Teaching Science Badly – and Well
Pervez Hoodbhoy March 1, 2007
#148 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on March 4, 2007 12:39:14 pm
#142 by hamidm2
``........ this really comes as a shock to me !......... if the koran wasn`t translated into persian.....``
You see that is why you need to study history – it challenges your assumptions.
``........ this really comes as a shock to me !......... if the koran wasn`t translated into persian.....``
You see that is why you need to study history – it challenges your assumptions.
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#147 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on March 4, 2007 12:34:31 pm
#129 by hamidm2
“we don`t want people with humanities degrees to go back ! ....... remember syed qutub?..... he came to america to get a humanities degree and this is what he learned about you :
......... then he went back to join hassan al-banaa`s al-qaeda ......... and if i am not mistaken, hassan turabi, another shining light of al-qaeda, has a phd in law from the sorbonne ......... and let`s not even talk about sir muhammad allama iqbal who studied philosophy in germany and returned to cause more havoc than masadi can ever dream of ..........”
As usual you don’t get the point unless I hit it over your head with it. You cant even claim the success of Agha Khan medical college on the talent of you science dans. It has all to do with Agha Khan and their sects philosophy of creating such institutions for their success. Where as idiots like you (science graduates) even in the best of circumstances were only able to make marginal differences to institutions that you have mentioned Syed Qutb, Illama Iqbal and Maudoodi have had the lasting societal impact on the Muslim ummah.
So the point being that you can study all the science you want but it is going to be meaningless unless you can reconcile modernity with your purpose in life, your conception of what is good, and ultimately its place in your salvation.
“we don`t want people with humanities degrees to go back ! ....... remember syed qutub?..... he came to america to get a humanities degree and this is what he learned about you :
......... then he went back to join hassan al-banaa`s al-qaeda ......... and if i am not mistaken, hassan turabi, another shining light of al-qaeda, has a phd in law from the sorbonne ......... and let`s not even talk about sir muhammad allama iqbal who studied philosophy in germany and returned to cause more havoc than masadi can ever dream of ..........”
As usual you don’t get the point unless I hit it over your head with it. You cant even claim the success of Agha Khan medical college on the talent of you science dans. It has all to do with Agha Khan and their sects philosophy of creating such institutions for their success. Where as idiots like you (science graduates) even in the best of circumstances were only able to make marginal differences to institutions that you have mentioned Syed Qutb, Illama Iqbal and Maudoodi have had the lasting societal impact on the Muslim ummah.
So the point being that you can study all the science you want but it is going to be meaningless unless you can reconcile modernity with your purpose in life, your conception of what is good, and ultimately its place in your salvation.
#146 Posted by plats8 on March 4, 2007 12:07:42 pm
Re: # 142
Hamidm,
But you are talking about a very subcontinental version of Islam, which has fallen
terribly out of favour with the more righteous amongst Pakistanis. Thank god there`s
still enough austerity-free Islam to go around...
Hamidm,
But you are talking about a very subcontinental version of Islam, which has fallen
terribly out of favour with the more righteous amongst Pakistanis. Thank god there`s
still enough austerity-free Islam to go around...
#145 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on March 4, 2007 12:06:33 pm
#141 by zeemax
I am sorry man! This is too darned pivotal so tedious or not, lets delve into it as deeply as we can. Now you have introduced another term that you are a fundamentalist but not a fanatic. Wait just a minute … When it comes to Islam both these terms are meaningless. The only terminology that can be used is whether you are observant or you are not. Either you follow Islam or you don’t. There are no gradations, no moderation, no enlightened moderation, fanaticism etc. They just do not apply to Islam.
Either you accept the literal word of God and you observe it to the best of your ability …. And if you don’t accept it (mind you not observe it)….. aap daira e islam sey kharij hein.
I am sorry man! This is too darned pivotal so tedious or not, lets delve into it as deeply as we can. Now you have introduced another term that you are a fundamentalist but not a fanatic. Wait just a minute … When it comes to Islam both these terms are meaningless. The only terminology that can be used is whether you are observant or you are not. Either you follow Islam or you don’t. There are no gradations, no moderation, no enlightened moderation, fanaticism etc. They just do not apply to Islam.
Either you accept the literal word of God and you observe it to the best of your ability …. And if you don’t accept it (mind you not observe it)….. aap daira e islam sey kharij hein.
#144 Posted by TOLKININ on March 4, 2007 12:05:57 pm
#143 Mallik is Right
Islamic artists were 500 years ahead of Western scientists ,
By Steve Connor, Science Editor
Published: 23 February 2007
Islamic artists were exploiting a mathematical principle to decorate buildings with complicated patterns of tiles more than 500 years before its discovery in the West.
The decorative tilework that adorns some medieval Islamic buildings has been found to use basic geometric shapes that form a complex and highly intricate tiling pattern which does not repeat itself.
In modern mathematics the principle of non-repeating patterns on a flat surface is known as quasicrystal geometry, and the most famous example is known as Penrose tiling, after the Oxford mathematician Roger Penrose, who was thought to have discovered it 30 years ago.
However, two American mathematicians believe that near-perfect quasicrystal geometry was used by Islamic scholars earlier than the 15th century to decorate the walls of important buildings.
Peter Lu, of Harvard University, and Paul Steinhardt, of Princeton University, said advanced quasicrystal geometry based on 10-sided shapes is seen in the tiling patterns of mosques and madrasas of the Middle East and central Asia, predating its discovery by Western mathematicians by 500 years.
``It could be proof of a major role of mathematics in medieval Islamic art, or it could have been just a way for artisans to construct their art more easily,`` said Mr Lu. ``At the very least it shows us that a culture we often don`t credit enough was far more advanced than we thought before.``
In keeping with the Islamic tradition of not depicting images of people or animals, many religious buildings were decorated with geometric star-and-polygon patterns, often overlaid with a zigzag network of lines.
Lu and Steinhardt show in a study published in the journal Science that by the 13th century Islamic artisans had begun producing patterns using a small set of decorated, polygonal tiles which they call ``girih`` tiles.
Art historians have until now assumed that the intricate tilework had been created using straight edges and compasses, but the study in Science suggests the Islamic artisans were using a basic toolkit of girih tiles made up of shapes such as the decagon, pentagon, diamond and hexagon.
``Straight edges and compasses work fine for the recurring symmetries of the simplest patterns we see, but it probably required far more powerful tools to fully explain the elaborate tiling with decagonal [10-sided] symmetry,`` Mr Lu said.
``Individually placing and drafting hundreds of decagons with a straight edge would have been exceedingly cumbersome. It`s more likely these artisans used particular tiles that we`ve found by decomposing the artwork,`` he said.
The scientists found that by 1453, Islamic architects had created overlapping patterns with girih tiles at two sites to produce near-perfect quasicrystalline patterns that did not repeat themselves. ``The fact that we can explain so many sets of tiling, from such a wide range of architectural structures throughout the Islamic world with the same set of tiles, makes this an incredibly interesting universal picture,`` Mr Lu said.
Islamic artists were 500 years ahead of Western scientists ,
By Steve Connor, Science Editor
Published: 23 February 2007
Islamic artists were exploiting a mathematical principle to decorate buildings with complicated patterns of tiles more than 500 years before its discovery in the West.
The decorative tilework that adorns some medieval Islamic buildings has been found to use basic geometric shapes that form a complex and highly intricate tiling pattern which does not repeat itself.
In modern mathematics the principle of non-repeating patterns on a flat surface is known as quasicrystal geometry, and the most famous example is known as Penrose tiling, after the Oxford mathematician Roger Penrose, who was thought to have discovered it 30 years ago.
However, two American mathematicians believe that near-perfect quasicrystal geometry was used by Islamic scholars earlier than the 15th century to decorate the walls of important buildings.
Peter Lu, of Harvard University, and Paul Steinhardt, of Princeton University, said advanced quasicrystal geometry based on 10-sided shapes is seen in the tiling patterns of mosques and madrasas of the Middle East and central Asia, predating its discovery by Western mathematicians by 500 years.
``It could be proof of a major role of mathematics in medieval Islamic art, or it could have been just a way for artisans to construct their art more easily,`` said Mr Lu. ``At the very least it shows us that a culture we often don`t credit enough was far more advanced than we thought before.``
In keeping with the Islamic tradition of not depicting images of people or animals, many religious buildings were decorated with geometric star-and-polygon patterns, often overlaid with a zigzag network of lines.
Lu and Steinhardt show in a study published in the journal Science that by the 13th century Islamic artisans had begun producing patterns using a small set of decorated, polygonal tiles which they call ``girih`` tiles.
Art historians have until now assumed that the intricate tilework had been created using straight edges and compasses, but the study in Science suggests the Islamic artisans were using a basic toolkit of girih tiles made up of shapes such as the decagon, pentagon, diamond and hexagon.
``Straight edges and compasses work fine for the recurring symmetries of the simplest patterns we see, but it probably required far more powerful tools to fully explain the elaborate tiling with decagonal [10-sided] symmetry,`` Mr Lu said.
``Individually placing and drafting hundreds of decagons with a straight edge would have been exceedingly cumbersome. It`s more likely these artisans used particular tiles that we`ve found by decomposing the artwork,`` he said.
The scientists found that by 1453, Islamic architects had created overlapping patterns with girih tiles at two sites to produce near-perfect quasicrystalline patterns that did not repeat themselves. ``The fact that we can explain so many sets of tiling, from such a wide range of architectural structures throughout the Islamic world with the same set of tiles, makes this an incredibly interesting universal picture,`` Mr Lu said.
#143 Posted by malik99 on March 4, 2007 11:56:37 am
tehsin # 140 ``Can you believe it that Islam had been in India for over a thousand years before its people (the mullah) not the aalim had a chance to know what was in the Quran.``
What I cannot believe is that someone living in america can be so ignorant of historical contexts!
You have correctly alluded to the fact that there was no dearth of ``aalims`` who had mastery of arabic just as good, if not better, than arabs. In fact, until well into the 1920s, being a Faazil in arabic and persian was one of the standard achievement for anyone who wanted to be called an ``aalim``.
But where you seem to be lacking in context is that this belated translation of holy book into new languages was not unique to Islam. Perhaps its because inquisitive mind is only restricted to finding faults in Muslims, but even Bible didnt get translated from Latin into English and other languages until well into 1500s - nearly 1500 years after it was put together. And Hamidm would be justified in exclaiming ``So what were christians practicing before that?!`` And lets not forget that that literacy rates of east / west / north / south until the beginning of 20th century were close to single digits - with perhaps only exception in the case of muslims beng their religion-sanctioned recitation of quran.
We realize that these days every ``enlighetened`` person worth his weight in salt is hell bent on giving his two cents on how best to reform Islam, however it is important to keep one`s context straight if one does not want to make a fool out of himself - and that too on chowk!
What I cannot believe is that someone living in america can be so ignorant of historical contexts!
You have correctly alluded to the fact that there was no dearth of ``aalims`` who had mastery of arabic just as good, if not better, than arabs. In fact, until well into the 1920s, being a Faazil in arabic and persian was one of the standard achievement for anyone who wanted to be called an ``aalim``.
But where you seem to be lacking in context is that this belated translation of holy book into new languages was not unique to Islam. Perhaps its because inquisitive mind is only restricted to finding faults in Muslims, but even Bible didnt get translated from Latin into English and other languages until well into 1500s - nearly 1500 years after it was put together. And Hamidm would be justified in exclaiming ``So what were christians practicing before that?!`` And lets not forget that that literacy rates of east / west / north / south until the beginning of 20th century were close to single digits - with perhaps only exception in the case of muslims beng their religion-sanctioned recitation of quran.
We realize that these days every ``enlighetened`` person worth his weight in salt is hell bent on giving his two cents on how best to reform Islam, however it is important to keep one`s context straight if one does not want to make a fool out of himself - and that too on chowk!
#142 Posted by hamidm2 on March 4, 2007 11:25:42 am
Re: # 140
tehsin,
........ this really comes as a shock to me !......... if the koran wasn`t translated into persian/hindi/urdu till the 17-1800`s then what the heck were the muslims of india practicing before that ! ........ acutally it wasn`t any better in the 1960`s and 70`s when my mother made me wear the imam zamin, walk under the koran before catching bus to lahore, spit on me to ward off evil spirits and dragged me off to pir sahib of kohat to ask for good grades - i guess all of it worked ....... and it worked well without having to resort to reading the koran, praying five times a day or starving to death during ramadhan .......... if that is what islam is all about, i am all for it ..........
tehsin,
........ this really comes as a shock to me !......... if the koran wasn`t translated into persian/hindi/urdu till the 17-1800`s then what the heck were the muslims of india practicing before that ! ........ acutally it wasn`t any better in the 1960`s and 70`s when my mother made me wear the imam zamin, walk under the koran before catching bus to lahore, spit on me to ward off evil spirits and dragged me off to pir sahib of kohat to ask for good grades - i guess all of it worked ....... and it worked well without having to resort to reading the koran, praying five times a day or starving to death during ramadhan .......... if that is what islam is all about, i am all for it ..........
#141 Posted by zeemax on March 4, 2007 11:01:25 am
#140 by Tehsinabbasi
Tehsinabbasi, perhaps I should have been clearer. But as I had said in my #116 ``.. please don`t ask me to elaborate. That`ll be too tedious.``. You didn`t get it.
Quran means different levels of things for different people. All of them are right. You can take a single piece of the puzzle i.e. the literal word in any single sentence and believe it, that`s fine. Or you can take a few together and get at a part of it. That`s ok too. Or you can take all the pieces of the entire puzzle and try to solve it. That`s fine as well. In either case, each single piece or several pieces combined cannot be termed false, being part of the whole picture. All they can be termed is `incomplete`.
That is my view. Your understanding, at best, can be temed incomplete, but not false or blasphemous. I have a fundamental view of the entire puzzle, therefore I am a fundamentalist, and not a fanatic. I hope it is clearer now.
Tehsinabbasi, perhaps I should have been clearer. But as I had said in my #116 ``.. please don`t ask me to elaborate. That`ll be too tedious.``. You didn`t get it.
Quran means different levels of things for different people. All of them are right. You can take a single piece of the puzzle i.e. the literal word in any single sentence and believe it, that`s fine. Or you can take a few together and get at a part of it. That`s ok too. Or you can take all the pieces of the entire puzzle and try to solve it. That`s fine as well. In either case, each single piece or several pieces combined cannot be termed false, being part of the whole picture. All they can be termed is `incomplete`.
That is my view. Your understanding, at best, can be temed incomplete, but not false or blasphemous. I have a fundamental view of the entire puzzle, therefore I am a fundamentalist, and not a fanatic. I hope it is clearer now.
#140 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on March 4, 2007 10:38:47 am
#123 by zeemax
Yes it was written by an almost illiterate Bedouin – with the claim that it was the divine, literal and inviolable word of God. To this day even for recitation purposes, pronunciation and diction are emphasized so that it is not misinterpreted in any way.
Any body who attempted to go beyond literal was accused of innovation and paid a heavy price. One of the accusations for the murder of the third Caliph Uthman b. Affan was that he had innovated beyond what was written in the Quran. Even Umar had to back track for his so called innovations. In the subcontinent the first person to finally translate the Quran into …… Persian was Shah Wali Ullah in the mid 1700s and it was his progeny who finally completed the translation into Urdu in around 1800. Can you believe it that Islam had been in India for over a thousand years before its people (the mullah) not the aalim had a chance to know what was in the Quran. It just didn’t happen like that, it was because of assiduous opposition the same sort that we now see against Science.
With so much emphasis on the literal word being all important how can you so easily dismiss it and call upon a deeper understanding of the Quran. More then that by saying what you said you have denied the literal word of God. For me, its okay I do it all the time and am resigned to my fate as a blasphemer (from a literalist point of view). But I am shocked that you, with your fundamentalist persona engage in similar heresy as uncle tom’s (your words) like me. This is a sad day for fundamentalism.
Yes it was written by an almost illiterate Bedouin – with the claim that it was the divine, literal and inviolable word of God. To this day even for recitation purposes, pronunciation and diction are emphasized so that it is not misinterpreted in any way.
Any body who attempted to go beyond literal was accused of innovation and paid a heavy price. One of the accusations for the murder of the third Caliph Uthman b. Affan was that he had innovated beyond what was written in the Quran. Even Umar had to back track for his so called innovations. In the subcontinent the first person to finally translate the Quran into …… Persian was Shah Wali Ullah in the mid 1700s and it was his progeny who finally completed the translation into Urdu in around 1800. Can you believe it that Islam had been in India for over a thousand years before its people (the mullah) not the aalim had a chance to know what was in the Quran. It just didn’t happen like that, it was because of assiduous opposition the same sort that we now see against Science.
With so much emphasis on the literal word being all important how can you so easily dismiss it and call upon a deeper understanding of the Quran. More then that by saying what you said you have denied the literal word of God. For me, its okay I do it all the time and am resigned to my fate as a blasphemer (from a literalist point of view). But I am shocked that you, with your fundamentalist persona engage in similar heresy as uncle tom’s (your words) like me. This is a sad day for fundamentalism.
#139 Posted by arjun2 on March 4, 2007 10:38:11 am
#137 by zeemax on March 4, 2007 10:24am PT
they`re sitting there with dnadas thumbing their noses at the 111 Brigade
That`s because you`re 111 brigade is a bunch of pussies...and their leaders are the same bunch that abandoned the bodies of their soldiers and who stay mum as US forces bomb the crap out of the citizens they`re charged with protesting...
they`re sitting there with dnadas thumbing their noses at the 111 Brigade
That`s because you`re 111 brigade is a bunch of pussies...and their leaders are the same bunch that abandoned the bodies of their soldiers and who stay mum as US forces bomb the crap out of the citizens they`re charged with protesting...
#138 Posted by zeemax on March 4, 2007 10:28:01 am
hamidm2,
... and BTW .. for the very first time in chowk history someone agreed with an opposing view and accepted it ... and it was tehsinabbasi with me. So it is YOU who`s got to be careful ... When your buffoonery runs out, you`re left with little to cover your nakedness .. :~)
... and BTW .. for the very first time in chowk history someone agreed with an opposing view and accepted it ... and it was tehsinabbasi with me. So it is YOU who`s got to be careful ... When your buffoonery runs out, you`re left with little to cover your nakedness .. :~)
#137 Posted by zeemax on March 4, 2007 10:24:06 am
#131 by hamidm2
Little girl from Jamia Hafsa? Man ... you gotta be kidding ... they`re sitting there with dnadas thumbing their noses at the 111 Brigade ...
Little girl from Jamia Hafsa? Man ... you gotta be kidding ... they`re sitting there with dnadas thumbing their noses at the 111 Brigade ...
#136 Posted by sri on March 4, 2007 10:04:49 am
masadi # 122
`` The global pecking order works inspite of the will of the vast majority of humanity ``
Yet another usual retarded response by you. Thankfully the Chinese did not get to read your retarded theories in the 1960s.
Ladies, gentleman and the usual retarded Mullahs,
On one hand you have the practical Chinese example of self-help and self-progress through hardwork and on the other you have the theories of masadi the retard of self-pity and self-resignation. The choice is yours.
#135 Posted by tahmed32 on March 4, 2007 9:56:52 am
#132 social studies, ethics, religious tudies and specially the science may be taught in one`s mother tongue
unrealistic. there are no professional or scientifc or even arts books or journals worth the name written in panjabi and/or urdu. no internet sites either. the best you will find is some urdu/panjabi literature sites and that is all. english is the de facto language in the global marketplace. this is the reality that pakistanis need to understand if they wish to compete for jobs and businesses in the world today.
unrealistic. there are no professional or scientifc or even arts books or journals worth the name written in panjabi and/or urdu. no internet sites either. the best you will find is some urdu/panjabi literature sites and that is all. english is the de facto language in the global marketplace. this is the reality that pakistanis need to understand if they wish to compete for jobs and businesses in the world today.
#134 Posted by tahmed32 on March 4, 2007 9:51:47 am
hamidm: as long as they continue to believe in the book, all other knowledge is superfluous ........
mullah: all knowledge is included in the book-as-rewritten-by-paighambar-maudoodi
confusion worse confounded!!
mullah: all knowledge is included in the book-as-rewritten-by-paighambar-maudoodi
confusion worse confounded!!
#133 Posted by arjun2 on March 4, 2007 9:50:01 am
hoodbhoy`s article is being dissected on paki other blogs..as expected most pakis blame hoodbhoy for creating an alternate reality with his article..it`s as if hoodbhoy writing this article somehow magically altered the reality and brought it to the state that is...if this reality altering article hadn`t been written, Pakiland would have institutes comparable to the IITs and there would be tons of paki profs in US schools...
http://www.dawn.com/2007/03/04/letted.htm#4
HEC’s ride to fantasyland
Dr Hoodhboy’s typically trenchant and compelling plea (letter, Feb 28) to stay the HEC’s incontinence will surely be met by yet another ludicrous response from the HEC’s full-time media brigade. Before the reader gets swayed by the magic carpet ride to the HEC’s fantasyland, I would like to cite the case of a leading private sector university in Lahore which too is flapping its wings to launch a billion-rupee plus engineering school.
While they have managed to net a well-reputed and competent dean from a leading US school, finding quality faculty to fill the fourscore or more faculty positions is turning into a bit of a nightmare.
In keeping with the standards of academic merit he is used to, the dean rejected all but one faculty member from the much-trumpeted computer science faculty the university already had. And as our universities go, the faculty in question is arguably among the best, if not the best in Pakistan.
Dr Hoodhboy’s concern about the quality of the faculty is absolutely basic and essential; and even if a few young scholars do emerge from the droves the HEC seems intent on shipping them abroad, including many to dubious institutions, where they will be unable to lead and build the intended plethora of modern engineering schools.
If the HEC’s ambitions were just confined to fanciful power point presentations, we could all just get on with our business. Sadly, the HEC’s ride to fantasyland requires very scarce and almost gargantuan resources, which this poor country can hardly afford.
In this scenario, Dr Hoodhboy’s suggestion to try and build just two engineering universities would appear to be a challenge worth pursuing. The plans the HEC has will only lead to more relics marring an already decrepit and desolate academic landscape.
PROF WASIF M. KHAN
Lahore
http://www.dawn.com/2007/03/04/letted.htm#4
HEC’s ride to fantasyland
Dr Hoodhboy’s typically trenchant and compelling plea (letter, Feb 28) to stay the HEC’s incontinence will surely be met by yet another ludicrous response from the HEC’s full-time media brigade. Before the reader gets swayed by the magic carpet ride to the HEC’s fantasyland, I would like to cite the case of a leading private sector university in Lahore which too is flapping its wings to launch a billion-rupee plus engineering school.
While they have managed to net a well-reputed and competent dean from a leading US school, finding quality faculty to fill the fourscore or more faculty positions is turning into a bit of a nightmare.
In keeping with the standards of academic merit he is used to, the dean rejected all but one faculty member from the much-trumpeted computer science faculty the university already had. And as our universities go, the faculty in question is arguably among the best, if not the best in Pakistan.
Dr Hoodhboy’s concern about the quality of the faculty is absolutely basic and essential; and even if a few young scholars do emerge from the droves the HEC seems intent on shipping them abroad, including many to dubious institutions, where they will be unable to lead and build the intended plethora of modern engineering schools.
If the HEC’s ambitions were just confined to fanciful power point presentations, we could all just get on with our business. Sadly, the HEC’s ride to fantasyland requires very scarce and almost gargantuan resources, which this poor country can hardly afford.
In this scenario, Dr Hoodhboy’s suggestion to try and build just two engineering universities would appear to be a challenge worth pursuing. The plans the HEC has will only lead to more relics marring an already decrepit and desolate academic landscape.
PROF WASIF M. KHAN
Lahore
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