Education Reform: Signs of Hope

wat ever the case mayb we must first take serious steps to eradicate that cheatin stuff.............otherwise all wil go in vain,specially the efforts of students like me who work really hard

it sounds utopian alright. GPS and satellite technology being used by our ministry for monitoring purposes...i mean doc do u really think the lazy bimbos in tht ministry would actually do tht? I`m very pessimistic. And abt our satellite programme, isnt it true tht our only geo-satellite the Paksat-I is for the moment only beamin two free educational channels for the VU-and tht it isn`t capable of transmitting real time pics of locations such as those schools u just mentioned? Google earth is available I know, but for free one gets pics from two year old archives-for real time pics there`s a fee which i`m sure the government can afford, but would it hav the will to pay to do that exercise is all together different matter. We can dare to hope perhaps....but i dont know....there arnt many ppl in the federal ministry who can even grasp what tech can do for them....anyways...hope floats

Dear pervez recently i came across your article``Teaching science badly- and well``. it is a superb article. i noted some points which i will excise.
`science grips the imagination`.........i think so tru but still lot of channelizing is needed otherwise misfits of science will emerge and produce science fiction movies and literature.
`and I like most scientists, will never tire of it.`.......amen, long live the sentiment at least forev er.
`what are good science teachers actually supposed to do/ in class?`1 scientific habits of the mind....i feel excellent term.
2`the 2 are different( learning and teaching).....excellent points to aaaaa pon der!
3what is important to measure?.....sure way of bringing and keeping the science student on ground.
keeping this view, it will help your present article of chowk to guide and monitor the orators for the white paper.

#13

Don`t be so angry colonol sahib. Read this article appearing in the Dawn (14th, February) . ``Sun to sahi jahaan mein he tera fasaana kia, kehti he tujh ko khalqe khuda ghaibana kia``.


``Setting a bad precedent



DOES the government stand on such shaky ground that it found itself compelled to surrender to a handful of mullahs who, as the Capital Development Authority would have us believe, had no legal ground to stand on? The buckling of the authorities over the demolition of a mosque the CDA said was illegally built on an encroached piece of land is a gutless act. If the building was illegal, the government should not have succumbed to pressure under any circumstances. The way the religious lobby clinched the deal with the authorities is a story of cheap muscle-flexing: since Jan 21, armed women students of a seminary have taken over a children’s library which they refuse to vacate until all their demands have been accepted. These include a legal cover for 76 more mosques which were built on encroached land and the reconstruction of another six in and around Islamabad which were among the dozens demolished all over Punjab under the Nawaz Sharif government. The point to ponder is why there was no hue and cry raised then by the same religious lobby, which is now determined to demand much more in the name of faith.

The so-called deal reached between the authorities and the encroachers, in effect, gives the latter the right to act as self-proclaimed defenders of faith who can gobble up public land with impunity. Much of the illegal occupation by self-righteous mullahs of public land under the scrutiny of the CDA took place during the reign of the former military dictator Gen Ziaul Haq. This may give his son, Mr Ijazul Haq, the religious affairs minister, a chance to make common cause with the errant mullahs, but he should not be allowed to do so to the detriment of the citizens’ right to the use of public land. If allowed to proceed, the latest deal could result in the opening of the floodgates of encroachment everywhere by unscrupulous elements in the name of religion. It should be rescinded immediately, otherwise it will be seen as an example of capitulation rather than ‘enlightened moderation’ as the government would like one to believe.``

``Sun to sahi jahaan mein he tera fasaana kia, kehti he tujh ko khalqe khuda ghaibana kia``.

Re: # 157

I don`t think there were any professionals prosing religion as the Mullah or careering as soldiers in the time of the prophet, fighting in the name of Allah being mandatory for the Muslims.

No doubt, the prophet belonged prfessionally to the trading class and as it is, Islam does carry a strong imprint of his profession, but in my view, an honest trading is a better profession one can adopt, as per wise saying:

``Uttam Kheti, madh bapaar, nakhid chaakri``

Re: # 158

Urstruly sahib:

``It is just one big coruppt ruling class, that consists of faujis, molvis, atheists, professors, bankers, police, bureaucracy, feudal lord, gun runners, powder sellers, and what not.``

If it does not include you, then why does it exlcude you?

Don`t you think you have included almost everyone in Pakistan, if this is the case then should you not be very happy that in Pakistan, the pluralism and democracy arrived in its own and a very different way?

The only people you have exluded are jihadists, isn`t that good?

#157 by hamidm2 on February 18, 2007 2:28pm PT


and if you recall, he was a trader also


so pbuh-dude was a...bania?

#156 by Urstruly

Urstruly, I cannot lay blame on the entire fine institution of the Pakistan Military for the sins of a handful of Lieutenant Generals whom you can count on your fingers.

:~)

Re: # 158

urstruly,

..... i assume by `real mullah` you mean the whackos from waziristan and bajaur who are frightening the smelly tribesmen and their barbers and killing the poor 18 year old jawan from chakwal or jhelum simply because he chooses to shave his beard ............ i am sure you do not include the likes of qazi huassain and mullah fazloo who are riding around islamabad in their duty-free land cruisers .... or do you?

Re: # 157

uh pahleeze, there is no mullah military alliance. It is just one big coruppt ruling class, that consists of faujis, molvis, atheists, professors, bankers, police, bureaucracy, feudal lord, gun runners, powder sellers, and what not. Some of its memebers happen to have beards, whom you call moulvis or mullahs. These moulvis by being the part of this oppressive system are very much belong to this class. Its a mindset, that a certain segment of this society inherited from their colonial masters. The real mullah is out there sacrificing his life for the freedom of our country; his children are being bombed and his family is facing ``disppearnces``. Being atheist does not mean that you have to be dishonest as well. But on second thought dishonesty comes as a package with it.

Re: # 156


urstruly,

...... why are you surprised ?....... the holy alliance of mullah and military dates back to the time of the prophet - they are two sides of the same coin ............. and if you recall, he was a trader also - much like our present day faujis ......... so don`t be too harsh with poor zeemax - he is simply supporting the tradition of our warrior/trader prophet ......

zeemax

I am quite disappointed in you. Of all the people, I didn`t know that you would side with New East India Company Inc. of Pakistan.

Re:zeemax, bulleya

I have a perfectly good solution to both of your points of view. Just make it mandatory for all Pakistanis to serve in the army for a few years, like Israel does with its citizens. If everyone is an ex-fauji, then the fauji tag no longer becomes exclusive, does it? Everyone can then use their connections equally and thus you restore parity to the country`s socio-economic system. Also, a stint in the army might do wonders for inculcating discipline and curbing control of the mullahs. It may be impossible for India to do this with its population, but Pakistan might be able to pull it off.

#149 by bulleya

zeemax #142: ......you have still not answered the question i asked.....

I assume it is the same question I have answered in # 153 below.... i.e. ``...are public servants allowed to be members of the administrative committees of private corporations?...``

#150 by bulleya

Bulleya,

``(MD) of the Fauji Foundation .. refused to appear ... saying he was not accountable to the committee as Fauji Foundation was a private company.......On November 22, 2005, the federal education minister declared on the floor of the house that Fauji Foundation was not given any public money.....``

Correct.

``The government of Pakistan agreed to compensation for the losses incurred by the Fauji Jordan Fertiliser Company, renamed Fauji Fertiliser Bin Qasim Ltd. in the wake of non-implementation of the provisions of the Fertiliser Policy, 1989.....``

You`re reading things into this which do not exist. Please read your own quotation again i.e. ``...in the wake of non-implementation of the provisions of the Fertiliser Policy, 1989.....``

Whenever due to acts of the Government, or due to sudden policy changes resulting in the material detriment of industry, the Government ``compensates`` for losses incurred upon representation, and not ``absorb`` the losses through grants from exchequer as you appear to suggest. This happens all the time in case of all large industry and is done mainly through tax refunds and/or relaxations in excise duty etc. Sugar industy has been a beneficiary of these compensations many times, as has been cement.

The question is: are public servants allowed to be members of the administrative committees of private corporations?...``

Of-course they are. Bulleya, what kind of a question is that? If a public sector organisation holds a significant interest in a private entity, wouldn`t it place its officers on the boards of directors? Take the example of NIT. It is a public sector corporation. Right? Yet it`s executives are on the boards of more than 300 private corporations of all sorts. And a board of directors has sub-committees for all kinds of stuff including administrative committees. So if the Army, with it`s serving employees pension benefits funded through deductions in their service-long paychecks are at stake, wouldn`t they deem it prudent to place their own executives on the boards to safeguard their interests?

Besides, you have also noted vide your post that the Chairman of the administrative committee of The Fauji Foundation is Secretary Defence, and not a serving General.

The article you quoted is mostly uninformed nitpicking. Newsline is known for that as a blackmail rag. For instance, it mentions Marri Gas. You may recall that during this current military rule, a bidding for gas conscessions took place in 2002/03. The most lucrative Badin conscessions went to BP and Texaco, while Marri could only win a small block. And not only that, but they were even denied foreign exchange expenses by the Govt because they hadn`t brought-in any as investment being a local company. I know all this because it is my business to know.

However, the following is indeed true in your quoted article.

The mission statement of AWT declares:

“It is a major obligation of the army to look after the welfare and rehabilitation of retired members, who have devoted the best part of their lives to the motherland.”

And hats off to them for their good work in the private sector, while at the same time fulfilling their mission statement.

There`re always two ways to look at controversial matters like these. One is to look at them with a jaundiced eye, clouded with bias due to many bad things that the accused may have done, while the other is to isolate the facts and examine these objectively.


:~)

Re: # 150

Romair:

Is that you hidden under the garb of bulleya? I did not realize till I found a strange similarity between your style and someone else`s on Chowk. Finally, I discovered that someone else has been missing. Are you on a spiritual bandwagon or are you exploring yourself? That`s a major development. All the best!

Z

Re: # 147

Storyteller Storyteller - Were you able to retrieve your cake rusk ? Did it survive in the swimming pool of caffeinated tea and milk? Was there any sugar involved to shake and break the solid structure of cake rusk?

Please tell us more.

Interesting article on the point I am discussing, in Newsline:

http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsDec2006/cover3dec2006.htm

``......Earlier, in 2005, when a parliamentary committee had summoned the Managing Director (MD) of the Fauji Foundation, he refused to appear before them saying he was not accountable to the committee as Fauji Foundation was a private company.......On November 22, 2005, the federal education minister declared on the floor of the house that Fauji Foundation was not given any public money.....However, on December 28, 2005,.....The government of Pakistan agreed to compensation for the losses incurred by the Fauji Jordan Fertiliser Company, renamed Fauji Fertiliser Bin Qasim Ltd. in the wake of non-implementation of the provisions of the Fertiliser Policy, 1989.....``

``......The foundation is run by the administration committee and the board of directors...The administration committee’s chairman is also the defence ministry secretary, and its members are chief of the general staff, Pakistan army, adjutant general, Pakistan army, quartermaster general, Pakistan army, chief of logistics staff, Pakistan army, deputy chief of the naval staff, Pakistan navy and the deputy chief of air staff, Pakistan air force. In other words, there are several public servants, including generals, serving on the administrative committee of this “self-supporting entity in the private sector.”

The question is: are public servants allowed to be members of the administrative committees of private corporations?...``

zeemax #142: ......you have still not answered the question i asked.....

``Bulleya, for one, unfair advantage is part and parcel of the capitalist system. There is no room for the disadvantaged or less-advantaged. Wouldn`t you agree? ``

......actually, all attempts are made to limit unfair advantage in any system.....only systems in which such advantages are limited, are successful.......when it gets so blatant that serving lt. gens. head the boards of banks and other industry, it destroys the private sector and the country......hence your argument is quite a weak excuse to justify the interference of the army into business........using that argument, the mafia is justified also......

``Secondly, with the exception of the Chairman Askari Bank, ALL others are retired Faujis in the banks as well as all of their trusts including the chairmen and CEOs...``

.......this is like saying, other than the President of Pakistan, all other politicians, members of the assembly are retired officers and civilians!!....hence pakistan is a democracy.......

``There must be a reason for it and I`ll try to find out from friends in Askari i.e. why only the bank.``

.......it`s not only the bank.......it`s everywhere......as i highlighted he headed the DHA also......the reason is simple.......i explained it to you in detail.......either he is an expert financial mind.....or it is to have access to the resources/budget of the military.......

``As for Defence Housing Authority, I don`t know where you got that any serving General is its head. He is not....... while the Corps Commander is head of its Executive Committee for day to day executive powers in line with rules laid down by the governing body. Similarly for DHA Lahore, the Corps Commander is indeed head``

.......you have answered your own question........what business does the corps commander have in being the head of the executive committe of the largest real estate developer in the country.......why is he there......once again, the same reason the other lt. gen. is the head of the bank........to utilized the resources/budget etc. of the army.......

.......there is a reason there are strict rules in every other country on serving generals/presidents/prime ministers etc. being heads of private sector enterprises......it is called conflict of interest, i.e these folks will use the govts. resources under them, to benefit the private sector companies they head.....they will also use their influence to get contracts for these private sector companies......

......this is exactly the reason, any private sector company would want a president/pm/corps commander etc. to head its board........it could mint money using his influence over the taxpayers resources........

.......if these generals want to head these organizations while serving and join them after retirement, then they should be run like other publicly owned organizations, like national bank, pia etc........i.e. the profits should go to the govt. which should spend them on the whole population.......the profits should not go to one group, i.e army,while the liabilities and funding is handled by the taxpayer.......

as i keep saying, army welfare trust, fauji foundation etc. are some of the biggest scams in the country......they use taxpayers money to benefit and employ a small group........there is after all a reason, other countries would never allow the army to get involved in the industry.........

however, if you want to keep supporting these companies because you think they are efficient, then please go ahead and do so......do, however, remember that some of the most efficient industries in usa were (are) run by the mafia.......efficiency is the not the criteria to be used here......the legalities of the funds and how liabilities are handled is the criteria......

there is a lot you don`t know about the military......things one can only learn by being in it.........

Re: # 51

Urstruly

Please tell me how you posted this Urdu on chowk. I miserably failed to do that at #26 when I tried to paste here an article from BBCUrdu. Will you or any chowky friend kindly teach me how to do this?

Re: # 146

.... the cake rusk is not to be confused with the lowly papa - a dry and bland cousin that is primarily consumed by the lowly civilians of pakistan ......... only faujis eat cake rusks ....... however it is rather ironic that the men in khaki are sometimes referred to as papays ........ go figure !

Re: # 145

Storyteller - Can you please let the curious ones know about the kind of rusk involved in the picture? Thanks in advance.

kutay khasi karna ....... neutring dogs

a couple of years ago i was sitting in a friend`s drawing room, carefully dipping my cake rusk into a cup of tea, when i was accused of wasting my time by castrating dogs ........... needless to say, i was so shocked by the accusation that the rusk dropped into the tea and i had to fish it out with a teaspoon ............

............anyway, there i was, talking to my friend who had just returned after spending 20 years wandering the deserts of the middle east without running into an angel or a prophet, when his father, the jernail, walked in with his cane and and took a swing at the black bear that had lain there for as long as i could remember ........... instinctively i shot to my feet and stuck out my hand .....

me : as salaam o` aliakum, uncle ............. sir!

jernail (nodding his head and wagging his stick, ordering me to sit down): oye, what are you doing here?........... how is amreeka ?..... how is clinton and what his her name .....that girl in the beret ?

friend : monica ?

jernail (looking at his son with his eyes flashing): ........and i hope you are doing something productive in amreeka instead of lying around like your friend who spends his day chasing after a little white ball ...... so what have you been up to?........... have you decided what you are going to do with your life or are you just going to play golf and take naps for the rest of your life ............

friend: aba ji, dont worry about me ..... i have plenty of money to last me a lifetime even if i don`t do anything ....... but i am getting close on reaching an agreement with ......

jernail: beywaqoof gadhay ! .......... you think a million and a half dollars is plenty of money ........ if you had stayed in the army, instead of running after the sheik`s petro dollars, you would easily have made general and retired in a couple of years with millions in the bank ...........look at your brother, he is only a brigadier and already has four plots and still has a long way to go ........... any general, worth his name, who retires today is worth at least five or six million dollars ........ remember i told you all that 20 years ago? ....... now, phugto !

i guess he must have caught me yawning and looking at the neel gai mounted on the wall next to the moth-eaten marco polo sheep, the gurkha knives and other captured indian military paraphernalia ..........

jeranil: oye, and what are you up to nowdays ........ did your father pay for your airline ticket so you could come and see the old man ?....... what are you doing in amreeka? anything productive ya sirf kutay khasi kar rahay ho !

......... and that is when my rusk fell into the tea .....

#137

Haha ... I see some people celebrating arrival of their year ... haha

Kung Hei Ding Hai

#137

Haha ... I see some people celebrating arrival of their year ... haha

Kung Hei Ding Hai

#134/135 by bulleya

.... if not, then how about you and i start a company, and make musharraf the head of the board of directors.......based on your defintion, that shouldn`t be a problem.........there should be no conflict of interest.....it would not give us any unfair advantage over our competition......Following is the Board of Directors of Askari Bank. Askari Bank is a, ``private `` bank launced by the Army`s industrial arm.

Bulleya, for one, unfair advantage is part and parcel of the capitalist system. There is no room for the disadvantaged or less-advantaged. Wouldn`t you agree?

Secondly, with the exception of the Chairman Askari Bank, ALL others are retired Faujis in the banks as well as all of their trusts including the chairmen and CEOs. I fail to see how you count retired Faujis as overlapping with the military`s resources? My dear, they ceased to be the military`s resource when they retired.

As for Chairman of the bank who is always a serving General, I agree with your point. There must be a reason for it and I`ll try to find out from friends in Askari i.e. why only the bank.

As for Defence Housing Authority, I don`t know where you got that any serving General is its head. He is not.

For DHA Karachi (these are all different authorities for diferent cities mind you and not one behemoth), the Secretary Defence is Head of its governing body while the Corps Commander is head of its Executive Committee for day to day executive powers in line with rules laid down by the governing body. Similarly for DHA Lahore, the Corps Commander is indeed head but the provincial secretaries of Punjab in Law, Finance and Housing Departments are all members of the governing body. (Source: Wiki and The Defence Housing Authority Lahore Ordinance 1999)

Making unfounded surmises and labelling of the Pakistan Army as Real Estate Moguls is totally wrong and spreads damaging misperceptions which you can see all over Chowk etc. The military trusts/foundations have done a brilliant job of providing capital intensive services where private sector was either missing in the field or running away with people`s money through fake housing societies and apartment projects.

Now that DHA has opened up the high-end/high-rise seafront market like the Creek Marina/Vista in Karachi, you see all the foreigners queuing up to compete. This is mega risk-taking and entrepreneurship, not exploitation.

:~)

...... and this really bothers the heck out of me ....... here we are worrying about gunga din while poor cameron is being going through this :

Actress Cameron Diaz has accepted ``substantial`` libel damages from a US tabloid over a false claim that she was having an affair with a married man.
Ms Diaz, 34, sued publishers American Media Incorporated over pictures and a story that appeared on the National Enquirer website in May 2005.

......damn !

Deceased former Playboy model Anna Nicole Smith left her entire estate to her dead son, excluding any other heir from inheritance, it has emerged.
Daniel Smith died last year, aged 20, just three days after Anna Nicole gave birth to her daughter, Dannielynn.

........... and here we are worrying about what some tin pot dictator and his merry men are doning in some godforsaken place that doesn`t have any oil or sandy beaches ........

.......... i don`t know why, but i really don`t care that much about the paki army forcing the people to eat just one brand of cereal , but this really moved me to tears :

Pop star Madonna has said she ``wants to be like Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and John Lennon``.
The 48-year-old made the statement on US radio station Sirius - but added she wanted to ``stay alive``.

``For me, the best thing in the world is to see something or hear something and go: `Damn, I wish I did that. That`s inspiring,``` she added.

Re: # 136

my God Pakistan is an army occupied country.....these Khaki bastards have no shame -- plundering the country -- left and right -- in broad day light -- and these corrupt to the bone uniformed askariya lashkariyas have the grotesque face to accuse the civilians of corruption!

#136 by bulleya on February 16, 2007 12:23pm PT


``private`` bank


maybe they mean private as in Pvt Abdul, not private sector..

capt clueless...think about it..if the generals weren`t runnign banks and stuff, they`d launch foolish operations like the one in kargil and end up having to abandon private abdul`s body when they lost...

so this is really a good thing...

Following is the Board of Directors of Askari Bank. Askari Bank is a, ``private`` bank launced by the Army`s industrial arm.

Lt. Gen. Waseem Ahmed Ashraf - Chairman
Lt. Gen. (R) Zarrar Azim - Chairman Executive Committee
Mr. Shaharyar Ahmad - President & Chief Executive
Brig (R) Muhammad Shiraz Baig - Director
Brig (R) Asmat Ullah Khan Niazi - Director
Brig (R) Muhammad Bashir Baz - Director
Brig (R) Shaukat Mahmood Chaudhari - Director
Mr. Zafar Alam Khan Sumbal - Director
Mr. Kashif Mateen Ansari - Director
Mr. Muhammad Najam Ali - Director
Mr. Muhammad Afzal Munif - Director
Mr. Tariq lqbal Khan - Director (NIT Nominee)

.....the chairman of the board is a serving lt. gen. of the army.......in his spare time, he is also the adjutant general of the whole pakistan army.......i.e. the guy responsible for running the personnel of the whole army of 500,000 people........he must be the only serving lt. gen. in the whole world who is heading the board of a, ``private`` bank......and pakistan may be the only country, where the army`s top brass has such impressive credentials that their serving generals are invited by, ``private`` banks to serve as their heads.......not only when they are retired, but when they are serving in the army!!........

......however, it would be bad enough if, lt. gen waseem was only the head of a, ``private`` bank.....he is also the head of defence housing authority........now DHA is no small little authority........it is the largest real estate organization in a country, where real estate is one of the top five businesses in the private sector........to give you an idea of its assets, just one of the mosques built in DHA costs Rs 500 million.......

........who else assists lt. gen. waseem in running DHA....Vice President DHA, Maj General Zakauddin and Administrator DHA Brig Abdul Ghafoor........the names may have changed this year, but, rest assured, the ranks are the same.........

.......this is just the example of one serving general.....there are many more like him.......he heads a major bank, and the largest real estate corporation in the country and is, simultaneously, running the whole army..........allah be praised!!....could a serving lt. gen. in the usa become head of wells fargo bank and remax realtors, while simultaneously running the us army!!...............

.......just the overlap of army and private sector, based on this one individual`s appointment should be enough to convince anyone how much the army welfare trusts etc. overlap with the serving army.......what talk of resources and budgets, the people running the organizations are the same serving generals!!.......

at least, the guy should have had the dignity of retiring, before taking over these, ``private`` sector positions......however, once he retires, he will be onto bigger and better things.....he will be on the same line as retired general javed ashraf qazi....i.e minister of railways, senator, minister of education, secretary of science and tech.........

zeemax #: you have still not answered my question:

......why don`t the retired officers start an independent corporation/trust and called in Retired Officers Trust and run it in the open market, like all other coroparations.......why do they associate it with the army......why do they need a serving lt. gen. to be the chairman of the board of their bank?......etc.

.....are they getting any advantages by associating it with the army, or is it just for nostaligia sake........if they are getting an advantage, then it is the unfair advantage i am talking about.........if they are not, then why in the world do they associate it with the army.......

zeemax #133:``The only amounts, if any, with Askari bank would be just some loose petty cash. The budget is not handed over to the coas, to do as he pleases nor can he put it in a bank started by his brother.....``

...yes this is exactly what i was trying to point out to you.......you had stated that, ``After that it is upto those department`s own rules/regulations which banks to use etc.``....by the way, rest assured, it is not, ``some lose petty cash........`` i`ll try to get you the details of exactly how the askari bank overlaps with army`s own ventures........

....``overlapping their trust with the military, I believe this to be factually incorrect and just a surmise on your part, unless you can come up with some references to the contrary``

.....the head of the board of directors of askari bank is a serving lt. gen......this is one simple example of a conflict of interest.......there are quite a few more......you have, yourself, highlighted that so many of the army`s companies are running in a loss.......how are they able to stay in business........who bails them out of these loses?........take a guess....

.......who appoints the head of fauji foundation......is it just a coincidence that it is always a a retired general?.......i believe not.......

there are many examples on the material side, where resources of the army are used by these trusts, however, just the simple fact that a private entity (according to your definition) is overlapping with the army, gives that private entity an unfair advantage...don`t you think.......

if not, then how about you and i start a company, and make musharraf the head of the board of directors.......based on your defintion, that shouldn`t be a problem.........there should be no conflict of interest.....it would not give us any unfair advantage over our competition......after all having a serving coas and president as the head of the board should be allowed in every country........

.....contd....

If you`re still not convinced, you may check on the total deposits of Askari Bank against the military budget ... or even a small fraction of it ... :~)

#127 by bulleya

Yaar bulleya, it seems you`re not clear about these things at least in case of Pakistan. As you correctly say, the ``budgets`` of all Govt authorities including the military are not handed over in lump sum, but rather as utilized according to the budget. It`s the same in Pakistan. This `budget` of the military is with the State Bank of Pakistan Rawalpindi where the Controller of Military Accounts has a checking account. The only amounts, if any, with Askari bank would be just some loose petty cash. The budget is not handed over to the coas, to do as he pleases nor can he put it in a bank started by his brother..... I hope this point is clear now.

Re overlapping their trust with the military, I believe this to be factually incorrect and just a surmise on your part, unless you can come up with some references to the contrary.

:~)

#121 dot: while you are on the subject, you may as well carry it all the way to how we are all matter that was forged in long dead stars - all heavy elements including carbon (of which life on earth is largely composed) being formed inside stars, and being released when those stars die. Out of that come clouds that give birth to new stars as well as to planets (of which earth is one).

One could go deeper still, and consider things beyond our known universe of space (which extends a ``mere`` 12 billion or so light years) and time (which extends a ``mere`` 14 billion years or so back before which there was the big bang and ``before`` that we have no clue what was going on).

Reality (of which we become aware through science) is thus proving to be far more profound than any religion as understood in centuries past. We are not just ``such stuff as dreams are made of`` (as shakespeare said), but stuff we cannot even dream of.

PS: the above is my profound thought for the day. :-)

BTW muttawa zeemax, evian has left a message for you!

some of the comments on this board are like the comments of this character....

#125 lol, so true!

yes, true so is the cow, goat, lamb, etc.........but the vulture, hyaena etc live on dead carrion like many human beings!

zeemax #113: ``The entire budget including army is passed by the Parliament and allocated to respective authorities. After that it is upto those department`s own rules/regulations which banks to use etc. One can`t go back to the people for routine operational issues time and again.``

so, if the pakistan army wanted to put all its budget in a bank started by the coas`s brother that would be ok........if it wanted to spend all its budget on getting clothes for the coas, that would be ok, also.........

.......in any country, there are powerful oversight committees, of elected officials, that oversee evey penny of the govt. budget, including the military budget.......the militaries aren`t allowed to spend it any way they want......and the budget they get is against specific tasks and equipment......it is not a lump sum, handed over to the coas, to do as he pleases.....

......if we agree with your argument, then why should the army even invest in defense equipment........if they can do with the budget as they please, then why not simply turn itself into an industrial conglomerate all together......there would be nothing wrong with that, according to your description.......in fact, this is what it is doing through army welfare trusts and fauji foundations etc........

.......these welfare trusts are the equivalent of having a nationalised bank, being run by the taxpayers money.....however, the profit of the bank does not go to the govt. to spend on the welfare of all the taxpayers.......it only goes to the members of the Ministry of Finance.......

the answer to the following question should clarify things for you: why don`t the retired officers start an independent corporation/trust and called in Retired Officers Trust and run it in the open market, like all other coroparations.......it could use the pooled resources of all army officers........but would have no access to army resources/budget etc.......

......why do they insist of overlapping their trust with the military?......surely they must be getting some advantage......and if they are getting that advantage (which you are unwilling to recognize), then why isn`t that advantage provided to every businessman?

#125

A gadha is veg ... or didn`t you know?

Re: # 123
BTW zeemax, I am a strict vegan whoch sort of leaves me out of the loop. It is you brainless meat-eaters who eat the high-residual-toxic-level food that need to be careful - whether you a vulture or a human being! Or as they say ghade and insaan mein pharak naheen!

#123 (lol!)

zeemax who is to say what one comes back as (finger wagging icon). It all depends on your transgressions and the accumulation of these transgressions. What you considered minorcould be major and the vice-versa.

Hence at the pearly gates you have to answer to St Peter and you get that grade of hell. Or you get reduced number of virgins etc etc.

Phal bhugatne padegee.....(to put it in a language you can understand)

#121

Sure it is. Just make sure you don`t come back as a vulture given the iLog of SR.

Re: # 121
or as the horrible hindoos would say

purnamadah purnamidam purnaat purnamudachyate
purnasya purnaamadaya purnameva vashishyate

purnamadah: `That is complete.`
purnamidam: `This is complete.`
purnamadah purnamidam `That is complete, this is complete`.
purnat purna mudachyate - `From that completeness comes this completeness`
purnasya purnamadaya - If we take away this completeness from that completeness`
purnameva vashishyate: `Only completeness remains.`


interesting.....

Re: # 118

According to Buddhism you are incarnated and reincarnated in this world till such time you have committed no transgressions.

Think about it - this is logically plausible.
You die - your body decomposes into the basic chemicals. these get recycles through the food chain somewhere some place...essentially you are coming back but in a different form...maybe...the sperm and the ova which created you, could contain (however remote this might be) some element of your past!

So your thinking you might be sivaji is not not far fetched - or could it be Sivaji had a part of you from a previous life!

This eternal cycle is pretty mesmerising.

Re: # 117
[....We can be eternally indebted to the Brits for atleast one -- English....]

Sure... and the blacks should be ``eternally indebted`` to white slave-masters to bring over their ancestors from africa. Now, as americans, they have such a good life - right?

English is just an un-intended consequence of being enslaved and colonised for hundreds of years. Brits were NOT here to teach you english - they were here to exploit you... that`s the truth... So while we use english to our benefit, we are not ``indebted`` to anybody...

In fact, our english should be used pay the brits back... Tata`s take over of Corus should just be a start... :)

ranjit #107 You are of course welcome to hang on to your views, given that they make you happy. :-) Far be it for me to put a few inconvenient facts between a man and his hallucinations.

#116 ``They`` didnt teach me what the GCC is either, so kindly spell it out so I can try to understand what you are trying to say. As for myself being an ``ex-Indian``, I am delighted to learn of this, having been born in Pakistan. Perhaps you are referring to some previous incarnation of mine (perhaps the incarnation when I was Sivaji) ... :-)

I am no Anglophile -- but one will have to accept that todays Pakistan and India owe a lot to British colonialism -- this was indeed the lucky silver lining in the colonial clouds that had darkened certain aspects of subcontinental lives for almost 200 hundred years -- Tahseen that was a good post.

We can be eternally indebted to the Brits for atleast one -- English.

Re: # 104

Tahmed you claim to be some kind of ex Bureaucrat. Strange they never taught you permanent settlement and Ryotwari act of Bengal and how it changed the old system of Damdaupat (literally meaning twice over) which meant that once twice the amount of a loan was repaid there was no liability to repay it anymore none of the usury that happened after the British did wwhat was above.

And Tahmed there were very few famines in this country before the Brits came and many after them.

Regards
Sanatani

P.S. As an ex-Indian you find it very hard to digest that in economic terms India was the biggest king of the block and till 1963 the Indian Rupee was the second most prized but the most commonly accpeted tender in the areas that comprise the GCC.

#112 by Tehsinabbasi

Excellent post abbasi sahib. I also agree with Tahmed’s posts on this subject. I just don’t have enough time right now to contribute to the discussion and would write something over the weekend hopefully.

Urstruly, ``Asaar-ul-Sinadeed`` is not some authentic book about the economy. It was all about old buildings and other points of interests in Delhi. I read that book in my teens so I may not have grasped the whole idea behind the book but even at that time it was apparent that Syed Ahmed was just glorifying the past like the current Indians talk about inventing the Zero but they still remained Zero after inventing it.

India’s GDP myth does not take into account that India, population wise, was one of the two largest countries in the world even some two or three centuries ago. Most of the world was still agrarian and India with population and area available for cultivation was perhaps the largest entity after China. There have always been armies of beggars that roamed Indian cities and towns throughout the history.

British tried to turn India into a major cotton producing country and that caused major shift in economic activity and destroyed some ancient agriculture base.
Will post more later…

#109 by SR

But for the disclaimer, you bring fond memories of Ustaad Echoboom :~)

#79 by bulleya

Well ... these things can be discussed back & forth as to how an army trust should be constituted. But I would contest your statements that :

(a) `` it is a trust run by the money of the retired officers, plus the resources of the pakistan army (i.e. the pakistan govt.) ``

There is no evidence to support that and you may citre references.

(b) ... if the army puts all its budget into askari bank, then obviously it will be profitable.......however, the army generals don`t own the budget, the budget belongs to the people of pakistan........what if the people want the budget to go to habib bank?........if askari computers is given the contracts for the army`s own projects ...

The entire budget including army is passed by the Parliament and allocated to respective authorities. After that it is upto those department`s own rules/regulations which banks to use etc. One can`t go back to the people for routine operational issues time and again.

As for the army preferring its own foundation/trust to award in-house business, what is wrong with that? It does award what it doesn`t itself do, to outside vendors.

Besides, two of the army`s businesses compete in the open market and win hands down fair & square. These are NLC (National Logistics Corp) for heavy surface hauling, and FWO (Frontier Works Organisation) which is building fresh world-standard highway infrastructure plus improving on the old one all over the country.

No one likes military rule, but give credit where it`s due.

:~)

Myth Mongering:

India sonay ki chirrya – refers to the fact that the Golconda diamond mines had the reputation through out the world for their riches. This in addition to gold mines made India very wealthy according to pre-industrial standards. The wealth in India was measured in terms of hiray jawahirat and eating in gold plates and drinking out of gold goblets. But beyond this it was not so great. Muslin, cotton fabric, and a variety of other manufactured products could fetch good prices, agriculture production, double harvests (both summer and winter crops), spices was perhaps all that was produced. The British came to India for spices but ended up trading in manufactured goods from India as the spices they were looking were in the East Indies.

The first battle of Panipat was fought in 1526 and Babur was proclaimed Emperor of India establishing the Mughal empire in India. He defeated Ibrahim Lodhi a muslim ruler also of Pathan – Afghan descent. (Good, very good – establish strong Muslim rule in India) He looted pillaged, subdued whoever came in his path Muslim, Hindu, Sikh and carved out a kingdom in Northern India.

From 1499-1599 Portuguese establish trading colonies in Goa and Surat, along with other colonies through out the Indian Ocean establishing a monopoly for all trade from the East to Europe. The local rajas oblivious to the external world used their services in petty disputes with rival rajas. The Dutch supplanted the Portuguese and in turn were supplanted by the British. But this was essentially a trading venture. The Dutch East India Company was formed through common stock sale and the crown refused to partake considering the venture to be too risky, only concession made was that the company was allowed to carry the Dutch flag and employ troops to protect its property in the colonies, which of course were always in danger of being attacked by the Portuguese or local potentates. The British East India Company fashioned itself on the Dutch model and ended up being much more successful then all of the colonists.

Akbar 1556 -1605 abolished jizya, tolerated diversity and ushered in an era of unparalleled prosperity in India. Only to be supplanted by his great grand son Aurangzeb 1658 – 1707 who re-imposed the jizya, resumed destruction of Hindu temples and caused such anger and discontent that the whole empire disintegrated. The Mughal Empire never reached the southern coast of India, and other then sending pilgrim ships to Mecca did not participate in any sea trade.

The invaders from the North who came a hundred years earlier we celebrate while the traders who became rulers from the South we continue to lament.

By early 18th century India was back in its traditional shape of being ruled by local potentates always at war with their neighbors. Whereas the rulers lived in relative luxury the teaming masses (India even then was over populated) lived in abject poverty. Victorian Britain was full of poverty as well, which is so vividly portrayed in the writings of Charles Dickens. The early industrial revolution had been so rough on the working class that it prompted the theories of Marx and Engel about a workers revolution. But still John Stuart Mill was so appalled by the scenes of abject poverty that he saw in India that he wrote something to the effect that religion and custom had so destroyed the spirit of a people that there was no parallel in history. Poverty until the advent of the industrial revolution was universal, the whole world was poor it was only rare pockets where people had roti, kuprra and mukaan. Colonialism, industrialization was bringing prosperity to the British masses, this phenomena prompted Adam Smith to write his book “Wealth of Nations” in which he tried to study the reasons for the relative prosperity of some nations as compared to others.

But the real asset that India had and which elevated India’s position as the ‘jewel in the crown’ was its compliant work force. A huge mass of humanity, which was smart and willing to be trained and mobilized for any cause. The British used Indians as their surrogates all over the world and this made them a huge empire and in the process lifted Indians as well. India got its telegraph, railways, school system, universities, news papers a lot before any of its erstwhile neighbors and many European countries as well.

Did Britain help or hurt India, we will continue to debate that till kingdom come but fact remains that it was not even one percent of them and more then 99 percent of us who they had submit to their will. Could they do it without our help, I don’t think so.

anil

Thank you. The name of the book is indeed ``Rise and Fall of Empires`` by Paul Kennedy.

Sir Walter Scott, commenting on the abdication of Napoleon Bonaparte in 1814

``Although I never supposed that he (Napoleon) possessed, allowing for some difference of education, the liberality of conduct and political views which were sometimes exhibited by old Haidar Ally, yet I did think he (Napoleon) might have shown the same resolved and dogged spirit of resolution with induced Tippoo Saib to die manfully upon the breach of his capital city with his sabre clenched in his hand.``

I think, the East India Company first, and later the British were able to conquer the Sub-Continent, not because of superior wealth, technology, social sophistication etc. They were able to conquer it due to a more mature political process.......

......if one studies the battles fought by the the East India Company and the British in the Sub-Continent, invariably, it turns out that the British played one local kingdom against the other........the defeat of Tipu Sultan is one such example......

``After Horatio Nelson had defeated Napoleon at the Battle of the Nile in Egypt in 1798 CE, three armies, one from Bombay, and two British (one of which included Arthur Wellesley the future first Duke of Wellington), marched into Mysore in 1799 and besieged the capital Srirangapatnam in the Fourth Mysore War. There were over 26,000 soldiers of the British East India Company comprising about 4000 Europeans and the rest Indians. A column was supplied by the Nizam of Hyderabad consisting of ten battalions and over 16,000 cavalry, and many soldiers were sent by the Marathas. Thus the soldiers in the British force numbered over 50,000 soldiers whereas Tippu Sultan had only about 30,000 soldiers.`` wikipedia......

.......so basically, the East Indian Company only had 4,000 Bristish soldiers, out of the 50,000 who attacked Tipu Sultan!! The remaining were all Marathas and Hyderabadis etc.........indians fighting indians, on behalf of the British!!

interesting fact about Tipu Sultan: ``Tippu Sultan was a founder-member of the Jacobin Club. While accepting the membership, he said of France, ``Behold my acknowledgement of the standard of your country, which is dear to me, and to which I am allied; it shall always be supported in my country, as it has been in the Republic, my sister!``. He was named as ``Citizen Tippu Sultan``,

the Jacobian Club was the famous political club in the French Revolution.........

LORD MACAULAY`S ADDRESS TO THE BRITISH PARLIAMENT, 2 FEBRUARY, 1835

``I have travelled across the length and breadth of India and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a thief. Such wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people of such calibre, that I do not think we would ever conquer this country, unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage, and, therefore, I propose that we replace her old and ancient education system, her culture, for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and English is good and greater than their own, they will lose their self-esteem, their native culture and they will become what we want them, a truly dominated nation.``

disclaimer: It is disputed that this is a part of Lord McCauley`s speech to British Parliament because Lord McCauley arrived in India on 10th June 1834 and returned to England in early 1838. If in 1835 he was in India then how could he have delivered a speech in the British Parliament. He arrived in India by a 3 month long journey by ship so it is unlikely the Lord made a quick visit to England for delivering this speech.

...when the east india company, ``invaded`` bengal, bengal was one of the welthiest areas in the world.....granted it had a nawab/king ruling the area, but that was the norm all over the world......

.......the east india company massively exploited bengal......it literally taxed people into starvation and eventually death.......the lifestyles of the east indian company employees were unmatached even by those of the richest people in england.......all of this was done by taxing the poor bengali laborer.....

........so much so, that by the time the east indian company (and later the british) left bengal, it was one of the poorest areas in the world (if not the poorest)....

......an easy criteria to use is that bengal had massive famines during the days of the british rule........it lost upto 1/3rd (?) or some huge number of its citizens due to these famines.......once again, these famines were due to the policies of the british.......this combined with the massive taxation by the east india company, left the local population in tatters.........from which it has yet to recover.........

......it is incorrect to think that the sub-continent was some boondock with natives waiting to get civilized by the white man........the sub-continent was a very sophisticated and rich area......even after the demise of the mughals, it may have remained so......it would have divided into its traditional monarchies........

.........there was vast interaction between sub-continental leaders/nawabs etc. and british, which indicates that technology etc was being transfered.......shah jahan had thousands of european artisans/architects etc. working for him........ranjit singh`s army was set up along the most modern european lines, with european doctors, trainers etc.......tipu sultan was a very learned man and had direct interaction with the french (napolean?), to form an alliance to get rid of the british.......

so much so that the east indian company officers were settling down in the sub-continent and heavily inter-marrying into the local population and integrating into the society.....this notion of east is east and west is west only started in the 19th century onwards........

Re:tahmed

[..ranjit: So India is just like the US, and the Pakistan military is a puppet in the hands of India? :-)

You guys dont need any alcohol in India - you seem to produce your own internal hallucinatory drugs....]

Tahmed, this is how the future is shaping up. US and Indian interests are very closely aligned now. The Pak army is a total puppet of the US so it is by default a puppet for Indian interests.

Also, as Kashmir gets resolved, all of Pak army attention will be focused on its western borders for the foreseeable future. It is already happening that way now. Effectively Pak army is becoming a shield from jihadis for India and the US. The suicide bombs are going off in Pakistan now rather than in India, if you have not noticed.

Re: # 99

Urstruly:

The book you probably mean is by Paul Kennedy and called ``Rise and Fall of Empires``.

India had richer economy till the advent of European Colonialism, which impacted not only India but China also. In 1800s European colonies were to provide raw material and not industry, but also the markets to buy European goods and pay for services (= ruling thru taxation) from the sale of raw material. The U.S. rebelled - ``No taxation without representation``, was the reason for Boston Tea Party.

The rapid industrialization that followed in Europe is the evidence. This was the systematic policy. To this date, East India Company has provided the highest shareholder returns, not even Microsoft has been able to repeat this performance.

In fact economic historians have demonstrated that France till early 1990s lived off the riches and wealth accumulated during its colonial days. Its overall domestic product contribution during the post colonial period had been negative overall. The stop was put at Suez-Canal, till then Brits and French were ready to send their troops, probably different only in savagry to the early Islamic soldiers. Missionaries complimented the role where soldiers could not reach.

The world now has entered a new era of knowledge economies, where jobs (=labor of industrial period), technology, information and capital can move in seconds.

Re: # 102

According to IMF and WB figures the world GDP today stands at about 61 Trillion dollars; whereas US and European Union each has a contribution of 20% each into it with 12 Trillion dollar GDP respectively.

So even if we accept your 25% (Maddison, Bairoch, Frank) figures to be true then Hindustan`s GDP was still more than present day US or EU. Today the combined GDP of India and Pakistan stand at about 4 trillion dollars which means they together contribute about 6% of world GDP. The question is what brought us to this level from producing 25% (or about 50% according to Adam Smith) of world GDP down to 6%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

Tahmad

Do you see now, that even with 25% GDP Hindustan was richer than present day US or EU. I hope the point is clear now.

#102 Thank you. 25% is half of what urstruly was saying.

what is not mentioned in the quote from the wikipedia you provide is that in the 19th century the rest of the world grew by leaps and bounds. The US, e.g. had massive inflows of capital from europe that transformed it from a rural society to an industrial society in the 19th century - the civil war considered the first major war of the industrial age. Japan had the meiji restoration that transformed it from a rural society into an industrial society that a few years after the end of the 19th century had a steam-age navy strong enough to sink the russian fleet. Germany was transformed from a rural society to an industrial one in the same century. So, it is is more accurate to say that India did not grow in the 19th century like other nations rather than that India was impoverished and (as is implied in the quote) the rest of the world stood still. The latter could not be further from the truth.

So, dont go by statistics too much - as they say, there are lies, damned lies, and (worst of all), statistics. :-) And what you quoted from wikipedia is a good example.

#100 hamidm: Why ``assume`` 2 + 2 = 4 when you know it is 4? The vast majority of Abduls in the 17th century lived in a world that was vastly poorer than today - entire lifetimes were spent without going more than 30 miles from one`s place of birth. That is all I have been arguing about with Urstruly.

You take a step forward and ``assume`` that poverty has always been there but hold the military responsible for the fact that Pakistan is not South Korea today. That is a little better than what urstruly writes, but not much:

1. It was a civilian, not military, government (ZABhutto to be exact) that brought Pakistan`s economic growth to its knees in the 1970s by nationalizing everything. Under Ayub (the original military dicatator), Pakistan was in fact was held up as a modern developing country in the 1960`s.

2. The major damage the military has done is to curb the political development of Pakistan at the national level. The economy has been moving forward quite well under musharraf, and (as I mentioned earlier), paradoxically the military dictator has fostered political development in Pakistan at the grass-roots level by replacing DCs with elected Nazims. So, accuse the military by all means of wrong-doing where there has been wrong-doing. But dont accuse it of everything you can think of.

Wikipedia`s quick search says:

Economic historians estimate that India commanded roughly 25% of world GDP by 1800, but perhaps a tenth of that by the 20th century, due in large part to the severe and rapid decline in the Subcontinent`s native industries (Maddison, Bairoch, Frank).

#99 Urstruly: I dont know where Adam Smith got his 50% figure from, but it is clearly wrong if one looks at the levels of development around the world in the 19th century.

On th other matters I mentioned in my post, I will conveniently assume your silence as being full agreement with what I wrote. :-)

Re: # 98


tahmed,

....... let`s say, for a minute, that you are right and that the low gdp per capita has been around for ``time immemorial`` and that the military is not responsible for the abdul`s misery ......

..... okay, then who is responsible for not doing anything about raising the per capita gdp so that abdul canbuy shoes for his runny-nose kids and send them to school instead of rummaging in the garbage collecting paper and bones ......... the way i see it, since the army has run the country for most of the last sixty years, it is responsible ........ of course, there is a distinct possibility that abdul`s kids like to play in the garbage - after all, all kids hate school ............

Re: # 98

Adam Smith`s Wealth of Nations

#97 Where did you get the figure that India was 50% of the world`s GDP in the 19th century? This is an obvious absurdity.

And we are not talking about comparisons with the west - recall from the posts below that what we are talking about is whether the military is responsible for low GDP per capita in Pakistan or not. All I am saying is - the low GDP per capita has been there from time immemorial. That`s all. If you would stick to the point at issue rather than going shooting off in other directions, maybe we would actually reach some conclusions.

As for Sirajudaula: he was no big hero either. He lived his lavish life style off the backs of an impoverished people the same as the mughals (or any king anywhere before that) I mentioned above. The british may have been traders, but sirajudaoula simply took as ``tax`` what he needed for his own purposes. You decide who has the moral edge of the two.

Re: # 96

The statistical data contrdicts your claims. Yes, the economy of subcontinent until the 1st quarter of 19th century was agricultural but still it was puting out half of wolrd`s GDP. That is the era we are talking about. If we make a comparison with West, the economy over there was also largely agricultural and trade based based. The use of steam engine in Industry was first started in post 1760 years; whereas economically viable stean engine prime movers were not availble until 1780 after James Watt introduced some cost effective modifications. That was about the same time when British had defeated Sirajul Doula and changed their role in India from traders to Tax collectors.

#95 Urstruly: Let me then try to explain the ``obvious statement`` by taking the core part of it:

``The economy in pre-british times in the subcontinent was low-productivity agricultural at best

Low-productivity: Check the average yield per acre of the common crops (wheat, cotton, corn etc.) pre-1970s and post-1970`s (when the ``green revolution`` brought about by better seed, fertilizer, etc. came about).

Agricultural: this is as opposed to an industrial economy. The hallmark of the latter is replacement of animal-muscle with some other form of energy (steam engines e.g. or nuclear reactors). If you know of steam engines being used in pre-british India, then you should write about this amazing find and I am sure you will get a Nobel Prize.

But dont bother to even read books. Look at the monuments all over India - they all demonstrate the lavish life style in which the rulers lived. Given that this lavish life style rested on a low-productive agricultural economy, it follows as certainly as 2 + 2 = 4 that there was not much left to go around. The mughal adminstration system was the mechanism through which the sweat and toil of the ordinary farmer was sucked up to provide the lavish life style of those emperors. And of course, the mughals simply did what rulers did in India and other parts of the world since time immemorial - live off the hard work of the ordinary person who basically tilled the soil without the benefit of tractors and fertilizers and agricultural research centers producing quality seed.

Re: # 94

``Obvious statements`` mean squat when we talk about eras. How about this obvious statement ``In this day and age in American society a woman is raped every 20 seconds; this is a society of ghouls and decadence``. The statement is obvious, it is even supported by verifiable statistical data but conclusion is wrong. In you case, your contention about India, is not only not supported by hard evidence, and data but your conclusions are wrong as well.

Adam Smith does not present his opinions by visiting some Nabobs and thinking that whole India was rich; he based his opinion on hard financial data of East India Company and British Government. In Wealth of Nations he refers to that data just as a scholarly thesis is written.

Urstruly: My statement that The economy in pre-british times in the subcontinent was low-productivity agricultural at best, and hunter-gatherer at worst (this included all the invading tribes that entered India), and as such readily falls in the category of what is today referred to as ``backward`` or ``poverty stricken`` economies. is so obvious that you dont even need to refer to any historian to corraborate it.

But since you chose to rely on books and not on common sense, then I would recommend any good book on the economic history of India. The last one I read (by Keay) is a good one. Then we can talk.

… there is nothing wrong with Pakistan. All you do-gooders and well-wishers need to get a life …

This discussion reminds me of a similar useless discussion … one at a lunch table in an Indian restaurant, in San Francisco bay area. It was a valima buffet. Apparently someone got laid and we all got to eat. A win-win situation of sorts …

… surely enough, I found myself sitting at a table of same-age ex-pat Pakistani men … all working in software industry pulling 6 figures, dressed in dark suites and ill-matched ties, even as they stuffed nihari in their close-shaven faces … who could not stop suggesting what Benazir and Nawaz Shariff should be doing for Pakistan … and how now we should all be heading social movements in Pakistan … and similar idle crap. And I could not take it anymore …

… so I blurted out … “and what exactly is wrong with Pakistan anyway …? If people in a nation have been hungry and naked for millenniums, why is it that today, precisely at 1:35 pm on a Sunday afternoon, that it is a problem? And what makes you think Nawaz Shariff or Benazir wants to help Pakistan anyway? Give me one good reason why they should. Benazir is building a palace somewhere in England and Nawaz is looting the country with both hands … and why should they do otherwise???

… look, we are all married to lovely Punjabi women … there is a buffet table laid out … and it is our day off from corporate life. So let’s enjoy the food, go home and make love to our wives, and take an afternoon nap. Sounds good?

… and if you really want to discuss what’s wrong with Pakistan, let`s do it when people are no longer starved and there is enough for everyone to go around. Only then will I buy your argument that something is “wrong” ... which needs to be discussed. A change as big as this should not go unnoticed; it begs to be understood. And if you can’t explain it, it will turn against you soon and will drag down your loved ones, those still residing there in big bangalows behind iron gates. So as long as there is poverty, misery, and death, everything is fine … it`s business as usual ...”

This pretty much killed the convesation. Faces at the table were staring at me as if I have said something blasphemous. I still see these folks from time to time. Apparently they still remember that Sunady afternoon. I do too ... still miss the lamb biryani ...

Re: # 88

``but pakistann benefited from the mass migration of educated middle class muslims (esp west pakistan). ``

It was a mixed bag. The migration did provide an educated administrative force to run the bureaucratic machinery but it sure did not provide a sustainable leadership. The leadership that migrated faced a huge problem establishing their roots in the local constituencies. For example, the first Prime Minister of Pakistan Liaqat Ali Khan had no constituency in Pakistan proper. He was elected thru a constituency that was now in India (probably Saharnpur); he was elected by Legislative Assembly as a PM. That could be recorded as a wierd and unusual circumstance in the history of democracy. In addition, the migration of Muslim from India caused formidable demogarphic and cultural problems; whereas in case of India the impact of migration was minimal in my opinion.

Re: # 90

``that is a factual statement``

Corroborated by what facts and what evidence? Your statement sounds more like your personal opinion, based on selective reading of history, and your prejudices. Can you refer to any authoritative writers or manuscripts suppoting your contentions. I cited about half a dozen from both end of the spectrum, can you name a few.

#89 urstruly: please note the sentence that I had put in bold - that is a factual statement. Do you seriously think that I am wrong in saying that?

And if you agree that what I am saying is factually correct, how do you reconcile that with what you write in #89?

Re: # 84

Your contentions are still not factually correct. As a matter of fact, Adam Smith, and the author of Rise and Fall of Nations (forgetting his name) both have mentioned the wealth and standard and living of an ordinary Hindustani pre-19th century with amazement(according to the standards of those days). Their contentions are also corroborated by the old writers like Abdul Haleem Sharrar, who is considered the first novelist in Urdu language. Mirza Ghalib`s letters also shed light on existing and declining standard of living of natives. I read an account written by Abdul-Haleem about the life of ordinary people during the last last few years of Aurangzeb Alamgir, which is truly eye opening.

An anology of Hindustani wealth of that day can be made with Americans society of today, where 99% of popoulation does not go for a dinner at Ritz Carlton but still enjoys a relative prosperity. Sir Syed Ahmad Khan`s ``Asaar-ul-Sinadeed`` is also an eye opener, which is a commentary on all the ancient buildings in India and the institutions they housed. Trust me, we were not swinging on the trees before British came in and ``civilized`` us.

Both writers, Adam Smith and that of Rise and Fall of Nations describe a list a whole array of taxes that British imposed on local population to rob them of their money.