Fight Hudood, Protect Women

Re: # 199 abu_safman I would be careful with my friend Wheel-o-Time. A very good logician, and man with clear mind no cobwebs. Often, though he is known to be loaded, and what is simple is very complex indeed.

Your bigoted statement, or preamble, show your contorted mind, distorted beyond the wildest imaginations of the people here.

Your statement could of course start with `` why cannot all muslim be as rational as him.....``.....now that would be so seriously below the belt that it would extreemely painful.

Ratonal thought requires you to think of people as human beings, and not associate them with a tag (apart from a name that is). That you do otherwise, indicates a lack of rationality on your part.

Or as BJKumar sayeth Kaal EATS vegetables - especially around here - with a LOT of relish!

Re: # 204

Abassi Sahib, please give a little more credit to Pakistanis. I don’t think that they care what other people believe in or practice. Do you think that Pakistanis have that much free time on their hand that they need to classify people’s beliefs? Only a handful of piggish thugs (aka Molvis) have made classifying people into one category or another. An average Pakistani is happy with Ahmadis being Ahmadis and could care less how one worships or not, and how many prophests one believes in. It’s only the jokers that came from one stupid place (Deoband) that have made Islam their business. An average Pakistani is more worried about the price of medicine than the status of some dead dude.

Sunni Brigade vs Ahmedi defenders

Gentlemen we need to set some sort of basis, ground rules for your arguments. This is basic civics or constitutional basis for any republic. Democracy means majority rule, but it can degenerate into mob rule – the founders of Republicanism realized this over 2000 years ago and adopted appropriate measures against such an eventuality.

Lets say it passes a law that all Ahmadis are hereby required to convert to Sunni wahabbism and those who don’t will be expelled to Raiwind. What is there to prevent them from implementing such an outrage. It is the constitution which has to prevent this from happening whereby laws are made by such an assembly which violate the rights of minorities, we have the constitution to protect them. The Constitution would have clauses like no law can be passed which violates freedom of religion. The Supreme Court thus becomes the arbiter, the protector of the constitution. For it to effectively carry out this function it has to have the prestige, the moral authority, the support of the media and all other institutions of government who would not allow either the legislature or the executive to ever ignore this authority.

The problem in Pakistan has always been and continues to remain:

- Supreme Court does not have the power to fulfill its responsibility. The minute the interest of the President is threatened they better pack their bags. This is prevented in America by life time tenure for Supreme Court justices.
- Constitution is suspended, amended, abrogated – so we don’t know which side is up.

Lastly though, if they had to declare Ahmadi as non Muslim, they have to clearly define what a Muslim is according to the legislature (I don’t know if they ever did that).

#202 Yaar, it is a little different from the way you understood it.

Kaal EATS vegetables - especially around here - with a LOT of relish!

Hamidm2 does too - except he can not hold back his loud, satisfied smacking sounds!

Different styles, that`s all.

Re: # 200
Hmm..vegetables ehh...well hamidm will try anything at this point to get some sanity..but i won`t hold my breath..budha buhatt dheett hayy!

hamidm: One correction to your post: the farhat hashmi pagan rituals are attended by the burqa clad goats of jamaat-e-islami that demonstrate for the continued oppression via hadood laws of women from poor families. not women like asma jehangir who fight against this oppression against overwhelming odds (the government, the mullahs, the paindoo babus).

While it is sadly true that the books of mullah maudoodi and bokhari, i am not interested in selling any ideas myself (if i was, i wouldnt waste time on website with a tiny membership of the usual suspects). historical currents will defeat them more surely than any amount of arguments or discussions.

Thus: maudoodi and bokhari may have defeated the Quran by replacing the latters message with their own - but they cannot defeat the tides of history. Rising literacy rates and influences from the outside world will defeat maudoodism and bokhariism just as surely as the rising sun chases dracula back into the hole he crept out of. So, 20 years from now you can look back and say: ``Verily, tahmed spake the truth!!!`` :-)

#199

Yaar, the matter has been crystal clear for a while! It is because he is a ``vegetarian``!

Except for extremely rare occasions, of course! :)

Re: # 198

Why can`t all hindus be as rational as him, come to think of it world would be a better place if most humans were of his mindset. Thank you Good Sir!

Bulleya

There are very few religious systems wherein the words of one or a few individuals have the force of law (papacy perhaps), or where some members supposedly carry greater divine importance than others (brahminism perhaps, and of course, Sufism which is lilttle more than a form of Hinduism with Arabic labeling).

In interpreting their religion, Muslims appear to be fairly normal people. Many listen to religious scholars because they believe that to be the rational, more efficient approach to understading religious texts. Many others assign a halo effect to religious scholars and see something divine about them. Those who politically disagree with the interpretations of these scholars question the judgement of those who listen to the latter. All fairly commonplace.

If there is anything unusually wrong with Muslims, then I fail to see it.

samar1982

Don`t know if there is any misunderstanding or not, but Ballukhan is an Indian, and a phenomenal one at that. (The only worse faux paux would be to assume nassah ji and faruk to be Pakistanis!)

kaalchakra #193: ``Muslims do not listen to their scholars and maulanas because they believe in some divine religious hierarchy.....``

....actually many do.....many are unaware of the concepts of islam and think that certain individuals actually do have authorities to pass fatwas etc......

``They give the opinions of these scholars greater weightage because the latter focus on and devote their entire lives to learning about and from the Quran, Muhammad, and his companions.``

....as i said earlier, there is nothing wrong with giving someone`s opinion importance.....anyone who wants to do so, can go ahead and do so......what i am stating is that no one`s opinion is binding......at least according to islam........

for example, if someone likes listening to me and thinks i am some sort of a scholar on islam, they can do so till pigs fly.....they can become my disciple, etc..........however islam does not allow my opinion to be binding on anyone......if someone voluntarily wants to accept it, well and good........but anyone can voluntarily reject it also........

`` unless the Quran itself mandates that irrespective of age, education, or mental and moral history, every Muslim`s individual understanding of the book remains and must be accepted by others as equally valid.``

...quran does not mandate this........however, the quran does not mandate the opposite either......i.e. such and such individual has an authority to interpret and enforce his/her interpretations of the quran on others.........

...according to islam, no one`s interpretations of the quran are law......none can be forced onto others.......islam does not describe any such mechanism..........

#185#ballukhan

Aaina hata loge to kya chehra bhi badal jaega ?
Aankhon se chhup jaega magar dil main nazar Aaega

Kis-kis ko bhagaoge mian? Hoodbhai ko, Irfan Husain ko, Najam Sethi ko, Asma bee ko...? Kis-kis ko?

Kya Pak par aapko bilkul rahem naheen aata?

Still, I think, it is futile to fight just against Hudood Law. Pakis must immediately start a revolutionary struggle for complete overhaul of the constitution incorporating equality, democracy and secularism as its fundamental principles. Religion, like a wolf, will eat your country away, thanks to the stinking wounds inflicted by the terrorists.

Samar

Re: # 190
Yes the women that should be respected are hamidm`s daughters who share ``Ice Cream`` with random boys in the privacy of their cars on prom nite, which he is very proud of. Really barayy mian no one is going to take away your visit visa if u try to grow some respect but then again it might be just a tad late for that.

Bulleya

Are you being fair to Muslims? Muslims do not listen to their scholars and maulanas because they believe in some divine religious hierarchy.

They give the opinions of these scholars greater weightage because the latter focus on and devote their entire lives to learning about and from the Quran, Muhammad, and his companions.

That is the only logical thing to do, unless the Quran itself mandates that irrespective of age, education, or mental and moral history, every Muslim`s individual understanding of the book remains and must be accepted by others as equally valid.

#191 why is god so interested about sex amongst two consenting adults? What are the Hudood laws for a boy that was raped by 6 horny pathans. Does the boy also needs to produce male witnesses or does the deepened hole in his anus is good enough.
Why do women have to produce 4 witnesses. I can only imagine if one the four happens to be a pathan blind cleric, that mistakes the woman for a boys behind. I am sure Allah the merciful has some provisions in the appendix of Quran and Hadith-tul-Jahalia.

Urstruly, thank you for pointing out the verse. However, you are again proving my point by using stoning as an example. First of all the verse you have provided is (in my opinion) for people engaged in fornacation on a cointinous or habitual basis. For others, Allah also said

``And upon those of your women who commit fornication, call in as witnesses four people among yourselves to testify over them; if they testify [to their ill-ways], confine them to their homes till death overtakes them or God formulates another way for them. (4:15).

So there might be different punishments based on other factors. As far as stoning is concerned, it is nowhere in Quran as you have mentioned yourself and once again, if it is not in Quran then please make sure that you use the word hadith and make sure that people know thee difference.
Abu sahab, the reason why I completely ignore Ahadith is not because I dont respect Huzoor(PBUH). As a matter of fact I respect him more than anything. However, I have seen people get away from true Islam because they start holding these ahadith more important than the word of Allah. For example, I have seen people argue over how to perform vuzu, when in Quran, the way is present (yes in Quran - it is given). So people should not care whether the water has to flow over the ears etc but just read Quran and follow it. Inshallah you will get all your answers. You also point to the people who have done PHDs on this subject. Do you think they are better muslims then you and me just because they read works from other people like them. I truly believe that if you and I read Quran (I am certainly NOT implying that you don`t) we will understand our religion as good as (if not better than) those so-called scholars.
To prove my point, look at all these mullahs who show that they know more about Islam than anyone. Have you ever seen anyone who does not have a beard? Where in Quran does it say that you have to have a beard to be a good muslim. They look at every clean shaved person with disdain. Now isn`t it because they forget what the Quran teaches them about equlity and love,

``O mankind! We created you from a single soul, male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may come to know one another. Truly, the most honored of you in God`s sight is the greatest of you in piety. God is All-Knowing, All Aware (49:13) ``

but rather hold other WEAK sayings more important like

(1) Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) said ``I have no connection with one who shaves, shouts and tears his clothing eg. in grief or affication.``
- Reported by Abu Darda (R.A.) in Muslim, Hadith no. 501

Now can you imagine Huzoor who never uttered a bad word for anyone even when he was being humiliated and tortured would say something like this.

This is what I mean when I say the mullahs have no position in our lives and people should start reading Quran rather than asking these mullahs questions.