Pervez Hoodbhoy March 1, 2007
#127 Posted by navedm on March 4, 2007 7:39:23 am
The write-up on `good science` is very timely aside from this issue being of a degree of importance which often goes unrecognized. Dr Hoodbhoy has, however, not quoted the study which gives such high marks to the state of science education in India. While it is good to receive a laudatory comment from the `other side` and that too from a person of his eminence, the findings of the uncited study are highly suspect. Evidence available from sources like reports of various Boards of Education, a review carried out by the Indian Academy of Science and anecdotal evidence of teachers all indicate that despite a few centers of excellence the general state of science education in this country is not too much to right home about. As someone who had something to do with some of the policy aspects of the matter in the 1990s, may I draw attention to a few pointers which may help in a better understanding of the state of science education in India with a few lessons (hopefully) for South Asia and elsewhere in the developing world. They are;
1. First and foremost; science education may be on offer for reasons ascribed in the write-up such as understanding the universe etc, these exalted objetives have somehow disappeared from the perspective. Today, the objective of receiving science education, and of teachers imparting it, from school level onwards, is generally for improving material prospects which often boil down to gaining admissions to institutions of Medical or Technial Education.
2. Precisely for the above reasons, the motivation of students joining courses in Sciences at Under Graduate levels and above, is very poor. Leaving aside the odd `oddball` these students have gravitated to such courses as a poor alternative after having failed to make the grade in the institutions referred above. Accounts from fairly reputed Universities indicate that a majority of students doing Masters` in as elite a discipline as Physics invest most of their time and attention to prepare for tests for admission to Management programmes.
3. The net result is that the College University system retains only the frustrated for a career in research and education. The shool system is in particular a casualty as a career as a school science teacher is not a priority at all. The lady or gentleman joining as a ``Post Graduate Teacher`` is a despairing soul who is where she or he is, for no fault of her/ his. Even for this demoralized lot, the silver lining is to make a minor fortune in private coaching institutions- millionaire school teachers are no longer a rare phenomenon!
The solution does not lie with further improving the material prospects of teachers- service condition of School, College and University Teachers have improved dramatically in the last few decades in India and it is doubtful if further dramatic improvement is sustainable. The issue ironially is of creating a social climate wherein acquiring a knowledge of science is a goal in itself. In short, the reasons for obtaining education in science put forward by Dr Hoodbhoy must be acepted by the society.With such acceptance, admissions to Medical and Engineering Colleges and allied (potentially) money-spinning activities will become `fringe benefits` rather than be-all and end-all of science education.
How could this goal be achieved in the foreseeable future, though, is a question which begs itself. The civil society has clearly failed to bring this matter to the center-stage of its concern. The imperatives of choosing what can be done over what should be done have kept the issue away from the priorities of the political-bureaucaratic system. Theoretical or abstract as it may sound, the only pragmatic option is for lobbies and pressure groups to hammer this point home day in and day out so that the cause of `science for civilization`s sake` is brought home to the people at large- that is the only way the cause advocated by Dr Hoodbhoy can be taken further.
Naved Masood
1. First and foremost; science education may be on offer for reasons ascribed in the write-up such as understanding the universe etc, these exalted objetives have somehow disappeared from the perspective. Today, the objective of receiving science education, and of teachers imparting it, from school level onwards, is generally for improving material prospects which often boil down to gaining admissions to institutions of Medical or Technial Education.
2. Precisely for the above reasons, the motivation of students joining courses in Sciences at Under Graduate levels and above, is very poor. Leaving aside the odd `oddball` these students have gravitated to such courses as a poor alternative after having failed to make the grade in the institutions referred above. Accounts from fairly reputed Universities indicate that a majority of students doing Masters` in as elite a discipline as Physics invest most of their time and attention to prepare for tests for admission to Management programmes.
3. The net result is that the College University system retains only the frustrated for a career in research and education. The shool system is in particular a casualty as a career as a school science teacher is not a priority at all. The lady or gentleman joining as a ``Post Graduate Teacher`` is a despairing soul who is where she or he is, for no fault of her/ his. Even for this demoralized lot, the silver lining is to make a minor fortune in private coaching institutions- millionaire school teachers are no longer a rare phenomenon!
The solution does not lie with further improving the material prospects of teachers- service condition of School, College and University Teachers have improved dramatically in the last few decades in India and it is doubtful if further dramatic improvement is sustainable. The issue ironially is of creating a social climate wherein acquiring a knowledge of science is a goal in itself. In short, the reasons for obtaining education in science put forward by Dr Hoodbhoy must be acepted by the society.With such acceptance, admissions to Medical and Engineering Colleges and allied (potentially) money-spinning activities will become `fringe benefits` rather than be-all and end-all of science education.
How could this goal be achieved in the foreseeable future, though, is a question which begs itself. The civil society has clearly failed to bring this matter to the center-stage of its concern. The imperatives of choosing what can be done over what should be done have kept the issue away from the priorities of the political-bureaucaratic system. Theoretical or abstract as it may sound, the only pragmatic option is for lobbies and pressure groups to hammer this point home day in and day out so that the cause of `science for civilization`s sake` is brought home to the people at large- that is the only way the cause advocated by Dr Hoodbhoy can be taken further.
Naved Masood
#128 Posted by KaalChakra on March 4, 2007 8:19:02 am
Excellent commentary, Naved. Mammon`s our new God. Increasingly, all else shall flow from and to Him,... science/knowledge included.
#131 Posted by hamidm2 on March 4, 2007 9:46:06 am
Re: # 130
zeemax,
...... i have known tehsin before he ruined his eyes by playing with his peepee and ruined his mind by reading socrates ...... but even at his worst he is a better man than you, and if you are not careful he will make you cry like a little girl from jamia hafsa ............
zeemax,
...... i have known tehsin before he ruined his eyes by playing with his peepee and ruined his mind by reading socrates ...... but even at his worst he is a better man than you, and if you are not careful he will make you cry like a little girl from jamia hafsa ............
#130 Posted by zeemax on March 4, 2007 9:28:35 am
#129 by hamidm2
Brilliant ! How come the best of your ire is reserved for poor tehsinabbasi? Perhaps you don`t like socrates ... hmmm ....
Brilliant ! How come the best of your ire is reserved for poor tehsinabbasi? Perhaps you don`t like socrates ... hmmm ....
#132 Posted by shabha on March 4, 2007 9:48:10 am
``... overemphasizing vocabulary can be dangerous. Understanding is the main purpose of science teaching but many teachers think that their job is to make students learn big words. This detracts from science as a process and jeopardizes learning, particularly in a linguistically fractured country like ours...``
its really strange to note that in Punjab (for example), where majority of people live in rural areas and speak only and only punjabi, the students are taught in urdu which they cant understand in most of the cases..they have to try hard for learning big words of another language and when they start understanding they r forced again to learn another language i.e english. no one knows how many of them gets chance to enter the ``understanding phase`` which is the main purpose of science teaching. arent we just wasting time, money n energies in a useless exercise or if not useless, we r not serving the main purpose for sure..i m not sure that in how many countries the medium of instruction at primary level is a languge thats is other than the students` mother tongue...there may have some political reasons for teaching urdu and some economic or market reasons for teaching english but my point is that cant this all be achieved by imparting quality education of urdu and english as two independent and seperate subjetcs so that the other subjects like social studies, ethics, religious tudies and specially the science may be taught in one`s mother tongue...offcourse we should keep teaching science in english and urdu where there r no problems as to understanding them.
its really strange to note that in Punjab (for example), where majority of people live in rural areas and speak only and only punjabi, the students are taught in urdu which they cant understand in most of the cases..they have to try hard for learning big words of another language and when they start understanding they r forced again to learn another language i.e english. no one knows how many of them gets chance to enter the ``understanding phase`` which is the main purpose of science teaching. arent we just wasting time, money n energies in a useless exercise or if not useless, we r not serving the main purpose for sure..i m not sure that in how many countries the medium of instruction at primary level is a languge thats is other than the students` mother tongue...there may have some political reasons for teaching urdu and some economic or market reasons for teaching english but my point is that cant this all be achieved by imparting quality education of urdu and english as two independent and seperate subjetcs so that the other subjects like social studies, ethics, religious tudies and specially the science may be taught in one`s mother tongue...offcourse we should keep teaching science in english and urdu where there r no problems as to understanding them.
#133 Posted by arjun2 on March 4, 2007 9:50:01 am
hoodbhoy`s article is being dissected on paki other blogs..as expected most pakis blame hoodbhoy for creating an alternate reality with his article..it`s as if hoodbhoy writing this article somehow magically altered the reality and brought it to the state that is...if this reality altering article hadn`t been written, Pakiland would have institutes comparable to the IITs and there would be tons of paki profs in US schools...
http://www.dawn.com/2007/03/04/letted.htm#4
HEC’s ride to fantasyland
Dr Hoodhboy’s typically trenchant and compelling plea (letter, Feb 28) to stay the HEC’s incontinence will surely be met by yet another ludicrous response from the HEC’s full-time media brigade. Before the reader gets swayed by the magic carpet ride to the HEC’s fantasyland, I would like to cite the case of a leading private sector university in Lahore which too is flapping its wings to launch a billion-rupee plus engineering school.
While they have managed to net a well-reputed and competent dean from a leading US school, finding quality faculty to fill the fourscore or more faculty positions is turning into a bit of a nightmare.
In keeping with the standards of academic merit he is used to, the dean rejected all but one faculty member from the much-trumpeted computer science faculty the university already had. And as our universities go, the faculty in question is arguably among the best, if not the best in Pakistan.
Dr Hoodhboy’s concern about the quality of the faculty is absolutely basic and essential; and even if a few young scholars do emerge from the droves the HEC seems intent on shipping them abroad, including many to dubious institutions, where they will be unable to lead and build the intended plethora of modern engineering schools.
If the HEC’s ambitions were just confined to fanciful power point presentations, we could all just get on with our business. Sadly, the HEC’s ride to fantasyland requires very scarce and almost gargantuan resources, which this poor country can hardly afford.
In this scenario, Dr Hoodhboy’s suggestion to try and build just two engineering universities would appear to be a challenge worth pursuing. The plans the HEC has will only lead to more relics marring an already decrepit and desolate academic landscape.
PROF WASIF M. KHAN
Lahore
http://www.dawn.com/2007/03/04/letted.htm#4
HEC’s ride to fantasyland
Dr Hoodhboy’s typically trenchant and compelling plea (letter, Feb 28) to stay the HEC’s incontinence will surely be met by yet another ludicrous response from the HEC’s full-time media brigade. Before the reader gets swayed by the magic carpet ride to the HEC’s fantasyland, I would like to cite the case of a leading private sector university in Lahore which too is flapping its wings to launch a billion-rupee plus engineering school.
While they have managed to net a well-reputed and competent dean from a leading US school, finding quality faculty to fill the fourscore or more faculty positions is turning into a bit of a nightmare.
In keeping with the standards of academic merit he is used to, the dean rejected all but one faculty member from the much-trumpeted computer science faculty the university already had. And as our universities go, the faculty in question is arguably among the best, if not the best in Pakistan.
Dr Hoodhboy’s concern about the quality of the faculty is absolutely basic and essential; and even if a few young scholars do emerge from the droves the HEC seems intent on shipping them abroad, including many to dubious institutions, where they will be unable to lead and build the intended plethora of modern engineering schools.
If the HEC’s ambitions were just confined to fanciful power point presentations, we could all just get on with our business. Sadly, the HEC’s ride to fantasyland requires very scarce and almost gargantuan resources, which this poor country can hardly afford.
In this scenario, Dr Hoodhboy’s suggestion to try and build just two engineering universities would appear to be a challenge worth pursuing. The plans the HEC has will only lead to more relics marring an already decrepit and desolate academic landscape.
PROF WASIF M. KHAN
Lahore
#134 Posted by tahmed32 on March 4, 2007 9:51:47 am
hamidm: as long as they continue to believe in the book, all other knowledge is superfluous ........
mullah: all knowledge is included in the book-as-rewritten-by-paighambar-maudoodi
confusion worse confounded!!
mullah: all knowledge is included in the book-as-rewritten-by-paighambar-maudoodi
confusion worse confounded!!
#201 Posted by shabha on March 6, 2007 3:43:40 am
Re: # 135
i was talking about the mother tongue as medium of instruction at the primary level alongwith an independent subject of english. i think the basics of every subject for teaching at primary level can easily be available in punjabi... when the students become able to understand english then offcourse it is preferable to teach them in english as u have rightly pointed out the importance of english as to its universality and richiness. This is the only way the students can start learning and understanding the subjects taught to them right from the start of their educational career.
regards.
i was talking about the mother tongue as medium of instruction at the primary level alongwith an independent subject of english. i think the basics of every subject for teaching at primary level can easily be available in punjabi... when the students become able to understand english then offcourse it is preferable to teach them in english as u have rightly pointed out the importance of english as to its universality and richiness. This is the only way the students can start learning and understanding the subjects taught to them right from the start of their educational career.
regards.
#135 Posted by tahmed32 on March 4, 2007 9:56:52 am
#132 social studies, ethics, religious tudies and specially the science may be taught in one`s mother tongue
unrealistic. there are no professional or scientifc or even arts books or journals worth the name written in panjabi and/or urdu. no internet sites either. the best you will find is some urdu/panjabi literature sites and that is all. english is the de facto language in the global marketplace. this is the reality that pakistanis need to understand if they wish to compete for jobs and businesses in the world today.
unrealistic. there are no professional or scientifc or even arts books or journals worth the name written in panjabi and/or urdu. no internet sites either. the best you will find is some urdu/panjabi literature sites and that is all. english is the de facto language in the global marketplace. this is the reality that pakistanis need to understand if they wish to compete for jobs and businesses in the world today.
#136 Posted by sri on March 4, 2007 10:04:49 am
masadi # 122
`` The global pecking order works inspite of the will of the vast majority of humanity ``
Yet another usual retarded response by you. Thankfully the Chinese did not get to read your retarded theories in the 1960s.
Ladies, gentleman and the usual retarded Mullahs,
On one hand you have the practical Chinese example of self-help and self-progress through hardwork and on the other you have the theories of masadi the retard of self-pity and self-resignation. The choice is yours.
#137 Posted by zeemax on March 4, 2007 10:24:06 am
#131 by hamidm2
Little girl from Jamia Hafsa? Man ... you gotta be kidding ... they`re sitting there with dnadas thumbing their noses at the 111 Brigade ...
Little girl from Jamia Hafsa? Man ... you gotta be kidding ... they`re sitting there with dnadas thumbing their noses at the 111 Brigade ...
#138 Posted by zeemax on March 4, 2007 10:28:01 am
hamidm2,
... and BTW .. for the very first time in chowk history someone agreed with an opposing view and accepted it ... and it was tehsinabbasi with me. So it is YOU who`s got to be careful ... When your buffoonery runs out, you`re left with little to cover your nakedness .. :~)
... and BTW .. for the very first time in chowk history someone agreed with an opposing view and accepted it ... and it was tehsinabbasi with me. So it is YOU who`s got to be careful ... When your buffoonery runs out, you`re left with little to cover your nakedness .. :~)
#139 Posted by arjun2 on March 4, 2007 10:38:11 am
#137 by zeemax on March 4, 2007 10:24am PT
they`re sitting there with dnadas thumbing their noses at the 111 Brigade
That`s because you`re 111 brigade is a bunch of pussies...and their leaders are the same bunch that abandoned the bodies of their soldiers and who stay mum as US forces bomb the crap out of the citizens they`re charged with protesting...
they`re sitting there with dnadas thumbing their noses at the 111 Brigade
That`s because you`re 111 brigade is a bunch of pussies...and their leaders are the same bunch that abandoned the bodies of their soldiers and who stay mum as US forces bomb the crap out of the citizens they`re charged with protesting...
#146 Posted by plats8 on March 4, 2007 12:07:42 pm
Re: # 142
Hamidm,
But you are talking about a very subcontinental version of Islam, which has fallen
terribly out of favour with the more righteous amongst Pakistanis. Thank god there`s
still enough austerity-free Islam to go around...
Hamidm,
But you are talking about a very subcontinental version of Islam, which has fallen
terribly out of favour with the more righteous amongst Pakistanis. Thank god there`s
still enough austerity-free Islam to go around...
#142 Posted by hamidm2 on March 4, 2007 11:25:42 am
Re: # 140
tehsin,
........ this really comes as a shock to me !......... if the koran wasn`t translated into persian/hindi/urdu till the 17-1800`s then what the heck were the muslims of india practicing before that ! ........ acutally it wasn`t any better in the 1960`s and 70`s when my mother made me wear the imam zamin, walk under the koran before catching bus to lahore, spit on me to ward off evil spirits and dragged me off to pir sahib of kohat to ask for good grades - i guess all of it worked ....... and it worked well without having to resort to reading the koran, praying five times a day or starving to death during ramadhan .......... if that is what islam is all about, i am all for it ..........
tehsin,
........ this really comes as a shock to me !......... if the koran wasn`t translated into persian/hindi/urdu till the 17-1800`s then what the heck were the muslims of india practicing before that ! ........ acutally it wasn`t any better in the 1960`s and 70`s when my mother made me wear the imam zamin, walk under the koran before catching bus to lahore, spit on me to ward off evil spirits and dragged me off to pir sahib of kohat to ask for good grades - i guess all of it worked ....... and it worked well without having to resort to reading the koran, praying five times a day or starving to death during ramadhan .......... if that is what islam is all about, i am all for it ..........
#140 Posted by Tehsinabbasi on March 4, 2007 10:38:47 am
#123 by zeemax
Yes it was written by an almost illiterate Bedouin – with the claim that it was the divine, literal and inviolable word of God. To this day even for recitation purposes, pronunciation and diction are emphasized so that it is not misinterpreted in any way.
Any body who attempted to go beyond literal was accused of innovation and paid a heavy price. One of the accusations for the murder of the third Caliph Uthman b. Affan was that he had innovated beyond what was written in the Quran. Even Umar had to back track for his so called innovations. In the subcontinent the first person to finally translate the Quran into …… Persian was Shah Wali Ullah in the mid 1700s and it was his progeny who finally completed the translation into Urdu in around 1800. Can you believe it that Islam had been in India for over a thousand years before its people (the mullah) not the aalim had a chance to know what was in the Quran. It just didn’t happen like that, it was because of assiduous opposition the same sort that we now see against Science.
With so much emphasis on the literal word being all important how can you so easily dismiss it and call upon a deeper understanding of the Quran. More then that by saying what you said you have denied the literal word of God. For me, its okay I do it all the time and am resigned to my fate as a blasphemer (from a literalist point of view). But I am shocked that you, with your fundamentalist persona engage in similar heresy as uncle tom’s (your words) like me. This is a sad day for fundamentalism.
Yes it was written by an almost illiterate Bedouin – with the claim that it was the divine, literal and inviolable word of God. To this day even for recitation purposes, pronunciation and diction are emphasized so that it is not misinterpreted in any way.
Any body who attempted to go beyond literal was accused of innovation and paid a heavy price. One of the accusations for the murder of the third Caliph Uthman b. Affan was that he had innovated beyond what was written in the Quran. Even Umar had to back track for his so called innovations. In the subcontinent the first person to finally translate the Quran into …… Persian was Shah Wali Ullah in the mid 1700s and it was his progeny who finally completed the translation into Urdu in around 1800. Can you believe it that Islam had been in India for over a thousand years before its people (the mullah) not the aalim had a chance to know what was in the Quran. It just didn’t happen like that, it was because of assiduous opposition the same sort that we now see against Science.
With so much emphasis on the literal word being all important how can you so easily dismiss it and call upon a deeper understanding of the Quran. More then that by saying what you said you have denied the literal word of God. For me, its okay I do it all the time and am resigned to my fate as a blasphemer (from a literalist point of view). But I am shocked that you, with your fundamentalist persona engage in similar heresy as uncle tom’s (your words) like me. This is a sad day for fundamentalism.
Interact Index
Latest Interacts
- HPsauce: Indians are fcuked and... Pleas For Sanity as
- HPsauce: India is jihad’s Disneyland Topic... Pleas For Sanity as
- HPsauce: http://www.dailypioneer.com/140679/Don%c3%a2%e2%82%ac%e2%84%a2t-petition-Islam ab ad.html Don’t petition... Pleas For Sanity as
- SR: Some famous homo/bi men... Nothing Queer About It
- nkg: Re: # 307 DM... I am... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
- Levitate: I mean akcheema are... Pleas For Sanity as
- nkg: Re: # 13 qyousuf... If I... I Am A Pakistani
- Levitate: Tahir... but hindoos are... The Future of Indo








reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content