Teaching Science Badly – and Well

[what are good science teachers actually supposed to do in class?]

1. Survive the onslaught from Mullahs

2. Survive the onslaught from the Khakis

3. Survive the onslaught from the masses

4. Conduct a balancing act between teaching students skepticism without offending those who demand unquestioning obedience (i.e., teach a new mindset without appearing to)

5. Do all of the above on very limited salary and with no support from the administration
6. Teach the students how to accomplish all of the above on their own

practical answer: zero error

Agreed. Course books should be revived, (a lot of good images- mentioning of online sites- laborities having `complete` equippments, etc) Teaching method should be improved but a more emphasis should be given to reviving Course Books, atleast where the teaching is not good a student would be able to get it right all by himself. I was interested in science, somehow I lost my interest, I`d blame myself but I`d also blame the course-books and teaching method. Today in good colleges,student go to Medical/eng universities not because of good teaching/n/course/ but because of their own rattafication qualities and hard-work, as they are supposed to be the cream of that city,so the cream goes to these faculties and the remaining nuts end up being like me!

Forget about science, they tell a student in pak-studies about the ideology of pakistan that it was made in the name of religion and that it was a genuine fear that after the britishers leave , we`d not be given fair chance in country`s politics and prosperity

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to our youth`s utter surprise, today President of India is a Muslim and Prime-Minister is a Sikh, so when our youth sees the reality, he gets confused. So all the muslims of india do exactly what we here do

---

?? -- wandering around

no offense, by the way www.kidsastronomy.com ( a must see)

``In contrast, a recent survey in India revealed that a majority of school students see science as the most glamorous and interesting career to pursue. Many go on to becoming the world’s top scientists. This is a key factor in the emergence of India as a major world power, in scientific as well as economic terms. ``

The key factor its(indias) large population with potential of 200 million middle class families potential for Americas Wal mart to move in .....

[[[In older times the idiocy of the “aamils”, pirs, and mullahs and assorted soothsayers was accepted by just the ignorant and illiterate. But today college graduates, as well as the rich and powerful, now calmly accept this as high wisdom.

Good science education alone can change this.]]]

Dear writer

Sorry, I do not agree with your ideology at all. Rather your ideology is quite disturbing for me.

Yes, I admit to learn science is a good tool for human progress propectivel, but, to be good and fine humans science is not the answer to all problems or their solution.

To accept aamir, pirs or mullahs is absolutely not related to lack of scientific education.

My brother in law has done his phd in nuclear physics from Oxford and from Finland with two years fellowship from USA Pittsburg............he is teaching in Punjab university and has been promoted as associate professor of Physics @ just a very young age of 32 years..........

He has recently converted in to exremist mullah...........and I have seen so many people with scientific backgrounds and ended up being mullahs...............

So, my whole point is your concept is totally flawed about science and being mullahs.

Science is good for human progress, but, it doesn`t change the dogmas. If, they are out to be mullahs they`ll remain mullahs. If, they believe in pirs or aamils they will definitely do that with science or with out science............................Thanks

#4 sorry for typo

{{{Yes, I admit , to learn science is a good tool for human progress prospectively...}}

Teaching in the subcontinent is oriented towards biased versions of history, language and religion.

The phobia towards teaching science is amply evident, and deplorable. This must be corrected.

#5 Zeena
i do not know your brother at all and you are his sister but does not he has rights to do whatever with his education..
who is hooodhboy to judge what is good or what is bad...
Science and religion is comlimentary and should be supplemental and not ANTAGONISTIC...
Communism is against religion ,does the author suggest comunism to be more scientific?
Science is limited and its not a substitute for religion similarly any body like communists can think religion as opium of mankind.but would rather be a religous scientist than drab sterile abject concrete thinking scientist...

Science does not teach love morality sociology anthropology history lierature poetry mysticism philosophy comfort in higher being ....Science in its place only seems appropriatetoo much emphasis and hpe from itis exaggerated..hyped and has turned mankind more destructive the hiroshima and star wars missiles are prove of it....

Shah2 #7

I totally disagree with Dr.Hoodboy..........He makes NO sense at all. Very disappointed.

I have observed millions of practicing scientists like [medical doctors, engineers, mechanics, physics, chemists, biologists, botanists etc, etc, etc..........in Pakistan and also in USA graduated from highly prestigious institutions including world renounced ones and internationally recognized ones STRICTLY practicing their dogmas(their religions) , keeping a perfect balance between their professional lives and their religious lives............usually they incorporate them together beautifully without rejecting their dogmas.................rather they seem more solid and strict about their religious dogmas..............they do not consider religious dogmas as foolish set of ideas to which people are adhered for irrational or emotional reasons.

Science and religious dogmas rather walk hand in hand towards the betterment of humanity. Both preach to end human miseries for making a useful community and helping humans to solve their problems in this life world wise.

Dogmas and science both give people hope and belief with rationality in their own perspectives. One can`t REJECT or SUBJUGATE other @ the expense of it`s own stupidity or idiocy. We as humans truly believe that religious dogmas serve as a glue to bind social communities together. Science serves the same purpose to bring humans together @ the same platform for their well being................they have had been working together.............with the rationale of tolerance........there is a famous saying,`` Tolerance of intolerance brings intolerance. Intolerance of intolerance brings tolerance.``

Majority of multicultural dogmas are not per se irrational, they are based exclusively upon our rational needs.

Reason and freedom cannot solely based on science only , yes we do need religious dogmas for the implementation of our cultural values , of course for the betterment of our communities.

And Shah2

I believe morality, sociology , anthropology, even literature and religions are scientific in their real sense...............God knows what Dr.Hoodboy was thinking when he wrote this senseless article.

Dr.Hoodboy in this article reflecting nothing, but, his own state of CONFUSION and confused mind set.........................with no logic at all.

`The scientific mindset starts developing naturally when students encounter questions that engage their mind rather than memory.
Question is not allowed, this is very unfortunate but it`s harsh reality.
Teachers even in professional colleges have no guts to say, `ok I shall explain it to-morrow`
if you write something out of syllabus , it may be right and related to the subject ,marking will be low .
student are asked to produce what is written in the book .How can brain expand and learn new things !

Dr.Hoodboy is just confused.........the man doesn`t know what he is talking about.............

Dr.Hoodboy`s scope of mind is very myopic with limited field. Science makes us broadminded with open arms for all without subtracting other dogmas..................

And what is science? Science is NOT just sitting in a laboratory to perform some experiments like we used to perform when we were doing our O`levels and A`levels in chemistry, Physics and biochmistry...........or maths.........science is everything including our dogmas.................

I think thoughts by professor are right mostly some are not right.
Generally too much education is problem. More you study more one becomes foolish. Most of times science is not required and too much thinking can lead to problems. Now in all sciences Mathematics is worst science as it is difficult. And its really troubles ``KHopadi`` and its has no use. Now days people learning too much is problem. First they teach wronngly too much science then they feel they are entitled to good job and good salary. Now if they learn too much science and what is use to anybody. Its just ego trip and spoils you. I met a learned PhD maths person he looked normal but he felt too proud and said he needs to be given good job etc, talent etc or will go to foreign etc. Now if you go to purchase some thing in market one needs to know addition and subtraction. The answer is same even if one is educated. Too much literature science also not good. Only political science is worth good and interesting. Science makes you start thinking logically then you become unbeliever and then ask too many questions. I think nothing wrong now, things are going fine. No need to change if things are ok. Good afternoon everybody

``The demons of superstition can only be chased away by those who have learned science the correct way. But for that we may first need a major cultural and attitudinal change that permits real science to be taught in our schools. ``

Excellent suggestion an analyses.

Science is about ``uncertainity``. It is contrary to the absoluteness of theological certainity of mullahs and their followers.
Science is about making Conjectures and Refutations of these through empirical observations.
Science is base upon materialism. It does not conjecture entities that work on ``will`` or some ``spiritual powers`` that are amenable to human prayers.
Science and Mullahism cannot co-exist. That is why mullahs hate science. They would love to burn the laboratories that promote thinking about entities that do not exist in their books or follow their orders.
Turn around Pakistan into a secular state if you want science to flourish..........

Dr. Hoodbhoy -

[But there is another excellent reason to study science. Far from being a cold and soulless collection of facts, it is delicately beautiful with principles that are amazingly simple and precise. Yet, they are also incredibly powerful and universal. Exactly the same laws explain why stars shine, the blue of the sky, the beating of the human heart, and the flight of birds. Science grips the imagination and fascinates endlessly. It has certainly engaged me for most of my life and I, like most scientists, will never tire of it. ]

Beautifully expressed!

[Teachers must also be able to explain coherently what caused the overturn of accepted scientific beliefs, and what to make out of disagreements among scientists. It is extremely important to keep an open mind and challenge when necessary.]

An important point for later review.

#12 what a master piece!! great job ahmedmadani.:-)

``Only political science is worth good and interesting. Science makes you start thinking logically then you become unbeliever and then ask too many questions. ``

Madani Saheb, Kuch bhi ulta seedha aapke dimag mein jo aata hai keh dete hain aap.

Re: # 17

Natural sciences (Physics, Chemistry, Biology) are the foundation on which the whole structure of what is loosely called ``science and technology`` rests. More specifically, good quality engineering research is impossible without a basic understanding of the physics involved. Pakistan may be churning out thousands of engineers, but their contribution to the advancement of engineering is negligible because of the reasons mentioned by Professor Hoodbhoy.

There is a difference between a good technician and a good engineer. And that is knowledge of physics.

Re: # 17 zeemax, you are talking about ``useful`` subjects and not ``real`` subjects.

The learned profesor is talking about ``real`` subjects.

Dr. Hoodbhoy thinks science begins and ends with just `physics` i.e. his own discipline ... and he builds his entire thesis on that erroneous premise saying ``A normal, intelligent and curious child – particularly if he or she is Pakistani – must think science to be the most wretched of subjects at school.

Though the author may not realize it, medical studies is science too. So is pharmacology, so is electrical / mechanical / civil engineering, and so is computers. Does any Pakistani student think of these as wretched subjects? The universities churn out tens of thousands of these each year with many achieving excellence in these fields domestically and abroad.

It is true though that physics / chemistry etc are less popular, but it is only because vocational opportunities in these are severely limited. The emphasis from high-school onwards is on vocational disciplines which can get a job, and not on satisfying curiosities as a hobby. If jobs were available for these disciplines, there would be many students opting for these ...

There is no religious bar on acquiring scientific knowledge, and the professor is completely unaware of that. However, he is right about a few and far-between silly pronouncements on TV etc but those are just opinions amongst all other kinds of silly opinions, to many of which the author may himself subscribe. His concern is highly exaggerated.

Professor Hoodbhoy does not understand Pakistan very well, and it is clear in each one of his articles.

Respected Pervez Saheb,
Aadab,

I have read many of your articles on science and found all of them very inspiring. They appear to deal with science but in reality teach sociology, politics, economics, business and other aspects of progress as well. I appreciate your ability to keep desperation away and write with patience and cool-headed manoeuvring through the dark cob-web of false notions and confusing interpretations that abound in the Pakistani society. Many times I extract humor out of it when you happen to approach science vis-a-vis religion. Sometimes I wonder if it is good that most Pakistanis don`t read your articles or they could find out many subtle blasphemies in it. I consider you one of the best sons of Pakistan and even if Pakistanis don`t learn from your teachings indeed Indian Muslims can learn much.
May I draw your attention to following sentences taken from your current article which the fundamentalists from Pakistan can never come to terms. They can easily give Fatwa: If you believe in Science you don`t believe in Quran.

``....a high premium is put upon skepticism and there is a deep distaste for dogmatism.``
``Science refuses to offer an opinion on things that are unobservable, or whose existence is impossible to verify even in principle. What you cannot see may still actually be there, but science is going to be mum about it. It’s as simple as that.``
Also, allow me to say that keeping mum on anything wrong can not serve the purpose.

Samar

#Samar 1982

``even if Pakistanis don`t learn from your teachings indeed Indian Muslims can learn much.``

Dr.Hoodbhoy had oppertunity to opt for India... instead of suporting two naton theory by

remaining in Pakistan

.....Besides HIS DEFENITION OF SCIENCE itself is not a verifiable free from scepticism that he thinks is scientific ..iDo all reknowned scientist that he admires inIndia agree to that?f

youDr Hoodbhoy) make all the things under the sun tht is rational including philosophy ,kartography, calligraphy, poetry ,music as YOUR OWN SCIENCE.. its ridiculous...

Knowlegde is INDUCTIVE and DEDUCTIVE ...both are NOT exclusively science

``In contrast, a recent survey in India revealed that a majority of school students see science as the most glamorous and interesting career to pursue...``

Do they teach Science differently in India than in Pakistan?
I don`t think so.
It`s just that aspiring physicists have a better career path in front of them in India than in Pakistan.

Just to play the Devil`s advocate, let`s not forget that too much of a `scientific mindset` can make one an emotional cripple.
Real life, outside the lab, is so full of passionate subjective experiences. So many important decisions in life require evaluating subjective impressions. So much is based on uncertain truths. The most `useful` skill to have in life is to risk oneself in an act of faith. I don`t mean faith in a dogmatic religious sense. I mean an act of commitment in the face of uncertain truth.

#23 by khurram on March 2, 2007 8:06am PT

[let`s not forget that too much of a `scientific mindset` can make one an emotional cripple.]

My dear, you appear to have no clue of what you are talking about.

Dr. Sahib,

From one student of science to another, I really don`t know how you have the patience to stay in Pakistan and try and deal with dullards everyday. Pakistani children are exposed to religous gibberish everyday. When we flip the channel, India is promoting Science Safari through NatGeo. I shouldn`t even begin to compare but it is humiliating. Science has been given a bad name since the days of Galileo. There`s nothing we can do except hope that one day this world will be secular and we can actually progress as a species. I highly recommend you to watch An Inconvenient Truth a documentary by Al Gore. He was one who was moved by his science teacher and i believe he will change a lot of minds. Got an oscar for it too. One needs to do the same level of work to promote evolution as creationism destroys the one powerful thing that gives us an edge over other species... the human mind.

Re: # 26

bulleya:

Sure economics is important. But the author asserts that if you have to do science then do it in a way that makes it enjoyable. What`s wrong with that?

...students tend to study what can offer them the best jobs and means of living.......this is specifically true in third world countries......it is only in first world countries, where students can venture out into fields where they may achieve glory or may end up jobless......fields like drama, theatre, language and pure sciences.......

........if one is truly going to look at it from a philosophical view, then there is something even more important than science, which leads to the true development of a society.....a study of art, literature, sociology, etc. is even superior to science in defining and achieving social progress........

yet how many people study art, literature, language etc. in pakistan (or india)........

..........so within sciences, very few pakistanis will turn to pure sciences.........for the simple reason that what in the world are they going to do with such a degree.........until and unless, they can go to the Ph.D level.........which few can......

......my bachelors degree is in a field related to math......quite a difficult field, as it was connected to computational fluid dynamics..........with this degree, i was unable to get a job.......at best, the computer skills i picked up (which had nothing to do with the maths part) helped.........but no one wanted to hire a, ``mathmetician.``........

.......all my graduate work, however is in comp sci......with this degree, i had more job offers than i knew what to do with......even though i found it to be an easier field as far as academics go...........

......mathematics is about as pure a scientific field as there is.........and comp. sci is about as applied a scientific field as there is..........in fact, many people don`t even consider comp. sci a scientific field, since there can really be no, ``pure`` research in this field - at least on the software side..........

however, comp. sci, medicine, electrical engg and various other fields where pure sciences are applied, is where the jobs are........and in pakistan, the highest merit lists are in the medical and engg colleges........have been and always will be.......far far higher than any religious institution or arts college or pure sciences field........

i think it has more to do with economics of getting a job than with any love or hate for science..........

Re #24,

I didn`t mean to imply that every scientist is an emotional cripple. Most probably know how to balance their scientific mindset with emotional intelligence. I just want to point out that scientific mindset should not be promoted exclusively at the expense of other skills.

Re #24 cont.

Btw, did you even read the article you linked to?

It starts as,
``Einstein was a great scientist, in fact the greatest after Newton. But his love life was as mundane and lackluster as that of any ordinary, immature, wayward, and irresponsible person. He wanted love and was able to reciprocate for a time but wouldn’t like the responsibility of any lasting relationship. He would romanticize his feelings of love from a distance, in his love letters, for example, but failed to keep them steady and stable for any length of time. Probably highly creative persons need all their time and minds for their creative work and marriage and steady relationships are only a bothersome appendage; that probably was the reason that Newton remained unmarried all his life. ``

#21# Shah2

He is definitely welcome in India.
But you are wrong with the aspect of two nation theory. If he returns (yes RETURNS), what he would prove wrong will be SIX nation theory before Pak completes SIX decades. You must be planning to drive him here by now!
See, Dr Saheb, you don`t have to visit even a Madarsa in the borderlands to be declared a traitor or blasphemous! They have build one in the Chowkair!

Samar

#24#BJ
#27#Khurram

Where we are most likely to find tender, emotional beings?

Pakistani Madarsas!

Samar

Re: # 31 zeemax, I have no clue since I have never studied there.
BUt here is my guess (based on my students figures): pure MSC in IITs is a straight 5 year course - they do not have BSc. On an average in the Maths, Phys, Chem they produce some 150 in each institute=750. Hod knows how many more from the other universities in thec ountry.

But that is besides the point.

For any progress to be made you need two things

(a) thinking/theory
(b) hands

Pure sciences enable the development of fundemental knowledge, whikst the others are applied. If you rely solely on applied sciences, you end up using knowledge developed by others....

I will develop this further...got to catch my train back to Euston

#20 by dotty,

Yes I agree. But you can only have an academic career like the good professor if you want to pursue `real` subjects to any significant degree. That`s why `applied` subjects are popular. Certainly, in rich societies, there`s the luxury of pursuing these profound disciplines with research grants. Not in Pakistan or India.

BTW ... how many physics or chemistry or botany or biology majors do your cherished IITs produce in your country?

It is a habit of hoodbhoy to knock Pakistan unnecassarily. He is a phoren agent :~)

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#29 by samar1982 on March 2, 2007 9:41am PT
What is so adherence to science is in INDIA....

The kind of newtons Physics application by Modi And other of his like Murli manohar joshi are using physics for babarity ....

What deductive thinking in creartng Ganesh Idol and dipping it in the Arabian sea while forcing the whole city & traffic to standstill all against the convenience of Productive people

What is Kumbh mela with millions naked people having orgy... i know to you
muslims also may seem to be doing in mecca BUT WE DONT DISGUISE I OURSELF AS SCIENTIFIC AS YOU do

#26 by bulleya

Excellent post.

I have always held soft social sciences above hard sciences for the `learning` part in `knowledge. Both terms are not interchangeable.

The company of anthropologists and archaeologists particularly delights me. Except of-course, particle physicists on Bhang/Charas ... and not without :~)

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#33#Shah2

Now you got to the point!!
Only thing is we welcome scientists and you kick them out!
We know that Modi, Ganesh, kumbh and are all rubbish. We don`t disguise, we accept.
We want learned people to educate us.
Understood?

But I don`t want to engage in Hindu/Muslim, India/Pak type crap. I leave the field open for you now.

Zeemax Ankalji has also come! Have a nice day/night with him and other f**kers and masturbaters who are likely to come along sensing him!

Samar

#35 by samar1982

No. Actually not. Regrettably it isn`t. Otherwise I would kick your puny ass real good.

In the event, continue to spew your sophomoric BS .. :~)

#28 by khurram

[Btw, did you even read the article you linked to?]

I know what you mean, yaar. But you are reading that piece all wrong. Its writer (let’s not get into naming names here) took all the FUN out of it.

Let me explain. Using the same set of facts, here is how I would have written it (in part):

Obviously, for Einstein, Physics was the first (and for all practical purposes, the only real) love of his life. The same is probably true of many geniuses, not just scientists, who really accomplish in their chosen field but sometimes come up desperately short in their personal ones, perhaps thinking that the rules for simple folks do not apply to them. There is always a lot of “chiraag taley andhera” with some of these geniuses.

However…

This Einstein dude may have been rude and crude – but he was no prude – and for sure not a dud as a stud!! People like us know that there IS space in the scheme of things for simple janitors – not just geniuses – when they hear sentences like “He is a genius but you wouldn’t want to marry him.”

Just look at the facts! Marie did his laundry and other little things as token of her love for him. After all, what is life but just a bit of his dirty laundry to carry! Here was a man who dumped Marie but continued sending his laundry to her, which she did willingly. Either he took his women for granted, or he took his laundry VERY seriously – or perhaps he made no distinction between his women and dirty laundry!

And what did he do in Berlin? He grew friendly with his cousin Elsa with whom he slept while he was still married to Maleva. Talk about kissing cousins! And before marrying Elsa, he had considered marrying her daughter, Ilse, instead. A true do-gooder who never discriminated based on age!

And Elsa – bless her heart – permitted good old Al to see his mistress twice a week in exchange for keeping a low profile. Old Al being the scientist that he was – always looking for new challenges driven strictly by curiosity and the desire for knowledge – grew bored with her within a year and looked elsewhere for sex. Ah the good old days when wives were SO very understanding! Those creative juices needed a lot of stimulation to flow. It perhaps gave a new and literal meaning to the popular phrase – “behind every successful man, there is a woman!” Einstein was of course more than just “successful”, so extrapolate the number of women accordingly!

I wonder if it would work in reverse?

#17 zeemax and #21 Shah2

Totally agree with you guys..............Dr.Hoodboy seems like a little school boy sitting in a small laboratory doing some basic experiment and thinks this the whole universe................and is unable to see beyond..........Very myopic view.

#14........nonsensical approach.

Dr. Hoodboy,
I love science. Thanks for your sincere feelings and rational thoughts.
Best wishes,
Minhaj

#42

Perhaps because the Romair subscribes to a different school of thought - that if there is a simple idea which can be communicated to most people in the simplest of words, one must strive to find the most convoluted explanation and the murkiest words around to enhance its scope uniformly over approximately ten full-scape pages. And it is all absolutely ``enjoyable``.

La allah, illilah, Mohammad-ur-Rasulallah

End of Science

scinece in its purest form is not an economic activity nor is it meant for economic return. It just improves the human condition.
The sort of science Romair and zeemax are talking about is economic science - which is not meant for pleasure nor interest but is driven by economic interest. Indeed, it has been found that even then, this economic scicnce cannot be driven forward if looked upon purely in terms of economic return. This economic science is neither pure nor applied science in the strictest sense - it is the science of the money-lender. (economic scicne is not Economics please donot mix them).

Money motivation doesnot make good scince (pure or applied). It becomes boring, banal, crap, and you end up as a General Drone making money for someone else. The good professor makes eminent sense.

Re: # 47

khurram:

Point taken

arjun:

``Science as it`s taught in India is certainly not enjoyable``

Agreed!

Re #42,
``But the author asserts that if you have to do science then do it in a way that makes it enjoyable. What`s wrong with that?``

Nothing wrong at all.
But the author does a little more.He identifies this as the cause of ``why then do only a few students in Pakistan want to become scientists``

zeemax & bulleya offered another, more plausible, explanation.

Science as it`s taught in India is certainly not enjoyable. It`s just that Indians are more willing and more able to make a name for themselves. And they don`t have the whole ``strive for jihad for allah or pbuh-dude`` hangup....

Re: # 50

bulleya:

I would not call math science .... let alone pure science. Math is a language used by science to minimize logical errors and at times, it is used for precision. Perhaps, Math is art.

GT#: ``Sure economics is important. But the author asserts that if you have to do science then do it in a way that makes it enjoyable. What`s wrong with that?``

...there is nothing wrong with it.......i never said there was......i am just highlighting the fact that people in pakistan (and probably in other third world countries) do not avoid science because they hate it............i think hoodbhoy is wrong in saying pakistanis avoid pure sciences because they consider it, ``the most wretched of subjects at school.``

i think they avoid pure sciences because of economics........they tend to go into fields where scieince is applied, which is why medical colleges and engg universities have the highest merit lists........far higher than arts or religion or pure sciences.......this indicates they do not consider science, ``wretched,`` otherwise no one would get into anything related to science, including medicine or engg. or comp. sci in pakistan..........

....i am probably one of the only ones on this site who actually pursued a pure science academically.......math being the purest of the pure sciences..........however i soon realized that if i wanted to do anything with it, i had to get a ph.d.......anything below that, i would need to been in a more applied field.....

.....and over my career, even the usa, i have interviewed more than my share of pure scientists who wanted jobs in the software field.......in fact, most of the resumes i see from candidates from russia tend to almost always have pure science ph.ds. etc from russia....however they seem to want jobs in IT.....true for many americans also.....i have seen ivy league ph.ds in pure sciences applying for jobs in IT........however, i doubt too many Ivy league comp. sci grads would be applying for jobs in the pure sciences field.......

.........hence economics has a lot to do with it........

I think the larger point that Dr PH is making is that the education system due to excessive interfence and influence of the religious dogma does not encourage students to pursue science and other academic subjects with inquisitive mind with a structured logical approach. Student is encouraged from young age to accept the ``text`` as a fact without questioning it. That leads to a culture of ``ratta`` education that many of us have grown up with. This more or less applies to both countries although religious dogma is not big part of the education system in India as it is in Pakistan.

My feeling is the cultures that believe in the concepts like ``word of God`` or routine recitation and acceptance of religious scriptures are more prone to above behaviour. Here is the knowledge from the highest source and here are you the receiver who is supposed listen to it, accept it without any doubt, repeat it and practice it. Reapeating and practicing of this knowledge alone is supposed to bear the fruits. Since practicing is harder than repeating or reciting we eventually fall in this trap where our mind starts believing that mere reciting this knowledge is enough...questioning, investigating and improving the body of knowledge takes the back seat. This applies as much to us Sikhs as it applies to Muslims...Brahmins on the other hand made a creative use of these recitals of the text as a tool to make earnings and livelyhood in this life (unlike just doing so to improve the prospects of the next life)..so they may be little better off in this sense than us.:-)

#51 dullabhatti sahib

No, that`s what is not factual. To be religious has got nothing to do with learning science or not.

Mullahs in Pakistan are in absolute minority........Majority Pakistanis are moderate and good Muslims , they sure are scientists, MDs, engineers, economists.......and theologists.....

Dogmas do not prevent or stop us from learning sciences.........and mind it sciences are not just learning Physics sitting in a Lab, it is very broad specturm approach.....

#52
I am enlightened by your informatiion about status in Pak.
In my opinon any profressor in my life has been least instumental in giving me truely knowlege of life that came susequently mor benficial than practical on the field probl;em solving..

All theses profesors are full of Hot Air as Mao said in the eraly part of revolution
and look at chinese in Science one of he super powers way ahead of India

Zeena, look, I am an Engineer and I work with scientists and some scientists turned engineers.. let me tell you there is a difference in a scientist and an engineer. There are some engineers who are good scientists and there are some scientists who are good engineers. but most engineers, doctors, MDs, are really technicians who use science to invent products and perform services. Majority of MDs die without putting forward a single scientific theory or making a scientifc discovery not known before.

#54 dullabhatti sahib

Please, re read my post # 52.

Look....
1:- I do not have any problem with learning sciences. I rather encourage learning more and more for the betterment of pakistan and for the betterment of the whole world.

2:- religious Dogmas do not prevent or stop us from learning sciences.

3:- Mullahs in Pakistan are in absolute minority........Majority Pakistanis are moderate and good Muslims , they sure are scientists, MDs, engineers, economists.......and theologists.....

4:- Scientists are not just physicists.

5:- Science is every other subject. studying geology, biology, theology, physics, chemistry, biochemistry, behavioural sciences, medicine, surgery, architect, engineers( in all their fields), agriculture, industry...............everything is science and every research done in these fields is science.............So, all those who study these subjects are technically
scientists.

My whole point is religious doctrines do not prohibit us from being scientists in any field.

I have seen even extremists mullahs as Phd physicists, MDs, engineers, soft wear engineers etc, etc, etc.......

I hope my point is clear.....

We need EDUCATED MINDS first to eradicate real ignorance in Pakistan. Degrees do not make us educated....And that`s the main solution to our problems.....Religious dogmas are not an issue...It`s the way Mullahs practice such dogmas in a totally convoluted ways...learning science can not stop from producing mullahs.....

#53
Shah2
Yes, I agree with your POV.

“Science is taught in schools for a good enough reason – we owe the modern world to it. The prosperity or poverty of nations, and of individuals, has become contingent upon their ability to understand and control science. Take its products away, and we would be back in the dark days of our ancestors when a child at birth was more likely to die than live.”

Purpose of scientific education is to develop a scientific infrastructure which would enable a country to make products that it needs and solve its problems whether environmental, medical or whatever. Muslim nations realized over two centuries ago that the reason they were in decline and the West in its ascendancy had to with the latter’s ability to harness scientific knowledge. Realizing this every attempt was made to obtain this knowledge.

The best and the brightest of our youth were given scholarships; the wealthy and the powerful didn’t want to be left behind in this race and sent their kids to the best institutions in the West. Even today go to any good American University and attend a philosophy, history, political science, art or anthropology class and you will find that the class is full of Americans, but go to a calculus, physics, chemistry or natural sciences class and you will see them disproportionately filled with Muslims from Arab and non Arab countries. To date I have never met a Muslim student who came to America to study history, philosophy or political science. No self respecting parent would ever entertain the prospect of spending his money on such an economically worthless subject.

Arabs have a lot of money and pre 911 you could see American Universities flooded with their students and most of them graduated with science degrees and did return home to their respective countries. Mind you these young men were no dummies, those who stayed behind joined research institutions and academia here and made a name for themselves and did quite well. But what about the vast majority of the ones who returned? This should have fostered a climate of science and technology in all those nations, where such emphasis had been placed on a scientific education. But that is not the case at all, the Muslim world as a whole lags behind in scientific innovation, in creating new products or developing services indigenously.

My point is that whereas the Good Doctor is lamenting the fact that science is not well taught, the problem runs even deeper then that. Even when people from our backgrounds are given the opportunity and learn good science, they still are unable to think scientifically and obtain the results that they expected to achieve. Why is it so?

Re: # 58
Arjun you always draw wrong conclusions.
In India PhD people have no jobs so they accept teachers jobs. Here are lots of good jobs so who will accept lowly paid and lowly consdered teaching peofession than make huge amounts of money in ``Real work``. Kolkatta has most PhD in Physic and maths driving taxies it was news
Lately you may not be feeling so good with all news of forign investors crowding in north upland counrty of India.
Well You need to accept international business is interested in big G. I have found Iranians and Indians getting uneasy due to big G. Iranians will closing Chahbahar port and connecting railway to central asia and all that money put by indians to damage big G going to be wasted.As big G becomes in near future great transshipment center for asia.

Pakiland`s whole education strategy can be summed up as ``paki see IIT, paki burn with envy, paki think he can do better overnight``..

and despite capt clueless` BS about being a phd and interviewing people, i hardly ever saw a paki prof at grad school...

VIEW: Bring HEC back to earth —Pervez Hoodbhoy

Every day brings new evidence that the planning of higher education in Pakistan has run out of control. It is now more about fantasy than fact. There seems no other way to explain the fact that while the country is becoming besieged by almost daily suicide bombings and religious fanatics can kill a woman minister for being un-Islamically dressed, the Higher Education Commission plans to spend $4.3 billion on building nine new engineering universities, staffed with European faculty and administrators.

It must have sounded like a wonderful idea. Pakistan would pay for France, Sweden, Italy, and some other European countries to help set up, manage, and provide professors for new universities in Pakistan. It would be expensive — Pakistan would have to pay the full development costs, recurrent expenses, and euro-level salaries (plus 40 percent markup) for all the foreign professors and vice-chancellors. But the large presence of European professors teaching in these Pakistan universities would ensure high standards of teaching, the degrees would be awarded by institutions in the respective European countries, and Pakistan would finally end the acute shortage of international quality engineers.

Work has already started. Off the nine universities, the most advanced in terms of construction and planning is the French engineering university with a completion cost of Rs26 billion. It has been named UESTP-France in Karachi, and has an ultimate faculty size of 450-600 with around 5000-7000 students. Its construction is underway and the official starting date is listed as October 2007.

On the ground, the situation looks dismal. The French seem completely absent from the French university. As of the beginning of March 2007, not a single faculty member from France — including the all-important head of the university — has joined. This was confirmed to me by French official sources, and has not been refuted by the HEC. Even the skeleton crew is not on board although decent academic planning for a university requires years of preparation for the curricula, courses, laboratories, and infrastructure.

According to the HEC “Initially, over 50 per cent of the faculty will be from partner countries but as foreign-trained Pakistani faculty become available over the next five to eight years, the foreign faculty component will be reduced to about 25 per cent”. This means that UESTP-France in Karachi needs to find — just as a startup — scores of French professors and still more Pakistani engineering professors for its faculty.

Should we blame the French for not turning up? And are hundreds of Swedes, and other Europeans any more likely to turn up to live and teach in Pakistan for several years at such a time? What is a European professor to make of the suicide bombings at the Islamabad international airport, the Islamabad Marriot Hotel, the Quetta High Court, and so many more in the past year, and that the international community grows more convinced everyday that Pakistan has become a new haven for Al Qaeda?

Even if the Europeans came, there would not be enough Pakistani faculty for all these universities. The sad fact is that currently there are no more than 2-3 dozen PhD engineering professors in all of Pakistan’s engineering universities who can teach modern engineering subjects at an international professional level. So, even if every one of these universities were sucked dry of all its best, this would be barely sufficient for meeting the needs of the first phase of the first Pak-European university. What will happen then to the Rs37 billion Pak-Swedish University, scheduled to start in 2008 and to be located in Sialkot, and which will need even more teachers?

The HEC says that in time there will be more Pakistani faculty as 500 Pakistani engineers have currently been sent for PhD degrees abroad. This simply cannot suffice for meeting the needs for nine universities, which will need in total thousands of teachers.

To be honest, the HEC should recognise even the 500 engineers it sent abroad may not be enough for even one university. Not all will succeed in getting a Ph.D. Past experience also shows that some of the really good students who get PhDs will stay on in the West, and some who do return to Pakistan will be too mediocre for university-level teaching. It is irresponsible to plan a series of universities with so much wishful thinking.

Far wiser would be to aim for, at the very most, two properly planned new engineering universities under the collective authority of the European Union, and to seek external help for adding engineering departments to existing universities, as well as to massively upgrade existing ones. But these relatively modest goals are unacceptable to a HEC leadership that believes, like the Musharraf regime as a whole, in grand plans rather than practical, feasible reforms.

Administrative incompetence and bungling has become the hallmark of HEC projects, whether large amounts of money are involved or not. Consider the ham-handed manner in which rules for students wishing to register for the PhD degree in Pakistani universities have been changed.

According to the new rules, published in national newspapers, it is now necessary for every student to ‘clear’ the subject GRE exam, administered by the Princeton-based Education Testing Service, before the student is granted admission to the PhD programme of any Pakistani university. Considered dauntingly tough by our students (most of their teachers would fare poorly as well) these exams do measure aptitude for higher studies fairly well. The logic — faultless in itself — is that Pakistani students must measure up to international standards.

But left dangling are the key questions: what marks or percentile rating does ‘clear’ mean and who will decide? Who will pay the $160 examination fee, a major consideration for our public-university students? How to acclimatise the student, who has operated hitherto in a familiar rote-learning mode, into an alien problem-solving mode?

The HEC is silent on these fundamental questions, but without addressing them a collapse of PhD programs will occur nationwide. This is just one more example of the scores of arbitrary schemes conceived by the HEC that have placed Pakistan’s higher education in serious danger.

Other projects launched by the HEC — such as incentivising the publication of research papers — have caused plagiarism to explode across the national scene. Hastily conceived and badly managed, they have channelled resources away from crucial areas into grandiose schemes. The HEC must be brought to task. There needs to be an independent investigation of its plans and financing, a review of its programmes, and a full audit of all the money that has been spent on and by HEC.

The author teaches physics at Quaid-e-Azam University in Islamabad

Good professor is trying to highlight the importance of scientific outlook which could and should be cultivated through objective learning of science and other subjects and not through Rattabaji. When all the Madarsas (and other schools too in Pak) give much, much more emphasis on just memorizing, naturally it kills the thirst for real knowledge.

If even science is not taught in a manner that would promote curiosity how the knowledge in other fields could ever question status quo? That is why even Musharraf is seen as someone enlightened, even if moderately and through newspaper Rattas people are given to believe that he is better than elected representatives . Presently even most progressive newspapers of Pak project him to be indispensable for the country. See, what the constant rattling of shrill voices has done to vanguards of the society. What a shame!

And, this is what we are witnessing in Chowkair.

I feel pity for the land of the pure. Real pity!

Samar

Continued from my last post: See what Irfan Saheb has to say about outlook.

``Looking ahead, the only hopeful signs appear in those emerging economies that have adopted reason as the basis of education. China’s and India’s dramatic growth can be traced directly to their educated workforce. Neither has been reluctant to borrow from the West when it comes to setting up educational institutions. Both have jettisoned ideological baggage that might have handicapped their absorption of knowledge. Indeed, both have learned from their colonial past, and repudiated the complacency of their past rulers.

``This, then, is the lesson we must all learn: knowledge is universal and has no frontier. When elected members of the Pakistani parliament demand that students should not be taught the pre-Islamic past of their country, they are only exhibiting the kind of thinking that allowed foreigners to rule us so easily. Until we can shed this kind of mediaeval, irrational mindset, we are doomed to stand in queue outside the IMF and the World Bank.``- Irfan Husain in Dawn, 3/3/07

Re: # 61
We should aware of Iranians(parsees etc).
I think they are ``planning`` something by building 600 kilometers wall along border and seperating people brutely. I have not seen any foreign powers asying against that. 600 km long, 2 ft thick and 20 ft height was is shear mad action. I think they want to make mischief in S.Arabia also.

The professor like a true non-musalman is bent on making the musalman look incompetent and backward. HIs writings always reflect this point.

If pakistan and the brave musalmans were really that backward, how could they have got a brave persian and tested him as well.

Is the zorasthrian professor jealous that his fingers were not in the pie?








Pakistan test fires The ABDALI

#61

... err ... Ahmad Shah Abdali was an Afghan Pashtun (just like Taliban), and not a Persian ...

... but the connection is unmistakable because Abdali declared Jihad (just like Taliban) and crushed the Marathas in the third battle of Panipat ... LoL

... do I see something dribbling down those green teteron pants onto the yellow hawai chappals?

#62
my brave musalman zeemax, Abdali was that rare commodity, in that he was from the tr-country border area - persia, afhaghnistan and present day pakistan (musalmanstan). Hw owes his life to his father-like figure that great Musalman King from Persia Nadir Shah.

This test, is an answer to the dastardly indians who have been tickling the balls of the powerfull people of the world. These horrible hunoods have been presenting false witnesses against the brave musalmans of hindustan.

Yes, they are all going where ever they can and as you so delicately put it, there is something dribbling down the teflon trousers and they donot even have time to remove them. And their yellow Halwai Hawaii chappals can longer absorb the stuff (T)

#62 my brave musalman zeemax, I see you are in agreement with the general thrust of the argument in #61!

Man, I am honored!

#63#Nutcasejob

About Nadir Shah : Before plundering Muslims of India, i.e. Mughals in their most wretched time, he had brought havoc to BRAVE Musalmans of Peshavar, BRAVE Musalmans of Ravalpindi, BRAVE Musalmans of Multan, BRAVE Musalmans of Lahore. I am really confused if these cities are in Pak or in India! Now I could really know the state of History books (and perhaps Geography books too) in Pak.

Now I could also guess what you think of and wish for Indian Muslims!!

I will go by what you say about Abdali having defeated Marathas but again you have just to replace Nadir Shah with Abdali to know the real history of Pak. You have confused me so much, I am still not sure about the Geography!!!

Samar

Continued from post 65

For your benefit, read what Irfan Husain has to say about knowledge and reason in my post 60.
I pray, he happens to be one hundred percent Musalman. Otherwise...? Allah Malik! I am afraid he too is not BRAVE enough to endure your onslaught!

Samar

An excellent article Hoodhboy sahib. As a science teacher at a private school of the sort you be- moan (though not in pakistan) --obsessed with exam results--I agree with everything you say.

I was lucky to go to a school myself where we used to be expected to find out things ourselves via experiments. Feynman has some wonderful writing on what is good and bad science teaching.

Re: # 69
For continued page. Read in detail my comment about GM food by K.Siddiqi , you will be be surpriced to find information about monster goat.That is good article and it is wriien densely with full of knowledge.

Re: # 68

Excellent commentary. Old times people had blind belief in Religion ( miracles and magic stories etc ) like donkey who will work whole day in hope of getting food in evening and owner will whip him and give little food. Now todays misuguided youth have blind faith in confidence in science and techknowledge that they can get good job and be HAPPY ALL time.
I consider teaching is good if boys and girls go to college and need no tution.
I consider teaching ok if boys and girls go college and also have tution help.
I consider teaching bad if do not attend college but just go to tution.
Failure of teaching system starts after primary school when tution starts.
But I do not blame yound people as they have real problems as they are breathing air, drinking water which is life less and food is factory produced by playing with nature and poisoning what we breathe, what drink and what we eat and damaging eyes by watching TV and movies ( indian vulgar movies) and damaging their ears and sensibilities permanantly also always reading under artificial electric bulbs and devoid of natural sunlight , suffocating themselves with cold humid air from airconditioners. I do not tell even my daughters as they feel , I do not understood modern world and they they say strange things . They feel I hate modern things as I am old and just getting remorse of getting old etc. I told them not advice me my ways are right, norrow and straight. Nobody listens nowdays to sane things . Any way if students cut on tutions will be better for parents.
Continued next page

Re: # 68

Massadi Mian:

Global pecking order was not Allah given. Therefore, please do not use your irrelevant adjectives like ``illiterate` for people who have an alternative views to yours.

The pecking order has been created through the use of knowledge and human mind. ``In Knowledge lies the power`` is the paradigm that has been followed by the majority of humans living on this world. The paradigm ``In Islam Lies the power``, or ``In Christianity lies the power``, for that matter ``In religion lies the power`` is long over. You might consider applying your knowledge to prepare yourself and those who believe in you for the knowledge society.

The ``illiterate`` doctor writes <<< The prosperity or poverty of nations, and of individuals, has become contingent upon their ability to understand and control science >>>

The poverty and prosperity of nations has more to do with their position in the global pecking order than any ``science``. Science has become one of several whores in the ``harem`` of the power elite. It is also amazing to note that the good ``illiterate`` doctor regards humanities as having nothing to do with science, as such he is quite oblivious of the method of science and quite dogmatic in what he considers science. Why science fails in Pakistan is because regardless of mastery it has failed to produce results in Pakistan and hense, as the SCIENCE of humanities would correctly predict, people lose interest and get discouraged when faced with multiple failure, no doubt it would get de-valued in a social structure that has been forced into dependant development and where science fails because the great powers see no benefit in lesser people developing that mindset or the resulting benefits......Doctor, get an education rather than trying to resurrect the ``science`` of the past without understanding the world of the present....

...here is an interesting science project going on in pakistan.........

http://sse.lums.edu.pk/

#71 by ahmedmadani

The wall is good for Pakistan. Iran is preparing for war, and it might spread into Pakistani Baluchistan if there`s no wall.

tehsin, you idiot !

`` Even today go to any good American University and attend a philosophy, history, political science, art or anthropology class and you will find that the class is full of Americans, but go to a calculus, physics, chemistry or natural sciences class and you will see them disproportionately filled with Muslims from Arab and non Arab countries. ``

..... first of all, for every muslim in these classes there are at least 15 indians and twenty chinks and you will neve find an african american in a topology or number theory class -they are all in cornell west`s class on how to fry a turkey without setting your house on fire ........

....... why ? ........ here is how it works, and i will explain it to you just one time: a typical calc 101 class at a major university starts out with over 500 students with students sitting on the floor and rolling in the aisles ....... after the first test, there are about 300 left and after mid-term you are lucky if there are a hundred ....... out of the hundred, ten commit suicide because they realize they are not as smart as their parents led them to believe and another forty take up sociology, history, greek mythology and philosophy so that they can make easy a`s and drink more beer which, after all, is the main purpose of going to college and you cannot graduate unless you consume 400 gallons over the 4 years - at places like arizona state the requirement is 600 gallons ........ and don`t let your daughter fool you - it is the same at small liberal arts colleges ........ my daughter claims she goes to the `geekiest` school in the world and yet evertime i go to visit her i find the trash cans full of vodka bottles (yes, i check!) ......

....... anyway, back to the subject ........calculus, physics and chemistry sciences are `weed-out` classes - i was told that on my first day on the job as a math ta when i complained about having to grade fifty tests - sure enough, by the end of the semester i was grading only ten or so .......... those who flunk out - four out of five - go on to read utterly useless subjects like history and sociology and end up like masadi mian, dick cheney, and my favourite bartender and philosopher ............ unfortunately these flunkies go on to become politicians and actors and rule the world or , more alarmingly, pour your drinks .....................

...... and, in case you didn`t notice, the nerdy science students from india and china are kicking the history-reading american posteriors to the point that even george bush is learning to do long division ...........

masadi re iLog:

You have made the correct decision. Godspeed to you Sir.

#75

[everytime i go to visit her i find the trash cans full of vodka bottles (yes, i check!)]

Always looking for free booze, aren`t you?

Re: # 78

zeemax,

..... bjkumar`s remark was funny, yours was crude as usual .......

#77 by bjkumar

[everytime i go to visit her i find the trash cans full of vodka bottles (yes, i check!)]

Sure. Underneath a pile of used condoms i.e. ...

#79 by hamidm2

Sorry .. but the truth is usually not that palatable ...

But Hamidm, to change the unpalatable subject and on another point, perhaps you know that the best mathematical and IT talent is neither with Chinese nor the hinjus nor anywhere in the USA. It is in Romania and the Czech Republic .. and neighbouring regions.

dear Pervez
it will be said science has been taught well,when the science pupil is made to master ``facts``, in a proper and correct way. facts must never suffer change even in a barely tangible measure. when this accuracy is ingrained in the science scholar, he will not need any religious, moral or SCIENCE sermon to tell him facts must never be changed deliberately, for the forces of caste, creed or greed.

Those humanities
Management
And Lawyers are calling the shots
while the scientist are like coolies working for either ministers
or at ther mercy of secretaries of Bush (non scientist)

tehsin, you ignorant slut !

here is the difference between `reading` history and studying something useful ...... note that i don`t use the term `studying history` because `study` means `application of the mind to the acquisition of knowledge, as by reading, investigation, or reflection` and things like historyand sociology do not require a mind, period ................. as a matter of fact, it is a mindless pastime for lazy rich kids in new england and an indoctrination tool for suicidal madrassa students in the muslim lands .............

anyway, here is the difference :

the guy who ran his great-grandpa`s business into the ground :Bill attended The Hotchkiss School in Connecticut and went on to graduate from Princeton University in 1979, having majored in history and served as president of The Ivy Club. In 1984 he received an S.M. in Management (equivalent to an M.B.A.) as a Sloan Fellow from the MIT Sloan School of Management.

the guy who he hired to try and save the company: Mulally graduated from the University of Kansas in 1969 with Bachelor of Science and Master of Science degrees in aeronautical and astronautical engineering. He also received a Master`s degree in Management (S.M.) as a Sloan Fellow from the MIT Sloan School of Management in 1982.

................ see the difference ?............ i have highlighted it for your convenience ......

I learned alphabets, and counting at the same time, and then tables (we of course called it pahade) up to 25. We are made to use fingers to calculate like abacus - with being told - abacus was in your hand, then we are made to graduate to mental math. To take exam in mental math we had to stand on the chair read the paper on the desktop from at least four feet high. We were allowed to come down only to write the answer. I know my daughters could not understand the abacus on your fingers, tables beyond 10 were tough, mental calculation is impossible. Calculating square roots they have never heard. These girls did go to Ivy leagues, which only show why Indian and Chinese students can outperform. Chinese students have even more task; they must in addition learn at least 1,500 Chinese characters by the time they reach middle school.

Such approach gives quick thinking and fast reasoning. I would still say that this approach should be followed in teach math at primary school level. It lays very strong foundation.
Science teaching was more theoretical and less experimental and verification. I suppose due to funding of science. I really liked the project oriented approach to science teaching in the private school my daughters studied. They will do a project bring back results, which would then be discussed and laws of physics, chemistry that were used in the project explained and discussed. This approach in middle and high school level, and in such private schools with two student doing it with the teacher who is responsible for no more than 10 students indeed made learning fun and absorption of concept very high. These methodologies that students learn are with them for the rest of their lives.

I got involved with my daughters Calculus teacher for a short time, and with my daughter. I explained and showed her that algebra is about abstraction and representation, geometry is logic that is proven through lines, triangles, squares and circles, and trigonometry is about right angle triangle, statistics is mathematics of large group of numbers, and finally differential calculus is about change and motion. She started excelling in math. This was a four year process. I found out what each of these is after the learning process through deduction, but when I explained it to her first, and then worked with her. I found this induction approach very helpful, especially teaching math to girls, they take longer to figure out a pattern out of details, but if they are explained the pattern they can apply it to many details faster than boys. I have observed it among my nieces and nephews trained here or in India.

My daughters attended Japanese Kumon classes. These classes to teach math are even stricter. Until a student gets it right 100%, she does not move to the next level. I was amazed that some high school kids, struggling to get primary school math concepts and their application correct 100% of the time.
Again these are basics of science and mathematics, and must be taught like ``tere baap or ammi ki tarah.”

Correct me if I am wrong, I think another challenge Pakistan faces, is the closeness of Islamic mind, if there is something like it. This mind is repeatedly told to reject many things as being non-Muslim (musalman ka bachcha ban), and fear (khuda ka khauf). I know these two being repeated countless time each day to the very bright son in the Pakistani family. They shared the house with me when I was student in England. It was such a surprise to me and my other friend who also lived in the house, as neither his nor my family ever using such ``reject`` and ``fear`` approach.