Teaching Science Badly – and Well

Re: # 151 Tahmed32
``Speaking for myself, I am very comfortable with being a muslim because religion in our household was first and foremost developing a good character - the thing that was emphasized were basic values like being honest at all times....``

Was accepting responsibility part of this cheery upbringing? In case you are wondering what this is in reference to, I am referring to the fact that you have no qualms defending General-President Musharraf with a call to arms when your country`s neighbors threaten to pay back in kind when he sends murderous agents to their civilian centers, but express no such calls to action when he engages in such provocative acts in the first place.

Zeemax ji
This combo of Hamidm ji and Abbasi ji is deadly for you. You are also well read but your expertise seems to be more on economic issues.
Actually your transformation during last few months to born again muslim is your weak point. You are not strong on history and you can`t beat facts laid out by abbassi ji.
If you want to compete then go back to your earlier version and try to argue rationally as you used to.
Regards

#176 by Tehsinabbasi,

No. Actually I was going to reply but then thought you had become busy elsewhere.

You said:

... another term that you are a fundamentalist but not a fanatic. ... both these terms are meaningless .... Either you follow Islam or you don’t. There are no gradations, no moderation, no enlightened moderation, fanaticism etc ... Either you accept the literal word of God and you observe it to the best of your ability …. And if you don’t accept it ….. aap daira e islam sey kharij hein.

The selectively picked literal word with all its limitations is there for those to believe, to the exclusion of all else, who would do so. But Quran actually discourages it. There`s a lot of emphasis on `mukammal` or `complete` as you would know is repeated over and over.

In #141, I had said :You can take a single piece of the puzzle i.e. the literal word in any single sentence and believe it .... Or you can take a few together and get at a part of it. ... Or you can take all the pieces of the entire puzzle and try to solve it ...

That`s the difference between a fanatic and a fundamentalist. The fanatic believes in a single piece of the puzzle or cetrain aspect/s of it (the Sufis and the perpetually moderate etc also fall in this category, not only whom you refer to) and either does not believe or is ignorant of all other, while a fundamentalist is aware of all pieces of the puzzle and able to bring it together in a single picture. Each piece is a part of Islam, and none can be rejected. Jihad (or extremism if you prefer) becomes one of these vital pieces when warranted, and not only that, it becomes the penultimate ingredient to achieve Tauheed which is the very basis of the entire faith.

The Jihadis whom many term as fanatics, are a lot less fanatical than others etc in understanding the entire Islamic socio-political system which the sufis and the `perpetually moderate` reject. Without a strong political and military power, Islam is incomplete.

Rgds

#178 by Humsab

What facts has AbbasiJi laid out contrary to my assertions?

... contd ... #179

You may also find this earlier post interesting as for your ``This is where it becomes crucial to believe in a benevolent, beneficent and compassionate God.

171 by zeemax on March 28, 2006: Apostasy and Islam

Well. Let`s see what part you can take out as not being relevant any more. Of the 5 pillars of Islam, the first one i.e. declaration of `Tauheed` is Spiritual. Of the remaining four, three are rituals (Namz, Roza, Hajj), while one (Zakaat) is Social. Similarly, in the edicts of day-to-day behavioural life, the virtues to be cherished e.g. cleanliness, generosity, kindness, mercy etc. are all universal values and unremarkable.

Now, what combination of the above with the exclusion of which would you prefer? You can`t take out Tauheed as well as the spiritual &/or the universal social values because it would be silly to do so, and that`s the stuff of Sufis and the mild sects such as Ismailis/khojas etc. You can discard the rituals and keep the others I guess. But still what remains doesn`t really constitute a force motivating and powerful enough to incite high emotions in anyone over and above, seemingly, their own personal interests.

What really sets apart Islam from anything else is that `other` factor i.e. Jihad, which many term as the `sixth` pillar.

Now, If you take `Jihad` out of the Islamic equation, the balance becomes quite ordinary and nothing appealing, but merely a combination of universally accepted spiritual / humanistic values plus some rituals i.e. rather sterile and certainly nothing to transform an entire mindset. However, when you `include` Jihad, the combination becomes extremely potent.

That`s why I maintain that the `true` Muslims are only the Jihadis. Either you`re a Jihadi, or you`re not a Muslim at all in its true letter and spirit.

Rgds

zeemax: you write Either you`re a Jihadi, or you`re not a Muslim at all in its true letter and spirit.

How long have you had this feeling? Is it accompanied by a sore throat? Any signs of dizziness or swelling around the ankles?

:-)

#182 by tahmed32

Actually I found Humsab`s comment interesting about my being a `born again Muslim`. I don`t think that I am. It was only after 9/11 that I delved into Islam to see what all the fuss was about, and what I found was amazing. I still do not follow any rituals, but I do believe there`s something very profound to it all. Quite intriguing.

I will again quote a previous post from the same board:

#316 by zeemax on March 29, 2006

Dost_Mittar Saheb says in #205 that `` ...there is no political islam in any of those pillars.``

Sure there is no politics in the 5 pillars, but the `sixth` pillar i.e. Jihad is all about politics.

Was it Somerset Maugham who had said ``Money is like a sixth sense, without which you cannot make much of the other five? It`s just like that. In fact, 99% of Muslims get by easily with just 4 out of 5 i.e. Namaz, Roza, Zakat and Hajj. It is the sixth pillar of Jihad that creates problems, isn`t it?

It is because without the `sixth` pillar, the first pillar of `Tauheed` i.e. oneness of/with God is un-attainable. Never mind the rituals. These are good for nothing. Remember that ONLY `shaheeds` get the first birth in Heaven at the `same` level as none other than prophets, while mere mortal Muslims will be first given a brief sojourn in hell doing chain dragging and pus sipping duties before being granted a third-class seat on heaven express heading to eternity.

Highlighted above is the literal word. Do you believe it literally ? Many do, but I don`t. It is whatever level of understanding it takes to make a point, and that point is Tauheed.

:~)

Re: # 181 zeemax {``...What really sets apart Islam ...is ... Jihad, ... the `sixth` pillar.
...when you `include` Jihad, the combination becomes extremely potent. ... `true` Muslims are only the Jihadis. Either you`re a Jihadi, or you`re not a Muslim at all ...``}

Hummm... quite a strong opinion... somewhat `extreme` in it`s content.

Since there is no officially sanctioned clergy in Islam that intercededs (between the individual and his deity) or even interprets the doctrine, it is entirely legitimate for each individual to have his personalized, custom-built version. This `democratisation` of religion is one of the appeals of Islam.

Following are two other views on Jihad.

The first one (CLICK THIS) is from a pro-Islam, some would say ``apologist,`` source.

The second one (CLICK HERE) is very anti-Islamic and it is presented in the form of an interview of Bill Wagner. Wagner claims that 97% of Jihad is the violent kind and 3% is the peaceful inner-struggle kind.

Unto each his own.

...SR

#184 by SR

SR, Jihad is qualified by `when warranted`. It is not an unending process. It has a beginning and an end and then one can be as moderate as one wants (i.e. the 3%).

Zeemax #185,

``SR, Jihad is qualified by `when warranted``` - As SR indicated, do I get to decide my
own little Jihad as and when I please, buttressed with some sort of an argument ?

``But still what remains doesn`t really constitute a force motivating and powerful enough
to incite high emotions in anyone over and above, seemingly, their own personal
interests``

I, and surely many others in this forum, are well aware of several chemicals (and
certain indoctrination systems) that could induce a similar state of mind. And your claim
is that THIS is what sets Islam apart from others ?

mr. abbasi & mr. ahmed, quite an interesting discussion here eventho it`s removed from science. Danke

``This is where it becomes crucial to believe in a benevolent, beneficent and compassionate God, who understands our frailties and forgives our trespasses.``

This is horseshit. A ``GOD`` experience or whatever you have is an entirely personal thing like person suffering from delusions cannot ``communicate`` others the exact nature of his delusions.

Your condition of what is crucial or not is ENTIRELY self-serving, therefore, it CANNOT be communicated let alone be understood by others. Unless, you come out and say that what you are talking about with these three letters G.O.D can be verified or rationalized which will make your assertion open to rebuttal and ridicule.

Maggots and Momins:
It is entirely possible that resident whackjob mr. zeemax have heard theories of how Momins` (the practising muslims) deadbodies remain preserved in their graves until they are called upon by Allah on judgement day. Like, a ``famous`` instance in history when one egyptian or north african warlord Noor ud Din Zangi came over to medina to preserve the sanctity of Mohammad`s cadaver as ``jews`` were supposedly digging a tunnel under medina mosque to take away Mohammad`s body. According to the ``historical`` account, Zangi successfully thwarted that gruesome plot and himself went inside that tunnel that had reached to the grave of Mohammad. Implication being Mohammad`s body lay preserved to this day inside his grave in Medinah as would any Momin`s when he dies.

#184 by SR

[Unto each his own. ]

To each his own, eh? No right and wrong, no fact and fiction?

Believe what you want?

You are an educated person. I sometimes wonder, how, confronted by all this, you can still believe what you want to believe. How do you do it?

#188 by Raw_Dust

MY GOD!!!

Another interlocutor! You almost blindsided me, I didn’t expect such a violent reaction from the left. But let me regroup, and put myself together for your onslaught.

First of all the delusion that I am suffering from is shared by nearly 85% of the people of this planet, and they have suffered it for a few millenniums. As a matter of fact there has yet to be a society on this earth which has survived without God. Communism and socialism which tried to create a society without IT, could not survive a generation. So your kind, which has to be lumped together with agnostics, humanists and other theists, is a tiny minority which is new, has not been tested through time and stands on very thin logic and what you call rationalization.

Now let me address this question in a manner that you were hoping that I would– through rationality. you are absolutely right that I am a rational being. But rationality is just one component of me and it is really not the component which rules me. I am ruled by the other side of me which you can call my true self, this is where my likes and dislikes are. I make my decisions based upon my likes and dislikes (emotionally) and then try to justify them rationally. So where as you may have killed your emotional self and made the determination that your life is nothing more then unending calculations. I have not made any such sacrifice – I embrace my humanity, my love, my passions …. all the things that make life worth living.

So deep within my being I feel the presence of this Goodness. The One who gently prods me to do the right thing. Who is my Moral Compass. Who wants me to stay on the straight and narrow (sirat e mustaqeem). Can I justify it rationally? I think I have. But feel free to rebut and ridicule.

TehsinAbbasi: You say you need the ``One`` to ``Prod`` you to follow the ``Moral Compass``. From the rest of your post, the implication is that anyone who does not get this ``Prod`` is Immoral. What makes you so sure that everyone needs the ``Prod`` (in other words, visions of the Eternal Carrot and Stick) in order to be Moral?