courtesy to follow mine.
P.S : Finality of Prophethood is not a fiqh issue it’s a matter of Aqeeda so qadiyanis please don’t get excited.
Did “Hazrat Siddiq e Akbar” celebrated prophet’s birthday as a religious ritual year as well? What did “Hazrat Siddiq e Akbar” say about soyam, daswaan, chehlum , barsiyan, gayarhwiyaan, urs, asking “dead data” and “dead khwaja” to fulfill one’s desires, did he ever do that? And what would be the stance of “Hazrat Siddiq e Akbar” on dancing to qawwalis all nite and then missing fajr? Maulana Taqi Usmani has said that if you kiss ur thumbs just out of sheer love and immense love of the Prophet (PBUH) overwhelms and you kiss ur thumbs then its OK. But if you do it mechanically thinking that just the action itself has some reward in then its clearly a Bidaa. You can’t just list incident of Yamama and make it a rule, if in fact the narration of tirmidhi is accurate what do you think the intention of Abu-Bakar (may Allah swt be pleased with him) was? Was he under the impression that Muhammad (PBUH) can actually hear him some how? Didn’t he make himself rather clear when Prophet (PBUH) passed away and Omer (RAW) took out his sword and said that whoever says that Muhammad(PBUH) is dead I will take his head off and He(PBUH) has just gone to meet Allah swt just like moses did, at which Abu-Bakar (RAW) stood up and said whomsoever worshiped Muhammad (PBUH) his religion died today and surily we worship Allah SWT and Allah is ever-lasting. It all comes down to intentions, if you think Muhammad (PBUH) can physically some how hear you and is able to fulfill desires on his own than you are obviously demented, besides like URSTRULY said when Allah SWT has said numerous times himself, if you need something, ask me. So we will take Abu-Bakar’s opinion (RAW) (if in fact he even said it) over Allah’s SWT now? With all due respect make sure that you have your Fajar salah in order before you venture to criticize the scholars of the stature of Imam Taymiyah (Rahim ullah allayh). There are numerous stupidities that can be illustrated here that are linked to Raza barelwi, so pick up some respect. These are “Fiqh” issues that our scholars have Ikhtilaaf on , and it’s the most basic principle of Islamic jurisprudence that when there are 2 differing opinions on matters of fiqh, you don’t criticize, you follow what you deem appropriate and give me the courtesy to follow mine.
P.S : Finality of Prophethood is not a fiqh issue it’s a matter of Aqeeda so qadiyanis please don’t get excited.
#86 Posted by Naqshbandi on February 1, 2007 3:18:37 pm
I heard a beautiful speech by a great Sunni alim wherein he said, ``Imam Hussain died for the sake of the shafa`at of his Grandfather`s Ummah!`` -- subhan Allah. We will all get shafa`ah for the sacrifice made by the Imam.
#87 Posted by Naqshbandi on February 1, 2007 3:44:30 pm
Shuhada e Karbala by Allama Pir Sayyid Muhammad Irfan Shah Mashadi Moosavi Naqshbandi -- great scholar and descendent of the Prophet via Imam Musa Kazim.
#88 Posted by sattar2 on February 1, 2007 3:46:01 pm
Naqsh,
Don’t give up … these badmamah wahabis are ganging up on you. I have always doubted their taqwaa. How dare they denounce centuries of tradition and what countless divine sufis have died teaching us in order to purify our souls ... ??? Wah bhai, wah.
… start by reminding us of what you think of Maudoodi. Look, abu_safwaan has already denounced his teachings … and should easily convert to sufi tarriqah. Urstruly on the other hand is a hopeless case … he does not even believe in Issa in the sky … can you believe this …???
Ya Ali, Ya Hussain
Save the ummah, O’ fathers of faith
You have all the power …
#89 Posted by ZahraJ on February 1, 2007 4:37:33 pm
Since all the ulemae` karaa`m of Chowk are present on this board, I would like to present a question.
As a child (I am a grown-up now), I have always read about Muslim sufis and sages being well respected by even some non-Muslims. I have made similar observations as an adult. But when it comes to (some) Muslim believers, I am not sure if they extend the same sentiment towards the non-Muslim sages and monks and other good people. Why is that? Do we consider that a shirk? Or it`s not ok to show appreciation towards a non-Muslim?
Despite being a Muslim, I do stop by at a church or a mausoleum or a monastery or other religious places for a prayer or out of curiosity or simply out of respect. I remembered spending a few hours in a basilica in Montréal where my Canadian Muslim friend chose to sit outside. For her, it was as if someone will forcibly convert her into Christianity. Later down the road, she has become more accepting but there is a reticence. This is just one example.
I am curious to get the male ulemas take on it. I apologize for diverting the subject but I guess an innocent query that stimulates the brain and soul is much better than the constant tinctures male ulema are bestowing upon each other (~_~)
I will appreciate candid views.
Thanks.
As a child (I am a grown-up now), I have always read about Muslim sufis and sages being well respected by even some non-Muslims. I have made similar observations as an adult. But when it comes to (some) Muslim believers, I am not sure if they extend the same sentiment towards the non-Muslim sages and monks and other good people. Why is that? Do we consider that a shirk? Or it`s not ok to show appreciation towards a non-Muslim?
Despite being a Muslim, I do stop by at a church or a mausoleum or a monastery or other religious places for a prayer or out of curiosity or simply out of respect. I remembered spending a few hours in a basilica in Montréal where my Canadian Muslim friend chose to sit outside. For her, it was as if someone will forcibly convert her into Christianity. Later down the road, she has become more accepting but there is a reticence. This is just one example.
I am curious to get the male ulemas take on it. I apologize for diverting the subject but I guess an innocent query that stimulates the brain and soul is much better than the constant tinctures male ulema are bestowing upon each other (~_~)
I will appreciate candid views.
Thanks.
#91 Posted by sattar2 on February 1, 2007 6:25:54 pm
#85,
“Finality” is only a small portion of ummah’s comedy. We should start with “Issa in the sky” and work our way to more serious matters…
… look, there’s all this other stuff like, I don’t know, Jesus reviving the dead, Solomon talking to animals, Moses parting the ocean, and the Prophet flying to heavens at night to meet god. Lumping it all into aqeedah is one way to validate it … I agree … labaik …
re zahra … go away woman … men are discussing serious matters here …
… and besides, what do you mean appreciate non-Muslims … ? They are kaffirs going to hell … what respect?? Not only that, but we must also blow up their woman and children … serves them bastards right …
#92 Posted by ZahraJ on February 1, 2007 6:39:49 pm
Re: # 91
Sattar - Please do NOT say anything condescending about any prophet. You don`t make any point. You end up stirring unnecessary emotional reaction from otherwise rational beings. That`s a little unwise approach. Do I make myself clear?
Sattar - Please do NOT say anything condescending about any prophet. You don`t make any point. You end up stirring unnecessary emotional reaction from otherwise rational beings. That`s a little unwise approach. Do I make myself clear?
#93 Posted by Urstruly on February 1, 2007 8:52:04 pm
ZahraJ
Sometimes ago I read a fatwa by a scholar on the issue. According to him, it is quite OK to visit a place of worship of another religion given the three conditions are met:
1. The visitor (Muslim) must be sound in his knowledge of faith and fiqah (religious law). It is not that every Tom, Dick, and Ghafoora can do that whenever they like.
2. The intent of the visit should be for non-religious reasons e.g. promoting inter-faith harmony. You cannot just go there and offer dou rakaat namaz nafil or take part in their religious rites.
3. It is stictly forbidden to be in a place where shirk or polytheism is being practiced. For eaxmple, Christians, excluding some orthodox ones, for all intent and purpose worship three gods. Allah has attributed shirk and polytheism as the highest sin that can never be forgiven. The punishment is eternal hellfire. In my personal opinion, I think Jews, Zorthostorians, and orthodox Christians, who still consider Jesus (pbuh) as the Prophet of God, no more no less, are ok to visit.
#94 Posted by nasah on February 2, 2007 8:00:44 am
``Despite being a Muslim, I do stop by at a church or a mausoleum or a monastery or other religious places for a prayer or out of curiosity or simply out of respect. I remembered spending a few hours in a basilica in Montréal where my Canadian Muslim friend chose to sit outside. For her, it was as if someone will forcibly convert her into Christianity`` (Zahra J)
Zahra J -- this is one of the most decent questions that have been asked on this garbagized forum -- I am no Maulana but I will say this -- you did it and you do it because you are a well educated well read rational being -- with a broad perspective -- very secure in your beliefs -- very confident of your Muslimhood -- eager to know, study learn and admire others -- your friend is a supertititious insecure nervous nellie -- who wants to remain ignorant of others -- a calamitiy common to the our community -- that insists we remain a Muslim frog in our `beautiful` deep Muslim well.
Any Muslim who goes to Paris and does not visit the imposing Cathedral of Notredame is a deprived Muslim -- of course it is no Taj Mahal -- no seventh wonders of the world -- but it is the epic of Catholic architecture -- one of the most exquisitely carved monument of Christian gothic art -- and to sit on one of the benches and look at those colorful glass murals is one of the most peaceful feelings one gets in that cit
Zahra J -- this is one of the most decent questions that have been asked on this garbagized forum -- I am no Maulana but I will say this -- you did it and you do it because you are a well educated well read rational being -- with a broad perspective -- very secure in your beliefs -- very confident of your Muslimhood -- eager to know, study learn and admire others -- your friend is a supertititious insecure nervous nellie -- who wants to remain ignorant of others -- a calamitiy common to the our community -- that insists we remain a Muslim frog in our `beautiful` deep Muslim well.
Any Muslim who goes to Paris and does not visit the imposing Cathedral of Notredame is a deprived Muslim -- of course it is no Taj Mahal -- no seventh wonders of the world -- but it is the epic of Catholic architecture -- one of the most exquisitely carved monument of Christian gothic art -- and to sit on one of the benches and look at those colorful glass murals is one of the most peaceful feelings one gets in that cit