What Ails the BPO Industry in Pakistan?

I also agree with you Verticity. Quality of work really matters most. Why providing BPO services if a company doesn't have skilled agents/staff, how the company can give good services if that will be the thing. So, having good, knowledgeable agents/staff provides best quality of work.

I m agree with u Noman. alots of companies are providing BPO services in pakistan but the main thing should be quality.
Verticity
Taking Verticity To The Next Level....

re: Noman Faisal

There are several stars in the Pakistani BPO industry who have been experiencing double-digit growth in this industry. What sets these apart from rest of the crowd are things:

1. Low operating costs
2. Mature processes for adhering to service level agreements
3. Executive interface with their partners
4. Differentiation

As you have rightly pointed out, a lot of BPO entrepreneurs (and especially call center operators) enter the market with a 3-5 year horizon. Investing in ISO certifications, training and SLA-compliance procedures is not important to these entrepreneurs from a strategic point of view.

Successful BPO firms have selected business opportunities where projected growth is decent and entry barriers are significant. Medical transcriptions e.g. is an area where growth of business may be decent, but entry barriers are few. As a result, a lot of firms entered the market, driving profitability down.

Lack of business acumen, instead of technical skills is the primary reason why most BPO operators fail to take off.

#249 by nokia on February 5, 2007 2:12am PT


that`s how paki women get visas to come to the west..and bring their family members like peemax with them...

how do you think peemax, jihadi1, jihadi2 came to the west...

Re: # 252

It is easy to deal with 70,000 stray dogs. Do not ask me why they don`t get dealt with.

It is much harder to deal with stray human beings

#249 by nokia

Haha ... mirchi ... haha

Tell me, is tribal interior of Sindh or Multan the same as Bhangilauru aka IT BillionairesVille?

Or is it that Dogs are now as sacred as Gao Matas that 70,000 (+) rabid dogs roam Bhangilauru aka IT BillionairesVille alone? Dunno about BroomBhai and KalaKutta ...

Must be the above ... because the Commissioner says: `` ``But we have legal and social problems against removing them.`` :~)

Truth is stranger than fiction ... ;~)

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Coca-colonialism_and_Tata-colonialism/articleshow/msid-1559088,curpg-2.cms
Coca-colonialism and Tata-colonialism by Swaminathan S Anklesaria Aiyar

Millions of Indians cheered when Tata Steel won the auction for Corus, and became the world`s fifth bigge-st steel producer... With this acquisition, Tata Steel is now the 268th biggest company in the world, ranking just below Coca Cola. The Tata group as a whole is much bigger than Coke. ..Ranbaxy and Cipla have entered the race to acquire Merck`s generic drug business in Europe, and are building war chests of $5 billion or more. Reliance will be bidding for the plastics division of General Electric, which is up for sale.

No longer are Indian companies bidding for just small or medium foreign companies. They are bidding for global giants. This has been made possible by the willingness of global financiers to loan money to Indian minnows to take over global whales

India is by no means number one among developing countries in global takeovers. China is far ahead. Its electronics company TCL acquired the TV business of France`s Thomson. China`s computer company, Lenovo, acquired the PC business of IBM. However, Indian groups like Tata are catching up.

Leftists may still see that as a new way for IBM to colonise the world, through domination of IT services. But listen to the latest news. IBM sees its future survival as dependent on Indian expertise. Its Indian employees have skyrocketed in number from 4,000 in the early 2000s to 53,000 today.

A document circulated by IBM to its Indian employees projects a workforce of hold your breath 120,000 in India by 2008. IBM is becoming Indian rather than American in terms of employment.
...
Many other US companies are following the IBM route. Accenture, one of the biggest consulting and IT service providers in the world, has just announced that it will increase Indian staff from 27,000 to 35,000. This will make India its biggest employment hub, overtaking its US hub with 30,000 employees.
...
Several MNCs are opening R&D centres in India. The biggest of these is GE`s Jack Welch Centre in Bangalore. Will its discoveries be Indian or American R&D?

DEVELOPMENT-INDIA:
IT Hub Can Handle Gigabytes, Not Dog Bites
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
To cast a balanced view on this article:

One of the consequences of the rapid growth of Bangalore has been the growth of meat shops in areas that had traditionally been vegetarian. Many of these shops do not dispose of waste properly, leading to breeding of stray dogs.

Additionally, due to protests by animal rights activities, killing of vicious stray dogs had been stopped. Instead stray dogs were captured, sterilized and released.

I am sure that a solution will be found soon.
http://mangalorean.com/news.php?newstype=local&newsid=38339

``We are doing the best we can to contain the dog menace. During the last two weeks, we have rounded up about 3000 dogs of which 750 were put to sleep, deputy director of animal husbandry, BCC, Prakash Reddy, said....According to the founder president of SDFB (Stray Dog Free Bangalore), Dr C.V. Subramaniam mass elimination of stray dogs is the only answer, ...We have to follow the example of Philippines and Singapore and go for mass elimination of strays, he said...However, BCC officials maintain that eliminating street dogs is easier said than done.
...
We have to follow the provisions of the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act and the Animals Birth Control rules which prohibit killing of captured dogs unless these animals are certified sick or ferocious by veterinarians. In fact, dogs that are not sick have to be let back to the same area from where they had been picked up after they have been sterilised, Reddy explained.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

......rabid dogs on the roads.... haha ... as if gao matas were not enough ... haha

Haha .. No wonder ther`re so many rabid dogs around here ... haha ...

DEVELOPMENT-INDIA:
IT Hub Can Handle Gigabytes, Not Dog Bites
Keya Acharya

BANGALORE, Jan 17 (IPS) - When a pack of stray dogs tore to pieces the eight-year-old daughter of a construction worker, it showed up the social inequalities and other paradoxes of this global information technology (IT) hub.

Construction for as many as 14 traffic-easing underpasses promised by the municipality is languishing because of delays in firming up proposals, floating tenders, issuing work orders and actual execution. And only one of 11 major road projects, promised several years ago, has been completed.

Aside from the serious infrastructural woes that global IT names have been complaining about, authorities seem incapable of doing anything about packs of stray dogs, estimated to number around 71,000, marauding through the streets and inflicting at least 3,000 bites per month on a helpless public.

India already has the word`s highest number of dog-bites, 17.6 million annually. It also accounts for 80 percent of the world`s rabies cases according to the Association for Prevention and Control of Rabies in India (APCRI).

In Bangalore, 45 percent of dog-bite victims are slum children playing on streets in low-income areas which are a world away from the affluent or those who earn global salaries in the IT sector, says Dr. B. J. Mahendra, professor of community medicine at Bangalore`s Kempegowda Medical Institute and president of APCRI.

Professionals with a few years` experience command annual pay packets of 50,000 US dollars or more in Bangalore, making it a magnet for qualified workers and yet stay competitive for global IT majors that outsource work this way. The trend has even resulted in the coinage of the term ‘Bangalored` to describe the global shift in IT and IT-enabled services away from developed countries.

But, few notice the armies of labourers, construction workers, cleaners and helpers that make it possible for this IT hub to keep turning, by making do with dirt poor wages and putting up with living conditions unimaginable in the countries that get Bangalored.

According to APCRI the municipality`s estimate of 71,000 strays in the city is ‘grossly underestimated`. Either way city authorities are now facing a barrage of protests over the death of the girl who was attacked on a busy, public street while carrying her father`s lunch to him.

The issue has snowballed into a crisis for Bangalore`s municipal commissioner, K. Jairaj, who now faces charges in the Karnataka state high court for neglecting human life by allowing stray dogs free run of the city.

``It is shameful that the child`s death was compensated with a mere Rs 100,000 (2,252 dollars) by the authorities,`` says Vatsala Dhananjay of a civic group, Stray Dog Free Bangalore (SDFB). ``The least the municipality can do is fix a more realistic rate of compensation.``

The SDFB is now planning to petition the country`s National Human Rights Commission to intervene in helping remove the city`s stray dog menace.

And yet, the city`s municipality is prevented from doing more than to sterilise and release the dogs because of protests from animal-rights organisations, most of them run by wealthy and influential socialites who have managed to bring stray dogs under the ambit of the country`s Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act of 1960.

``I feel very strongly about dogs on the roads,`` commissioner Jairaj told IPS. ``But we have legal and social problems against removing them.``

So, while the salaries and lifestyles in the city`s IT industry surpass those in many developing countries, the father of the unfortunate girl, as a member of the city`s unorganised but vast workforce, has little hope of adequate compensation.

Apart from petitioning the NHRC, the ‘anti-stray` group also has plans to take the municipality to court for violation of the fundamental rights of its citzens. `` If the government won`t see to the rights of the poor, some of us need to take responsibility,`` says Diana Bharucha of the SDFB.

While the IT sector enjoys enormous clout, what matters most to it is greater attention by the government to research and development and creation of manpower needed to maintain a high growth curve. ``It`s mediocrity (of workers)and complacency that we need to address,`` says D.N. Prahlad of Surya Software Systems.

Global software giants like Wipro and Infosys have created vast modern air-conditioned campuses in which it is possible to maintain an international ambience for their carefully selected employees and complain only about the potholes on the roads that lead to the airport and the disconcerting view of slums and unfinished construction.

Many are satisfied that the government is constructing a 30 km-long dedicated expressway that will connect a spanking new airport to the city centre, bypassing the traffic jams and human misery.

``If the IT multi-national corporations (MNCs) were unhappy with Bangalore`s infrastructure, they would not be in the expansion mode,`` says J. Parthasarathy, director of the government-owned Software Technology Park, at Whitefield in Bangalore which houses over 1,800 companies with 400,000 professionals on its sprawling premises.

But the president of the federation of Karnataka`s chambers of commerce, R.C. Purohit, admits that the IT sector, which is responsible for a good deal of the city`s congestion and deteriorating conditions, needs to participate more actively in urban planning and the society it works in. ``The IT sector has to understand its public responsibilities.``

``Our physical infrastructure is bad, yes,`` says Chamaraj Reddy of the Builders` Association of India. ``But being killed and menaced by stray dogs on the roads is even worse.``

Hahaha... cough ... haha

delusion: pakis aren`t into IT..they`re into value added manufacturing...

reality:

Vision-2030 calls for steps to boost industrial exports

By Ihtasham ul Haque

ISLAMABAD, Feb 2: The manufacturing and industrial sector of Pakistan is suffering from various structural problems, resulting in slow growth rate of output and exports, low level of investment and high concentration of the manufacturing industries.

The working draft of the Vision-2030 finalised by a committee of the Planning Commission, has called for industrial diversification to compete with other developing countries for increasing exports, particularly through value-addition and quality control.

It said that technical inefficiencies, poor quality of products, low level of research and development (R&D) activities have resulted into slow growth of productivity, making the Pakistani products ``uncompetitive`` in the world market.

The traditional industries such as food and textile still account for an overwhelming share of the manufacturing output; food industries accounted for 13.8 per cent and industries for 24 per cent of the total manufacturing of value added products.

On the other hand, industries for machinery both electrical and non-electrical, and automobile accounted for just 4.4 per cent and 4.7 per cent of value added, respectively. Even though chemical industries accounted for around 15.2 per cent of manufacturing output, most of the chemical industries output is concentrated in low-tech and low value added industries.

#244 by zeemax on February 2, 2007 9:00pm PT


People who have a high sense of self esteem place it above rewards


Pakis have to win awards first to turn them down...Lets face it..brit-pakis like you are at the bottom of every scale in Britain with Indians being on top...look at poverty, income or education numbers...

So your sense of self-esteem only comes from subway bombers...

People who have a high sense of self esteem place it above rewards. Jean-Paul Sartre and Le Duc Tho refused the Nobel because of this. This is also why Marlon Brando refused the Oscar for Godfather and didn`t even show up to refuse it personally, but instead sent a red indian woman dressed in traditional costume.

This is the difference between being great and being a punk.

But people who`re used to living off handouts and conning the big daddy for a millenia are not expected to understand this.

Re: # 242

yes, pakis dont have any choice but blowing themselves up and indians have
no choice but accept the money. Ijust wish they blow themsleves up without
hurting anyone.

``I agree. If she had any self-respect, she should have refused the prize as not being worth the humiliation and insults publicly inflicted upon her. She would have made a point and become an icon in the fight against racism. Instead, she chose to pocket the $ million and say that everything was hunky dory.``

Heh heh, which is exactly what I would do..Indians believe in improving one life at a time, starting with our own. And yes, the world is not obviously racist when u have 50 million dollars..Gori blonds kiss your ass while checking you in at the Ritz Carlton

Re: # 239 Arjun2
``So 4 Indian Americans are among the 40 finalists in the Intel STS..Indians are 2% of the population and 10 % of the finalists...Pakis are <2% of the population and a large % of jihadis being tried in the US... ``

If i am a paki i would go kill myself! oh wait..thats what they been doing...

#229 Good for her she isn`t playing the victim card. If you are offended by what you see as racism then hold up your own placards of protest. Don`t expect her to act on your behalf.

So 4 Indian Americans are among the 40 finalists in the Intel STS..Indians are 2% of the population and 10 % of the finalists...Pakis are <2% of the population and a large % of jihadis being tried in the US...

nuff said...

#237 by soysauce on February 2, 2007 10:37am PT

Pakis would burn down KFC, blow themselves up in the subway.

and the end result: they`d still be pakis, have no honor and still be poor...

#230 Yeah and she should have burned down a few KFCs in the process. You`re so damned predictable.

I hope zeemax is not reflecting paki establishment thinking. A poor country waiting for the right opportunity and wanting to pick and choose is unrealistic and is like waiting for ocean tides to stop before getting into the water.
I don`t understand the delineating between service sector and manufacturing sector jobs. In terms of acquiring intellectual property, service sector is probably the best way to go in the short term. That said, innovation will thrive in any sector under the right conditions. The US has farmed out manufacturing and increasing service sector jobs but it remains unquestionably the most innovative nation in technology.
Manufacturing offers certain spill over advantages. If you have a factory producing a certain component, a simple retooling would get you into a slightly different market segment. Besides, there`s always a huge internal market that you can cater to. Service sector jobs tend to be less universal in this way.
The asian tigers showed that the existing model was not the only way to improve the national economy. The lesson if anything is that there isn`t a set way to move up. If the west innovated first and manufactured next, the asian tigers and especially Korea showed that you could do it backwards with equal felicity.
Poor countries should grab whatever opportunity is presented to them.

#230 by zeemax on February 1, 2007 10:36pm PT

Peemax...that was a photo of a dead jihadi...It was posted with the original caption...now you may chose to believe that was a dead Indian and Kashmir is soon going to banega Pakiland...no one can keep a paki away from his delusions...

jeemax, one thing the asian tigers (including malaysia) had going for them was educated (well, like highschool) women in work-force. most asian factories on assembly lines are like 80% women. they were always a prefered workforce because they were more reliable, less tardy or under the influence of alchohol and less prone to unionization. ergo, if you want massive industrializatoin, women (which form some 48% of population) be empowered to go get schooled and work, without honor bothering them. one reason tamilnad is a popular destination in india for assembly-line type factories (cell-phones, TV, cars and components) is availabilit of such labor.

Ref GT #221

[`Skill premium`?....my foot.

What about India? Is it similar?]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6289521.stm


Here is the US news from Bangalore
By Steve Schifferes
Economics reporter, BBC News, Bangalore

In a windowless office in central Bangalore, dozens of employees are arriving to work on the night shift.

They are journalists employed by the world`s biggest news agency, Reuters.

Their job is to cover US financial news.

And they are working overnight so that they can report company news live as it happens on the New York Stock Exchange - from India.

Cost savings

But why in the world is Reuters covering Wall Street from Bangalore?

In a word: salaries.

These Indian financial journalists can be employed by Reuters for a fraction of the cost of employing a journalist at their New York office.

Reuters Editor-in-Chief, David Schlesinger, says that the move meant that they could broaden their coverage of US companies without incurring crippling costs.

He was able to hire 100 new journalists in Bangalore without in any way reducing the size of his New York office.

``Now we can send our New York journalists out to do more interesting stories. This is good for our business and good for journalism,`` he told the BBC.

And some other wire services are now following Reuters` lead and beating a path to Bangalore, according to local journalists.

But Mr Schlesinger insists that this is not outsourcing.

``Bangalore is a Reuters bureau like any other in the world. And Reuters journalists there work to the standards as Reuters journalists anywhere.``

Internet journalism

Such a system has only recently become feasible - as a result of the internet.

Most US companies now put out their press releases on the internet, and they all use financial PR firms to release their profit figures just as the stock market opens.

So Reuters journalists in Bangalore can access the same basic information - in the same time frame - as their colleagues in New York.

And the reduced cost of telecommunications links means that the news written in Bangalore can be sent around the world as quickly as the news written in New York - of key importance for a wire service, which depends on speed for its competitive advantage.

Reuters already knew about the data transmission capability of India.

In 2002, it moved its IT database operations to Bangalore.

It now employs 1,500 people to make sure that its clients receive the millions of bits of financial data it transmits every day.

But, nevertheless, Reuters was taking a big gamble in trying to source its company news from India, as Abi Sekimitsu, the Reuters editor assigned to run the Bangalore office, explains.

``The Reuters brand is a strong one. There is no shortage of talented journalists here, but we need to train them up carefully to make sure they understand our values,`` she says.

But she stresses the journalists she employs are now eager to expand the range of stories they do, and have already moved from just doing headlines and summaries to writing more complex stories.

The Reuters journalists working in Bangalore do find some aspects of the job intimidating.

For Ankur Relia, covering the New York financial markets has taken some getting used to.

He writes up to 20 brief stories a day reporting briefly on US company results.

But he is happy to defer to the New York office if a more complicated story involving a major US company passes his way.

To maintain their exacting standards, Reuters has recently created a new post in the Bangalore office - training editor.

And they have hired a former Bloomberg employee and CNBC TV presenter, Kavita Chandran, on a two-year contract.

Kavita, an Indian national, had been working for Bloomberg in New York.

She says it has been hard to adjust to coming back to Bangalore - but it is a very exciting time.

``We have a bright, enthusiastic young staff, who are eager to learn about US markets.

``I encourage them to read the NY Times and Wall St Journal online every day.``

But she finds there are some cultural differences between work styles in the US and India that need tackling.

``Indian culture is much more laid-back and the work ethic is different. We need to install a sense of urgency, especially for breaking news, and ensure crisp and accurate copy.``

``My role is really to clear up the cultural misunderstandings,`` she says.

``Being Indian, but having worked for more than 10 years in New York, I can spot the difficulties in communication and language between the two offices.``

Turnover problems

However, the biggest problem that Reuters is facing in Bangalore is something they did not expect - turnover.

Despite paying double the going rate for journalists, almost half the staff has left in the past year.

``I am a Reuters lifer,`` Ms Sekimitsu told the BBC. ``When I joined Reuters in Hong Kong, I planned to make my career in the firm. But some of the young journalists I am employing seem to think that a year is a long time to work for one company.``

It`s not just competition from rivals that have caused the problem.

India`s economic boom - and the deregulation of television - has led to an explosion in financial journalism, with six financial news channels on cable TV.

And salaries of financial journalists on newspapers are rising as well.

With many financial journalists attracted to working in Mumbai, India`s financial capital, Reuters is finding it increasingly difficult to retain its staff.

Newspaper outsourcing

Reuters` Bangalore operation is only one example of a broader trend in outsourcing by media organisations.

Many American newspapers, facing severe cost pressures, are looking to outsource many of their key functions to India.

Recent moves have included:

* Columbus Dispatch: Ohio newspaper outsourced 90 jobs in advertising design to Affinity Express in Pune, India

* Dallas Morning News: IT computer support outsourced to India

* Knight Ridder Group: Considered outsourcing its copy editing to India in 2006, before being taken over by McClatchy

According to the World Association of Newspapers, the trend is gathering strength.

In a report published last year, the organisation said that ``whatever the risks and benefits, outsourcing is here to stay``.

``The newspaper industry has only taken tentative steps into outsourcing what was once considered core competencies such as editorial, advertising, and circulation. But the trend is gaining momentum,`` it added.

And the BBC too

And it is not just newspapers that are taking advantage of the cost savings of outsourcing to India.

The BBC recently announced that it would save £20m by outsourcing its payroll and expenses services to Xansa, based in Madras, India, although customer support would still be based in the UK.

Savings will go towards the BBC`s target of releasing £355m of savings to invest in programmes and services.

``The BBC is taking advantage of the significant savings of globalisation while maintaining the benefits of more local customer support,`` the corporation said.

Re: # 213

A Honda City (second to fully loaded model) costs about 8.5 lakh rupees on the road in India. There are some variations depending on the city it`s sold in.

#229 by nb

I agree. If she had any self-respect, she should have refused the prize as not being worth the humiliation and insults publicly inflicted upon her. She would have made a point and become an icon in the fight against racism. Instead, she chose to pocket the $ million and say that everything was hunky dory.

#220 by dhotilal_googlemal,

You paraded me naked because I couldn`t find the link to the forum where it was posted?

So you posted a wounded injun`s photo from some chatter`s forum and tried to pass it off as a Kashmiri without even the caption? Actually, you couldn`t `find` the forum because your bluff was called. I know what the forum would have said about that photo.

Re Abizaid/Abdullah Abdullah, you`ve been pestering me about it constantly. Ok so I accept your point that Abdullah was not fired at Pakistan`s behest. Then why was he fired? If you do not accept my reason for his firing immediately after Abizaid`s visit, then surely you would know the real reason.

C`mon. Out with it, or stop chattering about it.

Re: # 226
She can pretend it wasn`t, but the fact is that it was. I doubt she`s gone through all the footage as yet.

Jang/Manto,

A Honda City costs around Rs. 6-7 lakhs in India. A teacher with post graduate qualification (MA/MSc+ BEd) starts with a salary of around Rs. 15,000 p.m. in most schools in Delhi.

Regards

#226 Typical bania behavior. Where`s her honor? :)

This is why India produces Laxmi Mittals while the perpetual victim pakis produce Omar Saeed Sheikh and the subway bombers..


Shilpa refuses to play race activist

LONDON: Shilpa Shetty has commended the fight against racism by those who are victims of it but refused, yet again, in her first television interview since the Big Brother win, to describe herself as a martyr to British racism.

Shetty firmly said on Thursday that she was not prepared to serve as spokesperson for the rights of Indians and other coloured people in Britain and beyond.

She said she was prepared to accept the anger of Indians at home and here for refusing to describe herself as racially victimized.

And in an adroit piece of constituency-building, described by many as ``masterly politics and superb brand-building``, Shetty would only say to Sky News that Jade Goody, her alleged chief racial tormentor, was ``aggressive, obnoxious and mannerless``.

Shetty`s refusal to brand Goody and much of Britain as racist is seen to put her in a good position to reap the commercial benefits of her public magnanimity with the UK desperate to shower the actress with lucrative deals and offers in exchange for her endorsement of its tolerance.

From an imposing country pile, currently her green and leafy home in the south-east of England, Shetty spoke nearly 100 hours after she won Celebrity Big Brother and started on the path of becoming Britain`s most commercially -fanciable ``sweetheart``.

Shetty insisted, with what many here described as the overweening arrogance of ``India`s educated middle-class`` that Big Brother contestants such as Goody behaved as they did because of ``a lack of education``.

Almost exactly echoing the words of Big Brother`s embattled broadcaster Channel 4, she said racism was a very complex issue. She said her coven of female tormentors in the Big Brother house were driven by ``jealousy``. And with almost breathtaking arrogance, Shetty insisted Goody ``never thought before she spoke`` and pop star Jo O`Meara had ``personality issues``.

Shetty`s extraordinary television interview was conducted with the actress resplendent in a nude chiffon sari and a a bustier-choli. Observers said the actress appeared deeply conscious that her Big Brother win had turned her into a totemic symbol of Britain`s victory over racism.

On Tuesday, the UK`s largest-selling tabloid launching an unprecedented campaign to hail the actor`s triumph as a ``turning point`` in multi-cultural tolerance. Just days ago, The Sun , Britain`s best-selling, if big-mouthed tabloid, featured an extraordinary front-page splash consisting of 11 differently-coloured and distinctly-garbed children holding up placards that bore racially-offensive insults such as ``Paki``, ``towelhead``, ``chinky``, ``nigger``, ``chavscum``, ``half-breed`` and ``terrorist``.

The strapline for the front-page splash shrieked, alongside a flattering photo of Shetty: ``As Shilpa wins Big Brother for us all, 11 kids ask what do we have in common?``

Shetty`s Thursday television interview to Rupert Murdoch`s satellite broadcaster is seen to put the finishing touches to a public persona carefully fashioned by the actress to suggest ``class and compassion``.

Britain`s tabloid press has been hailing Shetty in the days since she won the reality TV show as the embodiment of poise, grace and dignity, quoting ``social commentators`` to say her victory ``proved we are a tolerant nation despite the vile scenes which caused outrage.``

Shetty has already received the unofficial commendation of Trevor Phillips, Chair of the Commission For Equality And Human Rights, who has urged Britain to ``congratulate Shilpa. It has taken a woman from a former colony, thousands of miles away to remind us of what we most value about being British.``

#223 by jang on February 1, 2007 12:38pm PT


No REIT..actual property in pune..lazy ghatis have hit the jackpot there..

Re: # 222 by arjun

In the US pension funds, which are heavily regulated (no direct trading in derivatives for e.g.), usually have a portfolio of other funds. The proportion directly invested in stocks and bonds is small, if any, for most (to my knowledge). Yes, you are right in the sense that large pension funds do have a sizeable clout in dictating the final portfolio. Of late though, self imposed `good practices` imply indirect control. I am not sure how indirect it is. However, portfolio manager decisions are much more independent than any that I see in Lat. Am.

#222 REIT

#221 by GT on February 1, 2007 11:52am PT


What about India? Is it similar?


The wall street type is always clubbish..even in the US..the big wall street firms trying to get you to invest in whatever with ads on TV have an unfair advantage..

India, in the days of Harshad Mehta, used to be a crazy place with stocks going up for no reason other than Harshadbhai`s men were asking about it..

That`s all in the past now..It`s run fairly professionally..I even know people in India who`re doing investment work for Wall Street firms..for investments in the US..

The BSE right now is overheated..I got out when it was much lower and moved the money to real estate...there`s a major correction coming...

Re: # 208 by jang:

Jai Bhavani,

Interesting that you mention this. I am advising a pension company on portfolio management. The company has operations all over the world and it is facing certain problems in domestic Latin American markets. I get to talk to some of their Latin American portfolio managers. It is simply amazing ..... These guys draw salaries and get bonuses almost equal to their US counterparts. Yet they can hardly spell `portfolio`. I am told that the `skill premium` in these countries is very high. I really do not understand what that means. However, I did find out that trading in these countries is very opaque (traders hardly reveal spreads say) and `clubish`. Forming a portfolio is solely done on the basis of some vague consensus in the `club` (which often includes traders and portfolio managers from the competition). And entry into the `club` is VERY restricted. No matter these guys draw high salaries! `Skill premium`?....my foot.

What about India? Is it similar?

#215 by zeemax on February 1, 2007 8:10am PT


You paraded me naked because I couldn`t find the link to the forum where it was posted?

Seriously...if this the same zeemax of the ``grim faced abizaid`` and ``amarnath/amaranth`` fame?

How Jinnah would have ensured that loads and loads of BPO work landed right there in the Land of the Pure - and kept coming in by truckloads.

His well-proven methodology is entitled

``MY WAY, OR THE HIGHWAY!``

manto i have no idea what it costs..i was guessing in paki rupees..i thought it costs 20 lacks in indian so prolly 30 in paki. clearly i did not know.

in any case, can you comment on cost of human resources query? even to become a value-added manufacturer, you need skilled workers in a competative global scenario and that cannot be raised. i hear that salaries in pakistan are much higher than in india, and if and when there is pressure from say Honda setting up a plant in pakistan, there will be further upward pressure. this problem is very much accute in india e.g. and well aknowledged to be a major stumbling block, and govt is frentically raising ITIs as well as IITs to band-aid.

#216 by devkant

And how much would be this?

``#213 by Mantolives on February 1, 2007 8:00am PT
Don`t tell me Honda City costs 30 lakhs in India.``

a honda city costs something in the range of 7 to 9 lakhs on road, depending where u take it, bombay being the most expensive.

civic should be in the range of 11 - 13 i think and accord in 15 to 18.

rgds,

devkant

I`ve never seen a bigger beyghairat than dhotilal_googlemal.

Imagine the gall after having been caught red handed trying to defraud on Shandana`s board and paraded naked on Chowk. And he still jumps up and down with a blackened face.

#213 by Mantolives on February 1, 2007 8:00am PT

manto..How`s your father`s Revo holding up?

jang mian,

Don`t tell me Honda City costs 30 lakhs in India. If so, then maybe the advantages of doing business in Pakistan must be much higher than earlier anticipated :).

#202 by Mantolives on February 1, 2007 6:15am PT



As for human resources... it is well known that skilled Pakistanis are as good as if not better than Indians..


Well known in pakiland perhaps...not in the real world...

I just read that there are 8 Indians in the Forbes list of top 100 Venture capitalists...

How come there are no paki billionaires?

Take intel for example where your brother in law is at the super duper position of manager!! 3 VPs there are are Indians...

Please show us where pakis figure in lists such as Forbes....and please...nothing out of the POIMPA lists...


p.s. Paki jihadis are well known..in that you`re the top country in the world...

Re: # 206

``The reality is that unless you get a grip on this and take an uncompromising, unrelenting stance against radical Islam, which actually has little to with normal Islam, your country will only limp along. It cannot succeed, period``

Completely agreed. Please visit one of my earlier posts addressed to you... I think it was in 120s I think.

#208 by jang

a scarcity of qualified human resources.

That`s exactly my point. You don`t add domestic skills in servicing knowledge based economies. You do it by `becoming` a knowledge based economy. And you can`t do it by service sector. It has to be manufacturing for moving up in the value-addition chain.

#204 by ranjit on February 1, 2007 6:55am PT


Major corporations have opened R&D centers that are churning out patents.


Pakis aren`t into lowly things like chip design..their plan is to sell uighurs and other pakis to the US as part of the war on terrorism...160million pakis should last them a while...

good morning jeemax..good to see you back from your sulking mood ;-)

one thing you folks can comment on re human resources. there are contradictory reports of availablility of high quality human resources in pakistan. from most accounts what i hear is anyone with any skills is actually very expensive in pakistan (i heard that ordinary school teachers buy 30 lakh ki gaddi within first year of employment, but that is just an anecdote). which actually indicates a scarcity of qualified human resources. this is also very true in india, but it is a larger pool with very deliberate effort from the govt in developing various educational centers over a long period of time. its not easy to raise recruit and train skilled workforce unlike an army. in competative global markets, its really hard to compete without skilled workers.

...contd... #205 by zeemax/#204 by ranjit

...our natural fit with the knowledge economy...

I`m sure you mean your perfect fit with the `market economy` in knowledge services. It is not the same as `knowledge` economy. Few countries have that, foremost of which is Norway.

Re:manto

[...As for human resources... it is well known that skilled Pakistanis are as good as if not better than Indians... despite what ever propaganda you might wanna do in favour of Eye Eye Tee and Eye Eye Em......]

Manto, all human beings have the potential to succeed. The issue is the socio-cultural conditions, or as we say the system, that enables a society to reach its potential. You still have way too many people focused on taking Pakistan back to the seventh century - just look at the suicide bombings in the past few days and the news of Pakistanis plotting a kidnapping and murder of a army official in US. It is this kind of stuff that turns off the world from doing business with Pakistan, not any propaganda from India. It is this kind of stuff that causes India to worry about attacks on its own soil.

The reality is that unless you get a grip on this and take an uncompromising, unrelenting stance against radical Islam, which actually has little to with normal Islam, your country will only limp along. It cannot succeed, period.

#204 by ranjit

I fully agree with your comments re ``our greatest assets are our intellect, our natural fit with the knowledge economy, an incredible hunger to succeed and the ability to work really hard.``

My only criticism of India`s path is the `focus` on outsourcing as the lead driver, and not who else is in there in the overall mix. I think agriculture is being ignored as well, as well as livestock breeding etc. Tech is not for all ... it is only for the middle classes.

Re:Zeemax#193

[..So anymore comments re #133? I.e. difference between `Outsourcing`, and `Offshoring`? ...]

Zee, India is going for both outsourcing and offshoring. Major corporations have opened R&D centers that are churning out patents. Companies are opening advanced manufacturing facilities for semiconductors and so forth. At the same time we will take the BPOs and call centers too. We Indians want it all. :-) We used to be the world`s ``sone ki chidiya`` in the past and we will be that again, god willing.

Basically the thing is that we Indians have realized that our greatest assets are our intellect, our natural fit with the knowledge economy, an incredible hunger to succeed and the ability to work really hard. The results speak for themselves and the world recognizes it. Ask any American about what they think about an Indian. They used to say poverty and snake charmers in the past. Now they unanimously say IT. This phenomenon is going to get huge as we keep building on this equity.

#202 by Mantolives

Yes I read that post Manto. I should have mentioned it ... sorry.

You also gave the correct references of the laws protecting FDI, but there`s more like provision of free land etc. The Cost of doing business is also lower than in most other countries.

There is just `one` problem preventing Pak from a full take-off, and that is the cynicism of our entrepreneurs. They expect too much of the Government. In a way it is not their fault as well because they were never weaned off Ayub Khan`s doling out the country`s exchequer to industrialists in the form of subsidies and bonus vouchers. They wish that to continue even in a WTO regime, when the Government simply cannot underwrite their inefficiencies. Therefore you`ve recently seen a drop in exports.

Re: # 200

May I attract your attention to my post 99...

#99 by Mantolives on January 31, 2007 4:20am PT
Re: # 98

You`ve already mentioned infrastructure. So I`ll leave it out. Pakistan`s macroeconomic indicators have been positive for many years now...

It is the investment regime that is most attractive really... First of all economic sectors open to Foreign Direct Investment and there is complete equal treatment to local and foreign investors including 100 % foreign equity- No Government sanction required.
There is a very tax / tariff incentives package. Complete remittance of Royalty, Technical & Franchise Fee, Capital, Profits, Dividends is allowed.

Pakistan has one of the most liberal investment protection legal regimes in the world... following laws are in place

Foreign Private Investment (Promotion & Protection) Act, 1976.
Protection of Economic Reforms Act, 1992
Foreign Currency Accounts (Protection) Ordinance, 2001

Not only that Pakistan is party to the Paris convention on Arbitration.

As for human resources... it is well known that skilled Pakistanis are as good as if not better than Indians... despite what ever propaganda you might wanna do in favour of Eye Eye Tee and Eye Eye Em.

Over all... Pakistan being unexplored offers much better opportunities vis a vis cost of business than India...

....contd....

A major tragedy is that Pakistanis do not know their country`s strengths, while every tom, dick & harry will peel off a dozen things which are wrong. The FP article titled ``Know Pakistan`` is a case in point, when the author doesn`t have a clue himself.

#199 by escapist

You`re the author? Oh ok ...

Well, actually it is quite the opposite. It is easier to sell as offshoring rather than outsourcing because, in the former, the Principal has control over standards, quality, just-in-time inventories, and transfer pricing. In outsourcing, he has none of the above.

Pakistan, in fact, is the most liberal in FDI policies as compared to all other countries in the region including of-course India as well as China. Malaysia has capital controls, so does Thailand, as well as Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. Each of the foregoing countries has a variety of restrictive regulations on holding, repatriation, divestment, sectoral entry, and domestic market access. Pakistan has none.

Re: # 198

Zeemax, Your comment has got me thinking! You certainly have valid point. But again, if its hard to sell Pakistan as a outsourcing destination, it would be even harder to sell Pakistan as an offshoring destination.

Regards
Noman

#194 by majumdar

I gave as proof the example of 6 success stories in Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan, Thailand, S. Korea and China who did it in the last ten-twenty years through offshoring, and not outsourcing. How do you think India can do it by going in the opposite direction?

#196

I think this ``car`` is just great! It even has an attached bathroom for all those outpurings of crap!

#130 Nasah
[ lock the Mulla in the masjid and the army in the barracks ]

Great idea, Nasah sahib.

The only problem is - who will do it?

Certainly not the likes of the present day wishy-washy wimps who do double duty as embodiments of the twin evils of politics and la-la-law and are only comfortable venting themselves in front of the computer when not out there shopping for a ``car`` which will satisfy all their needs - especially that of physical protection.

Like this one, for example! (Unfortunately, it still lacks an engine. But somehow, it is no surprise. And since when one has to actually GO somewhere?!!)

..While medical BOP is far better no recession or less patients as west and our country getting lots of diseases due excess food drink, they are similar. While Indian doctors may be good they are better in treating diseases due to lack of food etc. due wide speard diseases of poverty like underweight. Our folks are fat like white people so better treated in Pakistan.
Good day..

ROFL.. your posts are fun as always..

Zeemax sahib,

Even if your contention about outsourcing and offshoring are correct, I am not sure that even if technology transfer takes place it will involve the latest technologies, it could just be that outdated technology may be dumped.

(That post was not meant to knock Hindustan`s policy, )

Ultimately the proof of the pudding would be in the eating, ten years down the line it would be clear whether India or Pak or any other country`s economic policy has borne fruit.

Regards

So anymore comments re #133? I.e. difference between `Outsourcing`, and `Offshoring`?

That post was not meant to knock Hindustan`s policy, but to show that outsourcing is niothing to cheer about, while offshoring translates into sustained development and increased standards of living for large segmenets of the populations.

It is also possible that the meaning of the phrase ``as is your wont`` might have completely escaped the Eye Eye Tee grad Harish mian.

Yaar Harish mian,

So couldn`t find any one other than your kind self who also uses ``mercenary zeal`` instead of ``missionary zeal``?

Next time don`t be clever by half. It just reflects badly on Hindus in general. My honest guess is that you had heard ``missionary zeal`` but were not sure. Why don`t you just admit you made a boo boo as you always do. Own up for once atleast. I don`t try and score points like this because I don`t need to. I am merely paying you back for your aborted attempt to impugn the usage of the word ``envy`` yesterday. My advice for you to go to dictionary.com was for your benefit alone. Anyone with a basic knowledge of the English language can point out that there is no such thing as ``Mercenary zeal`` for religiousity, but we can`t take this as a given when talking about Eye Eye Tee grads.

Now why don`t you just accept the needful and move on to the real issue. Why are you willing to sell your women million times over - as you stated in your ilog- to Azim Premji?

#188 by Yasser

Now I am not anal about the English language at all, but apparently you try and score points this way.

Although you`d think the way you manage contradictions just within a span of two posts is amazing, it looks rather stupid and imbecile. This is what you said in #186:

``Showing off your mastery of the English language again are you? Now go to www.dictionary.com, as is your wont, and check what the word ``mercenary`` really means. I think you meant ``missionary`` not ``mercenary``.``

And now you say you don`t try and score points!! Some smarts that is!

The fact that you even had to refer to the dictionary to understand the meaning of the word mercenary speaks volumes about your Madarssah background, although even a high school kid would use it without giving it a second thought. You once boasted that you`d never been educated in Pakistan, but this one ignorant post belies that claim.

FYI My supposedly indignant behavior at having my father being abused by a poverty stricken lowlife is justified. Some of us hold our own families in high regard. It is certainly more justified than screaming and howling how many women in your family Azim Premji can buy million times over as you did in your ilog, simply because I stated the fact that my father drives a better car than Azim Premji.

Harish mian,

You almost sound adorable when you try to wiggle your sorry rearend out of a tight spot. Oh so now it is about your intended ``use``, even though no English speaking person from the English speaking world would ever use it like this ... Meanwhile you had a problem with the word envy, the usage of which was produced yesterday. Now I am not anal about the English language at all, but apparently you try and score points this way. Hence I am forced to ask you to please furnish us proof of the use of this ``mercenary zeal`` of religiousity other than by your kind self or an Indian like yourself.

#186 by Yasser

Now go to www.dictionary.com, as is your wont, and check what the word ``mercenary`` really means.

The problem Yasser dear is that you overreach yourself far beyond what your limited mental faculties would allow you to. How would you know what I intended to use? You know what a mercenary does, don`t you? That`s precisely the reason why it was used. You used your conversion to benefit out of it, not really because of any firm conviction. I can dig out your old posts where you proferred various excuses to explain your multiple (if I may use the word) conversions, if it comes to that.

I must say- to borrow from your post- it is always amusing to set your tail on fire and watch the fun as you go about howling and jumping like a monkey.

That`s all you can do Yasser, you even have to borrow insults from others. In any case, it was fun watching you howl and scream that your dad drives a Maybach when someone called him a dog. You were well and truly the monkey I described in my last post.

Dear Harish mian,

``Spoken like a true Qadiani. When everything else fails, attack the other person`s religion. But why am I not surprised?!``

Love for all- hatred for none...Ahmadi motto. But I doubt I am following that because religion to me is little more than a label...

``If you really had ``scant regard for religion``, why the almost mercenary fervor?``

Showing off your mastery of the English language again are you? Now go to www.dictionary.com, as is your wont, and check what the word ``mercenary`` really means. I think you meant ``missionary`` not ``mercenary``. I must say- to borrow from your post- it is always amusing to set your tail on fire and watch the fun as you go about howling and jumping like a monkey.

#183 by Yasser

However, some of us don`t derive our morality from religion but simple humanity itself. This is - I am sure- incomprehensible to the Hindu mind.

Spoken like a true Qadiani. When everything else fails, attack the other person`s religion. But why am I not surprised?!

So while I might have scant regard for religion, I recognise family and familial ties as the basic unit for humanity.

The fact that you found the need to change your religion half a dozen times belies this statement. If you really had ``scant regard for religion``, why the almost mercenary fervor? And more importantly, why talk about others` beliefs?

Precisely why your overzealous pride in Premji`s wealth instead of your own father`s is quite amusing to me.

Just to set your chaddis on fire. It is always amusing to set your tail on fire and watch the fun as you go about howling and jumping like a monkey.

Used to be a time when the interacts at chowk used to be better than the article itself. Sad to say, that`s a thing of the past now.

There`s such an eagerness to be seen as true to your (Indian or Pakistani) identity that commonsense and reasonableness fall by the wayside.

Unplugged is much better. At least there`s a bunch of us there who are irreverent without being downright insulting.

This sucks.

Dear harish mian,

Spoken like a true Hindu. However, some of us don`t derive our morality from religion but simple humanity itself. This is - I am sure- incomprehensible to the Hindu mind. So while I might have scant regard for religion, I recognise family and familial ties as the basic unit for humanity.

Precisely why your overzealous pride in Premji`s wealth instead of your own father`s is quite amusing to me. Is it a Hindu thing?

#181 by Yasser

No my dear Harish mian, on the contrary it is you didn`t realise that I am not a Gurumoorthy to go around selling human beings from my family to the highest bidder.

Bhai Yasser, by now Chowkies are all too familiar with your character. For a man who has no qualms about changing his religion as often as he would change clothes, we very well know you wouldn`t mind doing anything.

No my dear Harish mian, on the contrary it is you didn`t realise that I am not a Gurumoorthy to go around selling human beings from my family to the highest bidder.

We, the Pakistanis inter alia Sunnis, Shias, Ismailis, Ahmadis, do not consider ``women`` objects to be sold. Please refer to my earlier posts on the ``psyche of the Indian male`` to see where this ailment stems from.

#178 by Yasser

He is declaring that his women are for sale million times over.

Poor Yasser mian, he doesn`t realize that it was not I who was jumping up and down shouting from the rooftops as to how rich my family was. I never claimed that I drive a luxury vehicle nor did I declare how much I earn.

Neo-patriotism may or may not be related to poverty, but insecurity sure causes one to boast about non-existent riches, which is what our friend is exactly doing on UP.

Re: # 175
You have good points. But I do not agree we have bad image. Lots antipakistani get more in talking about that and they create ``atmosphere`` and our liberal , seculars wash hands in same propaganda. Actually middle eastern are muslims and they have affinity and they do not liked to be seen by indian ./ nonmuslim and specially his womenfolk so they prefer Pakistan over India. There can be improvement but things are not too bad and system is working. If expaks spread word in usa, england etc about good cheap medical services n pakistan it can be flood of people coming to Pakistan. But EXpaks should start with few steps. ( like coming to change glasses, contact lenses, yearly heart pipes checking, talking to psyilogist, cosmetic surgery, fat reduction, Yunani mediciene, teath cleaning all can be done while in pakistan at 10% price and individul attention by doctors and theripsts, even if prices are correct you can allow indians to come from treatment medical visas only for large cities so no chance like extra curricular activity terrorism, blowing up bridges, electric lines and gas pipelines.etc. Aghans and Iranians will be very interested as in both countries pakistani doctors are working for years and got good reputation. Central asia is looking towards us to provide good medical services as Russian doctors are not qualified in western type medicine. It is bubble it will collapse as china 100 million surplus farmers srat coolie program work. While medical BOP is far better no recession or less patients as west and our country getting lots of diseases due excess food drink, they are similar. While Indian doctors may be good they are better in treating diseases due to lack of food etc. due wide speard diseases of poverty like underweight. Our folks are fat like white people so better treated in Pakistan.
Good day

Neopatriotism

In his ilog today, Harish mian declares (praising Azim Premji):

``whose net worth would be enough to purchase every woman in this chutiya`s family a million times over.``

What loyalty and self effacing behavior from the Neo-pat Harish mian. He is declaring that his women are for sale million times over. Is Neo-patriotism directly linked to poverty I wonder?

#170 by zeemax

It doesn`t rent out it`s nationhood for that `chwanni`.

Is our friend talking about Pakistan here? Because that`s the only country in the neighborhood that has signed up for the WOT for billions of dollars in return. And then there is history to go with it, Zia complaining that US aid was `peanuts` in return for what Pakistan was doing and all that.

Pakis have been trying to climb on the IT bandwagon for a long time now..and have been miserable failures at it...

Fact that pakis can`t tell the difference between reality and their self-deluded version of reality doesn`t help any..

Take a look at this article from 1999..

SITE to establish Indus Technology Park

KARACHI (July 1) : The Sindh Industrial Trading Estate, (SITE) Ltd.
is to establish Indus Technology Park at an initial cost of Rs 150
million at Site Super Highway Estate behind Gulshan-e-Maymar to train
graduates in software and to increase Pakistan`s share in software
exports. The Site Ltd. has earmarked 50 acres of land for the park.

Revealing plan for the Indus Technology Park, Mir Hussain Ali,
Managing Director SITE Ltd. told a Press briefing at a local hotel on
Tuesday that the idea of technology park had been conceived following
the success of such parks in India(paki see, paki do..try to do anyway..), Malaysia and Singapore. It will
provide turnkey solutions to all the software technology needs under
one roof.

Elaborating main objectives of the Indus Technology Park, Mir Hussain
Ali said that it aimed to promote software exports from Pakistan; to
bring Pakistan`s name on the international information technology
(IT) map; and enable the talented youth to develop their skills and
to provide facilities and incentives of international standard to
investors under one roof.

BPO, Medical Services, Telemarketing, whatever is the game of the moment,
Pakistan needs to be there. We are capable. We can provide competition to India in any of the above. Unfortunately, our international image is not commensurate with our true potential.

Lack of a coherent polity, political instability, pockets of islamic extremism & fundamentalism, our failure to isolate groups of jehadi mindsets, the western world`s misplaced and exaggerated perception of the whole of Pakistan as Terror/ Taliban connection are some of the reasons why things are not happenin on the scale of magnitude.

Re: # 173
You have point.
I read and heard many reputed doctors have large % of foreign patients. Many middle eastern citizens are visiting pakistan for medical services including disability theropis. I this that type ow work has more value added. Also whole new sector of doctors are coming coming upm specially suited to foreign patients. These doctors are ambitious like IT starters. I think pakistan will be becoming Mecca for foreign patients who can not afford to go to usa of Europe being very costly. Now many dollors are making millions of rupees very year. They do not want to come out say that as it underground economy and they do not pay taxes. Almost all doctors serving foreign clients are far richer than Deshi Tech people. Real rich people never say they are rich. Some have become so reach they do not treat locals unless they are suggest by ``BIG REFERENCES``. Pakistani doctors i Pakistan are making 10 times money than tech coolies.

BPO is stupid. We don`t need it in Pakistan.

zee please. many ppl c things that arent there such as ufo`s

#168 by DrDr

It`s all there to see for those who have eyes to see. If you can`t, I cannot help you. Nothing secret about it, but you guys` eyes are behind thick shades which blind you.

#167 by stuka

Ok I`ll risk a response to you even though you`re no better than your colleagues I`ve advised to fcuk off.

China `manufactures` that chwanni. It doesn`t rent out it`s nationhood for that `chwanni`.

for a country NOT trying to get into this whole IT fad, Pakiland is sure spending a lot of money on lipstick-on-a-pig consultants..

Ministry to hire int`l marketing consultant

MONEM FAROOQI
LAHORE - The Information Technology Ministry is planning to hire an international marketing consultant for promoting Pakistan as a destination of choice for IT outsourcing, it is learnt.
Talking to The Nation on Wednesday, the ministry officials said that Pakistan Software Export Board (PSEB) had finalised the term of references including devising the long and short term methodology for promoting Pakistan’s soft image abroad.
The officials said that the short-term strategy included the projecting aims for launching campaigns over next two years for the international and local media.
The officials said that Pakistan IT industry had expertise in major areas of IT and ITeS service including retail banking & financial products, medical transcription, animation & graphics,mobile content, document management, enterprise resource planning software (ERP) and utilities and insurance applications, which would be the focal point of the activities.
The officials said that the project aimed to promote IT industry skills of Pakistan in these countries by launching various campaigns. They said that the campaigns might be covering generic media channels but the core strategy of the PSEB media plan was to approach the industry specific channels locally as well as globally.
The long term strategy would be encircling the projects show-case / market the Pakistan IT sector in a favourable light in the local and international markets, which is directly connected with the primary objectives of enhancing the exports of Pakistan IT sector.
Talking about the strengths, the officials said that international leaders like Bearing Point, NCR Teradata, Mentor Graphics & ZTE had been marked to locate their development and consultancy centre in Pakistan. They said that an IT work force of 90,000 with good english and people skills growing at almost 20,000 a year, more than 100 ISO certified IT companies with over 20 undergoing CMMi Certification.
The officials said that a reliable digital telecom infrastructure with backup and reliable energy and transport networks had been available with Pakistan with an ambitious program of world class IT parks with rental rates under $ 1 per square foot per month.
The officials said that a prosperous economy that offered lucrative domestic opportunities and attracting increasing amounts of international investment needed a steadily improving risk rating and tightening environment for intellectual property protection.
The officials said that a competitive edge in terms of software quality, HR and security was the Pakistan’s strength besides that a sever shortage of quality workforce in neighbouring countries like Philippines, India etc. which at one time were considered to be best outsourcing destinations. They said that the salaries of the IT workforce in these countries also increased dramatically and the trend was still on the higher side. Security and quality are also raising concerns that give Pakistan an edge over other players in the sector, they added.
However, the officials said that perception, average network infrastructure and political instability, had been the weakness for the Pakistan. They further said that despised the weakness, the country got the opportunities as number of companies abroad had been considering Pakistan as an upcoming destination of choice, which already had become one of the top players in accounting, medical and telemarketing outsourcing.

So pakis are playing the wage arbitrage with lowly India!!

And seriously pakis..security and quality are your USPs!!! HAHAHA...you guys are sure deluded..

zee, serious abt what? R u basing these on official pronouncements or wishful thinking or inside info thats not publicized?

``
We Pakistanis do not think like that. Neither do the Chinese BTW. We look way beyond the `chwanni`.``

Zeemax, are you kidding? Do you know the margins of soft goods manufactured in China? The Chinese focus literally on the Chawanni...that`s their real profit margin on a plastic hairbrush sold at the local dollar store. The Chinese just happen to make billions of those!!! India is no where in the picture of monetizing those chawannis in manufacturing.

If anything, your rants of Honor etc are the complete opposite of Chinese mentality...look at what Manto said..``It no longer matters whether ABC worships Ghaznavi, Ghauri or Babur... ABC wants to play ball. ``

To paraphrase Deng, it does not matter if the cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice.

#162 i am talkin about rural china .. there are no job guarantees or medical care...in fact things now are much worse for them because whatever doctors and hospitals exist, demand ``fees`` because they want to be rich like their counterparts in shanghai. as for the wait-and-see and sundry hints..it sounds like a geo-strategic militaristic adventure involving nuclear bombs.

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#160 by DrDr

I don`t know if you`re serious. So forget it.

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#157 by jang

Yes there`s no safety net for the coastal special economic zones in China such as Shanghai, Guangdong, Shenzhen etc. But there still is in the rest of China. There are guaranteed jobs, and wage controls, and central planning for essential coommodity prices.

As for your next question, I`m tempted to just say wait and see .. but I`ll give you a hint. You`ll need to look up the rest.

Pakistan does not take half-hearted steps. It goes all the way or nothing. It is running a 4.6% current account to GDP ratio by fully liberalising imports (a step I had opposed before) because it knows where the money is going to come from to meet that deficit.

The world scenario is shifting, and Pakistan has seen that shift. This should suffice.

We all know about paki real-long term policy which involves the life hereafter, so jee lets not go there.

#157 exactly. zee, what is pakistan`s official policy wrto economy, foreign trade & industrilaization that u r echoing?

#156

yes!

they are not in slums because of poverty, I bet 80% of slum dwellers in Mumbai are well above the official urban poverty line. It is because a irrational urban development policy has made housing unaffordable for them.

calcutta and bombay must be part of pakistan then...

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/07/07/MN269368.DTL

According to a 2002 report by the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan: ``At least 40 percent of the urban population lives in slums, which in many cases lack sanitation, drinking water or any basic amenities -- leaving residents exposed to acute health hazards.``


http://meero.worldvision.org/sf_pakistan.php

Pakistan`s majestic fortresses bear witness to a country in deep poverty, where more than a third of children under five are underweight. A shocking 30-35 women die everyday from pregnancy related complications. Half the population is illiterate and more than 40% of the population is under 15.

Pakistan is ranked 142 on the Human Development Index, compared to India 118 and Uganda 146. United Nations Development Programme.

jeemax,
from what i understand from my chinese collegues, there is no communism (safety net) left in china..no healthcare, no housing guarantee, no job guarantee, or for that matter no guarantee of retaining your home if it comes in the way of new construction. so i dont understand what you are talking about? these are eyewitness accounts. the chinese are selling their soul, environment and children.

so while pakistan (according to you) methodically forgoes lowly BPOs (because it will widen rich-poor gap presumably), what alternative grand scheme is it currently deploying? soviet-style 5 year plan mega-projects, grand housing schemes for the masses, communes, what?

#155 by bongdongs

So 60% of Bombay population defecates on the roadside or along the rail tracks because they`re not `poor` but because of political reasons?

Bombay is they way it is, because of flawed government policy set by a apathetic state government more interesting in winning votes in rural maharastra than running the city.

it is not because mumbaikars are poor!

Another excellent article by Andy Mukherjee ...

Why Rich Mumbai Has Such Appalling Real Estate

zeemax` babblings are straight out of the paki playbook...under the sour grapes section..

they tried as hard as they could(and are STILL trying) to get on the IT bandwagon and when they were miserable failures at it, they say they didn`t want to get in anyway...

they begged repeatedly for a nuclear deal and when they were smacked down, they said they didn`t want it and India was screwed because of the deal(a deal they really tried to get)...

contd....#151 by zeemax #149 by DrDr

.....so what you see of China is just 10% of what China is all about ...

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#149 by DrDr

zee, whats the meaning of communism in todays china?

One Country, two systems. Hong Kong and all the coastal regions are capitalist, while 90% of China is communist just as in Mao`s time.

[I`ve been to Calcutta]

have you been to karachi? or dhaka?

zee, whats the meaning of communism in todays china?

#147 by concerned1

... of-course you know what I mean ... no need to google for you ... I`ve been to Calcutta.

[...Pakistan does not have starving populations sleeping on the streets...]


just the first link from dr google....am sure arjun can post the pics from here and elsewhere...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/3922031a12.html

STREET LIFE: A boy, with his monkey, eats his food outside a restaurant in Karachi. Breathing in fumes from glue-soaked rags and glue-filled plastic bags is a daily ritual of the more than 14,000 street kids who live rough on the streets of Pakistan`s biggest city

#142 by jang

However Jang, I know what you`re saying. You did pull yourselves up by the bootstraps, and I`m full of admiration for that because Hindustan`s poverty problems are way above those of any country in the entire S.E Region, leave alone Pakistan. Pakistan does not have starving populations sleeping on the streets.

But, If I was to choose a path towards poverty alleviation, it would not be resource allocation to BPO, simply because middle-class service export widens the rich-poor gap instead of narrowing it. And if I was on this path, I would know that I`ve sold my soul to the devil for a pittance.

Hindustan will realize that great mistake it made by reversing Nehruvian Fabian Socialism just because it was out of fashion. China retains its communism, and it will do so for at-least another 41 years down the road (i.e. before its Hong Kong commitment for the one nation, two systems runs out). While Hindustan will face even greater poverty problems.

#143 offcourse strategy sure...so pakis (according to you) are throwing the long-ball while forgoing the short-runs. must be somethign geo-strategic ..

#143 by zeemax on January 31, 2007 12:16pm PT


We Pakistanis do not think


Which is why you are failures in manufacturing and failures in IT......

#142 by jang

What you say is true ... but that`s bania mentality. You know ... `chwanni par girney wali`.

We Pakistanis do not think like that. Neither do the Chinese BTW. We look way beyond the `chwanni`.

#141 yar jeemax sure sure about all these asymptotic shyte..but rules of the game change every day..1 day its code-cooling the next its IP generation, third day its purely product definition. its kinda silly to let go of what is achievable today because ``in the long run``..i mean make money now, tommorow things will surely be different anyways, so all this asymptotic stuff is pure sour-grapes, esp when we are talking about pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps.

#140 by DrDr

You`re on the right track. Though I neede some time to figure out your netspeak.

But you`re right it`s the intellectual property where the game will be won or lost, and not outsourcing which I maintain is just menial work one step ahead of exporting amahs.

#133 zee, afaik chinese manufacturers typically have 2 sign nda`s & r not a party 2 the IP that the principals bring in. Transfer of tech happens mostly for manufacturing 4 domestic market - if a multinational wants 2 enter chinese market they end up having 2 share IP - but if u r manufacturing lcd panels 4 an american co with a taiwanese agent in mainland china very little IP is intentionally given away. There r allegations of IP theft but thats a different story..
U also have 2 keep in mind that the chinese boom was financed by the bamboo network - overseas ethnic chinese including taiwanese. Theres a 100 ways 2 skin a cat..

that`s right prophet tahmed(peace be unto your self-righteous rear):

brit pakis get arrested for terrorism and it`s Indians who`re hateful...

oh no here come the usual suspects loaded up on beer & starting a pissing match! chowk does need 2 moderate these boards..

i am glad you find hope in these pictures arjun. better for you to be happy and rabid than to be miserable and rabid!!

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....contd.... #133

... in fact, BPO is just one step ahead of exporting domestic maids as in the Phillipines/Sri-Lanka/South India example ...

#133 by zeemax on January 31, 2007 9:21am PT


But this policy in the long term is a losing one as it does not add value and thus does not contribute to wage growth.


Pakis said the exact same thing when Indian IT exports were at 5 billion..not they`re near the 20 billion mark and India is getting into chip design and other stuff(considered, I`m sure, too lowly by pakis), Pakis are STILL repeating the same thing..

The fact is that the paki government has been trying really hard since the late 90s to get on the IT bandwagon..and hasn`t had much success with it..and having failed, pakis are telling us they didn`t want to get into this whole IT thing anyway...

Sour grapes...



But this policy in the long term is a losing one as it does not add value and thus does not contribute to wage growth.


Sure..that may be true in Pakiworld, the magical mystical place where paki delusions are reality...but in the real world...

India reports highest hike in salaries at 13.8%

Re the author`s appeal to stick to the subject, and his genuine desire to see growth in the BPO sector in Pakistan. I ask, why? I.e. Is BPO good for a country? While setting priorities, should Pakistan give precedence to BPO in its policies? My answer is a resounding NO.

Let`s start with getting the terminology straight. There`s `Outsourcing`, and there`s `Offshoring`. Many interactors have confused one with the other.

Outsourcing aims at labour arbitrage alone, with little or no stake by the Principal, no transfer of proprietary technology, and a short-term renewable commitment. Offshoring on the other hand involves a majority or at-least an equal stake alongwith domestic partners, transfer of proprietary technology, and a long-term commitment by the Principal. In short, BPO is service export as long as it is competitive, while Offshoring is FDI.

All the Asian tigers ... every single one of them, including Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan, Thailand, S. Korea and now China in its coastal regions were built on Offshoring and not Outsourcing. Interestingly, Thailand just this month has imposed capital controls restricting foreign ownership to a maximum of 50% in equity as well as voting rights. Reason they did that was to stop the labour arbitrage which they felt was exploitation of their labour force through 100% voting rights held by foreign interests even while complying with the max 50% equity rule already prevalent in Thailand. They want technology in return for foreigners using their cheap labour. Is that fair or not?

If India is happy with the labour arbitrage alone, it may be their business model, and they`ve done well in getting a sizable chunk of it for now. But this policy in the long term is a losing one as it does not add value and thus does not contribute to wage growth. Service export actually lowers wages as competition intensifies. For example, if the English speaking African nations with a large and fairly educated urban workforce, like say Nigeria were to become competitors, BPO wages in India will fall as the technology involved is commonplace and the services are of low to medium-skill levels.

So I do not agree with the author that BPO should be encouraged as a focus for growth. At best, it can be a peripheral service sector industry. Being a recipient of Offshoring is what is required in an outward looking (i.e. the focused external sector) economic policy.*

As far as I know, Pakistan is doing just that.

* (Which too I oppose but that`s another subject).

#127 by Mantolives on January 31, 2007 7:56am PT


Pakistani establishment is actually quite happy with the status quo on kashmir for many different reasons


and the fox was actually very happy that he didn`t get to eat the grapes...

#129 by Mantolives on January 31, 2007 8:22am PT


At least he doesn`t have to make stuff up about his dad driving a maybach...

reverting to the subject -- lock the Mulla in the masjid and the army in the barracks and the BPO ka Baap will have a field day...

Re: # 122

Looks like Mohar has a terrible life he is living that he has to live vicariously through the successes of ``Tata`` and failures of some ``pakis`` in London...

didnt i find the solution to kashmir 7 years ago on chowk? why are we still discussing it?

Re: # 126

I think the solution of Kashmir lies in improvisation on the status quo. Pakistani establishment is actually quite happy with the status quo on kashmir for many different reasons... and truth be told is hated second only to the Indians by the Kashmiris themselves.

We`ve learnt a hard lesson putting up our ``Muslim`` brothers the Afghans - all 3 million of them- for over two decades... many of them don`t want to leave and yet persist on cursing us, the only country that has done something for them.... so why should we imagine the Kashmiris (independent Kashmir that is) would be any different. Instead the solution lies in maximum autonomy to Indian held Kashmir and Azad Kashmir (with their current borders as they stand today in both states) within India and Pakistan respectively, porous borders and demilitarisation on both sides.

India and Pakistan need to let bygones be bygones... accept that while both might have legal and moral claims that maybe justified by one thing or the other ... that ultimately we must accept whatever little we can on both sides.

#124 by bulleya on January 31, 2007 7:26am PT
``....kashmir is already lost for india.....one needs to accept reality.....i am, at times, totally amazed by the lack of acceptance of realities, amongst various indians and pakistanis.....i think pakistanis should open up for business with indian and indians should now accept the fact that they cannot continue forcefully holding onto kashmir, and must agree to the wishes of the kashmiris and starting softening its stance........ ``

incase india and pakistan give up on kashmir, do u think an independent kashmiri nation will be able to survive. and kashmiri nation will only consist of the valley...because jammu with majority hindu and ladhak with majority buddhist will not join the independent nation.

any sloution to kashmir will have to be within the perview of indian and pakistan.

rgds,

devkant.

#123 by Mantolives on January 31, 2007 7:18am PT

reasonable post. i agree with most of it.

(now don`t go a wild trip calling me names)

rgds,

devkant.

anil #77: ``When this change happens, terror looses institutionalization of terror against India. A big win for India, especially if India does not loose Kashmir in the process...``

its the last line in your argument that has caused most of the problems in south asia.....india will, at some stage, have to give up on such rigid thinking...this is the basis of all the violence and terrorism - most of which is state terrorism from india in kashmir....

just out of curiousity, what do you think it will take to move indians away from this rigid line of thinking...as i don`t see any peace occuring as long as, ``not loosing`` kashmir is the strategy for india......

....kashmir is already lost for india.....one needs to accept reality.....i am, at times, totally amazed by the lack of acceptance of realities, amongst various indians and pakistanis.....i think pakistanis should open up for business with indian and indians should now accept the fact that they cannot continue forcefully holding onto kashmir, and must agree to the wishes of the kashmiris and starting softening its stance........

Ranjit,

Illuminating bits in a rather mediocre post...

`The hope is that Pakistan will reconcile itself to this situation, emulate India as much as it can and try to get ``spillover`` business.`

I agree that in the BPO sector this is the best scenario and probably not bad over all either. If people were to just realise that the ``spill over`` business itself will be sizeable for our significantly smaller population... they would know that we have a good thing going.

I expect- if reasonableness and calm prevails in general- to see China with an Economy worth US $ 25 trillion and India around 12-13 trillion by 2015-2025 and the US at 20-30 trillion ... if Pakistan plays its cards right .... i.e. peace and normalcy with India and status quo with China and United States... regardless of what ``international image`` we ``Pakis`` will have an economy of between US$ 1-2 trillion which will be more than enough for Pakistan`s progress provided we can tackle the issues of population and energy ... Pakistan`s problems- and the fauji-lovers won`t like me for this- start and end with our utter disregard for a constitutional disposition and long term institutional stability i.e. transtition of power and compact between various provinces of the federation.

The mood here is very much to get on with the programme, do business and strengthen ourselves economically and politically... a growing realisation that all wars of the future are of ideas and economies has seeped into Pakistanis... even the most hard core and radical of the Islamists have now come to this realisation. It no longer matters whether ABC worships Ghaznavi, Ghauri or Babur... ABC wants to play ball.

Anil Mian`

Consider this: The day Indians closed their biggest overseas takeover deal of $10bn in London, a bunch of pakis were arrested for planning to behead a british soldier in video...

So Anil mian - pakis are what they are, they ain`t going to be ``normal`` in any sense of the word... you are old and you should be much worldly wiser, you should know that you can`t work with people who have taken every opportunity in past to make nuisance for you and will continue to do so, there is no indication whatsover that things will be different...

Once bitten twice shy... in case of people like you and DM, no matter how many times you are bitten, you just refuse to learn... un-f****ing-believable... I am sorry to say this: but please stop that kind of stupidity right now...

Lets face it. We have an issue at hand that has to do much with our education system, the HEC that regulates and partols the professional education and lasly, the opportunities our businessmen create for BPO.

Still some groups like Streaming Networks, A or R etc are doing very well. There must be many more but these come to mind.

Cheerios

Re: # 118

The fundamental issue here is that anything positive about Pakistan will most definitely put a metaphorical red chilly up metaphorical Indian rear orifice. This is experience of having argued with them for 8 years speaking really...

Ofcourse... there are many Indians and Indian businessmen - I have met some fine human beings among them... like Ramalinga Raju... but these are few and far between... Most of them are obsessed with smashing Pakistan.

A ``prosperous Pakistan`` is in their interest and on their lips... but their heart breeds only blackness of the worst kind.

`` ll appereciate if we can keep our discussions on this point, instead of this `My country is better than Yours` arguments. ``

WELCOME TO CHOWK NOMAN SAHAB.

rgds,

devkant.

Friends,

I would request you good people to suggest ways to improve the BPO industry in Pakistan.

Romar is of the opinion that the only way out is to work on improving ties with India and hope for the spill-over work.

I think the situation between Pakistan and India would take sometime to improve to the point where we can see Joint ventures. To me BPO / ITeS is more about poeple and less about geo-politics. I really think the whole issue of extremism can be tackled with increasing job oppertunities and reducing poverty. BPO industry surely can help in this, specially in Pakistan with so many educated yet jobless youth just ruining the lives.

I ll appereciate if we can keep our discussions on this point, instead of this `My country is better than Yours` arguments.

Kind regards
Noman

Dear Harish mian,

Your claims are non-starters as I was merely responding to the claims by Indians that there are no Pakistanis employed by organisations like Microsoft. Hence your hogwash, which is a grudge you are nursing really, is of no importance here.



Majumdar,

``Can you tell me something more about HUBCO``

http://www.hubpower.com/nhubco/

Manto mian,

(Please recall HUBCO in Pakistan which was at one time the largest in Asia.... I think judging by that I`d say Pakistan has a pretty decent record even at its own cost. )

Can you tell me something more about HUBCO. Choice of fuels etc.

IMHO, this business of govts dishonouring PPAs can be done away with by simply privatising all power companies and let all producers, transmitters and distributors fending for themselves in the market place.

Regards

In between, Yasser tried to pass off some unknown Pakis working in mid-level positions at Microsoft as ``bigshots``. Compared with the Indians at Microsoft, these Pakis were not even half way down the chain. Poor guy, shot off his mouth once too often and has been desperately trying to cover up this monumental gaffe since then..without any luck.

#111 by Yasser

As for Pakistani engineers... you yourself claimed to have worked with them in the US...

But it was not I who claimed that ``tens of thousands of Paki engineers were working for major US companies``, you did. So where are they? Or was that in some hash-induced daze that you made that absurd claim?

``#110 by majumdar on January 31, 2007 5:05am PT
But there is a fairly big list of achievers coming out from IITs/IIMs. I would get back with a list if I have the energy. ``

don`t bother. the list is right here below: -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_notable_IIT_alumni

of course the last time manto bhai was shown this list, he dismissed it by saying that he does not know any of these losers!!!!!

rgds,

devkant.

Re: # 110

Please recall HUBCO in Pakistan which was at one time the largest in Asia.... I think judging by that I`d say Pakistan has a pretty decent record even at its own cost.

Re: # 108

Its been more than five months since you apologised for lying like you did on several issues ... shall we revisit that board now ... it was ``Remembering a Great Pakistani: Sir Zafrullah Khan``.

As for Pakistani engineers... you yourself claimed to have worked with them in the US... so what more evidence do you need (unless you`ve never been there which is a distinct possibility given your ``mastery`` of the English language)

Manto mian,

(honoring PPAs is hardly an issue )

PPA is a power purchase agreement between a power producer and an offtaker. Dabhol (Enron) is a prime example of a PPA (which perhaps should not have been signed in the first place) which was not honoured by the Indian Govt.

(Harish mian`s #101 represents true mediocrity 101 of the Injun mind. He is an Eye Eye Tee grad I believe who is employed in the BPO sector ...)

I don`t think I should be judging Harishbhai or anyone else. I guess all of us are entitled to our opinions. But there is a fairly big list of achievers coming out from IITs/IIMs. I would get back with a list if I have the energy.

Regards

Re: # 107

Yaar ...your posts 107 and 103 grant us adequate demonstration of your educational credentials ... and the fact that you insist pigheadedly that you are right ... despite the fact that you probably will shame even Inzimam with your ``superior`` English skills ... shows that humility does not feature in the curriculum either.

It`s been more than a month since you said you`d get back with specifics of ``tens of thousands of bigshot Paki engineers working for major US companies`` and bolted away with your tail tucked in between your legs.

What happened? No luck yet?

#106 by Yasser

The phrase ``I envy you`` is often used as an expression of admiration.

In which case, the word ``praise`` should have sufficed no? But seriously, which Madarssah in Pakistan did you attend?

#105 Yasser

I think we can all see how true my claims are.

And how is that, may we ask? How ``can we all see how true`` your claims are?

Re: # 103

Always resorting to the dictionary.com is expected from a call center worker. Envy is used in several places positively as well... depending on the context.

The phrase ``I envy you`` is often used as an expression of admiration. But you would have to be well educated to understand such nuances of the English language. I don`t blame you .... I blame Eye Eye Tee.

Majumdar,

Harish mian`s #101 represents true mediocrity 101 of the Injun mind. He is an Eye Eye Tee grad I believe who is employed in the BPO sector ... I think we can all see how true my claims are.

I`ll get back to you about a credible source vis a vis Macroeconomic indicators...

As for your question... Pakistan generally has a good track record in being quite laissez faire when it comes to giving foreign investors maximum room to operate. Now that the government allows 100% equity ... honoring PPAs is hardly an issue - unless I am not getting your question. I am talking about the over all legal regime with all laws in toto ofcourse...

guys...lets seriously take our discussion to UP.

rgds,

devkant.

#96 by Yasser

you envy Premji and praise him day in day out because an average Indian has no chance of ever getting what Premji has or can have.

Do you know what the word ``envy`` means? Can you show a single post where any Indian has envied Premji for his wealth?

FTR, here`s what envy means (I`m sure you don`t know what it means given your Madarssah background)

1 : painful or resentful awareness of an advantage enjoyed by another joined with a desire to possess the same advantage

3 : an object of envious notice or feeling

Narayana Murthy was an average Indian before he founded Infosys, Laxmi Mittal`s father was just another steel trader before his family bought an ailing steel mill in Indonesia, Dhirubhai Ambani was just another average Indian when he forayed into the Middle East in search of a living as a lowly clerk. Today these men are synonymous with Indian enterprise. I can understand your defeatist and pessimistic approach because in Pakistan, such things just do not happen or are extremely rare. But there is a success story in every bylane in India where ordinary men made a fortune through sheer innovation and hard work. That is why the disproportionate percentage of Indian-founded startups in Silicon Valley too, but being a Paki, you won`t understand what hard work and enterprise means.

Manto mian,

(Pakistan`s macroeconomic indicators have been positive for many years now... )

Where could I get data on indicators like the consolidated (GoP + State Govt) Fiscal Deficit/GDP, Public Debt/GDP, CAD etc for the last five years for Pak.

(First of all economic sectors open to Foreign Direct Investment and there is complete equal treatment to local and foreign investors including 100 % foreign equity- )

If true certainly very creditable.

How has the experience been in honouring PPAs and other offtake agreements in the infra segments?

(Not only that Pakistan is party to the Paris convention on Arbitration. )

If I am not mistaken, so is India.

(despite what ever propaganda you might wanna do in favour of Eye Eye Tee and Eye Eye Em.)

I don`t think it is entirely propaganda. Some of IIT and IIM Alumni have certainly made it very big.

Regards

#99 by Yasser

As for human resources... it is well known that skilled Pakistanis are as good as if not better than Indians... despite what ever propaganda you might wanna do in favour of Eye Eye Tee and Eye Eye Em.

Sure..like the ``tens of thousands of Pakis`` working as ``bigshot managers`` in ``top US companies``..no?

PS: the red tape has been considerably reduced now... under Shaukat Aziz... Pakistan is quickly moving towards E-Government .... when I was working for SAP Pakistan division of SAP Malaysia, one of our biggest clients was the government of Pakistan which is going all out ...

Re: # 98

You`ve already mentioned infrastructure. So I`ll leave it out. Pakistan`s macroeconomic indicators have been positive for many years now...

It is the investment regime that is most attractive really... First of all economic sectors open to Foreign Direct Investment and there is complete equal treatment to local and foreign investors including 100 % foreign equity- No Government sanction required.
There is a very tax / tariff incentives package. Complete remittance of Royalty, Technical & Franchise Fee, Capital, Profits, Dividends is allowed.

Pakistan has one of the most liberal investment protection legal regimes in the world... following laws are in place

Foreign Private Investment (Promotion & Protection) Act, 1976.
Protection of Economic Reforms Act, 1992
Foreign Currency Accounts (Protection) Ordinance, 2001

Not only that Pakistan is party to the Paris convention on Arbitration.

As for human resources... it is well known that skilled Pakistanis are as good as if not better than Indians... despite what ever propaganda you might wanna do in favour of Eye Eye Tee and Eye Eye Em.

Over all... Pakistan being unexplored offers much better opportunities vis a vis cost of business than India...

Manto mian,

(see that Pakistan is actually a much more sophisticated and better place than India for investment.)

In what sense. Better macroeconomic climate/ better policy framework/better access to markets/ better access to finances/ better human resources availability/ better nfrastructure/lower cost of doing business. Infrastructure would certainly seem to be a positive, not sure about the rest.

Would be interested if you can provide some good references.

Regards

The more I think about it, the more I realise that Indians lack that simple thing called the milk of human kindness or decency.

They boast about wealth, material success etc etc (despite being poverty stricken a-holes) but if someone shows them their place (after patiently bearing them for more than 8 years), they are suddenly the epitome of all evil.

Re: # 93

There is a difference between claiming something and praising someone for his wealth.
If you can produce a single post from me praising Nawaz Sharif`s wealth or anyone else`s wealth (except my father`s which was brought up only in the context of ``Qadiani dog`` issue) for that matter, I will back down from that assertion.

As for ``stock``... I would also like to see you produce examples of Microsoft shareholders taking as much pride in Bill Gates` wealth as you fellows do in Azim Premji.... I think ... it is the case of havenots. I do not envy Nawaz Sharif because I pretty much have the things I need or want in Pakistan despite being the son of an Ahmadi... you envy Premji and praise him day in day out because an average Indian has no chance of ever getting what Premji has or can have.

#94 by Yasser

... see that Pakistan is actually a much more sophisticated and better place than India for investment...

Sure...never mind the fact that the country had to BEG India for Internet connectivity, when its lines suddenly went down.

Re: # 90

noman mian,

This is the wrong forum for this article. I was happy to leave alone your article... but unfortunately I have been dragged in. So now the fireworks must begin.

If I must comment on this... I think the biggest issue is the propaganda machine used against you .... world over, investors get a heart attack when they hear ``Pakistan``. Much of this is our own fault ofcourse but then again reality is no where near close to the picture that is given to the foreign investors... infact, those few who can look beyond the Indian propaganda ... see that Pakistan is actually a much more sophisticated and better place than India for investment... but getting them here is a big issue.

A friend of mine, who works for TRG in business development, told me that they have an office in Phillipines which they use to hook up investors, which they later bring to Pakistan. I think it is a sad state of affairs... but largely because of ignorance rampant.

However the good news is that the world is becoming a smaller place every day and people will not remain oblivious for ever. In the meantime we Pakistanis have to make a real effort putting our own house in order.

#87 by Yasser

... but what part of Azim Premji`s wealth will you or Arjunm or Burpinder ever inherit?

For someone who once claimed to be a part-time economist, you seem to be a dullard. Have you ever heard of the concept of stocks?

This is assuming that Premji the great is not super human and has not secretly fathered all of you... if that assumption is wrong, than you may go ahead and be proud of his wealth as it is your own father`s...

This coming from someone who once claimed that Nawaz Sharif`s Ittefaq foundries would have overtaken Tata Steel had NS not diverted his attention towards politics. Are we to then assume that NS fathered you? And in return for his services, your father was perhaps rewarded with a Mercedes dealership? Of course, all this is assumption, but if it is not, then go ahead and celebrate it any which way you like.

#90 by nomanfaisal on January 31, 2007 3:44am PT

sorry dude....all this was actually meant for UP.

rgds,

devkant.

so you own wipro stock now?

So I wonder how many Microsoft shareholders go around boasting about Bill Gates` wealth like Bill fathered them?

Dear Interactors,

I will request you to please focus your interactions on the topic. We can discuss other political/Social and spirtual issues on UP or other forum.

Kind regards
Noman

``#87 by Mantolives on January 31, 2007 3:18am PT
what part of Azim Premji`s wealth will you or Arjunm or Burpinder ever inherit? ``

err...have u ever heard of stocks and shares?????

rgds,

devkant.

Ah Indians aur their ``rubbin` it in``...

Late Dr. Abdul Salam... another ``Qadiani dog`` in Indian eyes.... is a world famous Pakistani ``minority`` who despite very real discrimination remained wholeheartedly Pakistani to the end.... and has donated his entire wealth to the cause of science in his country...

Meanwhile your world famous Indian minority does not spit on you.

Re: # 84

Dear Harish mian,

The point is - to spell out to you who needs everything spelt out- that while I might legitimately proud of my father`s success- however little that maybe- (and that too only because he was called a ``Qadiani dog`` by one of your ``secular`` Indian brothers here- otherwise I have no interest in boasting about success that has not come directly to me) ... but what part of Azim Premji`s wealth will you or Arjunm or Burpinder ever inherit?

Looks to me that there are more claimants to Azim Premji`s wealth than every single rupee in his treasury... I mean Bill Gates is an American isn`t he? How many Americans go on boasting about his success...

(This is assuming that Premji the great is not super human and has not secretly fathered all of you... if that assumption is wrong, than you may go ahead and be proud of his wealth as it is your own father`s...)

#85 by majumdar

Now of course he is one of the richest in the world. A world famous minority Indian who has chosen voluntarily to live in a fascist hell-hole called India.

ROTFL!!! Majumdar Bhai, did you have to rub it in like this?

Manto mian,

(affording a Honda City lease on 30k/m salary in 2002 was not that big a deal even for a school teacher.)

It is extremely creditable if most Pakistani school teachers could afford a Honda City in 2002. I am not sure many Indian school teachers would have afforded a Honda City in 2002. And certainly not too many Indians even today with a salary of 30K pm would afford a Honda City unless they had a lot of family/unaccounted income to back them up.

(Premji`s father was one of the richest men in India even in 1920s)

Now of course he is one of the richest in the world. A world famous minority Indian who has chosen voluntarily to live in a fascist hell-hole called India.

Regards

#82 by Yasser

Poor Harish mian speaks of Premji and his greatness (Premji`s father was one of the richest men in India even in 1920s) but Harish mian cannot even afford a decent 24 hour internet connection...

Hey Yasser, what does having a 24-hr internet connection have to do with speaking in praise of Azim Premji? You well and truly have gone nuts!! Is that how they teach logic in the Madarssahs you were educated in?

ps: I am 26 till June this year... so by your own estimates I- a Pakistani- am better off than most of the poverty stricken Injun freaks here. So get a life.

The story of a Qadiani dog who bit the Injuns here

Devkant bhai,

What is this? Crying out for help after getting your poverty stricken rearend whooped over and over again. All I see is... Springbreak in Benaras half naked Hindu freaks gone wild as usual with lies and accusations.

So Indians can boast about their jobs, their money (usually of someone else like Premji or this or that) but if I give them a dose of reality... I am materialistic and ``insecure``. I am just telling it how it is I am afraid. The fact that I said that my father drives a better car than Azim Premji does not mean that Azim Premji can`t afford a better car- infact that was exactly my point. It was a matter of fact statement about the ``Qadiani dog`` - as the Indians called him a few months ago. It was a statement made in response to the claim that Ahmadis like my father are heading to a deadend in the country they helped create. But ofcourse I am doing better than most 26 year old Indians and that too is a statement of fact I am afraid...

The problem with Burpinder is that when confronted with reality he/she has lost all balance. All what I have said is true... affording a Honda City lease on 30k/m salary in 2002 was not that big a deal even for a school teacher. I know it is hard for Indians to imagine this ... given that some of their highest paid executives drive a Maruti.... and boast about it day in day out... Poor Harish mian speaks of Premji and his greatness (Premji`s father was one of the richest men in India even in 1920s) but Harish mian cannot even afford a decent 24 hour internet connection...

Re:anil#77

[..Therefore, I am optimistic that India and Pakistan can jointly fight terror as the common enemy. Rather than Pakistan identifying India as the common enemy alongwith the terrorists. When this change happens, terror looses institutionalization of terror against India. A big win for India, especially if India does not loose Kashmir in the process....]

Anil, your assumption is that in the future Pakistan will behave with India based on rational self-interest. History shows that it is a wrong assumption. The Pak establishment displays rationality and self-interest in all matters, except where India is concerned. With respect to India, it is atavastic historical impulses that governs the public psyche and state policy in Pakistan.

Even today Pakistan names its missiles as Ghauri, Abdali etc, who are external Islamic warriors who defeated hindus. Mind you, they are not naming them after normal muslim heroes or famous personalities, it is specifically named after people who slaughtered hindus. Secondly Pakistan has doggedly resisted opening trade and business ties with India, unless the Kashmir issue is settled to its satisfaction, even if it hurts its own economic interests. For instance, it imports tea from African countries rather than India, even if it means paying 10 times the costs. The only collaborative project it has ever signed up with India is the IPI pipeline from Iran, but there may be a hidden agenda there to get parity with India`s control over water flowing into Pakistan via controlling the energy inflow to India`s economy.

As far as fighting terror is concerned, we all know that Pakistan is a reluctant party to that process, having been pulled into it kicking and screaming. Its institutions i.e. the army and ISI are wedded to using jihadis. It is simply a matter of controlling the jihadi volume - high volume or low volume depending on international pressure and political objectives. Even now Pak is under the US radar again for sponsoring the Taliban revival in Afghanistan. Once the US retreats from this area, as it surely will in a post Bush administration (probably a Democratic one), it will not take long for Pakistan to ratchet up again. If it can revive the Taliban even with US threats, what will stop it from revving up Kashmiri jihad, once India makes some political concessions and opens up the LOC? Pakistan is waiting to see how much India will give up on the bargaining table before it falls back to its familiary strategy of jihad.

I guess all I am saying is that India must not get intoxicated by its economic success and start to minimize the very real threat to our interests from the west. We did that in the past and paid a drastic price for it. Eternal vigilance is the price for freedom. Lets sign peace deals and friendship treaties at a government level. No problems with that. But NEVER do two things - open up borders and/or relax visas with Pakistan. Any free movement of Pakistanis into India will be a disaster both for Kashmir and for our economic resurgence. We cannot trust Pakistanis to be good neighbors. It is as simple as that.

#79 by harish_hyd on January 31, 2007 2:19am PT

harish bhai...where have u been all this while. get to unplugged and see for yourself the kind of jack ass manto is making out of him self.

rgds,

devkant.

#78 by ranjit

Whoa!! Did Yasser really make that claim? If that is indeed so, the guy`s really gone nuts. To crow about his dad being able to afford a better car than Azim Premji! Premji has always been spartan with his own needs to the extent that he owns only a mid-size car (don`t remember which) and not a luxury car, and prefers to travel by cabs when not in his hometown or abroad.

One`s got to be really insecure to boast the way Yasser mian does. The truly great ones like Premji quietly go about their business.

Re:burpy#70

[.... friend Yasser Hamdani, who seems to be going steadily insane, crowing on unplugged that even his pop, a Mercedes sub-dealer, can afford a better car than Azeem Premji (estimated personal net worth: $15 billion) and that he himself (Yasser not Premji) bought a Honda City on a schoolteacher`s salary and is now considering a 40 lakh Merc-manufactured SUV, something no IIT graduate his age in India can afford....]

Burpy, in a few more days Yasser will claim that he is considering marriage with Aishwariya Rai... :-)

Anyone can boast about themselves on an anonymous forum. Who is verifying anything? And if he is indeed doing that well in Pakistan, good for him. Let him enjoy!!

Re: # 69
Ranjit:

I do understand what you are saying. Indeed WIPRO and INFOSYS are modern day Somnaths, economic temples are indeed more important.

However, I do question your Ghaznavi analogy with modern day Islamic terrorism. Ghaznavi was in power, terrorists are being hunted down world-wide. The strategy against terrorists is to deal with them as far away from your home as you can. It is for this reason; the U.S. probably will have a presence in Iraq and Afghanistan for some time. This requires another analogy of honey sting bees that are attracted to honeycomb, and you do not disturb the honeycomb, and keep the honeycomb as far as possible.

These sting bees are damaging Pakistan more than any other nation outside Afghanistan, Sudan and Somalia. There is a faith and tremendous international pressure on current Pakistani leaders of Musharaff and Aziz that they do see it too. Otherwise alternatives have been read to them like riot act that it can be bombed back to stone age. Therefore, they are sincere to cure their country from this cancer that the terror is to the Pakistani fabric.

Individual level jealousies are common among neighbors. The problem comes when jealousies do not convert into competitive forces and become instutionalized. Institutionalization creates leverage and increases the destructive reach of terror.

Indian government is doing the right thing to ensure that Pakistan takes steps to cut insurgency. There is a hope that Manmohan Singh will prove to be another Indira Gandhi in kashmir negotiations with Pakistan. You can say that she did not formalize LOC in writing as the international border, and therefore was not effective. Somethings are better left unwritten, as long as you have advantage. Even the world community made Pakistan move back to LOC after Kargil, what better can be an example of visionary negotiation of Indira Gandhi?

Pakistan for its own security must sweep terror traffic out of its heartland and at the most confine it near afghan border. Therefore, it is in Indian interest to cooperate with Pakistan to achieve it, as Pakistan will be a very big buffer state for India with common interests and dividends derived from ensuing stability. Something, the U.S. has not yet achieved in the Middle East, India and Pakistan can achieve it for mutual benefits. I for one do not susbcribe to Hindu-Muslim divide theory, however pursuasive arguments you make. Even Shivaji was aided by Muslims, and so was Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Hari Singh Nalva could not have captured Peshawar and march into Kabul. I do not know as much about Guru Gobind Singh. Likewise Bangladesh would not have been born in modern times.

Let us see what the terms of settlement for Kashmir problem are. Seeminlgy, Pakistani leaders have achieved consensus among Pakistanis during the recent AHPC visit to Pakistan. If in India, the settlement has support of BJP then majority of Indians will support, as they know BJP has a tougher position on Kashmir than Congress.

Therefore, I am optimistic that India and Pakistan can jointly fight terror as the common enemy. Rather than Pakistan identifying India as the common enemy alongwith the terrorists. When this change happens, terror looses institutionalization of terror against India. A big win for India, especially if India does not loose Kashmir in the process.

Interesting discussion - i have a slightly different perspective, as a customer. The people i have outsourced to in madras have a lot of native intelligence and are creative (i happen to know that they are products of ordinary, private engineering colleges) and hard working - but the code they write comes with little or no documentation and where such exists, it is almost indecipherable. They also seem unfamiliar with logic diagrams and such and rely almost exclusively on verbal communication. The positives outweigh the negatives so far. Oh, and there is cost saving as well.

Tatas are `very happy` after Corus win

LONDON: And so ends the winter of our discontent on a cold January night in the one square mile of the city of London. For Ratan Tata, it ends almost a four-month-old battle to conclude the largest ever Indian overseas acquisition.

And this is truly the mother of all deals. The Tatas walked off with Corus to become the world`s fifth largest steel company with an offer of a staggering GBP 6.2 billion for Corus in fully diluted equity value, plus adjusted debt of GBP 500 mn. The enterprise value of Corus is now at an astronomical GBP 6.7 bn.

In a midnight auction held in London, Team Tata beat Brazil`s CSN with a final bid of 608 pence per share in the ninth and ultimate round of bidding. Reports are that the initial rounds were a bit slow to take off, as the opponents circled around each other, but the final round was of sealed bids, in which the Tatas trumped CSN.

CSN`s last offer was of 603 pence a share, which was topped by the Tatas with the 5 pence differential stipulated by the Takeover Panel in the UK.

Speaking to TNN right after the auction, Anwar Hasan, managing director of Tata Ltd in UK, said that the bidding was tense and at many times hectic, but finally the mood in Camp Tata is ``naturally, very happy,`` at the outcome.

The auction, slated to go on for 10 hours, actually lasted about eight-and-a-half to nine hours.

Lord Karan Billimoria, the founder of Cobra beer and chairman of the Indo-British partnership network, said in a lighter vein that this would complete a phenomenal Indian `hat-trick` in the UK this week, after Shilpa Shetty winning Celebrity Big Brother on Sunday night, the successful visit of the FM on Monday, and now the Tata win on Tuesday night.

Going forward, this should be greeted with relief within Corus as well, although no spokesperson was available for comment. The company`s management had earlier strongly recommended the Corus bid, and the future of chairman Jim Leng and Philippe Varin was tipped by insiders to be stronger in a Tata regime.

For the city which tends to be deserted by 6 pm on weekdays, and plays host to Bollywood shootings in the evenings, Tuesday night was one of unusual and hectic activity.

At offices around London, the midnight oil burned - the Takeover Panel was conducting the emailed auction, a heartbeat away from the London Stock Exchange and St Paul’s Cathedral. In the shadow of the Big Ben, in Westminster, Corus` top brass monitored the event. Camp Tata was parked in Primrose Street, just off Liverpool Street, the hub of the growing financial clout towards the east of the City. CSN and its advisors were entering the fray from Lazard`s offices in London`s West End.

#67 by anil on January 30, 2007 8:49pm PT

well good for them..I have nothing but the best wishes for the Sri Lankan dudes..don`t know what the Indian law is but India should allow them to work in India for as long as they want..

have you visited colombo..it`s a very nice place..not third world at all..

as you already know, there is a huge difference between manufacturing lingerie and IT..a manufacturing unit requires investment, smart people running it at the top, half decent middle management and almost-half-decent workers...The IT market(leave aside call center, that`s not really IT) is quite different..It doesn`t matter if you are in India or China or the US..Based upon my experience, there`s only a very small % of the population that can ever be trained to cut half decent design, architecture and code....you need this critical pool to be leads, managers and architects....without these people, it`s hard to get a project off the ground..the problem with Sri Lanka was that the people who were good enough to be in such a role were all in the US or Europe...they just didn`t have the volume that India did....

The Indian boom story.. also played a large part in India`s success..When a lot of IT workers were here in the late 90s, the very people cab driving pakis mock, there was a level of confidence in them that was contagious..they were confident in themselves and in India`s prospects..I`ve lost track of the number of people who had good careers here but chose to go back for better things..there was even an article about it in the Washington Post..

#66 by taikonaut on January 30, 2007 8:23pm PT


Wipro only wins if the American division-chief vouches for them.


Yup..that`s right..that`s how outsourcing decisions are made..no bidding...no competition..no objective criteria..no cost-benefit analysis...

the horrible hindoo^TM running the American division vouches for Wipro and Wipro gets the work...

What amazes me is not that a paki is this deluded but that the majority of pakis probably agree with this...

nomanfaisal #68: ``I would like to disagree with this. If people who are educated/talented and are in position to make some positive changes in their motherland (even if it means some hit to the `bottom line`) and they dont and instead invest in real estate,``

any business system based on patriotism will crash eventually.....it will not allow a country to be competitive......a country has to attract capital and investment and skills through competition, and not through patriotism......relying on patriotism for such attraction is an acceptance of defeat......

......in the end it is people in pakistan who are going to make the software industry grow....not people sitting outsid....the indian giant offshore companies were built by people inside india, not be indian expats......tata, premji, hakku, murthy etc. all live in india and operated from india.......

.....if expat pakistanis are investing in real-estate and not in IT, it implies that real-estate offers them a good business model and security for a profit....while IT does not......this implies that the IT business models need to change.......

.....there is a whole ministry in pakistan catering to IT....what do they get paid for?....what is their achievement?......the only thing i have heard from them is the telecom boom.....however, if you dig deep into the telecom boom, you will realize that it is nothing more than people buying cell phones......it is nokia and motorola and warid etc. making money....not pakistan.....there is not value-add within pakistan into this industry....pakistan is not making cell phones.....at best this boom is simply employing some pakistanis in the industry and making lives more comfortable for day to day individuals.....nothing else.....

......now compare this to what has happened to banking......i specialize in software in the banking industry...so i have some knowledge of both......pakistani banks have actually had a revolution, in all aspects.......from the state bank down......they are more efficient, more customer friendly, less of a risk, far more automated and thus far far more profitable....to the point that everyone from malaysia to dubai to uk is lining up to buy them......you may be surprised to find out what hot property these banks have turned into....

.....i think the reason is simple....the correct people were appointed to the correct posts....shaukut aziz is one of the top south asian bankers in the world....for his age, perhaps the top.....ishrat hussain fixed state bank and automated it.......they brought in other bankers to lead the remaining banks........i gave a seminiar on risk and compliance in pakistan........within a notice of 24 hours, the hall was full, with bankers of all levels.......on the other hand, i presented at a software conference.........hardly anyone was there, even though it was advertised for weeks, with prominent indians speaking also.......

get the right people in the right positions....give them the freedom to execute and see what happens......i am not sure how someone with a feudal background and a degree in political science can run an IT ministry........

Except for the jihadist threat and the khaki shadows looming exclusively all over Pakistan, there is little difference between the two countries in terms of business climate, individual smarts, etc. Therefore, it is not too difficult to put the finger on the underlying cause of what ails the BPO industry in that country. The author has instead resorted to platitudes and to being wishy-washy and tried to cover up with euphemisms.

Re: # 36

Not to mention... (from Romair`s own post):
simiilarly, trg is nothing but the effort of one patriotic individual, zia chishti, who has established something in pakistan, against all odds.......technically speaking though, his company isn`t really a pakistani company....it has a very complicated set-up, spreading from us to bermuda(?), phillipines and pakistan.....if i understood his set-up correctly and remember correctly, there are actually only 9 employees who are officially part of trg pakistan.....

I am all for a prosperous Pakistan that doesn`t have the time or inclination to chase after Kashmir, but a little realism would help. This sort of hollow chest thumping makes you sound naive at best and disingenuous at worst. Not only did TCS make over a billion in the quarter gone by, it also crossed $250 million in profits for the first time. Infosys took 23 years to cross a billion dollars in revenue, but is going to end the FY 2006-07 at around $3.2 billion (a threefold increase in 2 years).

This is not rubbing in the face of the Pakis or anything of that sort, it`s a reminder of how much the industry is growing- its just the tip of the iceberg (TCS and Infy are largely IT services, the BPO market is much bigger- and both have not even come close to reaching their peak). It really amuses me to see guys like Romair trumpeting the virtues of the great behemoth TRG (with all of 9 pakistani employees) or friend Yasser Hamdani, who seems to be going steadily insane, crowing on unplugged that even his pop, a Mercedes sub-dealer, can afford a better car than Azeem Premji (estimated personal net worth: $15 billion) and that he himself (Yasser not Premji) bought a Honda City on a schoolteacher`s salary and is now considering a 40 lakh Merc-manufactured SUV, something no IIT graduate his age in India can afford (he is right in that- for a 30 year old BE working in India, I`d say even a Honda City would be a big investment).

Hamidm`s ``horrible hindoo`` posts are funny because you can see that he`s a nice guy just having some fun. But when supposedly ``serious`` interactors come up with such drivel, there`s little one can do but shake the head (sideways if you will) and sigh. Or snigger.

Re:anil#67

[....Pakistan needs to see business, and less emotions in its relationship with India....]

Anil, it will be fascinating to observe the geo-strategic impact of India`s growing economic juggernaut, not just in IT but in all sectors. As India`s success becomes unstoppable, how is Pakistan going to react? The hope is that Pakistan will reconcile itself to this situation, emulate India as much as it can and try to get ``spillover`` business.

However, the possibility also exists that Pakistan may get consumed by insane levels of jealousy and anger at Indian success. Given the zero sum nature of Pakistani mindset, they may view India`s success as a calamity and try their level best to sabotage India`s success. Terror attacks have already been tried out in Bangalore. Several prominent Pakistanis have hinted publicly at such a scenario. A couple of high profile attacks, especially on one of the IT business houses in Bangalore or Hyderabad, could severely damage India`s future prospects. Foreign investors and US companies do not like instability and risk.

The challenge to the Indian government is that any softening of relations with Pakistan will mean relaxation of visa controls. Indeed there have already been anouncements that the two countries will liberalize the visa regime. While that may lead to a positive effect, it could also provide a route for jihadis to get into India and wreck our booming economy. On the other hand, if India does not soften relations with Pakistan, it is also bad in the sense that it causes tensions to escalate, more jihadi actions at the border and overall geo-strategic instability due to nuclear standoffs. Therefore, either way, we Indians can get screwed - good relations leading to easy visas and possibly more terror in our IT hubs versus bad relations leading to more terror on the border leading to geo-strategic risk.

Therefore, the best solution for India would be to keep things cool with Pakistan but not let it go to the other extreme of pappi-jhappis. Lets not forget that Pakistanis still worship Ghaznavi who destroyed our Somnath temple, just like they will worship anyone today who destroys the modern day equivalent of Somnath - Wipro and Infosys.

Re: # 64
Bulleya,

I totally respect your position that business and Patriotism should not be mixed. If I am not wrong, our Ex PM Moeen Qureshi and our current PM Shaukat Aziz is of the same opinion. They do not invest in Pakistan at all.

I would like to disagree with this. If people who are educated/talented and are in position to make some positive changes in their motherland (even if it means some hit to the `bottom line`) and they dont and instead invest in real estate, than what does patriosim mean to them? Surely patriotism is more than getting teary when you hear national anthem. I dont mean to sound emotional. I think as few interactors pointed out, few econmies in the world are because of the strong lobbying by the ex-pats in north america.

Kind regards
Noman

Re: # 65

Arjun:

John Keells Computer Services is the company that I dealt about a couple of years ago, just before the Tsunami. John Keells is like Tata Group of Sri Lanka, the largest public limited company on Colombo Stock Exchange. The entire island produces about 1,000 engineering graduates each year, therefore, island based growth is limited, hence their strategy. Another company I had some dealings produces 30% of Victoria`s Secret langerie. They are actuely aware the sooner or later Victoria`s Secret will enter Indian market, and their production will disappear. These guys are quite proactive and sooner rather than later are setting up plants in India, and also trying to gain advantage through SAFTA, the free-trade agreement with India.

Sri Lankan are quite astute, and acutely aware that they have to faster on their feet, or gain advantage through SAFTA etc. Therefore, if SAFTA allows the factory in Sri Lanka to produce the langerie for Indian markets. The executives I dealt are highly professional, and have no problem to give a sob story of David Sri Lanka vs Goliath India to American corporations when this will work. After all I remember when Sri Lanka did have a cricket team with test status, and now they do beat India quite easily. Sri Lanka`s tea industry is again more efficient than India`s. The business wins when there is cold business professionalism than emotionalism. Pakistan needs to see business, and less emotions in its relationship with India. Everyone benefits.

---

#63 by bulleya on January 30, 2007 4:50pm PT
...yes, these months were quite interesting.....pakistan has had a boom in two areas: banking and telecom (and real estate and stock market, but those are a bit different).....

---

That`s correct!

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#63 by bulleya on January 30, 2007 4:50pm PT
.......for some reason, software development never took off......i think the reason is the incorrect business model that i mentioned earlier........pakistan should discard off-shore development now......it is a lost field......why would citibank give a contract to an unknown pakistani company, when it can give it to wipro?.......

---

That`s totally wrong. Without naming names, one of the major US company had bad experience with an Indi-company. On the insistence of their division-chief (of Pak origin) they sent the same contract to Pakistan. The result of $million business for Pak, and the same company sent more work from other divisions.

As long as Pakistani Americans are buried deep in Islamism, Pakistani companies will suffer. Wipro only wins if the American division-chief vouches for them. The sheer numbers of pro-West Indian-Americans win business for Wipro and co.

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#63 by bulleya on January 30, 2007 4:50pm PT
.......the correct model is to concentrate on the domestic market and on indian (and chinese etc.) spillover....

---

Domestic market in Desi countries (both Indi and Pak) is geared towards European-style in-house development instead of US-UK style outsourcing. Almost all the local CIOs (or equivalent) want to hire people and keep them under their thumb. Unfortunately the top IT-talent is not willing to suffer the baboo-style work environment.

The second issue with local market (or Indi-Cheeni market) is the margin. It becomes very hard for local companies to bid at rock bottom prices and still retain the talent pool.

How would you feel if you are suddenly moved from working at a high-paying State of Maryland project to a 1/20th pay while working at State of Sindh project? I bet the next day you will get PIA ticket out of the country.

The same is true with Indi or Cheeni market. Their own labor is so cheep, that Paks have hard time bidding for such projects.

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#63 by bulleya on January 30, 2007 4:50pm PT
....i have come up with a solution to this, which i am presenting to an indian company with whom i may be doing some contracts soon.......let`s see how it goes......

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Best wishes!

#59 by anil on January 30, 2007 4:03pm PT


They do not mention insurgency in Sri Lanka, instead show that Colombo is closer to Bangalore than Mumbai. They set up an operation in Bangalore and get work done in Bangalore and Colombo.
Each churn in employee turnover in Indian IT industry`s turnover, is an opportunity for this Sri Lankan company. As the staff there is more stable.


That`s been tried before but it the results weren`t evident because Sri Lanka doesn`t have the critical mass of talent. Look up MBT Lanka. MBT brought a bunch of people from Sri Lanka to India to train them. The expectation was that the trainees would go back and do projects in Colombo..But most trainees completed their training, took in a little work experience and took the next flight to the US or Europe. Of course, this was in the late 90s. Of the people who hightailed it out of Colombo, there`s probably enough who want to go back and work in Sri Lanka...

nomanfaisal #62: ``One way to counter the impact of bad press that Pakistan suffers from, is to encourege people like Romair to invest in the country or outsource some of the back office work so more work force is trained.``

......i have a strong belief in something: while patriotism is good, business should not be run on the basis of patriotism......that is a recipe for long term disaster......pakistan should not rely on patriotism to establish a software industry.....it should rely on competitiveness alone........nothing else.....that is the only stable business model....

.....in my recent trip, i noticed that pakistan has a small but vibrant private sector.....if one enters into this private sector, it basically seems like one is in the first world......this is specifically true in banking, software, telecom etc.....the discusions are the same as usa, the qualifications are the same, the lifestyle is the same, the approach to problem solving is the same, etc....it was quite refreshing......

....the one problem is that the scalability, specifically in software, is quite low........the other problem is that while individuals in this private sector are very highly paid (extremely highly paid adjusted for cost of living - one person in IT was being paid $US 250,000/yr in pakistan!), they seem to have little influence over public policy.......the authority in pakistan is still with the army and the civil service and the landlord etc......hi-tech entreprenuers are just a decoration piece......

........there is another interesting phenomenon i noticed......and this applies to lack of business model also.......go to any meeting of pakistani IT entrepreneurs in north america, and ask the following question: ``how many people have invested in IT in pakistan?``........very few will raise their hands..........then ask this question....``how many have invested in land and plots and houses?``......nearly everyone will raise their hand.......

why is that? why are rich pakistani IT folks willing to buy a plot in defence, but unwilling to put up a small IT shop in Lahore, when in fact they have expertise in the later, and the costs of a plot and IT shop are the same.......come to think of it, i have a piece of land in pakistan, but no investment in IT..........(that is not to say that i am rich, but just giving an example).........

Anil #59: ``In my opinion you got it right, and your six months seem to have been well spent....``

...yes, these months were quite interesting.....pakistan has had a boom in two areas: banking and telecom (and real estate and stock market, but those are a bit different).....there are over thirty million cell phone in pakistan now......it took the govt. owned telephone company 50 years to get 5 million landline connections.....a cell phone company was able to get that many in about a year......pakistan sold three licenses to three foreign cell phone companies for $290 million/year.......they got a deal of a lifetime and are raking it in......a dubai based company bought 26% controlling stake in ptcl for around $2.5 billion(?)........

......banking is in an unprecedented boom.......all records are being broken in all categories.....there is only one nationalised bank left (two if you count womens` bank)......all other are private, and have huge CAGRs.........higher than indian software companies even......pakistan govt. has stopped giving out new banking licenses.....so now foreign banks trying to break in are buying pakistani banks at huge profits for the local banks......banks are also automating very rapidly.....according to economist shahid javed burki, pakistani banks are ahead of indian banks in terms of use of techonology etc......

.......for some reason, software development never took off......i think the reason is the incorrect business model that i mentioned earlier........pakistan should discard off-shore development now......it is a lost field......why would citibank give a contract to an unknown pakistani company, when it can give it to wipro?.......

.......the correct model is to concentrate on the domestic market and on indian (and chinese etc.) spillover....there are so many domestic contracts that remain unfilled due to unavailibility of software skills.......the pakistani finance industry has a market for IT of over $200 million......much of it unfilled.....i met with the CIO of one of the five largest pakstani banks.......he had left a job in switzerland to join the bank......they had purchased a multi-milliion software package......this was over one year ago, and they still cannot get it implemented due to lack of resources.......foreign resources charge too much and no local ones available......

........this, itself, is a good sized market for indian software companies....they are actually partnering with local pakistani software companies to get into this......the pakistan govt. does not allow them to open offices in pakistan........however, their partnerships have been disapppointing as the local software companies are far too small and immature.......

.......indian companies would be more than happy to roll spillover business to pakistan.....all the ceos of big indian software companies have flown into pakistan, for this....it is much easier for an indian ceo to go from delhi to lahore than from delhi to budapest or beijing......not to mention the fact that he/she would be much more comfortable in lahore than in budapest......pakistani companies are also more than eager to get this going, as they are desparate for any kind of software contracts.......

however, this hasn`t materialized, due to political problems, visa constraints, etc. etc.....i have come up with a solution to this, which i am presenting to an indian company with whom i may be doing some contracts soon.......let`s see how it goes......

Thank you everyone!

Just want to answer few questions.

1. I am not trying to compare Pakistan with India. Because frankly there is no comparison. The aim of the article was to just try to list the basic problems in my opinion which are making this whole BPO world hard to grow in Pakistan.

2. Country risk is a big factor, but my PoV is this. Even if some big company wants to outsource, (it is a big if) we dont have the trained resource or skill set to deliver the service.

3. I also feel that if companies in Pakistan are following the global standards like COPC, Six Sigma in the BPO industry, more companies from North America and UK will outsource even if we are suffering from bad press.

4. I know of one Pakistani company which is in the business of writing the software the people in the call centers use, so basically we`ve moved up the value chain! The URL is www.zrg.com

5. One way to counter the impact of bad press that Pakistan suffers from, is to encourege people like Romair to invest in the country or outsource some of the back office work so more work force is trained.

6 The reason I think BPO is what we should focus on, as oppose to call center because only that kind of work can make all those hundreds of thousands of B. Com students get job and support the families.

Regards
Noman

PS: Salim Chauhan
I think most men and women are better equipped to work for less critical work than in-bound customer support.

Norman,
I am sure that you have witnessed the pleasant and soothing words uttered by Paki females as they altercate their way on Chowk - especially UP. Do you seriously believe that these Paki females will be able to provide customer service to western, especially impatient and nasty Americans?

#58, Arjun2 {``Pakis are worse at English... ``}

Arjun,
All you have to do is to read the various posts of certain notorious Pakis.
That is becows vee do not having Angraizee type madrassa in Poonzab. Also, vee do not have brad to eet becows vee are eetang chawwal in sakool.

Re: # 32

Romair:

In my opinion you got it right, and your six months seem to have been well spent. I have always maintained this strategy of India being the magnet. I have seen presentations of Sri Lankan companies, presenting Colombo as one corner on the rectangle Bangalore, Chennai, and Trivandrum. They do not mention insurgency in Sri Lanka, instead show that Colombo is closer to Bangalore than Mumbai. They set up an operation in Bangalore and get work done in Bangalore and Colombo.

Each churn in employee turnover in Indian IT industry`s turnover, is an opportunity for this Sri Lankan company. As the staff there is more stable. It costs about 6 mos 9 mos of loaded cost to bring a person to be revenue producing. If the person moves to another company in less than 2 or 3 years, the investment is left unrealized. Thus if, this churn can be eliminated of minimized, there is more than 10% business can flow outward from India to its neighbors.

Pakis are worse at English...

Asians graduate in Australia despite bad English

Of the students surveyed, those from South Korea fared the worst with 55.5 percent not meeting the required English standard.

They were followed by: Thailand (50.9), Nepal (47.9), Taiwan (47.4), China (43.2), Hong Kong (42.9), Bangladesh (42.0), Japan (36.8), Vietnam (32.9), Indonesia (32.0), Sri Lanka (25.1), Pakistan (24.8), Malaysia (23.5), Singapore (17.8) and India (17.3).

Re: # 16

`` India is uniquely positioned to support BPO because of some important factors:

1. Indian history of providing office services to the West since 1650s. ``

I never knew.

`` 2. Indian-American community`s placement in America`s corporate structure ``

Indian-Americans do not work in every company that decide to outsource to India. Heck some of us of Indian origin at a prior company opposed a decision to open a SW development in Bangalore in 1998. We thought it was a bad idea. We were overruled by top management.

`` India`s BPO sector is unique, just like China`s manufacturing sector. No matter how hard India tries, it can never compete with Chinese factory output. The same thing is true for Pakistan. We cannot compete with India in BPO sector. Kawwa Chalaa Huns ki chaal .......... ``

In the long run India can comepte with China. India will have an industrial base at least one third that of China. It takes a while to roll out the physical infrastructure.

Re: # 50

Arjun,

My context: IT in Pakistan.

In general, whether you want to start small or big depends on the market niche and capital constraints. There is room for everyone in IT. But you got to ``see`` the room. Going for the entire enchilada may not be a good idea.

Re: # 29

Hamidm Sahib:

You are giving examples of established companies and markets, and M&A models of successful investment bankers in these areas. Mittal Steel became world`s number one, and Laxmi Mittal the richest Indian, doing just that. In each case the key is market share and or other assets - production plants, technology etc.

``Roll-up`` is an acquisition model for small and emerging companies in growing or mature markets. There are examples right in your neighborhood, in the mid west, in two industries waste management, and ambulance services; and of a couple of Indians who tried to do in IT services and printed circuit board manufacturing. I had considered it myself with a group of friends in Silicon Valley in late 90s with small IT companies that had sprung up during the IT boom. I will have to describe you in detail why such consolidation fails to produce shareholder value after merger. There are issues related to popele, systems, and organization simply too much for small companies being acquired. In such organiztions most of the business is generated by one or two entreprenuers. Both system and organization can fall when these key guys make exit. There is so much duplication of functions, system and organization, if you discount these dupplications out and then look at the core that one is buying there is limited value. Build v Acquisition tilts heavily in favor of building in the growing markets than acquiring. Zia Chisti seems to have convinced high rollers to bank roll him, that is good for him and his team.

#52 by chaltahai on January 30, 2007 11:19am PT


i can train 5 monkeys to fill out applications and write code


maybe you can train monkeys to do your type of work but even a majority of humans can`t be trained to cut half decent code...


product companies will always have better multiples on valuations than service companies on comparable revs and net incomes.


And where did I dispute that...that`s exactly what I mean by moving up the value chain..

1. Answer customer care calls and use software written in peoplesoft(for e.g.)
2. Write software using peoplesoft
3. Write a product to replace peoplesoft...

#51 by chaltahai on January 30, 2007 11:13am PT


going from voice to transaction processng is not moving up the value chain


Huh? How do the people working in call centers help customers? They use software, most of it custom built or ``assembled``..IF you can get into the business of writing the software the people in the call centers use, you`ve moved up the value chain...

Read up on Wipro`s buyout of AMS` enerygy arm..

Re: # 50: Arjun, you are wrong..people are fungible..patents are not. i can train 5 monkeys to fill out applications and write code..product companies will always have better multiples on valuations than service companies on comparable revs and net incomes. IP rules!!!!! Indian companies that code for American companies will never be as good until they innovate. Many are doing it..it is happening. IFLEX is one of many..to give you some sense of global spectrum. But they are few and far between.

Re: # 48: Arjun, do you know what moving up he value chain means? going from voice to transaction processng is not moving up the value chain..automating processes with software is not the answer

From processing mortage applications to issuing the mortages is moving up the value chain. it is about vertically integrating the process not horizontally combining two back office functions, IT & BPO.

#40 by GT on January 30, 2007 10:26am PT


Companies have to innovate (organize) fast and keep ahead of competitors. Small workforces are the way to go (filling up large office spaces is not the way out as someone suggested earlier).


have you seen how many people google is trying to hire? innovation can only get you so far...if google really wants to sink their teeth into everything that can be searched for and advertised, it needs a large workforce...

Re: # 47: be that as it may...we saw FII flows into Pak. The companies in the index are growing the same as last year, why didn`t it perform? Iwill tell you why..other markets and lack of bomb blasts during muharram there

#46 by chaltahai on January 30, 2007 11:03am PT


what`re you talking about? Do you even understand the market?

At the lower end of the chain are the people who take calls and use some software to help the customer..then come the testers who test the software before it is deployed...then the developers who build it..then the people who come up with the ideas of what to build...

#41 by chaltahai on January 30, 2007 10:34am PT


KSE was one of the highflyers in 2005..in 2006 it lost out to Brazilian, egyptian and Indian exchangesin terms of capitla flows because of country risk once again caught up with fundamentals


The KSE didn`t lose out..it was never in the game...it was/is a shell game..it`s basically an index that can move a few thousand points just by a relatively small amount of buying in about 5 stocks..

can you think of one KSE company you`d want to invest in..like an equivalent of infosys..a company with string fundamentals and good growth prospects...

Re: # 44: Arjun, if I hear another Indian twit tell me about moving up the value chain..I am going to personally throw the out the window. Moving from back office to middle office is not moving up the value chain..the day an Indian bank buys a western bank of any size..then it will be moving up the value chain.

#43 by bongdongs on January 30, 2007 10:53am PT


Mode 4: Temporary Movement: Represents services that are sold or delivered through the presence of the service provider temporarily in the foreign market e.g. the annual salaries of all H-1, L-1 and B-1 Pakistani IT workers in the USA.


What`s this!!! Pakis want to move down in life?!! They want to go from being illegal immigrant cab drivers to H1 visas?? surely that`s beneath their dignity, as they keep telling Indians...

#39 by chaltahai on January 30, 2007 9:56am PT


I have been doing BPO investments for over 7 yrs.


High attrition isn`t something you can get away from..It`s the nature of the job..Even in the US, the attrition rate for call centers is 40%..Even been to a US customer care center facility...they have all sorts of motivational shit..almost every chutiya has some award or another...the people who work there aren`t the brightest bulbs in the world..the ones that are good quickly move on to supervisory positions..

The right way to fight attrition is to move up the value chain..If the pakis do manage to get into the customer care field, they`ll be using software written in India to do whatever it is they`re going to do for the customer...

Noman Faisal pasted a good link about Pakistan`s IT exports:

http://www.pseb.org.pk/page.php?pid=2

From this link see this part:

The following table describes the four WTO modes for export-in-services recognition:

Mode 1: Cross Border: Represents services that are sold by the exporting country to the importing country, with only the service crossing the border e.g. architectural drawings sent by courier, consultant report sent by email, call center support provided over the Internet, or software programs sent over the Internet.

Mode 2: Consumption Abroad: Represents services sold in the exporting country to foreigners or foreign-owned entities in the exporting country itself e.g. IT services sold to the World Bank, the USA embassy or to one of the 700 multinational companies operating in Pakistan.

Mode 3: Commercial Presence Abroad: Represents the revenue of national firms established abroad, selling services in a foreign market.

Mode 4: Temporary Movement: Represents services that are sold or delivered through the presence of the service provider temporarily in the foreign market e.g. the annual salaries of all H-1, L-1 and B-1 Pakistani IT workers in the USA.

---

This leads me to a few questions I have had about how NASSCOM computes Indian IT and ITeS exports, I would guess the following, let me know if my logic is correct:

1) For a large company such as Infosys or TCS it would come under Mode 1 and Mode 3. For mode 1 it is the ``offshore`` part of their revenue. The ``onshore`` part would come come under Mode 3 as Infosys employees in the US are paid by Infosys (US) i.e. by the US subsidary of an Indian company.

2) Exports by Indian subsidaries of multinational companies would also Mode 1 as exports are by IBM India Limited, i.e. an Indian company (which just happens to be owned by a foreign company)

3) In case of Indian nationals working for foreign companies under an H-1, L-1 (or similar visa) (Mode 4) such revenue cannot be counted by NASSCOM as foreign companies (oerating abroad) are under no obligation to report such data to Indian government entities and I doubt they would voluntarily report to a trade group like NASSCOM. Or does NASSCOM actively try to obtain or estimate such data?

4) About mode 2, Would IT services sold by say, TCS to Hyundai in India count under Mode 2? I would doubt it, as almost all foreign companies in India operate as an India entity i.e. Hyundai operates as Hyundai Motor`s India Limited, hence it would be a domestic transaction. Can someone provide examples for a Mode 2 transaction?

Re: # 41

Fair enough. Just replace ``profit maximization`` with ``expected profit maximization`` subject to the relevant constraints. Are we now in sync?

Re: # 40: GT bhaisahib, it is said that ``economists have an uncanny ability to predict the past. `` I don;t quite agree that profit will alone drive investment in a global environment. As a fund manager, I want to diversify my risk across asset classes and geographies. I will choose investment opportunities that give me an opportunity to protect my principal and make an uptick in equity that will allow me to give the returns back to the shareholders and mysel getting a piece. But this is not the driver alone..I will also take into account that value that can be created is devoid of any risk (or limited risk). If my capital investment is not safe then I can forget about the upside..this is true for private equity as well as public investments..KSE was one of the highflyers in 2005..in 2006 it lost out to Brazilian, egyptian and Indian exchangesin terms of capitla flows because of country risk once again caught up with fundamentals

(Long Post)

I would like explain a bit more in detail one of the problems mentioned by the author. The author notes that once an employee is trained she/he leaves for greener pastures. This is a classic problem in economics. The problem was first highlighted by the Nobel Prize winning economic historian Fogel (Chicago). According to Fogel`s data, slaves in the south had better health and nutrition levels than the free white farm laborers. Fogel`s explanation of this is as follows:

(a) Healthy workers increase farm productivity.

(b) Workers are poor to start with. Hence if the owner were to require better productivity she would have to feed the worker for a period of time. Or alternately pay wages above productivity over a period of time.

(c) Once the worker is well fed, the owner`s investment can be reclaimed by paying the worker less than her productivity.

(d) However, once the worker is well fed competitors can lure away the worker by paying wages equal to productivity. Foreseeing this, the owner does not invest in health to start with. Since slaves cannot leave the owner, such problems do not arise for slaves.

A lot of interactors are suggesting here that the worker be fed (in our case educated) by the government as in Indian IITs. I oppose this. The government educates a few using taxpayers money (even a beggar pays sales tax for his beedis). The benifit goes to the educated few and the owner!

The way out is innovation. Companies have to innovate (organize) fast and keep ahead of competitors. Small workforces are the way to go (filling up large office spaces is not the way out as someone suggested earlier). Furthermore, this has to be complemented with profit sharing.

Finally, on a slightly different note, huge investments should be shunned. So looking abroad for capital is NO NO. A small efficient and fast growing company running in a country like Pakistan (with all of arjun`s jihadis) will attract foreign capital whether you want it or not. The focus should not be size or scale .... the focus should be on the rate of profit. The focus should not be on the size or quality of buildings, the brand of cars that executives drive or the brand of clothes that their executives wear .... the focus should be on the rate of profit. Who cares about how much Pakistan is exporting or importing in aggregate. The focus should be on how should Pakistani companies (small or big) optimize profits in the market (domestic or foreign).

Re: # 38: arjun, the sun shines even on a dog`s ass once in a while....he has a valid point re: high atrition. I have been doing BPO investments for over 7 yrs. I can tell you that India is a watershed, which is good for India....skills shortage means that you can siphon off lower end work to places like Pakistan etc.

In US BPO operations the skill shortage is exponentionally greater than in Indian ones...that`s why the arbitrage still works.

I am not still not convinced that the issues are just the ones highlighted by the author, Country Risk is the biggest problem when it comes to companies looking to outsoruce to India. If pakistan was to change it`s name as a start to west India..it would start seeing organic flows

#34 by chaltahai on January 30, 2007 9:32am PT


Excellent last point, Bulleya sahib.


Dude...capt clueless is full of it...a few years ago, in his previous avtar, he was telling us that what an IT company needed to work was afghan looks and paki leadership skills..

How quickly pakis forget the power of google

Here are some selected quotes from capt clueless..

At the same time, a lot of South Indians don`t seem to have very good execution skills.

The ideal South Asian CEO would have a South Indian mind, a Sikh sense of humor, Afghani looks and Pakistani leadership skills (haven`t met enough Indians in IT from other parts of India to form any opinion about them yet).

Re: # 36

TRG operates as a fund..more of an LP structure...not ike an operating company. their model is predicated on buyouts and strategic investments with little organic growth. for each acquisition they get/raise money from the likes of AIG and other funds. the investor hold most of the equity..people need ot get tis through their thick heads. comparing TRG to an Indian BPO company is erroneous. If you want to compare TRG to something, try Quattro. It is an entity formed by Raman roy and the erstwhile mgmt of spectramind

#32 by bulleya on January 30, 2007 9:09am PT


since that is the only company in pakistan that is at the world level in terms of scale and revenues


185 million$/yr is at world level in your alternate universe...TCS had a quarterly revenue of 1 billion $..

besides, what part of TRG`s 185 million$/yr comes from the land of the pure? simpel minds would like to know....

Re: # 32 Bulleya bhai sa`ab

Couldn`t lack of a mirror be one more possible reason worthy of addition into your list?

Re: # 32

Excellent last point, Bulleya sahib. If you look at BPO, as an industry it is one of the most transient one where the cost of moving operations with the low cost of telecom and other infrastructure is basically borne by the vendor (priced in). So for WNS or spectramnd to move operations to Pakistan to get any benefit on labor arbitrage is a viable strategic option.

The question is still simple..if Indian companies are buying/setting up assets in Philippines, malaysia, thailand etc..why not pakistan? I would argue that it is much easier for Indian companies (culturally) to set up somethin there than in kuala Lumpur..maybe there is more ot country risk

Re: # 26 Arjun

My dear Arjun you are plain ignorant. You just don`t understand that if our Paki friends are lagging behind BPO and code-cooliegiri, it`s by design. There is a divine plan behind it, a grand scheme of Allah and his prophet pbuh. Allah has made Pakis for greater things, and while you may hee-haw wagging your head sideways, our Paki friends will be soon:


1) extracting energy from Djinns, Peris, assorted vamps, Dracula and Tarzan. They will also exploit the great numerological power of combined sooras of Koran pbuh and all hadith/ahadith pbuh. So they are going to thrash your little pigmy asses with all that energy at their disposal.

2) With the chinese companies outsourcing the manufacture of plastic screws of chu-chu toys to factories in Rawalpindi, they are soon going to rule the roost in manufacturing sector.

3) Americans are going to pay thru their nose, because, with Saddam gone, where is the raison d`etre for the war on terror? So, Amreekans are totally dependent on assured supply of terrorists from Pakistan.

anil/hamidm2 mian noman:.......i spent six months last year, in pakistan, without pay, trying to figure all this out......i.e. what is going on in the pakistan IT and IT-enabled industries.....that is time i had disappeared from chowk.....i basically met the who`s who of pakistan`s software industry.......i sat down with the ceo of a bank and we went through the details of the prospectus and filings of trg........since that is the only company in pakistan that is at the world level in terms of scale and revenues etc.......

pakistan`s software industry is a bare fraction of where it should be....it isn`t even an industry........the largest off-shore dev company is barely 350 employees.....the largest domestic company is in the range of 500+......compare this to tata, which is reaching 100,000........

without getting into the details, i reached the following conclusions (plus a lot more):

1. lack of a business model.....pakistan is trying to copy india, i.e. off-shore development....this is a lost game....india has huge first-mover advantage.....

2. lack of skills......this is specially true for middle and upper mgmt and technical skills...they are non-existent.......i was surprised to find out that the salaries made by upper mgmt, almost compare dollar to dollar with those in canada......that is how much of a shortage of skills there happens to be....

3. lack of entrepreneurs....in the end, it is singular entrepreneurs that will establish everything.....i am not sure where the indian software industry would have been had there been no mr. tata (or kohli), premji, narayan and the guy from satyam.......

simiilarly, trg is nothing but the effort of one patriotic individual, zia chishti, who has established something in pakistan, against all odds.......technically speaking though, his company isn`t really a pakistani company....it has a very complicated set-up, spreading from us to bermuda(?), phillipines and pakistan.....if i understood his set-up correctly and remember correctly, there are actually only 9 employees who are officially part of trg pakistan.....

.....after thinking all this through, i have reached one conclusion: the easiest and best path for growth of this industry in pakistan is to get the spill-over business from india.....ironically, india now has one of the largest skills shortages in the world.....indian companies have huge turnovers, and employee base of very few years of experience.....they are rolling of things to china and hungary and what not......

this is what pakistani companies should be targeting.......if we assume, indian companies have a 5-10% spillover which they need to send off to other countires, that would be enough to put pakistan at the 500 million to 1 billion revenue range, from its current range of 100 million........

interesting article. i would like the author to comment on the women in workforce and its impact from the talent side. in india, there is/was some stigma attached to working for a bpo, esp for night shift. parents were/are worried that a middle-class educated girl (the kind the bpo wants to employ) may not get the right rishtas. OTOH these girls make some of the best employees and kinda form the core-teams of bpo operations. BPO companies focus to ensure safe enviroment for these workers.

is this a factor in success or difficulty of operations for pakistani bpos?

#27 by taikonaut on January 30, 2007 8:24am PT


Paki-Americans are busy lobbying for Kashmir banega Pakiland...That paki dude in the New Hampshire state legislature..did he focus his energies on more business for pakiland? nope...it was all about getting meaningless resolutions passed on Kashmir...

jihad over java...yup..that`s the key pakis...

Re: # 19

anil mian,

..... i disagree on your take on investment companies ...... i don`t know about the it industry, but they have a stellar track record in buying distressed companies, consolidating, spinning off, merging, turning them around and then selling them for huge profits .......... they attract some of the best management talent and groups like silver lake, the carlyle group, blackstone, kkr, ripplewood and others raised more than $200B last year ........ silver lake bought ugs (the engineering software firm) for 2b less than two years ago and is selling it to siemens for 3.5b - not a bad return ! ..... so trg might be on to something even though pakistan is not the best place to invest - mainly for two reasons: political instability and the acute shortage of properly trained/educated resources - madrassa diplomas and cerificates in the art of blowing things up does not count even if zeemax believes it ....

---

Re: # 26 by arjun2 on January 30, 2007 8:05am PT
Call me a shudra, call me a paki...I don`t really care..I don`t give other people the power to offend me...

---

Well do you think we Pakistanis would give rats @r$$ as to what an Indie-lowlife is doing just to offend us?

Bablu Mian! Use the same standard for others that you want to use for yourself! Kapeesh!

Your raves and rants against Pakistan are $imply $tupid. I am glad I know so many Indian colleagues who are simply marvelous as people, and great intellectuals who appreciate Pakistan and Pakistaniat.

So you pseudo-patriots from both sides of the border! it is time to quit maligning the other side. We both have our good things and some not-so good things. Why to focus only on the not-so good things.

It is time to offer an apology from our side if any Indie got offended.

Peace,

---

Re: # 18 by zeemax on January 29, 2007 11:38pm PT
Pakistan never focused on the lowly BPO as a matter of industrial policy.

---

Brother zeemax, Pak-government (or Indi, or Cheeni governments) is on the receiving end of a complex process called ``outsourcing``. As the name suggests that the process starts when some rich entity located in America ``sources`` or ``contracts`` out some of their work to a cheaper and reasonably good company ``located`` ``out of direct control``. That company can be in America or outside: it doesn`t matter.

Let me restate that the outsourcing process starts from the ``rich entity`` willing to farm out their less than desired work. So there must be some ``trustworthy`` person(s) affiliated with that ``rich entity`` who is willing to put their respect, and name on the line in order to make a buck and take the work to their home country.

Here are the quick comparisons!

For BPOs, Indian techies in America made it happen for India.
For manufacturing, the Chinese-American entrepreneurs made it happen for China.
For IT field in general, Irish-Americans took $billion business to Ireland way back in 1975.

Similarly, for any outsourcing, American-Pakistanis must start the process to make it happen for Pakistan.

Americans do not care about demo-Krazy in India, or Kommie-kermits of China, or the exploding bombs in Belfast. As long as you guarantee that the job would get done, you get the contract.

If you don`t have your strong advocates in America, you can do whatever as a government of a poor country, you won`t get a diddly squat from America.

Bottom line is that Pakistani Americans should get out of Arab anarchists` behinds and start campaigning for outsourcing to Pakistan in any field possible. Look around and see where Uncle Sam needs your services, and then set up the institutions to provide those service. That`s all.

You tell Pak government that Americans are willing to send $billion for ABC service, and you would see the laws and conditions in Pakistan change the next day.

Indie-land used to be commie land. Indi-Americans showed the $$ and see how quickly the laws changed in that commie-land.

Cheeni-land used to be even worse commie-land. Cheeni-Americans showed the $$, and see how quickly the laws changed in China.

Irish-land loved to do the bomb blasts all over UK. When Irish-Americans showed the $$, then see how quickly IRA made sure nothing bad happens to the American investors.

Hope these examples from Indi-land, Cheeni-land, and IRA-land help you understand the concept of ``out`` and ``sourcing``.

#25 by taikonaut on January 30, 2007 7:59am PT


Still the question for you is! Would you be OK that people started calling you Shudra Arjun?


Call me a shudra, call me a paki...I don`t really care..I don`t give other people the power to offend me...

---

Re: # 17 by arjun2 on January 29, 2007 9:54pm PT
Your expertise is in BPO...Blowing up People Outsourcing...The arab islamofascists have outsourced jihad to you..in that, you`re world leaders..


Bottom line: You tried as hard as you could to get into real IT, as opposed to call center work...and you are failures at that...It ain`t as simple as ``if those hindoos can do it, surely we genetically superior pakis can do it in spades``...but the 72 million/yr figure should already tell you that...

---

Arjun Bhai, you have a point there. Unfortunately there are many Arab-slave Mullahtics ready to blow up the future of Pakistan.

However painting the whole Pakistan as bad, is simply not fair. I mean we all know Shudras exist in Indi-land. However many of those unfortunate untouchables made it out of their misery by moving to the West.

May Bhagwan give them peace and prosperity to every untouchable.

Still the question for you is! Would you be OK that people started calling you Shudra Arjun?

``...But ask any CEO of the BPO or International Call Center, and he will tell you his biggest fear is not losing customer (ok, that fear is still there), but the availability of human resource if he gets any project.``

There`s the problem staring at you in the face........you people undervalue the power of women in business.

The CEO is not always a man in India.

I know TRG guys well and they have had a hard time growing the lahore operation simply because of one factor the author neglects..country risk. TRG is more like a fund rather than an operating company and as smart and capable guys as they are they are looking to grow in other parts of the world, namely philippines and....India. Yes India, they have hired an Indian fellow to head up their Healthcare BPO vertical and will be establishing presence in either Hyderabad or Chennai.

Zee, Pakistan is no where near to being a destination of choice for even china`s low end manufacturing....there are greater options available..including India.

for pak to dvelop, they will have to have a lead setor that can drive growth over multiple yars..currently that is helping the US in the war on terror. The longer the war goes on the way it has, the more pakistan wil benefit.

#18 by zeemax on January 29, 2007 11:38pm PT


Pakistan never focused on the lowly BPO as a matter of industrial policy.


You tried IT..you failed...you tried call centers(BPO)...you failed...

we believe you peemax...pakiland has never focused on this IT thingy..just a passing fad..

sure..we believe you..the grapes are sour..plus grapes raise your cholesterol and give you cooties...


It is a business model for India, but not for Pakistan. Rather than crunching payrolls and making treasury settlements for the big daddies,


yes...leave the stuff like chip design to India...


Pakistan`s business model is large scale and high-value added manufacturing, towards which all resources are directed.


yes...how`s that working out for you

Re: # 18

cannot make out if your being serious or a sarcastic and caustic person!

anil #19, just a small point. People are investing in Egypt, in particular, personally speaking, I am not very happy with the situation in India and to spread the risk, am moving stuff to Egypt and Brazil. One of the Indian companies has setup an entirely new unit for us in Brazil. Its getting tough in India. The hunger coefficient seems to be dipping in India while its rocketing in Cairo, Warsaw and Rio!, but this was to be expected!

Noman Faisal:

An informative article, wish you had identified the drivers of this industry in India a little better, and then compared the costs, and class of service of infrastructure. From your numbers, you can see that India generates about $20 - $25,000 per employee in this industry, which employs less than 1/10th of 1% of Indian population. Given these as the basis, Pakistan should be employing about 70,000 to 100,000 people, and generating $250-million per year to be at par with India.

Clearly Pakistan is not there. What are the reasons? Anything you have stated to me looks to be the reason. Ireland saw very early IT investments, and not seeing anymore. IT investment is skipping countries you mentioned, like the Philippines, Egypt, and moving to later entrant China, and for Europeans to ex-east European countries. Skill Surplus is the key driver, while God plays its trick to deliver cream at the top for IT (or better Knowledge industry) to thrive. You would agree if a merit based competitive system is in place then cream will be more than 1/10th of 1%. Incentives are misplaced, if they target NR-Pakistanis, NR-Indians did not contribute much to the early, or even subsequent growth of IT industry till infrastructure and other inefficiencies were out of the system. The only strategy that would make sense for Pakistan would to invest massively in educational infrastructure to have PITs (like IITs) in every town to bring out the cream. All incentives should be geared toward it.

After reading your article and Romair`s post, I went and checked up TRG. Obviously these guys must have a great job convincing investors in Pakistan, Dubai etc. to bankroll, because this seem to be an investment company, nothing to write home about. There strategy seems to be ``roll-up`` strategy of buying and merging smaller operations. This strategy has proven to be a very difficult to consolidate and generate more value, where it has been tried in the past among smaller waste-management and ambulance operators in the U.S. There is no guarantee TRG will succeed, let alone bring jobs to Pakistan.

Pakistan never focused on the lowly BPO as a matter of industrial policy. At best it is an ancillary business sector which developed the country`s connectivity with the rest of the world through private sector investment. E.g. unlimited high-speed broadband connectivity in Pakistan is now less than $ 50 per month for domestic users as against around $60 p.m. in USA.

It is a business model for India, but not for Pakistan. Rather than crunching payrolls and making treasury settlements for the big daddies, Pakistan`s business model is large scale and high-value added manufacturing, towards which all resources are directed.

The ally in the above business model is China, which has already started transferring its domestic appliance manufacturing to Pakistan starting with the Hier white goods manufacturing at Raiwind near Lahore.

#16 by taikonaut on January 29, 2007 9:44pm PT


How many American-Pakistanis are begging American-corporations to outsource BPO services to Pakistan. My answer is ``not many``.


How many westerners wouldn`t roll on the floor laughing at the concept of outsourcing to Pakiland...My answer is ``not many``



All is not lost though! Pakistan as a region has specialized in providing defense services to the West. Zia-ul Haq`s role in destroying anti-Jordan Palestinian militants is now a part of our history.


Your expertise is in BPO...Blowing up People Outsourcing...The arab islamofascists have outsourced jihad to you..in that, you`re world leaders..


Bottom line: You tried as hard as you could to get into real IT, as opposed to call center work...and you are failures at that...It ain`t as simple as ``if those hindoos can do it, surely we genetically superior pakis can do it in spades``...but the 72 million/yr figure should already tell you that...

This analysis is good. However any effort to compare Pakistan`s BPO sector with that of India`s must be done in historical perspective. Check out this essay:
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00005250&channel=civic%20center

India is uniquely positioned to support BPO because of some important factors:

1. Indian history of providing office services to the West since 1650s.
2. Indian-American community`s placement in America`s corporate structure
3. Pro-West attitudes at grass-root level of India

India`s BPO sector is unique, just like China`s manufacturing sector. No matter how hard India tries, it can never compete with Chinese factory output. The same thing is true for Pakistan. We cannot compete with India in BPO sector. Kawwa Chalaa Huns ki chaal ..........

This is the era of specializations and guarantee of ``getting the job done``. How many American-Pakistanis are begging American-corporations to outsource BPO services to Pakistan. My answer is ``not many``. In fact American-Pakistanis are brown-nosing Palestinians and the sundry Arab fascists. The result is the abysmal and pathetic attitudes among American-Pakistanis.

All is not lost though! Pakistan as a region has specialized in providing defense services to the West. Zia-ul Haq`s role in destroying anti-Jordan Palestinian militants is now a part of our history. Things in the Middle East haven`t changed much since the Palestinians received drubbing at the hands of Pakistani soldiers or the way our soldiers killed the Saudis who captured Kaaba.

We can either step up to the plate and get the ``job done`` by bringing order and peace to the Middle East, or be sent to the ``good-for-nothing`` ba-ba blacksheep of the region. We must capitalize on our ``expertise`` to earn money. The decision is ours. ..

Why would some Fortune 500 company be foolish enough to outsource to Pakistan given all the links to the Taliban and the nuclear proliferation ? Why do I want bad PR ? Especially when they have alternatives like India, Philippines, South Africa, Mexico, Poland etc.

Bulleya:

Please see http://www.pseb.org.pk/page.php?pid=2

You ll notice TRG on number 3 in the list of ITeS companies. Even in BPO sector TRG is not the largest company in Pakistan. They are moving towards philipines aggressively.

Regards
Noman

Thank you chowk for publishing this article.

bulleya, GT and stuka

Thank you for your comments. I will respond to your questions later.

Regards
Noman

GT:#: i only asked once, but it was printed twice, for some reason.......

.......in pakistani publications, trg is presented as the largest offshore call-center company in the world....

Re: # 7 by bulleya

The first sentence of your linked article says:

``The Resource Group (TRG) is one of the largest offshore-controlled BPO companies in the world.``

Note that `` ...(it) is ONE OF THE LARGEST...``, not ``....THE LARGEST...``. ``One of the...`` is something pretty easy to ``defend``.

(This post is just because you asked twice)

Regards.

Re: # 6

Arjun,

``This piddly little 31million$/yr .....``

I will take it no matter which region it is in.....thanks.

This article comes as a surprise to me. I thought Pakistanis considered themselves too good to do such menial work.

Good article. I went to one of the call center offices (TRG) in Lahore and was impressed by the infrastructure as well as quality if human resources. I`m sure that can be replicated.

...isn`t TRG the biggest IT-enable off-shore BPO company in the world? with $185 million in reveues........

http://www.sourcingmag.com/content/c060329a.asp

#5 by dharma on January 29, 2007 5:45pm PT

Yes...Captain Clueless is an extreme case but self-delusion is a paki national affliction...take a look at this news item...

NetSol awarded

LAHORE: NetSol Technologies Ltd was awarded the FPCCI Best Export Performance Award 2005-2006 by Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz.

The prime minister conferred the award to Mr Salim Ghauri, CEO and Chairman of the NetSol Technologies Ltd.

According to a press statement, the NetSol Technologies Ltd has been in operation since the past one decade. From starting with a human resource team of 10, NetSol has grown into one of the leading IT companies of the region. staff report

This piddly little 31million$/yr company is one of the leading IT companies in WHICH region!!

Re: # 4
In Pakiworld maybe, not in the real world...

Arjun, If i were born a paki i would prefer to live in a delusion too
rather than facing the real world. It is not their fault they are born
pakis and they have to have the will somehow to get through this shameful
life. Pakis if you dare just look at arjun`s ilog - that is the real world, but
i would advise not to believe what the articles say.

#3 by bulleya on January 29, 2007 5:12pm PT


...isn`t TRG the biggest IT-enable off-shore BPO company in the world?


In Pakiworld maybe, not in the real world...

Heck...even your article calls it one of the biggest and not the biggest, that too without citation...

What other BS claim are you going to make...that TRG is the biggest company in the world among companies starting with T and ending in RG?

...isn`t TRG the biggest IT-enable off-shore BPO company in the world? with $185 million in reveues........

http://www.sourcingmag.com/content/c060329a.asp

pakistan being underdeveloped is self inflicted. As long as they are hostile to India
there is only one way they will progress, into insignificance. They will keep playing
down the importance of India (it is called denial), until it does not matter anymore.
Indians will increasingly have more control over world media, business, educaton
and movies with much more disastrous consequence to Pakistan. And the present
day pakistan would look like heaven to furture generations. By 2015 most of this
would be true and there would no non musim country that wil allow pakis in.
Today if pakistan is out of world economy it is probably net benefit to the world.
They dont contribute anything to the world in a positive way. There are lot of things
they contribute negatively ofcourse. less said beter. Overall they are only of nusiance
value to the world surviving by blackmailing. Give us money or we will blow ourselves
up is the sum of their strategy. So the rest of the world will slowly take the capability
of blowing themselves up away - then noone would give a damn and it will
be forgotten. The only way out is to think and act like indians and ride on their
success. That is the only way even the few pakis that succeed in US are
succeeding. They work in IT and restaurant business along with Indians and
make it. that is the only way to fool the world.

A nice article and definitely different from most in chowk. Do not agree with a lot though. In particular, the author says ``we need to work ...... beyond our self-interests .......``. Am not sure about this ``beyond our self interest``. Nevertheless, the article is a nice read.