Fight Hudood, Protect Women

Re #139 & 144,
I do realize that, given the condition of the ummah, any democracy,secular or religious will quickly deteriorate into something worse.

But for the future, religious democracy is just as much as an option as secular democracy.

The parliament doesn`t derive its authority from a religious text. It comes from the Constitution, which is a contract among all comunities, muslim & non-muslim.

Re: # 95

So you mean `Taazir` is a punishment under the secular law. But why should one be punished at all when Islamic (supposed to be God`s) law does not hold one guilty? Does not Quranic Allah hold those as `Faasiqeen`, `Munaafiqeen` and what not who judge people under the laws other than those laid down by Him?

Re #144:

You started out by declaring Ahamdis as “equal citizens”. Now that your real views have become clear, you are telling me to “forget about Pakistan”. This switch in your tone is very revealing … it says a lot about your hypocrisy.

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Moving on ...

I highlighted parallels between your position and that of kuffar in Mecca (posts #137, 141) … based on what you wrote. You may call it laughable, but this parallel remains obvious.

Regarding prophethood: I’ve based my views on Quran and ahadith. You are entitled to your view ... it’s alright by me. I fail to see your point here.

I’d be a Bahai if I wanted to be one. However my faith rests with Quran and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). I am not sure why this is a problem for you.

You have rambled on and on ... unable to articulate your position. Think through your views before getting too excited.

+++

This is besides the point, but since you raised the issue - You are misinformed about Mirza Sahib and Ahmadi-Muslims. I wonder where you are getting your information from. Along the same lines, there are plenty of web-sites that spew hatred against Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and Muslims. Be careful about what you read and believe.

Re: # 99

Since you are charging certain people of rape without producing four witnesses do not you youself become guilty of `Qazf` under the Hadood Laws?

abu_safwaan #101 i agree fully with what you say, and your points concerning the socio-economic issues are very well made, and the concluding para. provides the solution to all thes problems succinctly: If we can have free and fair elections then parliament can debate and decide what form of hudood or lack of it, it wants.

No man, or group of men, can claim to have special knowledge of what God wants (and those that do for any reason are vehemently condemned in the Quran), or to have special concern for the Supreme National Interest.

While providing the broader picture quite eloquently, I dont think your post answers the specific question I had, so let me attempt an answer: I think the maulvis are opposing removal of the Hadood Ordinance because this Ordinance takes away one pillar on which a formal Priesthood gains a constitutional share in power in the same way as the military has managed (so far successfully) to get a constitutional share in power.

Never mind that a priesthood is abhorent in the Quran, which reserves its most resounding condemnation of anyone with pretensions to having special knowledge in religious matters. Never mind that a priesthood turns Pakistanis into a slave nation, lacking the power to amend laws that people around the world now possess. Never mind that tens of thousands of women from poor families have been ravaged and imprisoned under the guise of these laws. This is what makes the hadood ordinance an insult to islam and a slap on the face of the people of Pakistan.

Urstruly: Thanks for taking the time to try and answer the simple question I had. My question was much more basic than what you seemed to have in mind, and I hope the above attempt at answering it will give you a better idea of what I mean.

Re: # 109

``and let a party of believers witness their chastisement``.

May be the same people who witnessed them, the fuckers, enjoy their operation? That presence perhaps did not require any orders?
Btw, is watching zinna in operation, `Maaroof` or `Nahi`, in Quranic terms?

Tradition says a Qazi had punished a witness of Zinna by ordering gorging out of his eyes as he failed to act on `Amr-bil-Maaroof` while watching zinna in all its manifestations and penetrations.

... teshah, you are asking very blunt questions. It must be making him blush.

Remember, Urstruly is the man who keeps his gaze lowered in order to avoid evil. Indeed he makes the ummah proud ...

abu_safwan #124: ``What urstruly is saying that once some injunction becomes a law of the land and according to him there can be a consensus amongst the great majority of pakistan than issues can be resolved. It all comes back to giving people the right to decide what they want for themselves. Why can`t we all agree on this basic principle?``

......you are mixing two things......i am not talking about laws of the land.....i am talking about religious interpretations.......who has a right to do them.....and do others have a right to reject them.......

......if something becomes a law of the land, it is followed due to its legal context, not due to its religious context......if a country`s population agrees that such and such should be a punishment for rape, that is fine........that is their business.........however, if taqi usmani says that such and such should be the punishment, because he feels he has higher religiouss authority, then according to islam at least, that is not allowed........

......if people want a quran-based society then the way to do so is to allow every citizen to interpret the quran and vote on its interpretation and then make the laws........in which taqi usmani`s views would be equivalent to yours and mine........the correct way is not to form a council of islamic ideology of a few individuals or a shariah court of a few individuals and then assume their injunctions and interpretations of the quran are final.......

.........in any society the job of the court is to apply the laws created and accepted by the society and passed through its representatives........it is not the job of the courts to come of with the religious laws or to apply the laws that a handful of, ``scholars`` have agreed upon.........

......that is my whole point...........so in terms of religious interpretations, taqi usmani and anyone else has one vote, as do you and i.........as should any, ``scholar`` - fake, real or otherwise.......

kaalchakra #128: ``in other words, telling people that they have a direct and unfettered link to God may not be much better, in practical terms, than asking them to listen to scholars/mullahs``

...i am not debating what is correct or incorrect in general.......

i am simply debating and pointing out what islam dictates to be correct and incorrect, in terms of interpreting the quran........islam implements, in fact demands, a direct link of a muslim with God......it completely removes the clergy as a go between.......in fact, in islam there is no clergy....no religious hierarchy and no church, i.e. no mosque...........mosques in islam are more community centers than anything else, which include(d) lodging, prayers, discussions etc......

and any muslim can lead the largest congregation of prayers......if tomorrow you become a muslim, according to islam, you can go lead the prayers in mecca`s holiest mosque, a second after converting........you need not get a fatwa from anyone........

........the above is what islam states......it maybe right, it maybe wrong.......it is for some people and not for others.......that is a different debate.......but, within islam, no one muslim`s word creates any more weight than any other`s........

the above is also why, despite all their efforts, the clergy in islam has never been able to establish power at the levels that clergies in various other religions were able to do......i.e. any muslim can and is supposed to have a direct link with God..........no need to go through what urstruly says or what taqi usmani or anyone else says.........

have you ever seen a pig in a mosque ?

......... i don`t think it is possible for a woman to be a practicing muslim and then turn around and ask for eqaul rights - it is almost like being a pig and asking to be let into a mosque ....... i know, i know - the poor pig cannot help it if he has a cloven hoof and, besides, i don`t think he wants to go near a mullah with a yellow towel on his head who smells worse than his cousin porky ......... maybe i should have said it is like insisting on being an ahmedi - like sattar mian - and then insisting on being treated like a human being in an islamic country .......

this is what happens when men start wearing briefs instead of boxers


..... i just can`t believe this nonsense about women and equal rights ! ........do you think these women asked for equal rights and other such nonsense ? ....... if they had they would have been soundly slapped and sent to bed without any pudding :

Khadijah
Sawda
Aisha
Hafsa
Zaynab
Umm Salama
Zaynab bint Jahsh
Juwayriya
Ramlah
Safiyya
Maymuna
Maria

......... that`s when men were men and the sheep ran scared

khurram sahib

You sound more reasonable than most of the interactors. Let me ask you a simple question.

Do you think we should have hudood ordinance in Pakistan? If yes , why?
If, no why? Thanks


[[#117 by Kulharee on March 8, 2007 1:20pm PT
Re: # 114

Truly Sahib, with all due respect, that’s exactly the point I was also trying to raise. Quran is a metaphysically written guide for muslims (according to our beliefs, a word of God) and each and every verse needs to be taken in the context it was revealed (according to my Islamic teaching). What has gone on is that it has been given in the hands of Jahil Molvis that have twisted and turned into whatever form that suits them. That’s all. What you accuse me of doing is what is being practiced pretty much as a standrad operating procedure by your Molvis.]]

Kulharee sahib
You have to decide whether you are Non Muslim mirzaii or Muslim? Look @ this Hypocrisy in your post here........

Plus how will you protect Pakisni women`s honor , when you yourself have abused me online and still is abusing daily on Un plugged?

Aren`t you the same Kulharee who insults our last Prophet(PBUH) on daily basis along with your best Mirzaii friend Verizon? Aren`t you the same kulharee who uses extremely derogatory words for our Prophet(PBUH) on un plugged?

Aren`t you the same Kulharee who insults Quranic Verses daily on Un Plugged?

And to be a Muslim you have to abide by the following.

[[1:-Muslim believes and respects Prophet Mohd(PBUH). He/she will never ever utter any word of disrespect or any derogatory word or insults for HIM(PBUH).

2:-Muslim believes Prophet Mohd(PBUH) as the last prophet of all.

3:-Muslim if confused about some issue will always try to resolve it with the help of Quran and with the help of VALID hadiths( a guidance from our Prophet(PBUH), NULLIFYING invalid hadiths to clear all chaos.

4:-Muslim is free to ask questions about Quran , about Islam`s teachings and also about Prophet(PBUH)`s ways of life WITHOUT disrespecting or insulting Prophet(PBUH)`s personal life and HIS ways.

5:-There is a MAJOR difference between being INQUISITIVE maintaining decency, manners and certain class
AND
6:-being KNIVING , BLASPHEMOUS, PROFANE, ill mannered, abuser, devilish, evilish, INDECENT, rude, crude, back stabber, shameless, without feeling remorse for one`s actions, without feeling guilt for name calling , with out feeling guilt with dirty language, without feeling respect for anything in this world.

Kulharee sahib you and your best friend verizon.......

You are not Muslim, you are Mirzai. Why? b/c you have NULLIFIED #1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

You have certainly showed # 6 online behavior along with your other Mirzai brothers as your support group to INSULT our Prophet(PBUH) by calling HIM(PBUH) names, by showing HIS cartoons, by disrespecting HIS actions, by using extremely DEROGATORY words for our Prophet(PBUH) ,

You and your supporting Non-Muslim Mirzais are unable to interact without insulting other interactors. You and your support group harass others whoever does not agree with your POV`s.

Well, you and your support groups have called me whore, bitch, shit, prostitute, how much money I will take to meet you guys in NYC.

Honestly, such abuse did not hurt me at all. That showed your disturbed state of mind.

But, yes when you insult my Prophet(PBUH) and commit BLASPHEMY THAT hurts a lot. I wish the kind of GARBAGE you spread online come back exactly on your life and face...................Wait and see.......
As you sow so shall you reap , What you do that comes back to you.............................
what goes around , comes around.

I have always supported mirzais genuinely online and offline. Even here on chowk I have never insulted your prophet(Mirza Gulam A) and always took a lead for their support, for their recognition as a minority group.
While you, mirzais were busy calling me names, insulting my Prophet(PBUH), I never crossed my limits and never ever insulted your Prophet.

You have shown your real colors by insulting our Prophet(PBUH) and now coming up all clean like Chameleons with new colors.

You have shown extremely narrow minded , pea minded approach towards committing this extremely derogatory act of blasphemy against our Prophet(PBUH)...............

I never QUESTIONED Mirza Gulam Ahmed`s teachings. B/c I do believe with all the honesty of my heart that everyone has the right to adopt and practice one`s own choice of beliefs without insulting other`s beliefs.

I never INSULTED YOUR Prophet and never committed blasphemy even in my pure thoughts. I rather prayed for your forgiveness and for your chaotic mental health from God(Almighty) to guide you.

I am a truly modern, open minded, open hearted person who respect other`s religious figures , who doesn`t

And, now you are coming all clean and innocent...........Wow!!!

I will not lower down myself to your level, but, I will always stand up for true belief, for the respect of my Prophet(PBUH)...................

InshAllaH ]]]]


Kulharee sahib

You are now coming up all clean....wow...
Hypocrisy .....

kulharee # 120

There is no question of Shia and sunni here. Hudood ordinance is made by some convoluted minds ..........

You being non muslim Mirzaii are trying to divert this whole topic in to shia and sunni sects......Very cruel

All shias and sunnis are Muslims and they are together in this struggle again hudood ordinance. All my shia relatives and shia family friends are struggling along with sunnis to get rid of this Hudood ordinance.

[[[Now these abusive chowk mirzaiis are using another tactics of dividing sunnis and shias by calling sunnis as equivalent to mirzais and secluding shiaas.

Well, I won`t let you abusive chowk mirzaais play this card of divide and rule.

Let me make it very very clear on this open forum.............

Shias and Sunnis are both Muslims. And I do not believe in any sect in Islam, neither did our Prophet(PBUH) divide Muslims in to sunnis or shias, HE(PBUH) only called them Muslims.

So, Do not come up with this new dirty trick to segregate Muslims..........]]]

This is what happens when a good, shiny, protinized and vitaminized hair is split! It begins appearing like Bhootni`s hair.

Where there is no equality between men, you are discussing fair treatment for women. This is called mock theatre. Thoroughly nonsense but comical posts. Really, Pak society has become such an entertainment that the world finds it impossible to bypass. At least the Arab world and Iranians are openly obscurantist societies, so don`t look clownish and absurd.

First try to replace your constitution with some secular one (at least for names of Arab/persian origin) then talk about Hudood law. Perhaps you won`t find anything to write about then.

Samar

#93 by Urstruly

Well every article, every book that I have come across mentions abolition of slavery and the abolitionist movement as one of the main reasons for the civil war. The North was not slave free, but abolished slavery during the previous 50 years, and it was in New York that the largest number of slaves were emancipated. But lets not quibble about that. Do you think that the creation of Liberia as an independent state for the settlement of ex slaves which occurred in the 1820s by whites was insignificant?

The abolitionists felt very strongly that not only was slavery bad, inhuman and degrading to the slave, but it was equally bad for the slave owner and the whole society in general. Some advocated repatriation while others wanted emancipation.

“In one of the most celebrated passages in Democracy in America Tocqueville contrasted the two sections:

`. . . this truth [of the superiority of free labor] was most satisfactorily demonstrated when civilization reached the banks of the Ohio. The stream that the Indians had distinguished by the name of Ohio, or the Beautiful River, waters one of the most magnificent valleys which have ever been made the abode of man. Undulating lands extend upon both shores of the Ohio, whose soil affords inexhaustible treasures to the laborer; on either bank the air is equally wholesome and the climate mild, and each of them forms the extreme frontier of a vast state: that which follows the numerous windings of the Ohio upon the left is called Kentucky; that upon the right bears the name of the river. These two states differ only in a single respect: Kentucky has admitted slavery, but the state of Ohio has prohibited the existence of slaves within its borders. Thus the traveler who floats down the current of the Ohio to the spot where that river falls into the Mississippi may be said to sail between liberty and servitude; and a transient inspection of surrounding objects will convince him which of the two is more favorable to humanity.
Upon the left bank of the stream the population is sparse; from time to time one descries a troop of slaves loitering in the half-deserted fields; the primeval forest reappears at every turn; society seems to be asleep, man to be idle, and nature alone offers a scene of activity and life.
From the right bank, on the contrary, a confused hum is heard, which proclaims afar the presence of industry; the fields are covered with abundant harvests; the elegance of the dwellings announces the taste and activity of the laborers; and man appears to be in the enjoyment of that wealth and contentment which is the reward of labor.`

However overstated the contrast, however mistaken in detail, Tocqueville`s discussion offers several crucial insights. One is that the effect of slavery upon the master was as profound as upon the slave. Another is that the market more profoundly shaped the white Northerner than his southern counterpart:

`The influence of slavery . . . affects the character of the master and imparts a peculiar tendency to his ideas and tastes. Upon both banks of the Ohio the character of the inhabitants is enterprising and energetic, but this vigor is very differently exercised in the two states. The white inhabitant of Ohio, obliged to subsist by his own exertions, regards temporal prosperity as the chief aim of his existence; and as the country which he occupies presents inexhaustible resources to his industry, and ever varying lures to his activity, his acquisitive ardor surpasses the ordinary limits of human cupidity: he is tormented by the desire of wealth, and he boldly enters upon every path that fortune opens to him; he becomes a sailor, a pioneer, an artisan, or a cultivator with the same indifference, and supports with equal constancy the fatigues and the dangers incidental to these various professions; the resources of his intelligence are astonishing, and his avidity in the pursuit of gain amounts to a species of heroism.
But the Kentuckian scorns not only labor but all the undertakings that labor promotes; as he lives in an idle independence, his tastes are those of an idle man; money has lost a portion of its value in his eyes; he covets wealth much less than pleasure and excitement; and the energy which his neighbor devotes to gain turns with him to a passionate love of field sports and military exercises; he delights in violent bodily exertion, he is familiar with the use of arms, and is accustomed from a very early age to expose his life in single combat. Thus slavery prevents the whites not only from becoming opulent, but even from desiring to become so.`

Manto writes <<< so who died and made you the judge of what is good and what is bad for women? I find this a very ironical statement indeed. Yes religion is focus here, abuse of religion and support of that abuse by people like you >>>

A typical illiterate response that I had expected from one more interested in ``hero worship`` than human rights or social causes. Judges of what is good and bad are not made, it is not a question of authority but of the facts, of public issues and you don`t need to know more than high school math to determine what is affecting society. Regarding my ``abuse`` of religion, your mullah friends say the same when I ask them to rationally consider the Quran and understand it using the objective world, otherwise no book, revelation or otherwise can offer them any guidance as to the state of reality and their condition. You, just like them want to fight ghosts and distract using nonsense issues that are mere tools to obfuscate the larger issues that you and the mullah in your mutual illiteracy have no clue about...