Teaching Science Badly – and Well

#75 by hamidm2

Oye Khabees!

Stick to the subject and don’t go wild on me. I was restricting myself to Muslims so when I say a disproportionate representation of them are in science classes that is precisely what I mean Indians and Chinese don’t seem to have our problem.

“out of the hundred, ten commit suicide because they realize they are not as smart as their parents led them to believe and another forty take up sociology, history, greek mythology and philosophy so that they can make easy a`s and drink more beer”

By this logic 40 percent of Muslims who are sent to America for higher education should be humanities graduates. You are crazy if you think any of them go back with such degrees.

But you miss the point – why is it that all these great science graduates like you who went back to their respective Muslim countries, did not bring about a scientific revolution in their societies. They could have fostered a sense of wonder, a realization of all the possibilities that such a path to discovery offers. It wouldn’t have been unique in history if this had happened.

We have a very vivid and clear example of U.S Commodore Perry who sailed into Japanese harbor in 1854. Isolationist Japan was helpless in preventing such a bold maneuver. They ended up being so impressed with the science, gadgetry and the mini railroad coach that he brought with him, that they went all out to learn science and to advance like the West. From no infrastructure to building their own planes they accomplished in a few decades and by the second world war they had their own aircraft carriers their own planes and their own weapon plants.

What is it in our genes, or in our water, or in our culture or lest I say religion that has prevented us from taking up this course which even the Indians and Chinese have adopted. That is my question.

#109 & #111 by zeemax


Maggot meal:

You continue to bring this subject up every chance you get. I have a few questions of my own for you.

Are you saying that you will not be maggot meal?

Beyond this it is all a realm of hope and competing myths. But still I would like to know which one you subscribe to. So do you think:

- That you will be transported to Junnah and have your 72 hoors right away or do you believe that you will have to wait in your grave till judgment day when you will be summoned to answer for your deeds.
- Isn’t that a long time to wait, because the ones you admire so much didn’t believe that judgment day was so far away. Forget maggots you’d be lucky to find dirt their.
- Is your body you and the spirit just the breath in it? Isn’t the conception of heaven that has been sold to you contain nothing but hedonistic pleasures, eat fruit, drink sharab e tahura, screw hoors and ghilmans.
- If that is what your eternity will be like, Why bother - go to the playboy mansion its all there. Even that, if you are anything more then a pig, you will get sick of it in a couple of years. There is more to us then being an eating, fukking machine (a pig).

#112 by Tehsinabbasi,

What is it in our genes, or in our water, or in our culture or lest I say religion that has prevented us from taking up this course which even the Indians and Chinese have adopted. That is my question.

Firstly, do not take hamidm or his contentions seriously. His buffoonery is just meant for his own amusement as well as some here. He is a lost soul who does not know whether he`s coming or going ... that`s why he rejects history because he finds himself a misfit in any and all kinds of history.

Next, let me answer this question for you.

There`s nothing in our genes to prevent us from taking any course, and it hasn`t. The premise is wrong. However, Muslims are not willing to forego their religion and culture for accelerated progress because Muslims have never been completely vanquished and overwhelmed as a people as the Japanese, Chinese and the Indians have, thereby forcing the latter to adapt their conquerors` culture, ways and assimilate just in order to survive.

As for science & technology, these are commonplace disciplines which can be bought off the shelf or developed in-house with little effort. The examples are everywhere such as nuclear proliferation even in N. Korea which is termed as being in the dark ages where ploughs are still used for harvest, not even tractors.

So I really don`t understand what`s the big deal about it. In the larger picture, political dominance is more important than acquiring this petty IT stuff which everyone complains about. As I said before, the best IT talent is in the downtrodden Romania rather than your examples of China and India. China merely copies (just as Japan did in the beginning), and India merely types code. The innovation is elsewhere where the money, time, and the political power is to fund such innovation, mainly in Europe and then USA to some extent.

As an example of engineering skill, the clay pipe watering system in the Shalamar Gardens of Lahore was only replaced in the 1980`s after 200 (+) years of flawless functioning.

So, the Muslim focus is on achieving political dominance, and with it, the control of resources. Once that is done, you will see a renaissance all over again in science, arts & literature. After all, it has only been 500 years since the Muslim dominance in all these fields began to wane.

Military and political power comes first.

Ref#113
[What is it in our genes, or in our water, or in our culture or lest I say religion that has prevented us from taking up this course which even the Indians and Chinese have adopted. That is my question.]

Dear Tehsin

This is Islamic predicament. Muslim rationalise and justify everything in Islam by what it is not. To be more specific
1. Islam is violent but Muslim insists it is peaceful.

2. Mohammad has not shown any compassion in his life eg. killinh of non-muslims, having sex with girls whose husband he killed same day. But muslims insist that Mohammad is compassionate.

3. Islam subjugates and treats women like animals or like personal property. But Muslim and Muslimina`s insist that Islam raised the status of women.

4. Islam perpetuate the idolatory that is the worship of `place holder` or Idols instead of the real thing. In fact Mohammad is the biggest idol in Islam. In other relegions it is humans who worship gos but in Islam it god and his angels who worship Mohammad.

5. Mohammad and his companions were barbarians but Muslim insist that they were most civilized human being that ever walked upon the face of earth.

I can keep on going. This mind set which insist `War is Peace` and `False is true` is the biggest enemy of Muslims. Beacuse rest of the world does not see it like this. And that is the cause of victim hood.

Science demands if an hypothesis is wrong then you must accept it.

Only path for the Muslims is to leave Islam, as I did.

#113 by Tehsinabbasi

Okay. Even though this is the `Fundamentals of Existence 101`, since you have asked, I shall answer. But please don`t ask me to elaborate. That`ll be too tedious.

- Are you saying that you will not be maggot meal?

No. The emphasis is on `you`.

- That you will be transported to Junnah and have your 72 hoors right away or do you believe that you will have to wait in your grave till judgment day when you will be summoned to answer for your deeds.

No. I don`t think that`s what Quran means literally.

- Isn’t that a long time to wait, because the ones you admire so much didn’t believe that judgment day was so far away. Forget maggots you’d be lucky to find dirt their.

See above.

- Is your body you and the spirit just the breath in it? Isn’t the conception of heaven that has been sold to you contain nothing but hedonistic pleasures, eat fruit, drink sharab e tahura, screw hoors and ghilmans.

You take a false premise and continue to build upon it. I told you in the beginning I don`t believe all that.

- If that is what your eternity will be like, Why bother - go to the playboy mansion its all there. Even that, if you are anything more then a pig, you will get sick of it in a couple of years. There is more to us then being an eating, fukking machine (a pig).

See above. You`re just making an assumption about what I think and then running away with it in your silly rage to prove I don`t know what .... My opinions have nothing to do with your assumptions.

Re your last sentence in the para above, what is that `more`? I would really like to know. It also appears you think there`s an `eternity`. And what could be that?

:~)

#115 by ramchandar

Aah .. that`s at-least one victory for faithfreedom.org ... the power of the internet ..

Congratulations.

Ref#117

Dear Zee

It not victory for faithfreedom.org. It is victory for Pakistani writer Anwar Shaikh and his book Islam - An Arab Imperialism.

Ref#117

Zee you did not comment on the content of #115

#116 by zeemax

“No. I don`t think that`s what Quran means literally.”

Ay Muslim! Try to understand the meaning of Muslim. Muslim means the one who has submitted to Islam and to the will of God. You say I DON’T THINK! Who gave you the right to think when it comes to the Quran ‘literally’. Go back and examine your faith, don’t be blasphemous like me.

#119 by ramchandar

What part of the content of #115 do you want me to comment upon? All this has been discussed threadbare time and again, and perhaps you`re new but then you can search for those discussions.

Re: # 122

Massadi Mian:

``....it is not the result of knowledge but a manipulation of knowledge to perverse ends....``

Manipulation of knowledge, requires knowledge. Just as you are manipulating the little knowledge that you have. What you fail to understand is that there is nothing wrong in manipulating knowledge, it only creates more knowledge.

anil writes <<< The pecking order has been created through the use of knowledge and human mind >>>

Another ignorant response by you. The global pecking order works inspite of the will of the vast majority of humanity, it is not the result of knowledge but a manipulation of knowledge to perverse ends. The human mind and ideas have less to do with it than wealth and power. Knowledge and products of the human mind, through necessity are in its service as hired hands and whores. In our world knowledge and men of knowledge are not determinants but dependant variables, they are acted upon but are quite powerless to act except in enhancing the status quo...

Hamid mian, one man`s criteria for failure might be another`s criteria for success. The fact that waderas that the World Bank is happy to employ feel threatened by a mere sociology lecturer says quite a bit for who won and who lost......think about it

#120 by Tehsinabbasi

If you can claim to study aristotle and the like deeply, I suggest you do the same with Quran. Unless of-course you think it was written by an illiterate bedouin, in which case you may not deem it to be worthy of further thought.

Zeemax #81,

``But Hamidm, to change the unpalatable subject and on another point, perhaps you know that the best mathematical and IT talent is neither with Chinese nor the hinjus nor anywhere in the USA. It is in Romania and the Czech Republic .. and neighbouring regions.``

Hmm...could you please tell us about a few recent mathematical breakthroughs that have
emerged from Romania or Czech Republic in recent times ?

Also, what does North Korea acquiring nuclear weapon technology (which is very modular)
have anything to do with their science and engineering competence ?

hamidm to naqshbandi #108 ``all this stuff about `` science and religion occupy two very different spheres of human existence`` is utter nonsense

I beg to differ. You fly a plane based on science, not religion (Except in PIA of course, where they start a flight by mumbling some magic words in arabic which they hope will convince Allah to send a farishta to give the plane that extra lift). But... You enjoy the plane ride based on religion, not science (by getting the peace of mind that comes with knowing that even if the plane doesnt quite make it, it is no big deal because there is more to things then our existence).

#99 Hamidm2

Mian, I think that YOU folks are truly the deluded bunch.

(1) Pakistanis have no money of own – it is Uncle Sam pumping in the resources to keep the place running.

(2) When Pakistanis do manage to scrounge up a bit of money, they need to use it to provide a well-deserved boost to the salaries of its brave patriotic khaki warriors – the pride and joy of the ummmmmmaaaah! Little is left.

(3) If any amounts do remain available, those are needed to carry the message of Islam to far-away lands – starting with the neighbor next door, so as to build upon the unblemished track record of improving the life style of the Kashmiris which has been doing so by leaps and bounds since 1989.

(4) Whatever further can be spared is of course needed to replenish the campaign coffers of the Honorable Eatallofus Towns of Brooklyn, New YourK!

Why would ANY patriotic Pakistani want to pay for Science - or even the three R`s!